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Completing original work

brain enclosed in flesh

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I wasn't sure if this was the right section to post this in, but I couldn't think of a better place...

I imagine this will resonate with most of you-

I finished the rough draft of my novel over a year ago. I have been rewriting it for the past year. I was able to be uncharacteristically self-disciplined in this process until about six months ago; since then I have been characteristically undisciplined.

I don't know how to finish this damn thing. I suck at organizing, linking things into a logical chain of events, etc. Not only do I suck at it, I find it incredibly tedious and uninspiring.

I need a heaping dump truck full of Te to complete this bad boy, and I don't know where to get it. So my question: If any of you have succeeded at completing something, especially a big project, how in the hell did you surmount your P nature to do it?
 

Red Mage

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The answer is so simple it's scary. According to Socionics, Ti is also a J function. In that system, INTPs are known as INTjs. This is because they have dominant Ti, whereas INTJs (known as INTps) have dominant Ni so they are Ps.

In short, you just need to embrace your dominant Ti's J-like qualities and overcome your subordinate Ne's Pness. To do this, you just have to realize you're actually a j (lowercase) and not a P (uppercase).
 

brain enclosed in flesh

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all right, I'm a j! I'd better go so I can be all j now- time's awastin'. jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj

j!
 

snowqueen

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I need a heaping dump truck full of Te to complete this bad boy, and I don't know where to get it. So my question: If any of you have succeeded at completing something, especially a big project, how in the hell did you surmount your P nature to do it?

Get someone else involved.

That's what I do - someone you agree to send stuff to - basically creating externally driven deadlines.
 

Kuu

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systematic thought? capacity to break down complex issues into smaller chunks?


I suffer from this issue indeed. I'm kinda j-dead about it :). I always have to piggyback on some INTJ or such...

Getting an external deadline is tricky. The person must constantly remind you about it, but not naggingly, but enthusiastically. So that you actually feel like doing it, to share it with this person. This person must also be immune to your procrastinator lies and excuses, since Pness is never to go down without a fight.

IF you do manage to get that arrangement going, it works quite nicely
 

Hawkeye

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Okay, but who? How do I find someone?

Do you not know a single soul?

To be honest any external input I get when dealing with projects be it constructive or not always sparks ideas off in my head.

You could even ask one of us.
 

Android

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Find somebody you trust, or pay somebody.. there are some companies out there that will review and critique works for people, but it can be expensive (and I don't know how much I'd trust them - would take some research). You can also sometimes audit a college creative writing course and introduce a chapter a week (or whatever the class project schedule is) for peer review from the class. There are also a lot of writers workshops out there where you can present your work for peer review. I prefer to have various kinds of people review my work. Musicians sometimes offer amazing insights on written works for me.. but they aren't the best for a full review of the work. I prefer to have other writers look at my work for structural problems, grammar/spelling, etc. Reciprocity will probably be required (money or time), in order to engage somebody in such a daunting task as reviewing a rough piece of work as long as a novel.

Personally, I don't consider a project completed until it's been blasted to bits in the peer review process before being rebuilt. Sometimes that happens more than once.
 

brain enclosed in flesh

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Yes, I know people, but not people that I want to read it necessarily or to give input. I've had friends read other things before and either they blew it off after they said they would or they weren't all that helpful- a one sentence spoken response, or "It's good. I like it!" I'd like impartiality. Besides, I'm looking more for external motivation more than feedback at this point in time, although some feedback would be good as well.

I've done workshops and taken classes. They have never been helpful. I'm not saying that they aren't helpful, but I haven't found one that is yet. And they always seem to be geared toward short stories or poetry, not novels.

My psychiatrist suggested a writing coach. Anyone know anything about that?

And Android, I'm guessing you're a writer? Hello, by the way.
 

Android

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About how I have completed big projects in the past: I have to get very organized at the very start. I make a very detailed outline first.. way past your average outline. The longest piece I've completed is 120 pages.. I started with a 22 or 23 page outline. Since you're already past that I'm not sure it will help you, but maybe you could go back to the start and do something like that.. then you can work out the problems in a more controlled manner without having to worry about the words you use, just that you understand it so you can put it into action later.

And as far as embracing your J or whatever... you are what you are and calling yourself by a different letter doesn't seem like it will change anything. If those J characteristics are there, then they have always been there, and are a part of who you are right now.

And, yeah I'm a writer among other things.
 

sagewolf

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Hmm... try this method. Even if you have your first draft written, it may be no harm to go back and do this: it should be a lot easier to organise and perfect a structure than a finished draft, and since it involves slicing up the plot (into separate character plots). It also gives you specific tasks to have done, so you can impose deadlines on yourself. Also, I am very impressed that you got a first draft done outside NaNo. I usually manage a first chapter if I'm not running to that deadline. :rolleyes:
 

Mud~Eye

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I have no suggestions. I just wanted to say how encouraging it is that you have actually completed a rough draft. I think that is awesome. I have not gotten anywhere near completing a first draft of a short story, let alone a novel. If you don't mind sharing what helped or motivated you to the end of this particular project, I would love to know if what worked for you will work for me. Also, perhaps sharing how you got this far will exercise your Te and your answers will come. I've experienced something like that in other areas of my life. Okay, I guess I had a suggestion, afterall.
 

Concojones

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I finished the rough draft of my novel over a year ago. I have been rewriting it for the past year.
[...]
I find it incredibly tedious and uninspiring.
If I find myself procrastinating, I try to ask myself why. In your case, the task has become boring and long. Not something to look forward to. So, you'll have to change it into something more varied and shorter. Shorter alone works because huge intensity is a form of variety, it's fun. So how about a day or two?

It's a technique I came up with as a kid and I still use it all the time. By nature, I'm a perfectionist but easily bored at the same time, which results in dropping my work all the time. So when I notice that, I decide to do the bare minimum in a minimal amount of time and that changes everything for me!

They say action is the saving grace of the INTP. I agree, if that action is really
ACTION ;)

But tell us, what exactly are the steps left to take before it can be published? And how much time does each of them take, if done really really quickly?
 

Mud~Eye

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Shorter alone works because huge intensity is a form of variety, it's fun. So how about a day or two?

It's a technique I came up with as a kid and I still use it all the time. By nature, I'm a perfectionist but easily bored at the same time, which results in dropping my work all the time. So when I notice that, I decide to do the bare minimum in a minimal amount of time and that changes everything for me!

They say action is the saving grace of the INTP. I agree, if that action is really
ACTION ;)

But tell us, what exactly are the steps left to take before it can be published? And how much time does each of them take, if done really really quickly?

Yes, this is excellent advise Brain. I have actually done this. Not with writing, but I've had alot of success completing other things this way, so I can attest to how well it does work. So many people on this forum are very good at spelling out their processes, methods, and reasons. It's impressive, because I have such a difficult time finding language for how and what I do.

Now that we're on this track, something else that I've done, which is similar, but I think a little different, is name a specific goal with a deadline and I'll break that goal down into smaller goals or tasks. For example, "I will have such an such done by the end of the day, or within one hour (whatever). In order to get that accomplished, I'll have to do a, b, and c." This way I can sometimes choose between a "first thing's first" attitude or a method that allows me to do a little within a,b,and c, until one or more get done. I find the later more fun, as I like to switch up what I'm focusing on when I'm actually DOING something. Plotting or spelling out the goals and mini-goals help me to put on a "keep stepping" attitude once I've gotten a little closer to the ultimate goal for that deadline, because I tend to lose focus and start wandering mentally, recreating, or brainstorming, and then there's too much to do, again. Writing down the goals and mini-goals in an outlined format help me perservere. This is a blend of my Mom's list making method (she is ISTJ) and my preference for an outline as a guide.

I use to laugh at my Mom because she'd cross each item off of the list as she completed things. And, she would roll her eyes at me, because I'd just lose my list. I have found, though, that when the task has become an elephant in the room and it must be broken into bite size pieces, crossing it off or checking it off of a page can be encouraging. Also, the outline allows me to note any creative ideas I have, and keep a more realistic sense of how the creative adds and changes will affect my deadline and/or goal meeting. If I don't reach the ultimate goal within the time I've set for myself, then I can at least remain encouraged by all the mini-goals I did reach. I am still closer than I once was. Next day, new list/outline.

I had not thought to employ this for my own writing. How silly, since that was the original purpose of the outline when it was first introduced to me, forever ago. It could work. You can only eat an elephant one bite at a time. The tool you use ultimately doesn't matter as long as it works, right? I happen to use a fork more easily, so that makes sense for me when it's crunch time. (hehe "crunch time").

Good Luck, Brain. Hope you get some info that you can use to help you meet your goal(s). Oh, someone once told me, too, that for them, it worked to offer themselves incentives for each goal they met. You know, do a little something for themselves (their self?) after each mile stone, or put off something they want until they've reached that mile stone. I'd start really small, though, if you've never done it. I have a tendency to "self-punish" and ask a little more of myself than what may be healthy. If you are at all like that, then maybe a candy bar, or a favorite game or something is sacrifice/prize enough to start.
Bye.
 

snowqueen

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I have a method which I use when I lose momentum at work. It's sort of a variation on the to-do list. I have an A4 hardbacked lined notebook and on the right hand side I put today's date and record everything I do. On the left hand side I have my to-do list but I update all the time - partly as I do things obviously, but also partly as things arise from what I am doing in the day. This means that I get a much better picture of what is actually going on and what is taking up my time or what I am using to distract myself. Eventually I seem to get back on track and I can tell when I'm doing that because my book becomes much more coherent and things are easier to plan and get done and I feel less out of control and de-motivated.

The other thing I do is use mind maps - but properly. Mind maps should be thought-journeys rather than capturing facts in a spiderweb. For example, I was writing a teaching session on research the other day and I started by thinking what is the starting point? And mapped my thoughts from there:

starting point ->where they are now ->each with their own idea/experience of research ->each with own clinical experiences.

Then from starting point I produced another stream of thought.

starting point ->'elicit'. So from elicit ->assumptions ->beliefs ->practices. From each of these I asked a question - what classroom activity can I use to do this? So I decided to do a fun exercise called 'last 15 minutes of the world' where you pretend Earth is going to be hit by a memory virus and you have 15 minutes to write down everything you think is important about a subject.

The whole map was a journey:

starting point ->elicit ->question ->challenge ->inform ->synthesis.

Each of those points had parts coming off which helped me to decide what type of teaching to do. I did not really provide them with any actual new content until the 'inform' stage at which point they were ready to listen because they had so many questions. And then I only give the bare minimum and show them where to go and read - and I am fairly confident they will be motivated to read.

So when approaching a piece of writing like an article I also do a mind map of the journey I want to take the reader on.

I wonder if that might help you to plot the last stage - do a map up till now and ask where you want the reader to end up?
 

Mud~Eye

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Snowqeen, do you know of a good source to get more information on the desrcibed mind map? You placed emphasis on doing it properly, as if there are improper uses. I think I get the gist of this method, but would like to look more into it. I've never heard of this before.
Thanks.
 

snowqueen

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brain enclosed in flesh

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This is a ton of fabulous advice- thank you, all. I'll get back to you in detail after I've digested it. (Send more if so inclined, as well.)
 

QSR

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I agree you need someone else to help you.

Has anyone had success teaming up with J types?
 

Artifice Orisit

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I finished the rough draft of my novel over a year ago. I have been rewriting it for the past year. I was able to be uncharacteristically self-disciplined in this process until about six months ago; since then I have been characteristically undisciplined.
I don't know how to finish this damn thing. I suck at organizing, linking things into a logical chain of events, etc. Not only do I suck at it, I find it incredibly tedious and uninspiring.
Clearly this isn't just a matter of discipline, novels are creative works after all and just like painting a picture or singing a song the creation of the work itself should be something you do because you enjoy doing it.

I simply can't understand how someone could write a story without intrinsically knowing the ending before they begin. Stories are not simulations of life with drama tacked on to make them interesting, they are themes born from philosophical questions woven into a symbolic simulation of life itself where the innate forces of emotion, reason, idealism and cynicism play their parts in effecting the final answer, the conclusion, the ending.

If you don't know where your story is going and more importantly why it is going there, how can you write anything other than a aimless meandering through thought?

Just keep asking yourself Why.
Why is your protagonist in this story?
Why is there a conflict?
Why is the conflict so difficult to solve?
Why must a resolution be found?
Why must the story end?
Why are you writing this story? <- Very Important question.
etc...

If you don't know why you’re writing the story (what it is you want to tell) then why indeed are your writing it?

To me the story is a question, the ending the answer.
So what is the question? Why?
Answer this and your story will be rich in meaning, to you and the reader.
Good books are a window into the writer’s mind, their soul if you want.
 

brain enclosed in flesh

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You are right, Cognisant. There needs to be a reason for a story, an answer of sorts to a question. The problem for me is-

1. Is this the proper question?
2. Is this the proper answer?
3. Should I phrase this question/answer differently?
4. In what fashion should this question be proposed and addressed?
5. The questions go on and on and on.

I'll explain my writing process and how this book came about:

There was a feeling I was experiencing in relation to an aspect of my past (and present) that I did not understand. I started to write about it as an effort to understand it. I soon tired of writing about actuality and my mind veered into creating fiction as a way of answering that question. Three main characters soon created themselves and started to do what they wanted to do. I orchestrated these actions to an extent, but mostly I just let them happen. Afterwards, I looked at it and thought, how do I make sense of this? How do I tie this together into something of worth?

I am pretty sure I have for the most part answered this question. Now the issue is actualizing it.

I don't like to outline before I write. I like to allow things to just come, to not get hampered by my desire to control. Writing for me brings voice to feelings and thoughts I don't typically express. It allows my mind to go free in a way I don't typically allow. If I control my writing too quickly it negates the point, not to mention makes for a boring story.

But now I need to give it a skeletal system- it needs to evolve from slug to vertebrate. Reading everyone's advice and thinking about it all some more has re-invigorated me. It's exciting finding solutions to problems, and I look forward to solving this one. I'm going to start with the snowflake method sagewolf suggested. I've done a lot of the steps already so it doesn't seem so daunting. Thank you, sagewolf.

And thank you all. It's nice to get your insight and support. I find it encouraging- more encouraging than I expected, matter of fact. :)
 

Artifice Orisit

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1. Is this the proper question?
2. Is this the proper answer?
3. Should I phrase this question/answer differently?
4. In what fashion should this question be proposed and addressed?

The question is something like one of life's big questions, for example:
"Can we fight the future?" - Terminator franchise in a nutshell
(Biased choice I know, but it makes a good example)

The answer isn't a simple yes or no, through the course of the franchise the protagonists have tried again and again to destroy the skynet threat, catch is no matter what they do the war will happen, the progression of technology cannot be stopped. Eventually through trial and error (i.e. the hard way) they'll find themselves having to change in some way, be it physical ability, skill, knowledge, ideology or even basic values, the fact remains that the protagonist is a part of the problem, they only part they can control.

In the terminator franchise the protagonists must come to terms with the reality of their situation and devise a new perspective from which to handle it; in the second movie this is most apparent when Sarah Conner must learn to trust the t-800, her perceived enemy, in order to save the life of her son. And now I suspect in the upcoming movie a robot infiltrator will learn humanity, turn against skynet and destroy it utterly, as only an artificial intelligence can; or the writers will be lazy and just have him play a crucial part in blowing it up.

The point is stories aren’t a straight path from question-to-answer, instead the answer should be something the protagonists have to discover through some change in themselves.

1. Is this the proper question?
There are no wrong questions, just pick one you like best.
2. Is this the proper answer?
The longer it took you to find it, the better it is.
3. Should I phrase this question/answer differently?
Don't phrase it at all, it's a theme.
4. In what fashion should this question be proposed and addressed?
Through the difficulties experienced by your characters, make them find the answer themselves, the hard way.
 

brain enclosed in flesh

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Yes, I know, Cognisant. I was speaking figuratively to go along with your question/answer concept. What I meant was:

1. Is this the theme/question I want to address?
2. Am I resolving it in the most suitable way?
3. Am I expounding on the theme in the way I truly want to be?
4. Are my characters answering the question in the way that suits them best?

But you wouldn't necessarily know that. I appreciate all of the time and consideration you have given this topic. You've been helpful. Thanks.
 

snowqueen

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I just hate poorly written stories.

I particularly hate poor endings. Miss Smilla's Feeling for Snow comes to mind. Captain Corelli's Mandolin another though there wasn't much to recommend the entire book which I thought was frankly overrated.
 

Servente

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Snowqueens right. You need a deadline so you can work under pressure. Like cramming for a test.

Why not submit it as is to a publisher. After a few rejection letters maybe you'll be teed off enough to get to it. No, you're and INTP you're used to rejection.
 
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