Communication Difficulties

[AndyC]

Using Ti, a process by which when I apply it in depth, a myriad of colors and strange animations appear to assist me in the chunking of information and my efforts in processing complex abstractions. The difficulty in this is that in communication I have to 'unchunk' information and do various 'undoings' of my processes so that others may understand. On the forum, I believe I keep my ideas at a slightly higher level than irl, but only so much that I can communicate them clearly and effectively. On my blog I posted "drugs and religion are the same thing" tackling the parallel between them. The parallel being that they both are methods to escape reality. Explaining this to my ENFP father and leading to some debate because of his being religious, he couldn't grasp ideas that should be quite simple. My rebuttals were probably a little more complicated, yet like many, he couldn't understand the methodology of logical argument I am confident in my ability to follow or the abstractions I was proposing. What is normally the difficulty is the new interpretations of ideas I bring to the table, and how I come up with these is to break things down to their conceptual and 'mathematical/syntactic/whatevercal' constituents and work from there. I believe the issues are in my chunking/in my analyses and in the lack of grasp of the structure of argument others seem to possess. My father has displayed, just this morning, this poor grasp when he tried to prove something using the premise that what he was trying to prove is correct, and not by the method of induction. I normally perceive fallacies in others' arguments in discussions and debates, and they don't understand the point I'm making. By abduction when considering the evidence I do have, I need to work on my communication, but I'm not sure if it may actually be too high level as a result of Ti. There is the possibility that I am like Donald Trump, and am completely unaware of my actual stupidity, but there are in fact people who do understand what I am trying to say, and I can normally follow a good conversation with them, most notably in others who likely use Ti (ENTP friend, ISFJ mother). This has grown to significant levels of inconvenience, even after a partly successful effort to improve in my ability to communicate abstract ideas.
Help?

 

[JR_IsP]

Kinda the same situation. A few years ago, while struggling in High School (a place with a lot of sensors/feelers/judgers... I didn't fit in), I had similar comunication difficulties.

But when at some point between 15 and 17 Ne started to show up, it all changed. Using Ti to analyze ideas and for internal criticism is a very good idea, but when you need to explain... trust in your Ne. It helps.

A lot.

A little tip: Try to do some gestures with your hands and little drawings to make people understand things easier. Also ask people questions, in order to stimulate internal intuition and thinking process. It also reveals when a person is just too irrational to understand (mostly on sport debates).

 

[Hadoblado]

You're attacking his core beliefs. People almost universally have more difficulty truly grasping the arguments against their position than those for them. They really don't benefit much from understanding the weaknesses of their position (in the immediate future that is).

My understanding is that Ti should make you *good* at articulating your thoughts. It tends towards precision, rigor, and falsifiability: stuff that can be stated logically. Speaking from my own experience, it's very rare for me to have difficulty articulating something I think up, presumably because my conscious thought is largely in words, thus the idea arrives 'pre-packaged'.

In debate/discussion, the things you say should not be complex. Unless you're talking about a highly specialised field, you should probably be using simple terms and simple argument forms. How well did you do at English? Do you write good essays? From the way you wrote the OP, it does seem like you could tune up on your communication. Text walls are hard to read.

From observing myself and others, I think the short-comings of Ti in regards to communication include:
1) - using overcomplicated terminology. This includes logical fallacies.
2) - unnecessary nitpicking. Fixation on the truth value of every thing said rather than the central premises
3) - a poor grasp of where the other side is coming from. Often misses key context and holistic comprehension while still applying bottom-up criticisms.

I think it's really good that you've identified this as a communication issue, a lot of people just conclude they're too smart for people to understand, which is rubbish.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

my conscious thought is largely in words, thus the idea arrives 'pre-packaged'

I think the fact that my thoughts tend to not be in words, or not be in complete sentences, is why I have a lot of communication difficulties. Methinks writing more would help me to become more articulate.

 

[AndyC]

From observing myself and others, I think the short-comings of Ti in regards to communication include:
1) - using overcomplicated terminology. This includes logical fallacies.
2) - unnecessary nitpicking. Fixation on the truth value of every thing said rather than the central premises
3) - a poor grasp of where the other side is coming from. Often misses key context and holistic comprehension while still applying bottom-up criticisms.

This is a very good summary of my difficulties, now I know that the reason for my difficulties has been identified.


And no, I'm not that great at English. The difficulty I have with English is that I do not always make explicit the links I am trying to make for when communicating, I naturally assume that I need not go beyond what is implicit. An example above is the Religion and Drug debate with my Father, in which I had implicitly argued for a moral parallel, not merely definition and in consequence, he had not captured the nuanced implicit meaning in what I had said. This is definitely one of my problems in communications and leads very much to 1. 2 is a result of proper communication, that is, I try to keep everything consistent so the audience doesn't become confused. 3 is a result of overcomplicating things.
I think the instantaneous calculation I use is the application of Ne, and the issue is not in a poor use of Ne, but speaking slower, explicitly and limiting terminology.
Would this work?

 

[AndyC]

There are 3 possible reasons for a difficulty in articulation. The 1st is that my Ti has not developed enough to capture my 'raw' thoughts into words at a fast enough rate. The 2nd is in my preference of thought. 3rd, preference of medium (content versus presentation).

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

Ti for the INFJ is a lower function, common to be overused by the male INFJ (maybe female too?) and ultimately interfered with healthy functioning if done too much or rather to say that there is a better way to do it and that is to focus first on the Ni and second on the Fe (and not to forget the unconscious functions either) but Ti is a common crutch that is used to deal with the world.

Drugs and religion have some connections such as that they open the mind up to a-rational means of understanding and induce visionary states but I don't know I think you are over-emphasising things to try and make a neat theory, remember that just because you see a strong link it can sometimes be your own limits and imagination in a sense that is causing the identification but I don't know to what extent you mean it.

 

[AndyC]

I am rather set on my being an XNTP, the only possible misinterpretation is the Ne vs Ni situation. If you could describe this that may be a grat help to my self-typing.
If you'd like you can postulate your ideas on the debate thread I created, and continue any discussion of it there.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

I am rather set on my being an XNTP, the only possible misinterpretation is the Ne vs Ni situation. If you could describe this that may be a grat help to my self-typing.
If you'd like you can postulate your ideas on the debate thread I created, and continue any discussion of it there.

ok, nevermind then

 

[JR_IsP]

Self typing is complex. Just 16 types for all the 7 billion world population? MBTI can be useful for some things and finding people you can understand... but is DEFINITELY NOT a guide to life.

I think that solving individual problems is better when you identify the problems and solve them one by one than trying to relate them to cognitive functions. I'm not totally convinced that you can only use 4 of them... or that there are only 8, I'm convinced toughts are way more complex.

If you want to improve your debating, find yourself debates in real life. Person to person communication helps incredibly.

I know this may be too rough to asimilate (it was for me, especially the last part)... but as the other MBTI types, INTPs need to grow, and that's is only achieved by social development, using all your functions (and going beyond them), keeping your mind open...

I'm not an expert in life. At all, but no one truly is one, so go ahead and follow your gut.

 

[OmoInisa]

You're attacking his core beliefs. People almost universally have more difficulty truly grasping the arguments against their position than those for them. They really don't benefit much from understanding the weaknesses of their position (in the immediate future that is).

My understanding is that Ti should make you *good* at articulating your thoughts. It tends towards precision, rigor, and falsifiability: stuff that can be stated logically. Speaking from my own experience, it's very rare for me to have difficulty articulating something I think up, presumably because my conscious thought is largely in words, thus the idea arrives 'pre-packaged'.

In debate/discussion, it's rare that the things you say should be complex. Unless you're talking about a highly specialised field, you should probably be using simple terms and simple argument forms. How well did you do at English? Do you write good essays? From the way you wrote the OP, it does seem like you could tune up on your communication. Text walls are hard to read.

From observing myself and others, I think the short-comings of Ti in regards to communication include:
1) - using overcomplicated terminology. This includes logical fallacies.
2) - unnecessary nitpicking. Fixation on the truth value of every thing said rather than the central premises
3) - a poor grasp of where the other side is coming from. Often misses key context and holistic comprehension while still applying bottom-up criticisms.

I think it's really good that you've identified this as a communication issue, a lot of people just conclude they're too smart for people to understand, which is rubbish.

Gold star

 

[Lazy Vulpes]

Not gonna read that, next time, please consider separating your paragraphs. (not being hostile, just honest feedback)

 

[Happy]

Andy, you're able to draw on a broad lexicon in your writing. Could it be that you find a disparity in the way that you communicate orally vs the way you communicate in writing because you haven't yet developed the ability to apply your lexicon to oral communication yet?

I ask because I've experienced that problem at your age. The way I overcame it, and I'm not saying this is the right way, was to develop my ability to speak with simple English, leaving the more complex language to the realm of writing. At some point, the broad vocabulary began to make its way into my oral communication; but I now choose to reserve that for situations that necessitate it, sticking mostly to simple English.

One thing that came up over and over during my time in architecture school was the notion that, and I paraphrase, 'if you can't explain your design in words your grandmother (i.e. a layperson) can understand, you don't understand it yourself'.

Ehhh anyway I hope my interpretation of your dilemma is on the right track and this has been helpful.

P.S. having a totally different way of speaking to that of writing has it's amusing benefits. Particularly when you write to someone before you meet them, which is something I do often. Watching their expectations shatter is always entertaining.

Not gonna read that, next time, please consider separating your paragraphs. (not being hostile, just honest feedback)

Bullshit. That IS being hostile. You engaged in the conversation solely to criticise, and blatantly turned your back on the content.

 

[Hadoblado]

This is a very good summary of my difficulties, now I know that the reason for my difficulties has been identified.


And no, I'm not that great at English. The difficulty I have with English is that I do not always make explicit the links I am trying to make for when communicating, I naturally assume that I need not go beyond what is implicit. An example above is the Religion and Drug debate with my Father, in which I had implicitly argued for a moral parallel, not merely definition and in consequence, he had not captured the nuanced implicit meaning in what I had said. This is definitely one of my problems in communications and leads very much to 1. 2 is a result of proper communication, that is, I try to keep everything consistent so the audience doesn't become confused. 3 is a result of overcomplicating things.

If I'm entirely honest with you, the comparison between drugs and religion doesn't seem useful to me. It doesn't make the conversation simpler. It doesn't improve understanding. What it does do is liken someone's closely held beliefs to a word with strong negative affective valence (drugs).

Rather than make an explicit parallel, perhaps it would be better to use it as a counter-example?

oversimplified example:
Dad - religion is good because it makes people feel better. It doesn't matter that it's not 100% rational if it makes life more worth living
AndyC - drugs are good because they make people feel better. It doesn't matter that they're not 100% rational if it makes life more worth living.
Dad - holy shit son you're right lets get lit

While it's kinda fun to make other positions look ridiculous, it does not generally help persuade people. Likening someone's beliefs to drug use is an attack, asking why you shouldn't use drugs but should use religion doesn't have to be.

Maybe I should add:

4) - preoccupation with being correct without thinking about what best would convince a conversational partner

There are 3 possible reasons for a difficulty in articulation. The 1st is that my Ti has not developed enough to capture my 'raw' thoughts into words at a fast enough rate. The 2nd is in my preference of thought. 3rd, preference of medium (content versus presentation).

It's not about developing 'more' Ti. That wouldn't explain why your written communication is poor.

It's not that you have a preference for thought. If that were the case, other thinkers would have difficulty articulating themselves. This is not the case.

I think that it's fair to say you have a preference for content over presentation. Presentation is a skill that can be learned, so you're in a good position to overcome this obstacle.

I am rather set on my being an XNTP, the only possible misinterpretation is the Ne vs Ni situation. If you could describe this that may be a grat help to my self-typing.
If you'd like you can postulate your ideas on the debate thread I created, and continue any discussion of it there.

I don't think it's healthy to be set on being a particular type. First off, categorically, a perceiver should be keeping their options open. The fact you're set on any particular type makes it more likely you're a judging type. Secondly, this:

I think the instantaneous calculation I use is the application of Ne, and the issue is not in a poor use of Ne, but speaking slower, explicitly and limiting terminology.
Would this work?

Doesn't really make too much sense to me. If you were calculating, you'd be able to show others the maths. Ne isn't about calculating either, it's about perceiving. Basically, my expectation for a Ne user would be that they might come up with the above comparison, but it would be one of many ideas they would cycle through, and their commitment to it would be low unless they'd expanded the idea and more thoroughly explored all the others.
I'm not going to tell you what your functions are, but this sounds consistent with what I understand Te or Ni to be like. Te works frighteningly fast and is very goal directed. Ni is a perceiving function, but goes deep rather than broad - many heavy Ni users will be able to tell you what they believe but not necessarily be able to articulate much about how they got there.

Finally, IMO, it's just bad to commit to being a type. MBTI is supposed to describe personality, not prescribe it. When you commit to a type, this shapes your identity and your notion of what you can and cannot do. It becomes unnecessarily limiting even if it's just at the level of shaping your perceptions through availability.

Regardless of whether you are INTP or whatever, it does seem like you belong here. You've been making some thought provoking threads that's for certain.

 

[AndyC]

Being set on something within it's system does not mean I'm set on the system. And set was the wrong word to use, it's just likely that INTP is what suits.
The Ne calculation is actually pretty interesting. When I say instantaneous, I mean it happens in the moment, I notice various details, and will intuitively respond. It just captures the various things happening to help decide a response through the process of coming up with different ideas, then kind of storing that information for later.
I'm glad I'm able to provoke thought on the threads, thanks for your feedback Hado. My father and I always have random debates about things, not that he always enjoys it.

Happy, that's probably an accurate analysis, what I write and what I say are pretty different. I'll try your advice, and see if simpler words will help, although this will take some practice.

 

[BronzeBlue]

I've had similar problems pointed out to me. I never picked up on not communicating myself clearly until I was told. I do the same thing of leaving out an explanation for the 'in between steps', from one thought/idea to another. I tend to assume what I don't implicitly state is obvious and don't realise it's not until someone says they're confused. I'm currently trying to be more 'explanatory'.

Weirdly, I don't believe I have trouble with this naturally, it really happens more when I have to meet a certain word count for things like academic papers. I'm good at boiling concepts down to their core elements and don't like wrapping it all up in useless fluff. I really hate being long-winded and prefer to be as precise and succinct as possible without forgetting important information. I always end up with way less words than I'm supposed to and end up trying to fill the gap in. THAT is really what makes my writing sound more convoluted and complicated than it originally was. But, putting more value on content than appearance as was said probably plays into too.

It's a problem I have more in writing than verbally though, I think. I don't state my thoughts out loud until I'm done mulling them over, and when asked for an explanation I can easily give it.

So, I suppose, after you finish processing what you want to say, check your thought process/explanation over to see if there's anything that could be misinterpreted. State information that is clarifying in a simple manner without losing the actual meaning, but don't give more detail/information that could cloud what you're trying to say.

As for self-typing, if you're certain of being high Ne or Ni, try looking at if you can identify with Si at all. I'm in a similar situation at the moment and learning what I can about Si/observing my own thought processes to determine what kind of intuition I'm using. From what I can tell, confusion in typing between (high) Ne and Ni is pretty common.

 

[Happy]

I've had similar problems pointed out to me. I never picked up on not communicating myself clearly until I was told. I do the same thing of leaving out an explanation for the 'in between steps', from one thought/idea to another. I tend to assume what I don't implicitly state is obvious and don't realise it's not until someone says they're confused. I'm currently trying to be more 'explanatory'.

Weirdly, I don't believe I have trouble with this naturally, it really happens more when I have to meet a certain word count for things like academic papers. I'm good at boiling concepts down to their core elements and don't like wrapping it all up in useless fluff. I really hate being long-winded and prefer to be as precise and succinct as possible without forgetting important information. I always end up with way less words than I'm supposed to and end up trying to fill the gap in. THAT is really what makes my writing sound more convoluted and complicated than it originally was. But, putting more value on content than appearance as was said probably plays into too.

It's a problem I have more in writing than verbally though, I think. I don't state my thoughts out loud until I'm done mulling them over, and when asked for an explanation I can easily give it.

So, I suppose, after you finish processing what you want to say, check your thought process/explanation over to see if there's anything that could be misinterpreted. State information that is clarifying in a simple manner without losing the actual meaning, but don't give more detail/information that could cloud what you're trying to say.

As for self-typing, if you're certain of being high Ne or Ni, try looking at if you can identify with Si at all. I'm in a similar situation at the moment and learning what I can about Si/observing my own thought processes to determine what kind of intuition I'm using. From what I can tell, confusion in typing between (high) Ne and Ni is pretty common.

I've struggled with this problem also. What I find works for me is to answer the following questions when communicating an idea:
WHAT?
WHY?
HOW?
[in that order]

If you've skipped one, you probably haven't communicated the idea effectively.

Every breakdown in communication I've had could have been improved by holding myself to this framework. Every time I've communicated effectively, I've answered these questions.

"What? Why? How?"
Try it. Apply it to everything.

 

[BronzeBlue]

I've struggled with this problem also. What I find works for me is to answer the following questions when communicating an idea:
WHAT?
WHY?
HOW?
[in that order]

If you've skipped one, you probably haven't communicated the idea effectively.

Every breakdown in communication I've had could have been improved by holding myself to this framework. Every time I've communicated effectively, I've answered these questions.

"What? Why? How?"
Try it. Apply it to everything.

Thanks! I'll try that, very good timing. I'm currently in the middle of assessments, of which a large number are essays...I miss the times I used to get good marks for those. Ever since starting uni, I get continuous feedback on being unclear. The only tutor who bothered explaining to me why I'm being unclear and how I can fix it, talked to me last week. He gave me similar advice to yours. A reminder is always good though

 

[Happy]

Thanks! I'll try that, very good timing. I'm currently in the middle of assessments, of which a large number are essays...I miss the times I used to get good marks for those. Ever since starting uni, I get continuous feedback on being unclear. The only tutor who bothered explaining to me why I'm being unclear and how I can fix it, talked to me last week. He gave me similar advice to yours. A reminder is always good though

Oh how appropriate - that great little philosophy was something I picked up at uni.

More uni advice: write your essay plan first. Then, crucially, (if necessary, balls up and) email/hand it to your assessor for feedback. Their feedback will put you on the right path if you're not already on it and will cut out many hours of wrong turns and wasted time.

 

[BronzeBlue]

Oh how appropriate - that great little philosophy was something I picked up at uni.

More uni advice: write your essay plan first. Then, crucially, (if necessary, balls up and) email/hand it to your assessor for feedback. Their feedback will put you on the right path if you're not already on it and will cut out many hours of wrong turns and wasted time.

Oh damn. I hate writing essay plans though I probably should do those more. I've never done drafts for anything because I usually end up finishing it all at once :'D

That actually brings me back...before uni, I think I was a lot clearer on what points I wanted to do and as I wrote it out, it would all come together really well. Maybe uni essays just make me panic more.

This may sound weird, but the majority of my high school essays were under exam conditions which I actually thrive under. When I'm working on long pieces of writing at home, I have far too much time and freedom to do anything but focus. Maybe I could also try and replicate some kind exam condition thing, that could help.


That being said though, the teacher I mentioned did tell me to just send him any writing for his feedback. I'm already cringing but it's true that that will only benefit me.

 

[Happy]

Oh I forgot one important point. The essay plan should estimate how many words you allocate to each part of your outline. This is helpful for a few reasons, but your preference for working under pressure indicates this will be most beneficial to you in allowing you to simulate exam conditions. Let's say, each chunk is 400 words. If 400 words of academic writing takes you approx 2 hours: structure each chunk as a question to yourself; set a deadline of 2 hours for every chunk (like an exam). The fastest finishes/best grades I got in uni were a result of following this method.

Don't forego an essay plan with word estimates, and don't miss out on having it checked.

Trust me on this one, I spent 6 years full time at uni, and learnt from many mistakes. (Never failed though, lowest ever grade was 65%)

 

[BronzeBlue]

Oh I forgot one important point. The essay plan should estimate how many words you allocate to each part of your outline. This is helpful for a few reasons, but your preference for working under pressure indicates this will be most beneficial to you in allowing you to simulate exam conditions. Let's say, each chunk is 400 words. If 400 words of academic writing takes you approx 2 hours: structure each chunk as a question to yourself; set a deadline of 2 hours for every chunk (like an exam). The fastest finishes/best grades I got in uni were a result of following this method.

Don't forego an essay plan with word estimates, and don't miss out on having it checked.

Trust me on this one, I spent 6 years full time at uni, and learnt from many mistakes. (Never failed though, lowest ever grade was 65%)

Thanks! I'll try this.

 

[INTPWolf]

i hardly ever feel like i have things in word format when im speaking casually in shallow converstion, but when the conversation with another person becomes philosophical i shine, my words are exactly what i mean, and my analogies and allegories make sense.

But when the thoughts are in my head i make far reaching connections far faster than my Ne can keep up, so no words are put to it.