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Cognitive Functions 100: Basic Functionality Revised

BigApplePi

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I never said that you only predict the future with Ni. It requires a bit of all the functions.
Fair enough.
Don't take my questions as attacks. (Technically, they're an attack on logic.)
Also fair. Thank you.
What I was trying to say: You should try talking to more people, in person. It might be fun.
What do you suggest I talk about? How? When I last attended an MBTI meeting I felt I was talking to a group of astrologers. Not experts. I'm not an extrovert. I need to think but am just doing very poor job of it in this case.:confused:
 

Artsu Tharaz

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How to be a good parent: Talk to your child and explain things to them.
How to not become stress-locked in your functions: Stop worrying about things that don't matter.

oversimplifying.

when it comes to actually doing these things, using personality type could be advantageous (see the post you quoted)
 

Reluctantly

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Reluctantly I'm having as much trouble as you are and hope to take a look at your post later.

A great deal seems to hinge on introversion versus extroversion meanings ... at least as a start. Does it all hinge on what the "self" is? I have a conscious self. If I gain energy escaping (not dwelling on) myself, is that extroversion? If I gain energy dwelling upon myself is that introversion?

To be honest, personally, I always (always as in once I formed a judgment on it) thought the energy explanation was a way for people to take a complex, but recognizable, process of thinking/perceiving (that belongs to a function) and explain them through causation of extroversion and introversion. But the abstract function that represents those processes isn't intended to define causation; that would be like saying we don't each have our own unique intelligence with the world; and we know that isn't true.

People that try to explain causation with the functions eventually seem to meet with discord because they are basically deciding they know how or why someone else is the way they are just from knowing their type and without having to actually know them from firsthand experience.

If I add a column of figures and enjoy it, what extroverted function(s) is being used? If I add a column of figures and dislike it, what introverted function(s) am I using?

Why would you want to define this in terms of a category or type? The functions are an abstraction that can contain an infinite number of particulars and a lot of them can crossover with other functions. But that doesn't mean we can't recognize when someone is using a process of thought to reach certain particulars. Does this seem reasonable to you?

If adding a column of figures is an objective extroverted activity, according to Adymus, an INTP is using Ne or Fe; an INTJ is using Te or Se. More generally any type has only two possible extroverted cognitive functions. I'm not at rest with this.

Possible solution for column adding: An INTP uses Ti-Si; an INTJ uses Te-Se.

What would you suggest? I don't necessarily agree with making the functions into prescribed personalities because all that I gain from it is in framing certain kinds of thinking, which we all do fluctuate from. But even that fluctuation in some ways is part of an overall type, the conflict between opposing and yet complimentary aspects of processing the world, that can help people frame and understanding of their psyche in relation to the world, if not misused as bad faith.



THE PLOT THICKENS.
monocle.gif
 

Reluctantly

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It is an illusion that we have control of our meta-self. Our body and it's ungraceful interaction with it's environment defines who we are for us.

Possibly. But then you'd be saying we have no control, in which case non-deterministic philosophies would like to see you after-class for a wholehearted intimate spanking.

I merely postulate that one of those mechanical-factors is the configuration of brain wiring. But even if that weren't so, you'd still be led by other wirings nonetheless.

As far as I understand, the study of genetics itself isn't a binary matter, but one that can spawn an infinite number of potentialities into a physical structure.

But the concept of consciousness, in that an entity is aware, is part of a process, one that depends on time to induce change of that physical structure.

What you seem to be arguing is that their exists static qualities that have more influence over dynamic ones; and this is greatly debated, whether or not such forms even exist outside the interpretation that consciousness brings. I guess you've made up your mind on the matter, but what reason(s) do you base your conclusion on?

For such people, if they could be informed of their true nature and assured it is not some disease/disorder they carry that needs changing -- then healing can occur. Other practical uses might be developing a more refined education curriculum that more efficiently teaches students of all different personalities and learning styles.

But then how do you answer to the person that says their true nature depended more on their experiences and then goes on to tell you, perhaps because of that, that they think all you are doing is "excusing behavior"? I suppose if we got right down to it, everyone would agree their true nature is one that can live without fear, insecurity, and stress, but that's also a part of life that our dna partly corresponds to.

Another use may be for parenting books. Since type is genetic (but not necessarily hereditary), a lot of parents may not understand why their child behaves in ways they were never taught to - and if a parent can be made aware of their child's personality early on, they can empathize with that and find ways to encourage positive development of that child rather than suppressing their child's native mode due to lack of understanding.

Just a few examples I can think of..

Have you considered the idea that type could be arguably more genetic for some people and more experience for others?
 

BigApplePi

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CF100 & Nature/Nurture

Have you considered the idea that type could be arguably more genetic for some people and more experience for others?
Jumping in here, would you guys buy that heredity versus environment is not a "more or less" but rather like an uncured clay cup that is malleable yet can still be filled?

The cup <--> heredity
The contents <--> environment

Heredity is something that can be pushed against and may give a little, but not much. Unlike broadening experience which has lots of room but with limits.
 

Mello

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Free will — You create your own destiny.

Nature vs Nurture 50/50
 

Auburn

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Have you considered the idea that type could be arguably more genetic for some people and more experience for others?
This actually hits the precise mark of where I am hinging/debating with myself at the moment. =) Um.. I'll answer it further down.

What you seem to be arguing is that their exists static qualities that have more influence over dynamic ones; and this is greatly debated, whether or not such forms even exist outside the interpretation that consciousness brings. I guess you've made up your mind on the matter, but what reason(s) do you base your conclusion on?
Once again, well spoken. Yesh, I think that static qualities (nature) are more potent than dynamic ones (nurture) though both play a key role. The basis I used for this deduction is the observation of impulses. That is to say, as I watch people of different personalities I notice that they can't help not act in accordance to it..

To use a few (real) stereotypical examples I've come across personally:

- The Ne dominant child who simply cannot sit still even if he is aware that he cannot sit still ("I can't stop moving and jittering, I'm sooo bored")
- The Fe dominant sister who tries desperately to not 'care' what others think of her but utterly fails and falls to self-consciousness.
- The Se dominant that cannot resist his draw toward the sensual, exciting, even if it isn't the right thing to do.
- The Te dominant who earnestly tries to understand why people act so irrational and struggles to find a grain of empathy
- The Ti dominant who can't help but (nit)pick up on contradictions in speech and logic.

I have interacted with several self-aware individuals of different personalities who were able to hold a birds-eyes view of their psyche; see what was causing them to think the way they do - and although they could see it, they cannot alter it. The same reality holds true for me. Although I am a Ti dominant and I can see just how my brain picks at a situation and decides how to move in it -- i simply am incapable of mimicking a different process like Ni, or acting in opposition to that Ti process. I've tried! lol

This all coincides, to me, with Jung's words and how he described the functions as consuming the psyche of the individual. A type of obsession. Remember that Carl Jung worked with psychiatric patients. The patterns he noticed in his patients were often life-traps. Mental prisons. In his book Psychological Types chapter 10, he describes the functions in quite a negative/dark light, as we could expect seeing how the type of people that go to a shrink are presumably ill.

The point being, the people Jung observed were people who were ill versions of their configuration and who, despite whatever inconvenience in life it might cause them, remained always slaves to their mind's mode of processing. Often times our personality type isn't the best suited for the environment we're in (i.e. A feeler in a hostile environment might wish they were a thick-skinned Te dominant and unaffected by criticisms/etc, but the body won't listen. They might find a way to cope, but they will become jaded in a way that Te dominants simply would not: given the same environment)

I went a bit off track.. I'm a bit short on time atm, but I hope that made some sense. I can't say for sure that every person is definitely controlled to a greater extent by nature than nurture, but I notice that at *least* a large percent of the population is moved by these influences beyond their control (to their detriment or benefit)

It takes hard work to become conscious of the things your mind is doing, and much more work to alter them. Most people don't give it much thought.
 

Reluctantly

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Jumping in here, would you guys buy that heredity versus environment is not a "more or less" but rather like an uncured clay cup that is malleable yet can still be filled?

The cup <--> heredity
The contents <--> environment

Heredity is something that can be pushed against and may give a little, but not much. Unlike broadening experience which has lots of room but with limits.

Sure. FTR, I don't think MBTI describes the cup however, but mistakenly assigns particular contents to the cup.
And it's almost impossible to fix this now because so many people have formed bad faith on a Forer Effect and they just won't listen or maybe they don't really know how. What can one do if they don't want to waste time arguing on the internet?

I went a bit off track.. I'm a bit short on time atm, but I hope that made some sense. I can't say for sure that every person is definitely controlled to a greater extent by nature than nurture, but I notice that at *least* a large percent of the population is moved by these influences beyond their control (to their detriment or benefit)

It takes hard work to become conscious of the things your mind is doing, and much more work to alter them. Most people don't give it much thought.

It does, thanks. I'm always surprised to find that people are willing to answer my questions here, whereas elsewhere I'm perceived as a threat. And well I guess my questions are a threat in some ways, so thanks.
 

BigApplePi

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Sure. FTR, I don't think MBTI describes the cup however, but mistakenly assigns particular contents to the cup.
And it's almost impossible to fix this now because so many people have formed bad faith on a Forer Effect and they just won't listen or maybe they don't really know how. What can one do if they don't want to argue on the internet?
WTF is "FTR"? First time response? Failed to rescue? Fix Rotten Response? First time right? Field trouble report? For The Record?

I agree MBTI ascribes faulty contents but I insist on trying to fix it even though I may be beating my head against a wall. After talking to fellow INTP rattymat (on objectivity versus subjectivity), I'm slowly getting a handle on what everyone else knows: the difference between introversion and extroversion ...at least a small clue as to how to put it into words.


It does, thanks. I'm always surprised to find that people are willing to answer my questions here, whereas elsewhere I'm perceived as a threat. And well I guess my questions are a threat in some ways, so thanks.
I know yer talking to Auburn, but INTPs will not give up. Your questions may be a threat to others, but are just commencing to border on beginning to be delicious to an INTP ... speaking for myself.
 

Mello

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Fair enough.
Also fair. Thank you.
What do you suggest I talk about? How? When I last attended an MBTI meeting I felt I was talking to a group of astrologers. Not experts. I'm not an extrovert. I need to think but am just doing very poor job of it in this case.:confused:

You can talk about anything you want. You can describe the world around you. You can ask the person a lot of questions.
 

Auburn

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It does, thanks. I'm always surprised to find that people are willing to answer my questions here, whereas elsewhere I'm perceived as a threat. And well I guess my questions are a threat in some ways, so thanks.

No problem, Reluctantly. ^ ^

I always enjoy your questions in particular.
 
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