Can't keep a job

[Base groove]

Seriously I can't. It's not that I get fired ... it's that I just up and quit without warning.

I've probably been through 20+ jobs a year over the past four years.

I don't know why nothing is ever good enough....

One day I'm with a firmly established company with positive cash-flow and steady work, and I leave because things are too restrictive and I can't get any autonomy; so I go for the start-up who will bend to my incessant idealism.

Then, I turn around and leave the start-up because of a "risk-assessment" where I figure they are cash-poor and don't have enough $ coming in to pay me ... or at least things are too risky and, in a way, I become personally invested in the contracts (if I know that my money is only a sure thing if the house is finished by a certain deadline)... so really what it comes down to is my financial well-being is at the whims of some other fool's planning/investment skills...often times this "other fool" is just another hourly dude like me......not to mention they're (contractors) trying to capitalize/profit off of my skills as much as they can, so every time I "meet" somebody's "expectations", there is no improvement, and the cycle repeats on the next project: unrealistic deadlines, excessive pressure, the same obstacles ... over and over.

Over the years I've developed all kinds of indicators that I go by to determine whether it's worth sticking around (i.e. an objective risk assessment) usually it involves the caliber of employees, the caliber of tools, throughput operations, the builder we're working for .... all things I consider to be 'logical'.

Yes ... getting paid is a big deal, and it's not a sure thing, as it were, ... there have been many times I haven't been paid in the past and had to commence all kinds of legal proceedings. For every story you hear about a contractor that rips his customers off, there's three more about a contractor that didn't pay his employees and there's three more yet about a contractor who wasn't paid at all by his customer. It's just this big cycle of people not getting paid... so what do you do besides develop indicators for a risk assessment and stand firm to your convictions?

Fuck I don't know. Today I walked out on a job and the guy made some really persuasive arguments to keep me around, but over and over I listened to everything he said and thought about it and then ended up just leaving anyway. We talked for about 45 minutes as I was trying to leave.

The part I can't get over is I worked for him in the past, for a separate company, and they didn't pay me and they owe me something like $650. So this guy was apparently also not paid by that company and he opened his own business and I took a job last week from him. So now I can't get over this previously made association between him and the company that owes me $600, even though he claims they owe him $12k.

His rationale is that I should say because he'll build his company around my ideas and experience.. so I will realize tangible rewards for an intangible concept (i.e. my supreme INTJ) if I stick around. However, in the short term, there is extreme risk that his company will become insolvent ... as by my estimate he's teetering on a balance of less than $1000 cash, and I know that costs are a few hundred dollars a day in this business.

I'm not even sure how anybody is supposed to reply to this. I guess, if it makes sense or doesn't, tell me.

 

[TimeAsylums]

The story of BaseGroove

seeking autonomy, his ideal, and room to blossom and grow.

 

[kris]

Are you always working in the same field?

 

[Base groove]

The story of BaseGroove

seeking autonomy, his ideal, and room to blossom and grow.

I read all of your posts so far (3) I think.

Are you always working in the same field?

Always the same job - framing. The only difference one job to the next is the amount of autonomy/authority although I pretty much tend to just take whatever I need and order people around as necessary.

On the other hand, the environment can be vastly different and this really has a lot to do with the criteria. Any small-time contractor is basically going to be on a house or duplex, or rarely something larger like 4-8 unit multiplexes or townhomes.... and then there's walk-up apartments which I tend to avoid, although recently I've been considering it again.

Houses are great because there are usually no more than 4-5 people (mostly 2-3) and if there is a competent person at the helm, there will never be a mistake and the entire building will go perfectly. Obviously the larger the project the more you let things go a bit and occasionally something like an alignment issue will compile and you will have some ridiculous looking balconies by the 4th floor so the importance of competent leadership reflects this...

Where things go wrong then, is when a house is built by one person who messes up and can't finish it. That's when people rush online and post jobs like "Crew Leader ... blah blah" but they don't tell you that you have to come aboard and finish this fucked up project that's already past due and they won't listen when you tell them that it's going to take until next fucking Thursday because all along they've been deceived by whatever idiot tried to assemble it the first time into believing that everything was under control. Meanwhile there's waves in the roof and your entire second floor is two inches too big in one corner. (or ... any number of the thousand-and-one other things that can actually go wrong and have to be fixed...it all has to be fixed, .. all of it.)

The deal with walk-ups (now with elevators!) is there's more safety gear needed (long pants and orange vests, as well has hard hats, roof safety harness, extra railings ...) so it's really a lot of stuff which can be avoided in residential. Companies are larger so although they have more money they are also more competitive. Not that I have any problem taking the top or second-from-top spot within a week or two, but it's harder to demand a decent wage as a larger pool of employees tends to deflate the normal wage. The plus side is that tools and equipment are usually up to standard or top-notch as well as adequately stocked. The importance of this can not be overstated.

(This just makes me feel like a moron when I reflect on the dozens of good ones I've left for no good reason - none I can remember anyway).

bleh

 

[Red myst]

I don't think you will get to have all that you want until you have your own startup. Have you considered it? I know it comes with its own set of problems, but which is worth more to you? I have seen a lot of people in construction just kind of drift around. People who are steady and reliable are not as common. It may take longer to get higher pay and the autonomy you would like, but maybe if you could get past a year or two at one of those established firms you mentioned, that might happen for you. And in the mean time, you could save some of that positive cash flow for plan "B", starting your own company. Learn from your experiences and make adjustments so they will work out better for you. I think it is a pretty natural thing you have gone through for the past four years. Nothing wrong with your thinking, you just needed the experience to completely understand the nature of the industry. Now you do. You might even consider taking up a new trade.

 

[Affinity]

If you're intj, easy, go start your own business. I've never seen a type so devoted to business in my life. Well I lied, that would prob be istj. But if you got the talent and know how, I would highly suggest the entrepreneur route.

 

[Happy]

If you're afraid of risk, you may be in the wrong industry.

Or, perhaps you are afraid of the risk being in the hands of other people, in which case, you may be in the wrong profession, but the right industry.

There should be no issue with getting paid... Where the hell do you live? (I'd like to make sure never to go there)

 

[Base groove]

If you're intj, easy, go start your own business. I've never seen a type so devoted to business in my life. Well I lied, that would prob be istj. But if you got the talent and know how, I would highly suggest the entrepreneur route.

OH .. yeah. Totally. I'm just raising capital (just a few thousand below 0 at the moment)... getting there. I wrote a business plan last year but lost it when my hard disk corrupted and haven't re-written it yet, but I had all of the numbers in place and this massive spreadsheet document that was pretty much all good to go. Just need capital.

I don't think you will get to have all that you want until you have your own startup. Have you considered it? I know it comes with its own set of problems, but which is worth more to you? I have seen a lot of people in construction just kind of drift around. People who are steady and reliable are not as common. It may take longer to get higher pay and the autonomy you would like, but maybe if you could get past a year or two at one of those established firms you mentioned, that might happen for you. And in the mean time, you could save some of that positive cash flow for plan "B", starting your own company. Learn from your experiences and make adjustments so they will work out better for you. I think it is a pretty natural thing you have gone through for the past four years. Nothing wrong with your thinking, you just needed the experience to completely understand the nature of the industry. Now you do. You might even consider taking up a new trade.

Yup exactly. One thing that I've noticed is that if people start-up with inadequate funding they have no ability to grow, and they eventually just fold. I would rather start a business with two feet to stand on rather than try and bootstrap it... because once you're in business it's like... different.

Some people figure you can start a framing company with a thousand bucks (like the guy I just quit from for example). I figured I'd need around $30k. But I just use Excel to do my math, so maybe that's too realistic for some folks who would rather just ... guesstimate things like costs and profit, and make up production goals based on ... trends. (Can't even say it with a straight face...)

If you're afraid of risk, you may be in the wrong industry.

Or, perhaps you are afraid of the risk being in the hands of other people, in which case, you may be in the wrong profession, but the right industry.

There should be no issue with getting paid... Where the hell do you live? (I'd like to make sure never to go there)

The risk is that the contractor I work for won't be paid, combined with the risk that they don't have adequate cash flow (which is, as mentioned, the main reason why I'm not going to register a company this afternoon).

I wouldn't say I'm afraid of trusting other people.. as long as they demonstrate adequate competency with risk assessment. Somebody who has an aforementioned "thousand dollar" business and works for subcontracting firms (i.e. people who take a cut and in exchange supply the jobs - MIDDLE MEN), does not meet my competency standards.

It would be a lot easier if people were just up front about what they've got going on but everybody is so deceptive and manipulative. Potential employers are equally concerned that there are inexperienced fools everywhere trying to manipulate their way into good jobs, and they're always on the lookout for this. They're just as sensitized to these conditions as I am, so what happens is you call for a job and they give you little to no info over the phone because they're fukn SENSORS and the only thing they want is to SEE you work. Half the time I mention wage on the phone and they end the conversation or say shit like ... "well I can't commit to anything until I see what you can do because blah blah blah" (well yeah I've heard the fukn story a hundred times.) So I say, "well, is it even feasible?"

 

[Cherry Cola]

Keep doing what you're doing, honing yourself, and take note of skilled people you may use later, as you save up cash so that the bank will loan you all them coins you need when you see an opening to get your own shit going with a low risk of initial failure with you as chief boss overlord? Then you try to steal as many of the skilled people as possible by using your INTJ presence of determination and unstoppable win?

 

[Base groove]

There should be no issue with getting paid... Where the hell do you live? (I'd like to make sure never to go there)

I live in Alberta. Edmonton and Calgary are basically the construction capitals of Canada right now. People from all over the country, and the United States, and even Europe are coming here to frame.

There are thousands of renegade, non-local contractors who come out here with the greedy-dollar-sign eyes of psychopathic capitalists, ready and willing to exploit every person, ignore every law, evade every tax, and cut every corner they can to put extra $$ in their pocket.

They're the ones who offer the highest wage and this is a natural result of the enhanced risk of working for them. Face it: if you quit, you're battling for your money. Anything less than $500 and you might as well walk away from it.

I'd say that over half of the companies out here do not pay their taxes or contribute vacation pay,

Some companies withhold income tax from employees and don't remit.

Some companies aren't even companies. Almost nobody is going to give you all the details you want before you start work, and once you start work ... that's it - now they owe you, and they act like they own you. So I quit...... the cycle continues.

It's a 'regulated' industry according to bureaucrats, but honestly, it's a god damn free for all.

 

[Base groove]

Keep doing what you're doing, honing yourself, and take note of skilled people you may use later, as you save up cash so that the bank will loan you all them coins you need when you see an opening to get your own shit going with a low risk of initial failure with you as chief boss overlord? Then you try to steal as many of the skilled people as possible by using your INTJ presence of determination and unstoppable win?

Yes x 1000

That's my idea too. Seriously, I've got so many plans for entrepreneurship my head is overflowing.

Oh the plot thickens - a bank loan is not going to happen. I either have to save the $ or find somebody who wants to invest (hint hint lol).

I had devised a very clever investment scheme where the initial investment buys about 40% share of stock and I pay dividends on a quarterly basis as well as buy the shares back over 40 months or whatever.

So what happens is the company grows and the value of the shares increases, so as I'm buying them back I'm paying more and more $, plus the dividends, it is a moderately respectable return on investment... I think it basically matches the risk pretty well.

 

[Helvete]

I live in Alberta. Edmonton and Calgary are basically the construction capitals of Canada right now. People from all over the country, and the United States, and even Europe are coming here to frame.

There are thousands of renegade, non-local contractors who come out here with the greedy-dollar-sign eyes of psychopathic capitalists, ready and willing to exploit every person, ignore every law, evade every tax, and cut every corner they can to put extra $$ in their pocket.

They're the ones who offer the highest wage and this is a natural result of the enhanced risk of working for them. Face it: if you quit, you're battling for your money. Anything less than $500 and you might as well walk away from it.

I'd say that over half of the companies out here do not pay their taxes or contribute vacation pay,

Some companies withhold income tax from employees and don't remit.

Some companies aren't even companies. Almost nobody is going to give you all the details you want before you start work, and once you start work ... that's it - now they owe you, and they act like they own you. So I quit...... the cycle continues.

It's a 'regulated' industry according to bureaucrats, but honestly, it's a god damn free for all.

Sounds, lovely... Same thing has happened to me though, for a lot more money. I'm owed 2k from one guy, I'm in a different industry to you; kitchen work, but it all works the same way as you describe. For reference this is in England and I don't doubt this kind of thing happens all over the world. Wherever there's a chance for exploitation, someone will already be doing it.

Good luck though man.

 

[Affinity]

Yes x 1000

That's my idea too. Seriously, I've got so many plans for entrepreneurship my head is overflowing.

Oh the plot thickens - a bank loan is not going to happen. I either have to save the $ or find somebody who wants to invest (hint hint lol).

I had devised a very clever investment scheme where the initial investment buys about 40% share of stock and I pay dividends on a quarterly basis as well as buy the shares back over 40 months or whatever.

So what happens is the company grows and the value of the shares increases, so as I'm buying them back I'm paying more and more $, plus the dividends, it is a moderately respectable return on investment... I think it basically matches the risk pretty well.

You can see if someone is interested in selling their operations at the moment and doing what's called a leveraged buy-out (LBO) which would involve no money up front on your end. I just learned about that yesterday and I thought was pretty neat. Perhaps look into it.

 

[Happy]

Hmm. That's fucked. Times like this, I'm glad I'm on the management side of things...

 

[Base groove]

Sounds, lovely... Same thing has happened to me though, for a lot more money. I'm owed 2k from one guy, I'm in a different industry to you; kitchen work, but it all works the same way as you describe. For reference this is in England and I don't doubt this kind of thing happens all over the world. Wherever there's a chance for exploitation, someone will already be doing it.

Good luck though man.

I wonder if you don't have it worse off in a way. When you need a new job, do you have to go through a structured application process? Resumes, interviews... etc? I rarely have to suffer through those procedures and protocol; this is the trade off for ... not having any procedures or protocol in the first place. For me, getting a job is as easy as finding one online, calling (or even texting) the person, and starting work the next morning. Any bureaucratic paperwork or what-have-you is deliberately ignored. The downside of this is... well, see above (employees have few rights because they may not even be employees ... it's seriously like the 12th century).

You can see if someone is interested in selling their operations at the moment and doing what's called a leveraged buy-out (LBO) which would involve no money up front on your end. I just learned about that yesterday and I thought was pretty neat. Perhaps look into it.

This, is a capital idea . I will definitely look into this. Other options are "Angel Investor" groups, which apparently can be found online.

 

[Helvete]

I wonder if you don't have it worse off in a way. When you need a new job, do you have to go through a structured application process? Resumes, interviews... etc? I rarely have to suffer through those procedures and protocol; this is the trade off for ... not having any procedures or protocol in the first place. For me, getting a job is as easy as finding one online, calling (or even texting) the person, and starting work the next morning. Any bureaucratic paperwork or what-have-you is deliberately ignored. The downside of this is... well, see above (employees have few rights because they may not even be employees ... it's seriously like the 12th century).

Same as you, I don't have to go through that either. I can get a new job at the drop of a hat. The most I'll have to do for maybe an established company is an application and a trial shift. Anywhere else you'v got the job, along with the same trade offs as in your's; hence why I'm still owed all that money.

 

[EditorOne]

Just to get you out of your rut: Tell me why you couldn't go to work for the government for a year in one of the inspection services that are supposed to be keeping the wildcatters toeing the mark? Tell me why you couldn't go to Toronto for a year and work for Mike Holmes and get some creds as one of the guys who fixes things other people screw up?

 

[Base groove]

Just to get you out of your rut: Tell me why you couldn't go to work for the government for a year in one of the inspection services that are supposed to be keeping the wildcatters toeing the mark? Tell me why you couldn't go to Toronto for a year and work for Mike Holmes and get some creds as one of the guys who fixes things other people screw up?

Q: Why I couldn't go work for the government for a year in one of the inspection services?

A: Good question. I guess I've always assumed I didn't have the requisite qualifications or experience for anything that would be comparable in wage (without working harder than I already am - i.e. oilfield work is out). At my age I would sooner pursue the field I've chosen through to entrepreneurship than I would exit the field and try to get established in a new one. I imagine that switching jobs would be like ... an $8/hr pay cut at least. I have enough undergraduate credits that Athabasca U will give me about half-a-degree's worth of transfer credits towards a program which I could do via correspondence; I was enrolled at one time but I never acted on it and have been kicked due to inactivity.

Honestly my skills are pretty much this: analysis and planning. I would make a good consultant, but with no education I basically have to stick with what I know to earn the money I need.

Q: Why can't I go to Toronto and work for Mike Holmes?

A: Another good one here... I guess, how can I say it ... I hate Ontario and I would be a fucking moron to leave Alberta in order work construction in Ontario. There are more framers from Ontario in Alberta than there are in Ontario.

Q: Why not get some cred as the guy who fixes other people's screw-ups?

A: There is ample availability to do that here, even as a 'freelancer' (or whatever) ... seeing as how there are so many Ontario framers out here, there is plenty of work to be found fixing mistakes. Personally, I would rather be dead (or maybe, cut both of my hands off*) than spend half the day using a reciprocating saw or "sawzall" to tear half a house apart. It's much easier to just put things in the right place to begin with but imagine how many Canadians would be out of work if we made that mandatory!

*would be incredibly difficult to get the second one to come off I think

 

[Happy]

Honestly my skills are pretty much this: analysis and planning. I would make a good consultant, but with no education I basically have to stick with what I know to earn the money I need.

I don't know what it's like in Canada, but here, you don't need a university degree for this. There are other pathways. Maybe you have something similar in Canada?

Besides, experience is usually of more value than an education.

 

[EditorOne]

Perhaps the next step is, as already discussed, abandoning the job paradigm and starting your own business.

That brings its own problems. It's really a question of which set of problems you'd rather deal with.

I think a lot of us have problems with authority, especially authority ineptly wielded or authority abused.

 

[Base groove]

Since posting this I've tried out another company and talked to about 3 more... had some visits... and basically took the week off

I'll be starting Monday on a 4-story high rooftop ....... very optimistic. My new boss sounds Irish. Anybody trust the Irish?

Thanks for all the advice peeps. Entrepreneurship has been my goal for years but I guess I required external validation that I'm not totally crazy./fucking things up...

 

[Minuend]

You are an ENFP, mate

 

[Base groove]

You are an ENFP, mate

It has occurred to me from time to time. I'm very bad at typing myself.

ENFP profiles do me no justice, but ... that doesn't mean much I know.

 

[TimeAsylums]

You are an ENFP, mate

It has occurred to me from time to time. I'm very bad at typing myself.

ENFP profiles do me no justice, but ... that doesn't mean much I know.

Would explain why you thought we were the same type (or at least similar,)

talk to @Fukyo, she believes ENFP for self too

Then again there is a thread where everybody thinks @Dor is an ENFP (no conclusions, I think), but he vehemently denies it

Fucking Ne mythical Unicorns

...losers...

 

[Base groove]

Would explain why you thought we were the same type (or at least similar,)

Oddly enough I actually had an explanation for that already. It was Se.

 

[Base groove]

talk to @Fukyo

I'm afraid.

 

[Minuend]

Dormouse is definitively not an ENFP

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Re:bank loans

Corporations are separate entities (like... whole new individuals, in a way) that can get loans independent of the credit of its owner/s/board members, + guaranteed government loans for various things as well. They're especially easy to form online. (All of this may be US specific, so do your own research)

It's not that hard to become a contractor, is it? I mean if my dumbass (but awesome) uncle passed the test...

 

[Base groove]

Re:bank loans

Corporations are separate entities (like... whole new individuals, in a way) that can get loans independent of the credit of its owner/s/board members, + guaranteed government loans for various things as well. They're especially easy to form online. (All of this may be US specific, so do your own research)

It's not that hard to become a contractor, is it? I mean if my dumbass (but awesome) uncle passed the test...

I'll have to talk to you some more about this, because you have definitely nailed an assumption of mine that I've apparently not addressed head-on.

Probably not worth it to attempt this in the US.

There are grants available that will match you up to $25k if you submit a good business plan... so even if I get approval $15k business loan and apply for this grant..I could even get the full monty.. I guess it's probably time to write the damn thing out again instead of just talking about it.

 

[Base groove]

Aw... how sad that TA deleted his poem from this thread. I was hoping it would stay...

Anyway, for anybody who has followed this story thus far... I have a bit of news.

I'm leaving town to go work up north in Fort McMurray, the only place in the world where dirtbags and lowlifes can go to earn rich man's gold. Most famous for the oilsands, Fort McMurray is the destination from sea to shining sea, when you need to make lots of quick bucks... It's going to be six days a week and twelve hours a day building apartments; I'm not sure if I can handle that many hours but it should put a few thousand dollars in my pocket rather quickly, which I desperately need. (As well as time away from the little woman, AND time away from INTPf because I can't really log in with my phone as I will be instantly banned) so, that's my news!

Can't wait to spend some time today rolling as many joints as possible............

Be back in 4 weeks, but I'll probably manage to find a way to get online, so it will really be like I never left.