Bronto's ban

[Jennywocky]

Yeah, that's basically how INTPc was run... little modding whatsoever. It died.
(well, actually, the few remaining users moved to INTPComplex. I think that's still around. But I've seen them ban members from time to time.)

Maybe we're screwed either way.

 

[The Gopher]

It's cute that some people think we're so easily manipulated that a user claiming to feel victimized would instantly result in ban. I know some peeps have a very low concept of us, but jeez...

I didn't say you were easy to manipulate I said if people can manipulate you then obviously they can manipulate you. I was stating an obvious fact. That said I personally hold the stance it's easy to manipulate anyone (myself obviously included) but not necessarily in drastic ways. The people who think they can't be manipulated are the perfect targets. Sure it might take years....

Also my comment was unrelated to the user claiming to be a victim that would be a stupid thing to be manipulated by.

Also... in regards to the emails. The police released statistics saying the majority of motorcycle thief's used vans to steal motorbikes. Speaking to motorcycle thief's it was discovered that only the thief's stupid enough to put a fast moving machine into a slow moving van (and all the other reasons why that's a bad idea) were caught hence the statistics were wrong. Basically you've only encountered disposable email services that suck. (Like the one I linked)

Also in regards to people not knowing what goes on in the mod box maybe that's part of the problem. You're all totally justified doing what you do with the information you have. But you have to realise you're talking to people who don't have that information. I remember you yourself being outraged at various bans I did without knowing all the information. What I'm trying to say is... I'm just being you from 3 years ago.

 

[420MuNkEy]

I used to run a forum that was far larger than this. I know what kind of shit goes on behind the scenes, and it can almost always be solved by saying "quit being such a pussy", but phrased politely, to the person making the complaint, or simply reminding users about blocks or forcing users to block eachother (though the admin backend, then informing the users of the moderation action taken). Heavy-handed approaches are the result of an ignorant lack of creativity except in cases of genuine attack (DDoS/Spambots).

Regarding registration, yeah, it can be bypassed. I don't care what tools you think you have, a mildly determined user who isn't retarded can register thousands of accounts on your forum that would be literally indistinguishable from a legitimate account. It's not expensive to buy a block of a few thousand legitimate working gmail accounts that look totally innocuous. You can also rent a large block of residential IPs to register from. All you have to do is code up a registration bot (OCR is easy enough these days where your standard vb captchas aren't going to be a roadblock). You randomize the useragent, randomize the registration interval, and just let it run. Throw in some randomized traffic, viewing a random amount of threads (within a defined range), random avatar setting, random settings changes, make posts with a few of them here and there, etc. It's pretty damn trivial to get hundreds of backup accounts, where the only way they could be countered is on pure tenuous speculation, where the admins risk cutting out a ton of legitimate users.

Edit: You could also just straight up pay someone on the deep web like $50 to do all that for you - they do it all the time and are really fucking good at it.

 

[kora]

He'll be back I'm sure isn't he an integral part of this place ? He'll want to make an account just to see what we say about him on this thread anyway. Right bronto ?

 

[The Gopher]

You know. What you could do is find someone who is well liked by every group yet who you also trust to not share buckets mod box data to the forum to do a very brief accountability check. Make them mod for a week. Not me of course I wouldn't want you to feel manipulated maybe someone like Yellow.

 

[Sinny91]

Not me of course I wouldn't want you to feel manipulated maybe someone like Yellow.

Isn't Yellow a queen of manipulation?

 

[The Gopher]

Isn't Yellow a queen of manipulation?

I thought that was Jenny...

 

[Kuu]

I didn't say you were easy to manipulate I said if people can manipulate you then obviously they can manipulate you. I was stating an obvious fact.

I didn't say *you* did, I said *some people*. Your obvious fact merely reminded me of the suggestions others made, they seemed to think that such was and frequently is the case.

Basically you've only encountered disposable email services that suck. (Like the one I linked)

Of course. But most ban evaders don't even seek the sucky ones. And it's not the only method to detect dupes. Too many rat themselves out because they can't change their stripes. And if they do change, isn't that the mod's final success?

Not everyone is a little machiavelli like you.

But you have to realise you're talking to people who don't have that information.

Except most of the incriminating evidence is out in the open. The silver lining of the temp-ban and diplomacy policy (which is why I'm spending all this time writing this) is that there remains a public trail of crimes and mod reasoning. If people don't bother to look for it, or refuse to see it, it is largely their fault, not ours.

Mind you, pursuing the policy of public explanations and diplomacy was quite contentious. There was (and still is) a lot of support for a policy of silent, ruthless kristallnacht. In the grim future of Hello Kitty, there is only war.

I remember you yourself being outraged at various bans

I did complain about several bans before, when certainly I was lacking information. But I don't recall ever going on an angry multi-month anti-moderation campaign, witchhunts or hypocritical requests.

Regarding registration, yeah, it can be bypassed. I don't care what tools you think you have, a mildly determined user who isn't retarded can register thousands of accounts.

We're quite aware of that. But that's unlikely to happen. The fire of retribution to fuel such vendetta does not burn bright in the INTP. That would effectively destroy the place, and they want to be a part of it, not kill it (just the mods). They come back laying low or not at all.

If this place ever got pwned to hell, I'd feel bad for about half an hour, then laugh about the pettiness of mankind and move on with my life.

 

[Jennywocky]

Regarding registration, yeah, it can be bypassed. I don't care what tools you think you have, a mildly determined user who isn't retarded can register thousands of accounts on your forum that would be literally indistinguishable from a legitimate account. It's not expensive to buy a block of a few thousand legitimate working gmail accounts that look totally innocuous. You can also rent a large block of residential IPs to register from. All you have to do is code up a registration bot (OCR is easy enough these days where your standard vb captchas aren't going to be a roadblock). You randomize the useragent, randomize the registration interval, and just let it run. Throw in some randomized traffic, viewing a random amount of threads (within a defined range), random avatar setting, random settings changes, make posts with a few of them here and there, etc. It's pretty damn trivial to get hundreds of backup accounts, where the only way they could be countered is on pure tenuous speculation, where the admins risk cutting out a ton of legitimate users.

Yeah, there it is. You know more of the specifics than I did (on actually how to do), but it's not hard if you have experience with it. Most people don't know, which is surprising; I've only run across 1-2 that really know wth they're doing and care enough to do it (lots of dupe jobs seem to be half-assed in practice), although I guess technically if someone was good enough to get away with it and never get caught, I'd never realize it.

The big thing is that last statement -- benefit of a doubt. Only the most hardass mods start banning folks they're not at least 95% sure about being dupes.

Edit: You could also just straight up pay someone on the deep web like $50 to do all that for you - they do it all the time and are really fucking good at it.

Hell, it's the deep web -- pay someone $50 to track down the mods, kidnap and sell them into slavery, and replace them with plants using their accounts under your control with none the wiser.

I thought that was Jenny...

No, no, it was Yellow, of course.

... and she doesn't work for me.

 

[Rook]

If this place ever got pwned to hell, I'd feel bad for about half an hour, then laugh about the pettiness of mankind and move on with my life.

Spoiler

Hmmm the internet needs more cat-walking-away-from-explosion pictures.

Silly humans, wasting their time on curing diseases and saving orphans from landmines when they can be pursuing this higher art.

 

[TBerg]

Fuck it. I demand neighborhood moderation. #MillennialLivesMatter

*lights his own threads on fire*

 

[The Gopher]

I did complain about several bans before, when certainly I was lacking information. But I don't recall ever going on an angry multi-month anti-moderation campaign, witchhunts or hypocritical requests.

Well... I'll leave it, I may just have an alternate perspective.

Besides it's not like I've gone on a angry multi-month anti-moderation campaign! I would expect to be much more effective. Now true the keyword could be anger but I'll take the win on a technicality.

Forgive the mistake you did quote me and trigger my pet peeve.

 

[nanook]

this discussion about hacking and social hacking / manipulation is why i don't want to place too much of my energy and expression here anymore. i've grown too suspicious of true thinking types. there is a handful people here who resonate with me and who knows, they may all be feeling types. and i don't know what the hell is driving the rest of you. you are about as trustworthy as the nsa.

Hell, it's the deep web -- pay someone $50 to track down the mods, kidnap and sell them into slavery, and replace them with plants using their accounts under your control with none the wiser.

now THAT would at least be worthy of all of the criminal energy or bad karma going into it....

what plants should we replace you with? i like watermelons.

 

[420MuNkEy]

Hell, it's the deep web -- pay someone $50 to track down the mods, kidnap and sell them into slavery, and replace them with plants using their accounts under your control with none the wiser.

The big difference here is that proven kidnappers with a long track record are hard to come by and expensive (a lot more than $50... I've checked) when you do find them, the script kiddies just looking to make some drug money are not

Nah, but in all seriousness, there's sites with entire escrow systems to facilitate this kind of thing whereas (as far as I know) there isn't for kidnapping, or at the very least the authenticity of the service being delivered isn't subject to auditing (upon request) by the escrow party prior to release.

This site may be small/lucky enough to have avoided reprisal thus far, but I've definitely witnessed smaller communities have various types of DDoS and bot registration retribution enacted upon them. Even something as small as a 20 person game server being DDoSed into oblivion. It's not really something that can ever be ruled out. So far it's just been luck or the general apathy of INTPs.

 

[Yellow]

Isn't Yellow a queen of manipulation?

I'm sorry, is there any doubt?

and you meant THE queen of manipulation, right?

Anyway, manipulation is a neutral art. It's all in how you use it.

 

[Black Rose]

@nanook

I know there is no ultimate responsibility such that free will is also illusionary but I was trying to convey that my development was hindered in such a way because a child's parents are significant is that process. If my mom understood me I would not be sad because I got the bond necessary to be mentally stable. If a child is abused or neglected then that means in most cased that the parent was not responsible enough to take care of that child.

Relative to other parents my mom did not give me the necessary encouragement for me to not be so repressed. She has autism and was suicidal and she married my dad who was schizophrenic and abused me. In my mind, a responsible parent would not abuse their child or let others do so. That has nothing to do with philosophical concepts like free will. It has to do with the fact that parental guidance or lack there of can either mess up a kid or make them into a healthy stable adult. Healthy stable adults understand what is good for a child's development. They know what a child needs and that makes them a responsible parent because they give the child what the child needs.

I was emotionally wounded because no one gave me what I needed emotionally or cognitively. My dad never taught me to b e a responsible adult. My mom told me he sold our food stamp for marijuana. We left him when I was six years old. Responsible adults don't do that. Responsible adult do exist because I have met people who have not messed up their kids. This is not philosophical, people who are not messed up do exist. The act in a way that is the right way. They treat others with compassion. They are not arrogant hateful malevolent or spiteful. They can control themselves. They can listen and not be judgmental. All the things a responsible person is supposed to be. They are capable of being good parents.

I don't hate my mom but she doesn't understand my emotional needs. I want someone to tell me I am a good person and that what I do matters to them. If I matter to no one I am worthless. Children should not feel they are worthless. I cry inside from all the anime I've seen where a person feels worthless. I'm crying right now. It shouldn't be that way. It's not right. Even if evolution is indifferent some people are capable understanding what is right or wrong. We cry for a reason. Evolutionary programming tells us pain is wrong. I feel that universally all pain is wrong. We don't need pain for humans to have moral character. We need people to understand pain is wrong. Intuitively we get that suffering should not happen even if it's never been felt before to the degree it has in so many others.

The universe has a purpose because you and I are the universe knowing itself. If consciousness is an epiphenomenon that does not matter because Gnosis exists. A hurricane still destroys thousands of homes well the eye of the storm is epiphenomenal. The eye has power. The eye knows it exists. The eye is the conduit of God. Everything I do effects everything that exists. Self-awareness is proof of God. If the universe was incapable of self-awareness you could not understand anything I have said. To each of us the universe should be as we are because we are that universe. I know my actions have consequences and that means I must be responsible for everything in the universe that I AM.

 

[nanook]

yes, health exists, but it exists elsewhere and does not serve as a standard in those, who don't have it. otherwise i would have to blame my father terribly hard for abusing me psychologically, but he really doesn't know any better! and yes, an avoidance of pain can guide someone to grow within healthy boundaries, as long a one is still healthy. unfortunately, once one is broken/neurotic, the avoidance of pain does not lead to a healing of that injury. it may help to avoid further psychological injury. but it might also get the whole person killed. for instance i would rather not earn money, because having a boss is too painful and suffocating for me. so when my source of money runs out, i may die.

i am not familiar with the concept of epiphenomenon.

i don't doubt that rudimentary "self-awareness" exists. it's required for evolution. in the sense of particles interacting with each other in a manner that suggests an orientation towards a higher holarchic level. there is a form of (local/decentralized) "knowledge" of atoms being part of a molecule, for instance.

in a similar manner you are going to be responsive towards the higher context you see yourself in it. the mechanics behind that are essentially the same.

but everyone is already responsive. it can't be helped. it's not a should or a choice.

and it obviously doesn't look like what we think it should look like (like "responsibility"). because evolution is buggy as fuck.

NOW we are off topic

 

[Grayman]

@Amnekitty

I wish I could help you AK

I will say though that you really do have the temperament of a kind and thoughtful person. You certainly deserve the love and understanding that you desire. I truly wish you well and hope that you find it some day.

I think if you can find the strength to grow and heal apart from your current situation. If you can get oit and engage people you will find someone or people just like you who want to have and create an environment full of such love and understanding.

 

[Reluctantly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5TLlaKWqN8

 

[bvanevery]

I don't know why people are pretending that the thing he was banned for was calling Architect a clueless fool

He also told Architect to shut up. Which I personally think is more hurtful than calling someone a clueless fool, but it's a matter of taste. "You are not allowed to speak here. So sayeth me, the King of all I survey." Kinda sucks doesn't it?

To some it may seem laughable, but especially to newcomers in a forum, denying someone speech is quite alienating and ostracizing. Not everyone has the brass balls to say "Oh yeah? Fuck you and the horse you rode in on!" in response to such things. A lot of people feel shut down, not sure how to deal with it, not sure they are wanted around, unwelcome.

Particularly women. You ever notice that in testosterone poisoned shithole internet venues, there are usually few women? "None at all" is hardly uncommon, and there's a reason for that.

as opposed to the fact that he didn't agree that calling Architect a clueless fool was some totally unwarranted and heinous act.

Referring to the 1 act in isolation is a strawman. How totally unwarranted and heinous is it to be a jerk over and over and over again?

He's probably been a turd in the past so the moderator's annoy-o-meters were off the charts, but he still got banned for annoying moderators.

He got banned for being a jerk to posters over and over and over again.

And then probably mouthing off to the mods that he would continue to do it over and over and over again. You can't control me nanny nanny boo boo! I don't know that for sure, but I can guess, based on his recent (presumed) reappearance here.

The funny thing is, I've actually got a PM from back in January about some mod wondering WTF is up with this Bronto guy, and assuring me he wasn't representative of any kind of forum consensus. I don't remember being terribly offended at the time, but I found it interesting that a mod was given to wonder what was going on with him, and felt a need to say something privately to me about it. Sort of a heads up, there's something about this Bronto...

Being a jerk to other posters violates the Terms of Service of many websites. Many websites give little to no leash for doing that, just a few warnings and then you're gone. This does maintain a baseline of civility and adult behavior, at the expense of sometimes becoming bland.

INTPforum is far more permissive about what you can do, before someone feels the need to say, HEY, SERIOUSLY, KNOCK IT OFF. FFS!!!

When someone doesn't value the idea of "not being a jerk to others," and does it routinely, then eventually you have to get rid of them. If you don't want a forum full of jerks. 'Cuz the endgame is, non-jerky people won't stick around for routine abuse.

I wish Bronto could have grown and matured faster than his emotional need to wound others, because I think he also has many likeable qualities. He does need to "put in the work" of getting through his own issues though, instead of inflicting them on other people. Lots of people have their own life issues to contend with, and almost nobody needs an extra heaping helping of drama from someone else to go along with it. If you've got your own bag of shit you're carrying around with you, the civilized thing to do is to deal with it and make it smaller somehow, not just fling it randomly around at whoever triggers you.

Alternately...

...in the apocalypse, we can go back to doing forums "the old way". The impolite person is immediately slain by the stronger combatant. It leads to less males (typically) for other purposes, so not the greatest social pattern. I wonder how polite it actually made anybody? Maybe it was always just an ongoing equilibrium of getting rid of excess males, in some bigger picture sense. Like sacrificial ants.

Or maybe a lot of the "being a jerk" behavior was displaying male dominance, and daring someone to cross blades with them, so they could kill you "legitimately". Leading to strategies of jesting and apology on the part of weaker males, lest the big drunken bulging bicep bullies crack their skulls.

I've never liked bullies.

With the evolution of guns though, strength was no longer at a premium. Skill might matter, particularly for a quick draw, but even a weak, untrained person can kill you with a gun. They just have to want to do it.

I was on a martial arts mailing list back in the day where tempers flared sometimes. It taught me to go train instead of talking about it, for several reasons. ;-) I remember one story about a bar fight between a "karate guy" and some redneck. They had words (erm impolite words like an internet forum mkay?) and karate guy wiped up the bar with redneck guy. Then made the mistake of congratulating himself on a job well done, went back to drinking his beer. Redneck guy went home, got a shotgun, waited in the parking lot until closing time. Karate guy came out and redneck blew him away. Story told by redneck's defense lawyer, on the mailing list. Got off with manslaughter due to the emotional rage of having been publicly beaten up by karate guy.

Another story was of some white male tourist in Indonesia, who thought it would be funny to slap the hat off a local's head. Like what's this little brown monkey gonna do? Well he's gonna pull out a knife and kill you (which he did). In his culture, "served him right". Don't even know if he was prosecuted.

In the real world, on the street, there are a lot of powder kegs who want "respect". And if you don't feel inclined to give it to them, they may kill you for it.

Returning you now to the partial moral vacuum of your internet forum, floating in free fall from the common standards of society. I guess it's good not to have a body.

 

[Sinny91]

In the real world, on the street, there are a lot of powder kegs who want "respect". And if you don't feel inclined to give it to them, they may kill you for it.

Returning you now to the partial moral vacuum of your internet forum, floating in free fall from the common standards of society. I guess it's good not to have a body.

Epic.

 

[bvanevery]

Too bad The Matrix doesn't have theme music as simple and recognizable as The Twilight Zone. "A dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind..."

 

[420MuNkEy]

He also told Architect to shut up. Which I personally think is more hurtful than calling someone a clueless fool, but it's a matter of taste. "You are not allowed to speak here. So sayeth me, the King of all I survey." Kinda sucks doesn't it?

To some it may seem laughable, but especially to newcomers in a forum, denying someone speech is quite alienating and ostracizing.

Shut up, idiot.

Did I just "deny" you speech? No, no I did not. You're still free to post. If you don't want to that's your own damn business. If I proved you wrong, you may also not feel like responding and be "shut down". I, nor anyone else, should ever be held responsible for your emotional state or be expected to coddle you like an itsy-bitsy fucking child.

"Shut up" is a perfectly valid, natural, and commonly used response to one who is perceived to be talking out their ass. This is the context in which it appears to have been used. If you take it as a command, you very clearly don't understand the language. It's more of a linguistic "Ugh" or an eyeroll.

In the real world, on the street, there are a lot of powder kegs who want "respect". And if you don't feel inclined to give it to them, they may kill you for it.

You seem to spend a disturbing amount of time thinking about killing people who post things you find rude, because you post about it a-fucking-lot.

 

[bvanevery]

Shut up, idiot.

You're just a forum poster who's habitually rude. Around here, mods give people like you leeway for some reason. I'm not sure why I do, I guess because I can't actually do anything about you. Other than report your posts, which I suppose I should start getting in the habit of.

Yeah. Let's start with this post of yours. There's no reason I should be trying to patiently explain anything to you anymore. Instead, let's see how many months it takes for you too to be gone, like Bronto. It's not like you exercise any restraint whatsoever, in fact you actively lord it in people's faces that you have some kind of inalienable right to be foul with them.

 

[The Gopher]

I guess if you were a mod you would Bvan everyone. *distant single cheer*

 

[420MuNkEy]

You're just a forum poster who's habitually rude. Around here, mods give people like you leeway for some reason. I'm not sure why I do, I guess because I can't actually do anything about you. Other than report your posts, which I suppose I should start getting in the habit of.

Yeah. Let's start with this post of yours. There's no reason I should be trying to patiently explain anything to you anymore. Instead, let's see how many months it takes for you too to be gone, like Bronto. It's not like you exercise any restraint whatsoever, in fact you actively lord it in people's faces that you have some kind of inalienable right to be foul with them.

You've demonstrated yourself to be nothing less than an emotionally stunted child who has repeatedly expressed sympathy with those who (even strongly hinting at your own desire to) use force against those who say words to you that hurt your delicate little feelings. Fuck you and everyone like you.

I usually don't start in with the insults until I, myself, have been very obviously deliberately attacked under the transparent veil of "civility". Apart from that I just make no attempts to mollycoddle delicate sensibilities, because I'm an adult talking to adults. I speak plainly because I'm not trying to hide what I'm saying. There is clarity in being curt. I'm not going to play your fucking game. Either you agree with my ideas or you don't. Don't want to hear them? Add me to your ignore list, idiot. I call you an idiot, because that's the obvious solution and you not utilizing that is a demonstration of your lack of knowledge and foresight. It's not just a frivolous insult for the sake of being mean, it's a deliberately stated observation of your failings.

It's simpler and more clear to say "eat a dick, idiot" than "I strongly disagree with your positions as well as find you thoroughly distasteful and willfully ignorant", so that's what I do.

 

[bvanevery]

I usually don't start in with the insults until I, myself, have been very obviously deliberately attacked under the transparent veil of "civility".

I note your probably deliberate use of the word "usually", because it didn't happen here. I posted something long about why Bronto got banned, and also what can happen to people in the real world. Wasn't about you.

You took it as an opportunity to start attacking me, because my values are clearly not your values, and you feel you have an inalienable right to attack people. When called on it, you continue in the same vein, because you enjoy it. So I'll just keep reporting your posts every time you do it, and we'll see how long it takes the mods to actually deal with you.

I'm not sure I find your use of the word "usually" to be credible anyways. But I'm only interested in tracking your behavior to the degree it affects me. As to what you do "in general", the mods will figure it out to their satisfaction.

Make no mistake you would have been long since gone in most forums I inhabit, for very few of the kinds of posts you tend to make at my expense. You seek places where you can get away with what you do; let's see how long INTPforum remains one of those.

 

[420MuNkEy]

I note your probably deliberate use of the word "usually", because it didn't happen here. I posted something long about why Bronto got banned, and also what can happen to people in the real world. Wasn't about you.

No shit I deliberately used the words I do. I'm not just throwing words at a screen randomly and seeing what sticks.

Any "rudeness" in my post was obviously also deliberate. It was deliberately used because it was relevant to the topic and helped clarify the point I was trying to make (which you seemed to have missed entirely, nonetheless).

You took it as an opportunity to start attacking me, because my values are clearly not your values, and you feel you have an inalienable right to attack people.

No. You didn't understand the post if that's what you think. The only "attack" was in the first line of the post, which is directly after revealed to have been deliberately staged (thus insincere) as an example. I really don't know how you don't seem to grasp this.

Apart from this one thing, anything that could be described as "rude" is relating to the discussion of ideas, not individuals (with "you" being used as a general placeholder). It's not an insult, it's me describing my opinions about your stated ideas. The reason the language is deliberately plain is described in my previous post.

I could be verbosely loquacious and obfuscate my vernacular with obtuse and esoteric verbiage thus rendering my musings inaccessible to all but the most linguistically adept, but fuck that. I'm not trying to hide what I'm saying, so I just say it.

 

[bvanevery]

Why will I take the time? Mainly to QFT.

I, nor anyone else, should ever be held responsible for your emotional state or be expected to coddle you like an itsy-bitsy fucking child.

You might think you're addressing people in general here. However, you also said it to me, after telling me "shut up, idiot". Other people aren't required to context switch as rapidly and indiscriminately as you do. Whether you meant to aim this remark directly at me or not - and I think you did - you certainly have made it clear you have a hostile attitude towards posters in general who violate your value system.

In other forums this is called being toxic, and such people are gotten rid of if they can't / won't control themselves. So again, keep it up. You'll either find out you're free to say whatever you like, or you're not.

 

[bvanevery]

Another QFT.

Add me to your ignore list, idiot. I call you an idiot, because that's the obvious solution and you not utilizing that is a demonstration of your lack of knowledge and foresight. It's not just a frivolous insult for the sake of being mean, it's a deliberately stated observation of your failings.

Nobody's required to use an ignore function in a forum. You might like that everybody would do it that way, because then you can keep exercising your own behavior completely unrestrained. But how about people in forums adopt this solution instead? They designate moderators, who enforce some rules of civility. And if you break them enough times, you're gone.

You seem to be arguing that nobody has a right to moderate you. That everyone has to ignore you, or be mercilessly ridiculed for not doing so. Well, it may not actually be that way. You'll find out.

It's simpler and more clear to say "eat a dick, idiot" than "I strongly disagree with your positions as well as find you thoroughly distasteful and willfully ignorant", so that's what I do.

This also says you're not willing to make minimal efforts to be polite, that you'd much rather be rude. Most of society doesn't accept that behavior, and that was what my earlier long post was mostly about. Again, in INTPforum you'll find out one way or another. There's only so many times anyone can try to persuade you.

 

[420MuNkEy]

You might think you're addressing people in general here. However, you also said it to me, after telling me "shut up, idiot". Other people aren't required to context switch as rapidly and indiscriminately as you do. Whether you meant to aim this remark directly at me or not - and I think you did - you certainly have made it clear you have a hostile attitude towards posters in general who violate your value system.

I'm hostile toward ideas with which I disagree, rarely people unless simply responding in kind.

The "shut up, idiot" wasn't even really directed as you. Again, it was blatantly insincere and used as an example to underline my point countering the ideas you posted. You don't seem to be very comfortable with the nuances of the English language. Perhaps it's not your first language and genuinely you just misunderstand the meaning, but that doesn't change what the intended meaning is.

Nobody's required to use an ignore function in a forum. You might like that everybody would do it that way, because then you can keep exercising your own behavior completely unrestrained. But how about people in forums adopt this solution instead? They designate moderators, who enforce some rules of civility. And if you break them enough times, you're gone.

Nobody's required to treat you like a child either. If you're bothered by other people voicing their opinion (which you've repeatedly expressed that you are) and you complain about it, then you're either an idiot who can't think of how to solve this problem with the tools available to you or a crybully who's seeking to use their own outrage to exert control over others.

You seem to be arguing that nobody has a right to moderate you. That everyone has to ignore you, or be mercilessly ridiculed for not doing so. Well, it may not actually be that way. You'll find out.

No, simply that I'm going to say whatever the fuck I want and not concern myself with whether or not I get banned. I have no right to be on this forum at all. I don't own the server, the network, the software, etc. I have no claim to it. It's not mine. If someone who does have a claim to it wants to remove me, they can. That fact, however, will not change the opinions I voice or how I choose to voice them.

This also says you're not willing to make minimal efforts to be polite, that you'd much rather be rude.

This is me being "polite". This is exactly how I'd speak to my own mother. This is not unusual for me. You may live a sheltered life, but in the "real world" I've grown up with, people don't tiptoe around their opinions to protect feelings. Being "rude" would be me sticking my fingers in my ears and going "lalalalala I can't hear you lalalalala" or not seriously engaging with your stated ideas because of irrelevant factors like the words you chose to express them.

 

[Rook]

For some reason I read all bvanery's posts in the voice of the 'wabbit' hunter in them there looney tunes.


(Ah Elmer something)
[Ooh a spanish version]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAZ8W6rW1UM

 

[Kuu]

You've demonstrated yourself to be nothing less than an emotionally stunted child who has repeatedly expressed sympathy with those who (even strongly hinting at your own desire to) use force against those who say words to you that hurt your delicate little feelings. Fuck you and everyone like you.

Add me to your ignore list, idiot. I call you an idiot, because that's the obvious solution and you not utilizing that is a demonstration of your lack of knowledge and foresight. It's not just a frivolous insult for the sake of being mean, it's a deliberately stated observation of your failings.

Time to go to the whole forum ignore list for some time.

All of this was wholly unnecessary.

There is no censorship of ideas, but personal attacks and flamings will not be tolerated. If anyone doesn't like it they can go elsewhere.

 

[TBerg]

I don't know why, but Bronto's transgressions seemed to arise out of more innocence than 420's.

He dindunuffin.

 

[Grayman]

It is a matter of integrity for 420. Saying 'you missed the mark' isn't honest as 'you are fucking stupid'. If you choose #1 you are denying the person the truth in what you really feel and think.

 

[Pizzabeak]

This forum shall see its first redaction of a perm ban if it's the last thing I do.

 

[Kuu]

Defense of innocence can only be accepted the first time.


Notice above yet another classic case of hypo-critical behaviour.

While simultaneously berating his opponent for not being capable of ignoring him, he himself proves incapable of ignoring his opponent to such an extent he feels compelled to attack his person and not just his ideas. Oh, the irony!

 

[Fukyo]

And then probably mouthing off to the mods that he would continue to do it over and over and over again. You can't control me nanny nanny boo boo!

That is what went down. And what went down whenever he was given warnings. If I draw a line I have to enforce it. If a user tells me point back he doesn't give a shit about adjusting his behavior I can't very well turn a blind eye to that.

 

[Grayman]

That is what went down. And what went down whenever he was given warnings. If I draw a line I have to enforce it.

He is doing what he is doing because he believes it integral to who he is, not to spite the mods. He isn't going to change for you or anyone else. If you dont want someone who is brutally honest without concern of the consequences around you have to perma ban him. This one isn't going to change.

 

[TheScornedReflex]

What happened to a mod popping into a thread just to say 'calm down ya'll or else" ? The mods need more tolerance.

Also can I be banned for calling everyone fucking retards that should choke on their own shit? Or that they all should have been aborted or would I be banned if I said it specifically to one person?

I'd ask in the thread of insults but it's closed which is a little insulting since it outright stops any communication at all.

WHY DID YOU JERKS BAN MUNK? HE'S A NICE GUY IF YOU HAVE A BACKBONE TO NOT TAKE HIM PERSONALLY. JERKS

.... IDIOTS

 

[Cherry Cola]

The ban is overly harsh. More than just punishment, a permanent eviction is a big fuck you to bronto. They tellin him they dun think he evah about to get his shit together so theys sayin piss off an uh don't come back like evah cause yous a crazy sonova bitch ok

 

[Minuend]

They did explain the ban in length. I've been gone from this forum the last year, so I haven't read all bronto's posts or know his temporary ban history. But if he's been misbehaving for a long time and still continued to name call after repeated warnings, I can understand the ban. He had warnings, he must've known he was at the end of the rope. And he still chose to be hostile. You kinda force the mod's hand if they've already given you a final warning. And it's probably not fun when you have to continuously PM someone to babysit their behavior. They're not paid for this after all, and keeping someone who require that much work and attention around...

 

[Grayman]

'forced' them to ban him. Lol. Oh I 'had' to ban him. Poor me.

Id make that monkey eat shit. He an adult. Respect that. You an adult. Respect that. Do what needs doing. Respect that.

 

[Kuu]

What happened to a mod popping into a thread just to say 'calm down ya'll or else" ? The mods need more tolerance.

Implying we don't.

Take the time to investigate if Munkey has been warned in the past, then I'll be glad to discuss tolerance. I think it was a couple of months ago that he was temp banned. I recall several people reported complaints about him, iirc it was the presidential race thread. His reply in PM in regards to the incident made it clear he didn't much care if he got banned because of his postings. Since I cannot provide PMs, I'll provide this instead:

It's not "anger" or "violence", it's being a cunt. I'm a cunt. That's it. I'm not furious and I've typically got a smile on my face regardless of whether or not I'm calling someone a "fucking idiot" or expressing my desire to see them experience misfortune. I'm a borderline sociopath, I don't really have anger.

WHY DID YOU JERKS BAN MUNK? HE'S A NICE GUY IF YOU HAVE A BACKBONE TO NOT TAKE HIM PERSONALLY. JERKS

.... IDIOTS

If people make personal comments, no one should be surprised they get taken personally.

More than just punishment, a permanent eviction is a big fuck you to bronto.

Golden rule. Don't break it. There just might be consequences. All those little fuck yous he scattered around, perhaps he could have thought twice about them. Someone should have warned him! Oh wait.

And you're arguing for him based on how he might feel? Isn't that in absolute contradiction to everything he stood for?

 

[redbaron]

Hey guys we're in kindergarten now. Have to make sure everyone's sheltered from reality, don't want no strong opinions around here - everyone just keep smiling through your teeth and pretend you're nice.

The goal is to remove anyone capable of independent thought and deter any more of them from coming here.

 

[redbaron]

The ban is overly harsh. More than just punishment, a permanent eviction is a big fuck you to bronto. They tellin him they dun think he evah about to get his shit together so theys sayin piss off an uh don't come back like evah cause yous a crazy sonova bitch ok

You're much more enjoyable when you're not tryna type lyk u r kool n shit u no?

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

Hey guys we're in kindergarten now.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!

*eats paste*

 

[nanook]

in our culture a child is someone who can be told how to appear right now and conditioned to become what he ought to become later and a parent is someone who has both the will and the power and i guess the skill to shape the child according to his ideas.

perhaps our culture is a wee bit psychopathic about how it uses language in a way that takes this reality for granted, as if it were the whole absolute and objective truth?

either way, there IS a structural reality to this, on ONE LEVEL of the human psyche.

in the trinity of transactional analysis it is revealed how there is a psychological or structural relationship between child and a parent that locates both of them in a duality on the same level.

the child can eventually be bent by the parent, because it has a desire for getting along with the parent. the parent has a nagging sense of responsibility for the actions of the child that provoke the parent to respond to the child's actions by bending them according to the ideals of the parent.

there is also a structural reality to a higher level, that integrates both child and parent and this level is called "grown up". the "grown up" is distinct from both child and parent.

the grown up can not be bent by a parent because he has no need for a relationship with the parent, on the parents terms. and he can not be provoked by the child's potential mistakes, because he has no intrinsic need to control the destiny of the child.

now we can still make a distinction between a detached grown up and a human grown up.

the human grown up can feel compassion for the destiny of a child, that evokes a desire for giving good guidance for the sake of the child. but there is no compulsion to force guidance on the child. no parental identity is threatened when the guidance is rejected.

in feeling compassion for the child the human grown up is essentially understanding of the responsibility of the parent, as well as of the needs of the child, he enters both perspectives at once, and manages them differently from how each would express themselves, out of their original dual separation.

the detached grown up won't bother to pay any attention to the destiny of the child or the accuracy of the wisdom of the parent. if the child's desires or actions lead to bad consequences "fuck that stupid child, he hasn't deserved any better" (or "fuck me"), if the convictions of the parent are not doing anyone any good "the rules are still the rules, it's how we do things in rome" (or "i just hang in there"). that is to say the detached grown up will remain unconsciously hijacked by positions of both child and parent. he only avoids the deep experience of both and looses both the sensitive passion of the child and the honest care of the parent.

these examples are not representative of the whole spectrum of possibilities.

some forum users are really happy to act right out of the duality of either child or parent, to justify their part and usually to hide the other aspect of their identity altogether. some try really hard to get into the position of the grown up, but often end up with a rather detached version of it ...

i feel that when interacting with strangers, the genuine willingness to let go of insisting on a certain outcome of interaction and also of the desire to predict outcome, is the key to avoiding both cool detachment or getting lost in dualities.

if you're interested in reading more about transactional analysis and the likes:
http://www.kenwilber.com/editor/TAGT.pdf

 

[Tannhauser]

I read the forum rules now, and they are actually quite reasonable. Given the rules, I'm sure it is a completely fair ban. But you kind of also have to ask how much consistency there is in enforcing those rules.

Like, what is this for example:
http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=24886

You would certainly never see Bronto do stuff like that.

 

[Kuu]

Hey guys we're in kindergarten now. Have to make sure everyone's sheltered from reality, don't want no strong opinions around here - everyone just keep smiling through your teeth and pretend you're nice.

The goal is to remove anyone capable of independent thought and deter any more of them from coming here.

Repeating that over and over won't make it any less false.

There's plenty of people capable of independent thought on this forum (hi guys), and they're not banned. Only difference is they can follow the very, very simple rules we have here. People can believe whatever they want, be right or wrong about it, however strongly they want, as long as they follow those. Expressing strong disagreement is not conditional on being a, like he said, cunt. It is precisely for the protection of independent thought that personal attacks, flaming, baiting, and other such behavior is not acceptable. Respect is important for discourse. As we've repeated ad-nauseum.

INTPs already encounter much animosity against them in "reality" and other places in the internet, so I don't really know how they could be sheltered from such. The point of this place is to be able to discuss without the tedium of dealing with pointless hostility which is abundant everywhere else, and has a tendency to hamper if not destroy communication. Otherwise there is little difference between this place and any other.

Distinctly I recall several campaigns of yours to get members you strongly disagreed with banned... but I suppose that was ok because you don't/didn't like them.



I could close this thread, not discuss anything at all. But here we are.