Brainstorming the idea of being an ISTP and not an INTP

[Spirit]

Before I create the ISTP test here are a few things about an ISTP in the Grip. If you can relate to most of this during portions of your life, you could be an ISTP.

“Securing love or public esteem (Fe) will bring me wholeness. (Personality Junkie - ITP)

Obsessiveness/Workaholism


I often get an idea or a project that I am working on and I am drawn to completing it. The more complex a project, it drives me to complete it I want to know everything about it. This would be a grip experience. It's like an obsession with understanding MBTI and how I can use it. I do not care necessarily about having the knowledge for the sake of knowing it. I do not have the urge to talk about it in theory. I want to know it to use it, so I am completely obsessed with it for a purpose.


ISTP are typically loners. Not because they want to be, its just easier to do what you want to do when you want to do it by yourself. Waiting for other people cause a slow down in getting things done. We may have friends and trusted colleagues but because explaining what seems obvious takes time and and ISTP if capable will want to do it themselves because they learn by doing, communicate by doing love by doing.



Sometimes projects are bigger than they realize and this requires more work to think about it and do the work. If the ISTP is in learning mode, interacting with others is a distraction because how can you focus on learning and creating hands on, while talking about it. Don't bother me I am working. Working and learning is the same thing



Because working and learning is the same thing to an ISTP, they may not know they are in the Grip experience. They all of a sudden recognize they haven't spoken to another person in hours or that its 4 am and they are still working on a project they started at 6PM the previous day. They may need to rely on a trusted ally to punch them in the face and remind them they need to re engage with other people. I am dragging you to dancing or go shooting or go to a medieval event to reachieve balance with other people

Slippery & Elusive Emotions


Fe is in the subconscious, so all of a sudden you start responding to loves songs or reacting to movies about old friends that you served with that died in the war. You start to feel these feeling out of no where. You look over at your kids and you say how awesome they are in your mind. You normally do not hug your kids often but you realize it has been a while since you told them you love them or you gave them a hug. It causes a strong feeling inside.



Every time you get surprised in an emotional conversation with someone you care about, the default setting is that you do not feel anything in the moment. It is like an out of body experience. You are there but no feelings are present. You are just operating based on cues from the other person. You feel rushed when someone asks you how you feel. If you haven't thought about it or prepared for the conversation, you are forced to give the "appropriate" answer. You probably do not feel it in the present moment. It usually takes a few hours for an experienced ISTP to feel something from a surprised emotional moment and it could take a few weeks for an inexperienced person. If an ISTP is telling you they love you it is because they have been feeling it for a long time but never said anything. They will not be able to tell you if they haven't been thinking about it. Force them and you are going to leave disappointed and feel non romantic vibe.




ISTP have deep feelings after they have been processed. When it is time to move on they can usually do this in front of everyone the are around. Deep down they could be still hurting but they do not know where the hurt is coming from. They can compartmentalize this and move on to other people or events. Again, it takes time to process and the ISTP is processing it small chunks at a time. You would never know it by looking at them.



Conflict-Avoidance, Passive-Aggressiveness, & Desire for Affirmation


ISTP are not dicks to people on purpose. They just have a job to do. They will respect your space while you respect their space. Don't get in the way of them doing/learning. They need to experience life first hand so they want to be around the happenings because that's how they learn. This means they will have an even disposition. You may look at them and think they are cold but strike up a conversation with them on something you have in common and you will see them light up.



ISTP's do want to have some validation for themselves, they will often sacrifice their own opinion if they haven't gotten their fill of approval for the month. This may be just enough social approval to get them through. They are not going to go out on a campaign to get approval but because they spend so much time outside a group, the few times they are inside a group they do not want to rock the boat


ISTP go through cycles of needing people and not needing them. This is even stronger when in the grip. Remember, ISTP need to experience the world through their senses.


ISTP tend to be passive aggressive. They do not want to rock the boat. An ISTP could be getting angrier and angrier and all of a sudden snap. They could all of a sudden just avoid you. The will fight you if they have to but won't if they don't. It's easier to just avoid it.

If you think you are a dick as an ISTP, then you are probably and ESTP in an SeNi grip. Physically want to hurt you to prove a point.




Tell people to straight up honest with you. If not it is easy for the ISTP to make assumptions. Those assumptions can cause you to be passive aggressive with the people close to you and cause all kinds of issues. TiNi the skeptic in the tin hat, All kinds of faulty "logic", remember ISTP use the current context to base their logic. It is their default mode. So lies will produce a faulty logical framework. ISTP have a challenge fixing the real issue because the real issue is not apparent. Don't push them to use Ni to figure it out, they will just turn into the skeptic.



ISTP learn by doing/work, so you need to have a variety of experiences in order to grow. You have to experience the world using your senses. Go eat somewhere you have never been, drive different vehicles or read different types of books. It all will give you frameworks to be ready to act in the moment. If you do not experience learn, you won't grow and you will go into the grip.



Practice using your senses and harnessing the abilities that come from using them. Tastes, smells, touch, hearing, visual cues must be trained. This will help you become aware of your environment. You must push yourself to understand the cues for how you feel and so you can recognize the symptoms. Force yourself to be honest with your partners or close friends with your deep feelings. talk though painful topics and these experiences will help you learn how to recognize how you feel much faster and grow in your relationships.

 

[h0bby1]

Every time you get surprised in an emotional conversation with someone you care about, the default setting is that you do not feel anything in the moment. It is like an out of body experience. You are there but no feelings are present. You are just operating based on cues from the other person. You feel rushed when someone asks you how you feel. If you haven't thought about it or prepared for the conversation, you are forced to give the "appropriate" answer. You probably do not feel it in the present moment. It usually takes a few hours for an experienced ISTP to feel something from a surprised emotional moment and it could take a few weeks for an inexperienced person. If an ISTP is telling you they love you it is because they have been feeling it for a long time but never said anything. They will not be able to tell you if they haven't been thinking about it. Force them and you are going to leave disappointed and feel non romantic vibe.

i can relate to a lot of things, the part about delayed emotional reaction, i think it's really linked to istp ability to maintain homeostasis, and will even get into sort of hard internal struggle at time to remain 'cool headed', and relaxed, and control my homeostasis, but then when i'm in a relaxed environment the stress and anxiety will come in when i'm out of trouble, and can last for pretty long time after, but sort of more diffuse and not impacting drastically my behavior or homeostasis either

it's something that can even be bothering, specially when dealing with Fe persons who will try to get any cue from your feelings, and as istp will tend to block or assimilate them in their own way, and not letting easily their emotions taking over, but still will have long standing impact on them somehow even if they always do great at keeping them below critical level, and then Fe type will think you don't feel anything, or are emotionless or don't care, but in a way i don't see how going over emotional about the issue and displaying more emotion will help anything either lol

but i can relate to pretty much anything else in that post =) i can often be prone on overworking, specially sometime to deal with stress, or to put my mind at something productive that reassure me greatly to feel i have control on some process like programming or mechanistic thing, it's appeasing to me often =)

 

[h0bby1]

A trait in ISTP's over INTP's is that they'll be much more action oriented. For example, with the many ISTP programmers I know, they'll be much more likely to dig in and start writing code, with two feet! While I'll want to sit back, understand the problem, maybe do some modeling ... all of which will disgust them.

some time ago, i had a discussion with some persons also if they prefer to use libraries or framework that has good logging and error reporting , or if it's better to have good documentation about the api, to figure out bug tracking etc, i think it's also related to this

personally i prefer to have good error reporting and bug tracking, and dumping and state information about the framework, rather than having exhaustive documention about the framework but poor logging and error reporting

i hate this a little with windows framework, how with their heavy object and derived class design some function can fail in some obscure sub class code without it's really easy to figure out what's going wrong in a debugging session, but you need to make the calls and initialize everything as it's specificed in the documentation of the functions a bit blindly, and adding macros and stuff without the internal framework functionning being really exposed

i find this bothering, i prefer to be able to figure out the state of the program at runtime with good debuging/logging features to be able to have a good idea quickly of what the program is doing, and what is going wrong, than having to rely entirely on functional diagram or documentation

 

[Spirit]

i can relate to a lot of things, the part about delayed emotional reaction, i think it's really linked to istp ability to maintain homeostasis, and will even get into sort of hard internal struggle at time to remain 'cool headed', and relaxed, and control my homeostasis, but then when i'm in a relaxed environment the stress and anxiety will come in when i'm out of trouble, and can last for pretty long time after, but sort of more diffuse and not impacting drastically my behavior or homeostasis either

it's something that can even be bothering, specially when dealing with Fe persons who will try to get any cue from your feelings, and as istp will tend to block or assimilate them in their own way, and not letting easily their emotions taking over, but still will have long standing impact on them somehow even if they always do great at keeping them below critical level, and then Fe type will think you don't feel anything, or are emotionless or don't care, but in a way i don't see how going over emotional about the issue and displaying more emotion will help anything either lol

but i can relate to pretty much anything else in that post =) i can often be prone on overworking, specially sometime to deal with stress, or to put my mind at something productive that reassure me greatly to feel i have control on some process like programming or mechanistic thing, it's appeasing to me often =)

The first time someone told me they loved me I stood there with a blank look on my face when they asked me do I feel. I wanted to say, can I get back to you but I didn't say anything. Those damn feeler types...

I decided to go to church with one of my ex's and then a few days later she asked me if I felt anything when I was there. I felt this blank look on my face and I could see in her face that she couldn't understand how I couldn't feel anything just because I went to church and heard people talk.

When an ISTP has these feelings for abstract ideas/people overriding their personal analysis (Ti/Se/Ni), it is from a result of a grip experience of stress TiFe loop. This being the desire to have public approval and be part of a group.

I didn't want to "rock the boat" and didn't need to lash out , so I gave the blank look, which was just as bad to a feeler as telling them they had a "wrong feeling".

 

[Spirit]

You cannot type anyone based on a single thing like that.

I don't know you but I wonder what it was about bodybuilding that attracted you to it.

It is a focus on the body, to increase its strength, right? Could that come out of a lack of sense of self? That by doing physical activities and exploring the muscle structures one gets a sense of self, defining the self by sensing its perimeters?

Some autistic people like to be captured in things that put pressure on their body. As if they have a reduced sense of body.

I do not think he was typing only on the base that I was into bodybuilding. There were other posts that he looked at. Anyway, it was a fleeting thought. After considerable evaluation of myself I found that I am an ISTP based on a variety of factors.

By lifting weights or doing anything requiring muscles what you basically do it work with pressure. The mechanism is gravity but you put your muscles and body against mass or weight. And in doing so you discover this duality and find your boundaries that way.

And so you get a feedback loop. It is a form of bio-feedback. In so that when you strain your body and finds the centre of opposing pressures, you can identify your self and locate your identity accordingly and by doing so define, through the object of your body, where you are inside yourself. It then becomes a self-re-enforcing loop, sense the body, position the self, train the body, find the boundaries, position the self inside.

You are describing working out?

So it could have little to do with MBTI, that you like this sort of physical thing.

Yes, if this were the only reason that was used to determine whether I am an ISTP. Given the Framework of JUNG and MBTI, I am an ISTP.



Look I know its fun for you guys to ponder all the ideas in the universe and break everything down and disprove every framework. This is fine. In fact I am sure it's a blast. However, what are we doing here? Are we evaluating the viability of Typology theory or are we looking at each person within the context of the framework of the theories, Jung, MBTI, Socionics or "visual typing"?

In this thread, I proposed to determine within the context/framework of the Jung and MBTI theory what are the characteristics of an ISTP. This is not a thread to determine whether MBTI or Jung Typology is real, fake or incomplete.

 

[h0bby1]

The first time someone told me they loved me I stood there with a blank look on my face when they asked me do I feel. I wanted to say, can I get back to you but I didn't say anything. Those damn feeler types...

I decided to go to church with one of my ex's and then a few days later she asked me if I felt anything when I was there. I felt this blank look on my face and I could see in her face that she couldn't understand how I couldn't feel anything just because I went to church and heard people talk.

When an ISTP has these feelings for abstract ideas/people overriding their personal analysis (Ti/Se/Ni), it is from a result of a grip experience of stress TiFe loop. This being the desire to have public approval and be part of a group.

I didn't want to "rock the boat" and didn't need to lash out , so I gave the blank look, which was just as bad to a feeler as telling them they had a "wrong feeling".

i guess i can be a bit like that, but it's also this that can make them good at handling crisis situation, or trouble shooting, because having good capacity to approach situation with analytic stand point

from what i could see, istp are also called analyzer in mbti , they are good at gathering information on their surrounding and analyzing them, but being in situation that require them to act on emotional decision will make them uncomfortable

my girl friend often tell me i'm unemotional, but it's not even true, istp still also have something with their body and perception of physical self, and are sensitive to emotion as well, but they are just not confortable acting upon emotional things, or basing their decision or action on mere emotional response, prefer to analyze things out more in depth, and eventually delaying their answer either than to rush into action without double thinking , and having a good view of the situation

with church well yeah, i respect religion, but i don't see much going on in church either, if it make some people feel better i'm fine with it lol

i have seen also a good article about the grip with istp there

http://personalitycafe.com/istp-articles/76785-recognizing-inferior-function-istp.html

 

[Spirit]

I find it interesting in a crisis to solve a thinking problem istp react swift and accurately but freeze for feelings crisis.

 

[h0bby1]

I find it interesting in a crisis to solve a thinking problem istp react swift and accurately but freeze for feelings crisis.

well i think it's specially when they are in situation where they can feel pressurized to express their feeling, or emotions toward something, it can throw fthem in state of confusion, or having the impression the other person is over stepping their boundary of intimity or something

the thing that can aggravate it, i saw also istp often display their emotions in very light manner, like i've read for an istp already rising an eybrow, or letting little cue of emotion out can mean they are already about to blow off lol

i seen also that with how they never seen to suffer from stress too much, i had a bit hard time to figure this one out, but in fact i think i see what they mean by that, as it's true even when i can be under stress, like being on tight dead line, or having to perform under pressure, it's true someone watching from exterior point of view would not really have the impression i'm stressed, cause i more try to keep my head clear and always act relaxed or something, and to eliminate emotion and panic to focus on the task

when dealing with people who can be Fe, they will have hard time to figure out an istp emotional state, cause they would expect a more explicit and clear expression of their internal feeling, that istp can be very akward at expressing, and will look a bit bland or blank, or not really registeering what's going on, which come out also as an insult to istp, because they are generally very aware of their surrounding and alert, but people who expect this to come as strong emotional expression with istp will be thinking they don't care, or are not stressed or don't feel anything

i've read the worst thing someone can do to deal with istp in the grip is to ask them how they feel, they will just need lone time to rationalize the situation, and there is not much anyone can do, or help to rationalize the situation at hand, and their own inner psychological/emotional reaction

 

[Spirit]

For a few people, due to life circumstances, the amount of development does not follow either pattern. Following are some of the circumstances that could influence the amount of development:

During childhood (about 3-12 years of age)

1. There was negative feedback when the dominant was being used

2. Family life called upon a nonpreferred function to be used in order to survive (e.g., an alcoholic or abusive parent or sibling)

3. There was positive feedback for using nonpreferred functions

Later in life

4. Chosen jobs required extensive use of nonpreferred functions

5. Parenting skills demanded use of nonpreferred functions.

In any of these situations it may be difficult to determine the type preferences of the person; thus, the pattern of development for that person may also be unclear.

There is an inner drive to grow, to become more aware. Not only did Jung observe the eight functions, he also noticed and described the inner drive to grow and become more conscious. This drive often gets blocked by the stresses of life and sometimes by the expectations of other people. However, it continues to press us forward toward our dreams.

Adapted from Gary Hartzler and Margaret Hartzler, Functions of Type: Activities to Develop the Eight Jungian Functions (Telos Publications, 2005) Used with permission.

 

[Variform]

This may have happened to me. I grew up in a dysfunctional family. My father was a withdrawn shy but social man. A figure in the background. He was not masculine and a bit autistic.
My mother was overbearing, she taught me how to fight. She put herself in the foreground with her stories of being victim of her mother whom she fought with and felt badly treated by, or being the hero when she worked and talked back to authority.

My brother had a different personality. I can't type him because he too has been under her clout. He will deny how badly damaged he is, still living at home at 45 years; he never left. But he was the oldest and the standard to which I had to live up.

He was social, friendly, liked to help people with mechanical problems, like broken stuff, he was good with fixing things. He was bullied and mistreated, an omega wolf more than anything up higher in the ranks. If he made a mistake he would apologize, whereas I could not get that out of my throat. He had more years of schooling, so was a wise ass that never missed an opportunity to show off his IQ, which I think was above average.

I feel that I was forced to live up to that standard which was impossible because of the age difference in terms of personality growth, education, he was years ahead of me, and him being favorite of my mother because she liked his character better than mine.

In being compared, my life started out revolving around the word 'but'. 'Your bother is smart, so are you BUT...' And then some reason or excuse would follow as to why I wasn't quite there yet. '...you don't apply yourself / do your homework / you don't listen (to you brother!!) / are too stubborn / don't want to be helped.'

So my personality was not allowed to develop along natural lines. My brother won't admit to being favorite because he and mother are two hands on one belly, as we say here. My father died when I was 18 from cancer and he took over the father role, which I resented and he was not aware he did. Once, after a fight with mother, in which I yelled mean words, he got angry and said: "How dare you treat MY[b/] mother like that!" Thus saying she was more his than mine.

My mother would never admit her focus was on him, not me. I was just the brute, who yelled at her, used demeaning cuss words and a failure she didn't understand at all, asking me 'what is wrong with you' but I could not say, because she was the problem, but as kid you just don't realize that yet.

As a result today I do not know who I am and the fact I have a personality disorder disallows me to truly find out and be who I should be if my personality had been allowed to develop naturally.

When I was diagnosed my mother went in for the hetero anamnese. I hope I got that right in English, it is where family is asked question during diagnostic procedures. She could tell the shrink no more than that I was a normal kid, and in doing so denied the fact that we were always fighting. I was fighting with her and my brother. She would mention I walked on the front side of my feet, a bit of an autistic trait. But overall she kept up appearances because she could not tell; the truth, because that would mean she had to strip to for a spanking, and own her part of the dysfunction.

My mother always believed that she did right by her kids. Because she was mistreated as a child she had "promised myself that I would not make the same mistake with my own children." And yet she did. And she is blind to it and never owned what she did.

So she lied by omission during my diagnosis back in 2001.

I don't know what type my brother is. He is social, helpful, or maybe he isn't, but he knows very good how to manipulate to be seen as such. I think he is introverted. But even that is hard to say. He likes objects. He is materialistic. Always had money enough to buy gadgets. Likes cars and won't compromise on quality and safety. So he drives Volvo's. He tinkers, can repair a car and a VCR because he is either arrogant or unafraid to open it up and put it back together. He has an IQ but wasn't either motivated enough or too behind in some classes or subjects to continue his education.

Here we have high shool, the M-range or medium range of schools, what americans call college I believe. And then not university but a H-range, for higher education. Only after that you get university. So he stranded after a year on the H.

 

[Spirit]

I don't even know where to begin with that Variform. It is difficult to type people online you can have a conversation with but nearly impossible to accurately type someone's that cannot answer for themselves.

What I am learning is to type someone you need to have a them use the tools, online tests or worksheets to gather a baseline. Then you need to talk about their life experiences. Finally, talk them through what is important to them.

Keys to finding your type is performing a test and honest self exploration. This will allow you to focus on functions, interaction and innate vs learned behavior.


You will determine their type and then the polarity of the functions that they prefer to use from the ones they do not prefer.

Linda Berens had this to say about self exploration:

Use more than one lens. That will help increase the likelihood that you are holding models lightly since there are some look-alikes. If you know what the look-alikes are, then you can more easily help someone find the explanation for why they are drawn to another pattern. In the above example, a skilled facilitator might have taken Joe’s rejection of his reported to as an opportunity to explore more and encouraged Joe to look deeper. Often rejection of a reported type is an indication that the reported type on an instrument is not the best fit and other times, it can be an indicator of a misunderstanding of the type pattern. This facilitator would have pointed out to him that those with ENTP preference often look friendlier than some other types with T preferences because of other influencing factors. In the background, such a facilitator would know that the ENTP pattern goes with a ‘Get-Things-Going’ Interaction Style. With this style there is a drive to involve and be involved with an engaging energy that often looks like what is stereotypically attributed to a preference for Feeling. Also, the ENTP pattern includes not only N and T, but also engaging extraverted Feeling to connect with others. In fact, one of the themes of the ENTP pattern as a whole is a desire to be diplomatic and consider others.

Reference patterns, not dichotomies. Realize that the typology lenses of Temperament, Interaction Style, and Whole Type are patterns, not sums of parts. Living systems are organized in patterns, not made of random parts put together. These patterns have a core driver that influences which processes or dichotomies serve the driver of the pattern the best. Therefore, patterns precede processes (aka dichotomies).

Encourage exploration with holistic, narrative descriptions. This is becoming increasingly more difficult because we have become a bullet point culture. Often the facilitator has to really push the client to read and reflect. Seek out descriptions that are not artificially composed, but are holistically written such as those in the Understanding Yourself and Others® series of books as well as others.

Recognize that there other aspects of who we are might be influencing the behaviors and meaning making rather than the type information. This is why I made Outlook an integral part of the CORE Approach. Our outlook influences our behavior and our outlook comes from many things including culture, ego development, relationships, stressful events, life conditions and more. In the end, this realization may be the biggest one to help us hold models lightly

 

[Spirit]

well i think it's specially when they are in situation where they can feel pressurized to express their feeling, or emotions toward something, it can throw fthem in state of confusion, or having the impression the other person is over stepping their boundary of intimity or something

the thing that can aggravate it, i saw also istp often display their emotions in very light manner, like i've read for an istp already rising an eybrow, or letting little cue of emotion out can mean they are already about to blow off lol

i seen also that with how they never seen to suffer from stress too much, i had a bit hard time to figure this one out, but in fact i think i see what they mean by that, as it's true even when i can be under stress, like being on tight dead line, or having to perform under pressure, it's true someone watching from exterior point of view would not really have the impression i'm stressed, cause i more try to keep my head clear and always act relaxed or something, and to eliminate emotion and panic to focus on the task

when dealing with people who can be Fe, they will have hard time to figure out an istp emotional state, cause they would expect a more explicit and clear expression of their internal feeling, that istp can be very akward at expressing, and will look a bit bland or blank, or not really registeering what's going on, which come out also as an insult to istp, because they are generally very aware of their surrounding and alert, but people who expect this to come as strong emotional expression with istp will be thinking they don't care, or are not stressed or don't feel anything

i've read the worst thing someone can do to deal with istp in the grip is to ask them how they feel, they will just need lone time to rationalize the situation, and there is not much anyone can do, or help to rationalize the situation at hand, and their own inner psychological/emotional reaction

I can relate to so much in this post.

 

[Spirit]

Architect has mentioned many times that he suggests INTP go into programming. I want to counter and say ISTP's that are not mechanical but into computers should try becoming a System Analyst.

The reason is because often time the everything you need to know about the system is right in front of you and you can keep digging and finding out the inner workings of the system. It is typically project based and plenty of alone time.

You are not relying on yourself to come up with something that has not been created before but you can be creative in your associations between systems. As long as you understand the "framework" you can figure out what is needed to solve the problem. If you work on a variety of systems it can be really interesting.

 

[Spirit]

I found another nugget about the title Mechanic for ISTP.

The term "mechanic" is mainly used to describe our way of thinking, not a specific activity. Ti-Se takes apart systems (typically with some sort of basis in the real world--could be economics, could be sports, could be engines) and examines it piece by piece, then puts it back together from the ground up into a cohesive, internally consistent whole where each little cause and effect is understood.

 

[Spirit]

I wonder if the Se questions are written too abstract in the tests for ISTP to recognize the difference between Se and Ne/Ni?


I am going to list a few test questions and as a Thinker which choice sounds more appealing?

Which word better describes you?

realistic or visionary
seasoned or spirited
down to earth or imaginative
factual vs conceptual
adaptable or organized
well round or deep



1. Which statement characterizes your approach to life?
a. Just do it
b. Check out the alternatives

2. When you are trying to understand something do you
a. press for specifics
b. get an overall picture and fill in the details later

Which statement are you more likely to make?
1.
a. I'm interested in people's experience, what they do and who they know
b. Im interested in peoples plans and dreams where they are going and what they envision

2.
a. I'm almost always aware of how things look
b. I may not notice much about how things look at least not right away

3.
a. If I enjoy a particular activity, i'll engage in it frequently enough to do it well.
b. Once an activity is familiar to me, I want to change it or try something new

4.
a. I am not much interested in ideas without some practical application
b. I like ideas for their own sake and enjoy playing with them in my imagination

On a vacation you are more like to

1.
a. My physical surroundings are important to me and affect how I feel
b. Atmosphere isn't all that important to me if I like what I'm doing

2.
a. return to a vacation spot you love
b. go somewhere you've never been before

3.
a. Have a good meal at a restaurant you really enjoy?
b. explore new cuisines







I laugh at most of the questions attempts to capture Se. 9/10 an ISTP will pick the string of intuitive answers instead of the sensing answers because the intuitive answer seems smarter or more intelligent

 

[Spirit]

In Jung's theory, aesthetics and symbols are opposites; you can't clarify what's immediately apparent (Sensation) at the same time you're inferring what isn't yet apparent (Intuition). In the same way, ideals and concepts are opposites; you can't determine something's value to you personally (Feeling) at the same time you're classifying it impersonally (Thinking). One is always choosing between these opposites, granting one more importance than the other. -L. Thompson

 

[h0bby1]

i think it might have also a bit of spinoza or even platonist undertone in those dichotomy

the way i see it, emotion are most likely to happen when faced with some unusual or exceptional, and when you see something all day, it become sort of an automatism, and the mind can predict better the behavior by differents manner, and it trigger less emotional response

in spinoza it's found a bit in similar term also, that emotions appear by absence of "rationalization" even rationalization is maybe not the good word, but at least by absence of previous experience and analysis of them, emotions are more often felt when the person is faced with a new situation that he doesn't have experience with

as istp are also lot focused on experience, and analyzing these experience, they can easily see being dominated by emotion a bit as a failure, or as lack of experience in the situation, and can feel inadequate , or not productive or not having enough information to know what to do of the situation, and it can put them uncomfortable, or uneasy, and prefer to take a step back to analyze and reflect what's going on, rather than taking risk of doing something wrong

as istp can generally be pretty quick and accurate into estimating a situation, they can often bypass the whole emotional stage, and don't try to develop this side of them too much, prefer to jump directly at stage of efficient analysis of a situation, and bypass the stage of 'new experience' all together, and they are not comfortable when faced with situation where they are faced with something they can't really understand, and being pressurized to take action on a situation that don't estimate to know enough about, and just going with feeling or intuition, istp are not very good at that

i often read istp are more conformtable in stable and simple relaxed environment, and always try to maintain their surrounding chilling and calm, or at least pleasant for their senses, and can be rather sensitive to a whole lot of things even if they prefer to analyze things and can be quick and efficient enougth at taking the measure of a situation, even when it require fast action and fast decision, but always prefer to have minimum of analysis and avoid to have to act on the impulse of emotions or feeling or intuition

but i think there are other theory of the mind from philosophy also that underly jung theories, to a degree before neurlogy, psychology and philosophy were two domain that were rather close, jung also studied a bit mysticism, and how it can be described in hinduism, and his theories are probably based on other system as well

the idea of sensible world and world idea is straight out of plato, and thinking/feeling can also be found a bit in spinoza, and those concept of focus inward and outward can also be found in many religions or cultures as well, jung is not something all that brand new, except he managed to put it in a more synthetic manner, with more study, and making his theories a bit more in tune with the scientific method, rather than philosophy or ancient mysticism, but those idea are not entirely novel with jung either

 

[Spirit]

I agree. The problem I am facing as I continue to study typology is that people seem to only see one part of this process, the test. They fail to understand that the other part of the process is intense self reflection and guided introspection. If they are looking for a test to tell them exactly who they are and what they think then the theory of typology will always fail because there is no way to create a test that will cover every possible scenario in a person past, present or future. Typology is not a math test. It is a springboard to analysis and some people are not willing to be honest with themselves and dig.

Typology, guided introspection and self reflection will help a person understand their preferences and tendencies.


Typology will never be like a law in science because human behavior is not like natural laws.

 

[Spirit]

The fundamental challenge in behavioral forecasting is that there are literally thousands of variables to choose from — all of which could theoretically be correlated with people’s decisions and actions: income, age, local weather conditions, political affiliation, commodity prices, family size, musical tastes, you name it.

Randomness of human behaviors.

Individual interaction rules can be interpreted in a deterministic way only up to a certain extent, due to the ultimate unpredictability of human reactions. It is the so-called bounded rationality, which makes two individuals react possibly not the same, even if they face the same conditions.

 

[Spirit]

There is abstract that states human behavior can be predicted at around 93%


Limits of Predictability in Human Mobility
https://www.sciencemag.org/content/327/5968/1018.abstract

What kind of evaluation would it take to get 93% probability in typology?

 

[h0bby1]

well already i'd say now the thing is more into neurlogy, all the thing with philo-psycho it's more history now, and they more try to get to a functional description of the brain based directly on observation and knowledge of brain structure rather than introspection, or abstract theories like freud & jung, now it become more cognitive science, and the whole thing of freud or jung have very little if any anatomical basis to them

utlimatly as far as science goes today, i don't think you can really affirm if the jung typology actually represent something 'real' as to how the brain function, or how to determine someone's actual type

i guess for me it's also lot due to circumstances, and large part of the type a peson will exhibit, specially if it's really unbalanced toward an end, it still for me has strong relation with development, more than innate

even jung in some paper also picture all extreme of each type as being pathological to a degree

but the concept that jung deal with are also as i said pretty old things, the in/ext, feeling thinking, sensing vs idealism, they are all concept that are opposed for long time by plenty of thinkers and philosophers, but i'm not sure it's really something that has strong biological basis, and is not that much innate or anything, more adaptation to the environment the person grow in, and the kind of task or challenge is faced with etc

i'm sure you could train anyone to get better at any side of the typology, specially as childs, for me ideally a balanced person should score quite in the middle for each parameter, anyone who is too strongly on one side for me it's not really healthy or balanced anyway

 

[h0bby1]

and there is also lot of connotation with belonging to a type or another, anything that is scientific will always tend to show thinking capacity as superior function, it can be found in any scientific theory up to descartes, darwin etc

if you follow theory of evolution, what characterize the superiority of humanity in term of brain development is neo cortex, advanced language, advanced abstraction , and it's supposed to be the more developped part of the brain, human don't have much more feeling than animals, or anatomically, it's not the main area that make difference between human and animals

in a book i've been reading lately pretty deep into cognitive science, it refer the semantic analysis, the post semantic boostrap as evolved consciousness, or superior consciousness, in the same time, it's also a theory on bootstrapping that say neo cortex also developed on top of lower area, like area of more emotions, and perception of self in general

and that large part of the brain also developed more in relation to the need to mannage larder social group, and large communities, so also large part of neo cortex is developed in relation to understanding of other, and in jung it's often shown than feeler are supposed to be more charismatic, or the whole confusion there can be between feeling and more empathy in the sense more able to understand others, but even capacity to integrate into social group and display positive behavior inside of group is also largely impacted by analysis of the situation

intuition i don't know how it can even be quantified, or how you can relate this to anatomical or how it can fit into evolution schemes, or into development of psychology in relation to evolution, or how it can actually quantified in any manner, in animals or human, it's not easy lol

but also jung sometime i have the impression he also at some point broke loose from the more serious academic things, and become also similar to theosophist, and writing a bit some thing more in a vulgarisation effort, and more addressing to a public for vulgarisation of certain concept, more than being really serious and rigorous academician

so lot of concept that are found in jung also have mystical, or even borderline cultish outlook, and in a way, he almost tried to make a sort of blending of some element from mysticism/religion with also method of more academic and 'scientific' origin, a bit like theosophist wanted to approach religion from a rational - philosophucal or social standpoint, jung went a bit that road with psychology, and he wanted to make a science that would a bit replace religion in the sense giving tool to people to develop their mind in an healthy/sane manner, with his theory of individuation, he can be a bit the father of self development kind of trend in a way

but in term of really description of human mind and behavior, jung is still very limited, and far to be cutting edge today of that kind of science, now it's more neurology and cognitive science, and his paradigm of the mind is not really in adequation with latest up to date finding in those area, and the typology i think is still very attractive because it feel a lot of social stereotype about the mind, and like old dilema of feeling/thinking , and sensorial/idealism, on a bit a vulgarized manner, tainted with mystical elements, but it's far from being really accurate in depth description of the functioning of human mind

and i often find also people who identify with a type also do so because the type are often described in rather positive manner, rather than also all the unhealthy or pathological dynamic that can underly a person who is too much on an extreme of a type, and just keep the positive element associated with it, but remove a bit the pathological side that can be also associated with it

it's also linked with other things i've read from jung that he also open the idea that even things that we consider as pathological are still positive psychological reaction that are normal and natural, and just a reaction to some situation, or past, or he was quite optimistic regarding also human mind, and also tended to portray mental condition in more positive light than being mere pathologies that are anormal and should be eliminated, so it can be also appealing to many people if only for this reason

 

[Variform]

I laugh at most of the questions attempts to capture Se. 9/10 an ISTP will pick the string of intuitive answers instead of the sensing answers because the intuitive answer seems smarter or more intelligent

I see what you mean, however, isn't that a bias?

 

[Spirit]

and there is also lot of connotation with belonging to a type or another, anything that is scientific will always tend to show thinking capacity as superior function, it can be found in any scientific theory up to descartes, darwin etc

if you follow theory of evolution, what characterize the superiority of humanity in term of brain development is neo cortex, advanced language, advanced abstraction , and it's supposed to be the more developped part of the brain, human don't have much more feeling than animals, or anatomically, it's not the main area that make difference between human and animals

in a book i've been reading lately pretty deep into cognitive science, it refer the semantic analysis, the post semantic boostrap as evolved consciousness, or superior consciousness, in the same time, it's also a theory on bootstrapping that say neo cortex also developed on top of lower area, like area of more emotions, and perception of self in general

and that large part of the brain also developed more in relation to the need to mannage larder social group, and large communities, so also large part of neo cortex is developed in relation to understanding of other, and in jung it's often shown than feeler are supposed to be more charismatic, or the whole confusion there can be between feeling and more empathy in the sense more able to understand others, but even capacity to integrate into social group and display positive behavior inside of group is also largely impacted by analysis of the situation

intuition i don't know how it can even be quantified, or how you can relate this to anatomical or how it can fit into evolution schemes, or into development of psychology in relation to evolution, or how it can actually quantified in any manner, in animals or human, it's not easy lol

but also jung sometime i have the impression he also at some point broke loose from the more serious academic things, and become also similar to theosophist, and writing a bit some thing more in a vulgarisation effort, and more addressing to a public for vulgarisation of certain concept, more than being really serious and rigorous academician

so lot of concept that are found in jung also have mystical, or even borderline cultish outlook, and in a way, he almost tried to make a sort of blending of some element from mysticism/religion with also method of more academic and 'scientific' origin, a bit like theosophist wanted to approach religion from a rational - philosophucal or social standpoint, jung went a bit that road with psychology, and he wanted to make a science that would a bit replace religion in the sense giving tool to people to develop their mind in an healthy/sane manner, with his theory of individuation, he can be a bit the father of self development kind of trend in a way

but in term of really description of human mind and behavior, jung is still very limited, and far to be cutting edge today of that kind of science, now it's more neurology and cognitive science, and his paradigm of the mind is not really in adequation with latest up to date finding in those area, and the typology i think is still very attractive because it feel a lot of social stereotype about the mind, and like old dilema of feeling/thinking , and sensorial/idealism, on a bit a vulgarized manner, tainted with mystical elements, but it's far from being really accurate in depth description of the functioning of human mind

and i often find also people who identify with a type also do so because the type are often described in rather positive manner, rather than also all the unhealthy or pathological dynamic that can underly a person who is too much on an extreme of a type, and just keep the positive element associated with it, but remove a bit the pathological side that can be also associated with it

it's also linked with other things i've read from jung that he also open the idea that even things that we consider as pathological are still positive psychological reaction that are normal and natural, and just a reaction to some situation, or past, or he was quite optimistic regarding also human mind, and also tended to portray mental condition in more positive light than being mere pathologies that are anormal and should be eliminated, so it can be also appealing to many people if only for this reason

I guess this is the reason businesses have moved from MBTI to the DISC test for evaluating their personel.

The main key I keep coming back to is that there are two types of testers. Those that are reflective that answer the questions honestly and those that project what they wish to be. These tests are tools to help us understand ourselves and our preferences. Human beings have patterns and those patterns cause us to make decisions in a certain way. Events can happen that cause us to break those patterns but it has to be a serious tramua. But even if the pattern has been broken we still will create a new pattern and our decisions will be based on this.

Testing gives you an idea of your patterns. I think they could add questions regarding stress and how you handle that. If you are working with someone that knows how to get honest information out of a person. You will see those patterns in them in the tester. I read a book on influence and from that I see why people have distinct patterns.

If you can determine how the person is influenced and their preferences you can see the pattern more clearly. The tests do not do this adequately and some testers aren't really taking it seriously or they may not understand the terminology presented in the question.

 

[Spirit]

I see what you mean, however, isn't that a bias?

It could be. I know that sometimes when I read a question, I question the question.

 

[h0bby1]

I guess this is the reason businesses have moved from MBTI to the DISC test for evaluating their personel.

The main key I keep coming back to is that there are two types of testers. Those that are reflective that answer the questions honestly and those that project what they wish to be. These tests are tools to help us understand ourselves and our preferences. Human beings have patterns and those patterns cause us to make decisions in a certain way. Events can happen that cause us to break those patterns but it has to be a serious tramua. But even if the pattern has been broken we still will create a new pattern and our decisions will be based on this.

Testing gives you an idea of your patterns. I think they could add questions regarding stress and how you handle that. If you are working with someone that knows how to get honest information out of a person. You will see those patterns in them in the tester. I read a book on influence and from that I see why people have distinct patterns.

If you can determine how the person is influenced and their preferences you can see the pattern more clearly. The tests do not do this adequately and some testers aren't really taking it seriously or they may not understand the terminology presented in the question.

lot of question in the online test, i have hard time to really answer yes or not, it depend lot on the context, i generally tend to score istp type, but i prefer also more extensive description of the type, like the description of jung cognitive type, to see what each side entail, it make more sense than the tests =)

and yes many thing can be reflected in the tests, as ideal version of self, or it's generally not hard to fake the test to get the answer you want, once you know a bit the typing thing, it become rather easy to see which part of the type the question is testing

it's not like it require a skill specific to each type in order to be typed as such by online test, it's not a skill test, and more based on personality, which can make it more popular and easy to vulgarize, compared to more technical kind of things, or skill based test, like IQ test, but online IQ test are not very reliable either

 

[h0bby1]

but the thing that disturb me most with test, is that they only focus on the positive aspect of the typing, and not on the negative side by lack of the other side, so it always looks rather partial, it's why it's better to real the whole of jung cognitive type article, to understand what it entail to be this or that type for this or that function, both negative and positive side, test tend to be a bit mono sided to describe only the positive side of the typed function, and not a global view of what it mean for the person with a bit deeper psychanalysis method

 

[Spirit]

I thought about that as well. If they added the negative then it would help make it more clear to the tester. I speak to some ISTP and I notice that they idenitfy more with the Se Cognitive type. The do not really analyze stuff like I do. They are into extreme sports but they think they are TiSe but seem more like the SeTi.

Wouldn't a strong Se user want to experience life and test the limits of the physical, sight,sound, body and everything? Then figure out how they can increase or decrease the sensation? Whereas a strong Ti user thinks about a concrete object or system (Something physically already created) and uses his environment to test his analysis.

When I was a program manager, we would get a new program and I jump into the system to take it apart to see the inner workings of it.


If I were using Se first wouldn't I have a strong desire to go out and experience life and then come back home and think would be an after thought?

An TiSe would be obsessed with figuring out how things work. Looking for things to analyse to take apart. With Se Dom, If your first thought when you see something is not to take it apart to see how it works, I don't think that the person is TiSe. Just to be clear, this is not about possibilities of future applications. It is how the thing currently works or is made. It is not taking it apart in your mind, it is using your senses to take something apart.

example.
I see a treehouse. I think it is held up in the tree this way, Let me go check it out and see how it was made by physically taking it apart to see it the pieces.

SeTi wanting to be obsessed with experience the physical. They want more and more physical experience. Louder music, spicier foods, new experiences anything they can do to be in the moment. You do things to activate your senses. It is not to figure out how it is put together. This person does not want to spend time thinking about the experiences they are more interested in doing the experience. They live for the moment. This person does not want to sit still they have to be doing something so their senses are activated. No time for analysis. They are more interested in having new experiences than thinking about the experience.

example
I need to do something lets go ride fast on my bike. Why do I want to do this I need to feel something with my senses. I want to feel the wind on my face. I want to hear the roar of the engine. I must smell the exhaust fumes. I live for this moment. I can't wait to race again ...


Btw, SeFi this would be a person ok with doing this stuff by themselves where as an SeTi would be more interested in have the experience with a bunch of bros and have beers later and swap stories.

 

[Spirit]

There is a test created on celebrities types for ISTP vs INTP. I don't know if I can post the link here.

 

[Variform]

There is abstract that states human behavior can be predicted at around 93%


Limits of Predictability in Human Mobility
https://www.sciencemag.org/content/327/5968/1018.abstract

What kind of evaluation would it take to get 93% probability in typology?

Quantum computers. (I am against the development of quantum computing; it should be made illegal.)

 

[Spirit]

Quantum computers. (I am against the development of quantum computing; it should be made illegal.)

Why?

 

[Variform]

Why?

Because of the way they work. They are different from normal computers. There are certain types of calculations they can do much quicker. This capacity will be abused by intelligence agencies, to find connections between people. They will be the first to have access to the machines. Because no encryption will be safe. This will affect our UN Charter recognized right to privacy. Not that the intelligence agencies respect that.

There are other ways to use them. E.g. in certain fields of research. Maybe brain research. I do not think as a species we are ready for ICT nor for more understanding of the human brain. It will be abused. Our capacity to understand is larger than our morals and values.

 

[Spirit]

TiSe could be anyone that has dedicated their time to use their body as a tool and use it effectively. I'm not saying all athletes or gym rats are dom TiSe users. It is one indicator. The key is understanding why they using their body as a tool. Let's look at users of their bodies as a tool.

 

[Spirit]

http://mbtitruths.blogspot.com/2013/06/brain-type-manifested-in-athletic.html

What Makes Sense

Its seems like all or almost all athletes are SPs. Think about it. SPs are generally athletic and good at sports. Other types can be too if they practice and train hard. SJs could reach the top through consistent routines, NFs through motivation and team spirit, and NTs through their analytical skills. But in most cases, one would probably need the interest, natural talent, and knack for sports found most often in the SP. And to get to the professional level, you have to be incredibly good. Much less than 1% of the population is a professional athlete. It only makes sense that the vast majority of them would be SPs.

To narrow it down even further, there would be more ESxPs than ISxPs, because the higher your Se, the more physically coordinated you are. Pro athletes are nothing if not physically coordinated. Sports require more Ti than Fi since you need to analyze the game and not consult your feelings. When combined with Se, Ti also helps with spatial awareness, timing, and aiming. Also remember that most men are Thinkers, and that most pro athletes are men (at least in the public eye). ESTP is the ultimate athletic type; they have the build and the brain for sports, especially football

ESTPs are well conditioned and built, more so than any other Type. Whether male or female, they’ll pump iron and/or exercise. Their lives are centered around their bodies, which often resemble Greek gods’. This fixation often leads them into sports, where they can excel in many fields.

Not all sports demand strong Extraverted Sensing. Fencing, for example, is very strategical and often requires you to think outside the box. For running and swimming, you don't necessarily need to be coordinated and aware of your environment, particularly with long distances; you can pretty much just disconnect mentally and daydream. Cards, which ESPN oddly considers a sport, definitely doesn't require that much Se - arguably more Ni

 

[Spirit]

Because of the way they work. They are different from normal computers. There are certain types of calculations they can do much quicker. This capacity will be abused by intelligence agencies, to find connections between people. They will be the first to have access to the machines. Because no encryption will be safe. This will affect our UN Charter recognized right to privacy. Not that the intelligence agencies respect that.

There are other ways to use them. E.g. in certain fields of research. Maybe brain research. I do not think as a species we are ready for ICT nor for more understanding of the human brain. It will be abused. Our capacity to understand is larger than our morals and values.

So this is an ethical thing for you?

 

[Spirit]

I recently enrolled in a class and as they went on and on about the concepts we were to learn, I started to zone out. I just wanted to do the project. I wanted the teacher to say "Here is the system, dive in and figure it out". Is this abstract vs concrete learning?

 

[Spirit]

In the mind of an ISTP simplified explanation of the Cognitive Functions

Ti - Analysis
Se - Sensing
Ni - Creativity
Fe - Approval

Te - Organization
Si - Memory
Ne - Possibilities
Fi - Values


Another interesting take on ISTP

http://funkymbtifiction.tumblr.com/post/84358434418/game-of-thrones-sandor-clegane-istp#tumblr_notes

 

[Analyzer]

I found another nugget about the title Mechanic for ISTP.

The term "mechanic" is mainly used to describe our way of thinking, not a specific activity. Ti-Se takes apart systems (typically with some sort of basis in the real world--could be economics, could be sports, could be engines) and examines it piece by piece, then puts it back together from the ground up into a cohesive, internally consistent whole where each little cause and effect is understood.

How would you describe this difference between Ti-Se and Ti-Ne? I also enjoy taking apart systems in the "real" world mainly social sciences, economics in particular.

 

[Spirit]

One thing I would like to point out is that within each type there are also variations.

If you say all ISTP are James Bond then some are Sean Connery and others are Daniel Craig or even Timothy Dalton.

 

[Spirit]

How would you describe this difference between Ti-Se and Ti-Ne? I also enjoy taking apart systems in the "real" world mainly social sciences, economics in particular.

The main difference is

Ne - would be looking for connections between different systems and wanting to discuss them for no real purpose

Se - Looking at the system how it is today and dissecting it in its current state.


I am not saying that INTP and ISTP cannot do a little of the other type of extroversion. Each type will find one easier to do.


Example

What I noticed is that i will find a subject and I keep digging into it. For example, I do not enjoy when I am talking about MBTI and someone starts talking about socionics. Its annoying. This happens to a lesser degree when someone is using Keirsey definition of typology when it is different from Myers Briggs. It is not that I cannot understand the relationship between the different ideologies, its just that I cannot be as effective learning the system without picking one and dissecting it.


What do you like about Social Science or economics?

So how do you handle a new topic? Do you dig into the topic or do you need to read about things similar to the topic to grasp it.

 

[Analyzer]

Example

What I noticed is that i will find a subject and I keep digging into it. For example, I do not enjoy when I am talking about MBTI and someone starts talking about socionics. Its annoying. This happens to a lesser degree when someone is using Keirsey definition of typology when it is different from Myers Briggs. It is not that I cannot understand the relationship between the different ideologies, its just that I cannot be as effective learning the system without picking one and dissecting it.

I generally agree with this. Is this a feature of Ti or Se though? If I am focused on certain subject, I can get annoyed if someone tries to deviate or change the conversation. I am capable of doing it, but I find this can be distracting as I want to analyze thoroughly first.

What do you like about Social Science or economics?

So how do you handle a new topic? Do you dig into the topic or do you need to read about things similar to the topic to grasp it.

Economics, psychology, ethics, history and certain aspects of technology I consider to be part of social sciences. I enjoy them more than the natural, hard sciences for a couple reasons, mainly because it's considered with the human condition at least in a more direct manner. Using logic or reasoning to figure out and understand social problems in my mind is more complex than natural sciences as the variables are infinite. Isolating a human like a rock in a lab experiment, is a short sighted and potentially dangerous method for studying the conditions of society.

When I am introduced to a new topic or idea I would say I usually first determine if it is of interest or of use to me. If yes, then I seek more information from whatever sources available to learn and see how it can be applied. A recent example is cryptography. I am not very knowledgeable about it, but I have decided it is something I want to look into(due to Bitcoin) and see if it can be of further use. I have now been reading about it's history, applications, and potential.

 

[Spirit]

I generally agree with this. Is this a feature of Ti or Se though? If I am focused on certain subject, I can get annoyed if someone tries to deviate or change the conversation. I am capable of doing it, but I find this can be distracting as I want to analyze thoroughly first.

Ti is anaylsis so it is whatever you are doing with the topic breaking it down.

Se is looking at the current subject and all the elements in the current conversation

Economics, psychology, ethics, history and certain aspects of technology I consider to be part of social sciences. I enjoy them more than the natural, hard sciences for a couple reasons, mainly because it's considered with the human condition at least in a more direct manner. Using logic or reasoning to figure out and understand social problems in my mind is more complex than natural sciences as the variables are infinite. Isolating a human like a rock in a lab experiment is a short sighted and potentially dangerous method for studying society.

ok.

When I am introduced to a new topic or idea I would say I usually first determine if it is of interest or of use to me. If yes, then I seek more information from whatever sources available to learn and see how it can be applied. A recent example is cryptography. I am not very knowledgeable about it, but I have decided it something I want to look into(due to Bitcoin) and see if it can be of use. I have now been reading about it's history, applications, and potential.

That would seem like an TiSe approach. Learn it and use it to do something with it.

TiNe seems to want to know it to discuss it. They collect information. They could be reading about BitCoin and then that could spark an interest in other types of currency. They would be more interested in learning more about them without finishing taking apart the bitcoin system.

 

[Analyzer]

Ti is anaylsis so it is whatever you are doing with the topic breaking it down.

Se is looking at the current subject and all the elements in the current conversation

So Se is more narrow in a sense than Ne when taking in more information. It is more concerned with the immediate possibilities. While in another sense Se could be more encompassing of the "relevant" details due to this. Dom/aux Ne users can be said to seem aloof or pulling random connections that aren't necessarily apparent.

That would seem like an TiSe approach. Learn it and use it to do something with it.

TiNe seems to want to know it to discuss it. They collect information. They could be reading about BitCoin and then that could spark an interest in other types of currency. They would be more interested in learning more about them without finishing taking apart the bitcoin system.

Possibly. I am collecting information as well but would you say Ti-Ne is not concerned with it's potential applications at all compared to Ti-Se? How would INTPs be able to take any action if this is the case?

Also when gathering information I like to get the gist of it all, move on, and figure out my own way of dealing with it. I don't like to get bogged down by the details and procedures. I think this maybe a Te thing though.

 

[Spirit]

Lets explore also how trauma can turn off a cognitive function. When Extroverted trauma occurs, what if this turns off that cognitive preference and it causes the person to seem like another type?

 

[Spirit]

Se perceives the external environment as it is; Ne makes associations among things in the environment.

 

[Variform]

Not all sports demand strong Extraverted Sensing. Fencing, for example, is very strategical and often requires you to think outside the box. For running and swimming, you don't necessarily need to be coordinated and aware of your environment, particularly with long distances; you can pretty much just disconnect mentally and daydream. Cards, which ESPN oddly considers a sport, definitely doesn't require that much Se - arguably more Ni

Not sure about the 'builds' thing. You mean physical? That sounds unright. Physical traits combined with psychology? That is like saying people with eyebrows close together as criminals. They did that long ago.

 

[Variform]

So this is an ethical thing for you?

Aye. I think science is not above morals or values. Science is a human endeavor and impacts on society. Maybe scientists believe that they can research anything they like because they believe that science = reality. Which it is surely not. But when you think science = reality, then whatever your research finds out, must be true and you cannot argue against the truth.

But science is part of the destroying of our climate, of killing off species. There is no denying it, although people always illogically do in discussions with me. Especially technophobes.

Science should be prone to ethics. And despite there being ethical committees in universities, I never heard of research being denied because it is immoral or amoral. How can they? The university needs money, needs patents. They need valorization.

Science is always upheld, put upon a pedestal so high mortal men cannot question it. Anything goes. But the world suffers.

 

[Spirit]

Not sure about the 'builds' thing. You mean physical? That sounds unright. Physical traits combined with psychology? That is like saying people with eyebrows close together as criminals. They did that long ago.

I'm not sold on the physical traits I am focused on the awareness that sensing gives to athletes more extroverted sensing the better the athlete.

 

[Spirit]

I decided that it won't matter if i make a test or not. Either you relate to the stuff in this thread or what I am writing below or not. MBTI/Jung Typology is not the end point for who you are as a person but it is great for what it is. For example, It lets you know your preferences, it helps you understand why your preferences have made you a social/intellectual outcast.

Some of you want to change yourself, that's fine. Some of you don't want to accept that you aren't special and what you are working with is exactly like someone else in this world or in history. Use this research to learn yourself better, what you like and what you do not like. These types are not limits, they are frameworks for understand. Typology is the skeleton and your experiences put the meat on the bones.

With that said, my final thoughts on Being an ISTP rather than INTP.

being an ISTP

1. As a kid you took things apart and put them back together.
Doors, locks, electronic toys, barbie dream houses, radio controlled cars, walkie talkies, building forts

2. You played sports as a kid and were pretty decent at them.
skateboarding, rollerblading, you can hit a baseball, bmx, kickball, double dutch, swim team

3. You are good with your hands and teach yourself how to do things by watching someone
woodworking, assembling and dissembling weapons, crocheting, driving stick shift, engines, roofing, plumbing, computer hardware repair, computer systems (Not programming)

4. You have a natural coolness about you.
People say you have an old soul, people always say you seem confident, you don't have to talk very much and people say you are cool customer, you have a happy go lucky don't give a fuck attitude. People say you would be really successful if you applied yourself.

5. You have angry outbursts, which shows how passive aggressive you are most of the time

Most of the time you don't give a shit so people will try to test you and eventually that will piss you off, so you lash out in a physical way or completely ignore the person altogether.

6. You like experiencing new things and not resistant to change
Food, clothes, places, smells and sounds. these things get your mind racing. These are tangible things you can feel with your senses. You use these experiences to MAKE something.

7. You have certain topics you will discuss and have an endless appetite for and the other topics you don't have anything to say about them and don't care to discuss them

8. If you don't like a topic, you will listen if the person is someone you care about but you are less likely to give them any feedback. If they are not someone you care about, you will leave the environment.

9. If your environment did not allow you to work on seeing the world with your senses, you may over rely on being a skeptic and doing a poor job of trying to fix abstract problems.

10. You are a loner and you probably have a few friends that you hang out with.

You are the guy always working on his car, stay after practice to shoot more free throws, You go climbing by yourself or a buddy, you like being a dj and is all about the music and not the party. For some reason, you end up by yourself hanging with yourself. You just get used to it.
It's ok because you are doing something you like.

11. You don't have problems picking up girls. (Male ISTP)*

For some reason, you start talking to them and eventually you get one. It isn't even a numbers game, you just have something that they want and they will come to you if you smile. Not all women but if you are their type, they will go for you.

12. Guys think you are the cool chick (Female ISTP)*

You drive fast, you are good at sports, dancing and have good taste in music. Guys will want to party with you because you are the "down to earth" chick not afraid to get a little dirty.


*If you are homosexual, pick the right one that applies to your preference

13. You have a style

You have a jacket, hat or boots that you are known for. For some reason, you pull it off and people just let you know it. You eventually pick up what looks best on you and go with it. You aren't fashionable, you are stylish.

14. You don't care but you care

If people are in a situation where they need help, you can help them solve the problem. You save the day but its not because you want to be a hero, its that there was an interesting problem that you want to figure out in a physical way.

15. You have all of these emotions under the surface that don't come out

Your face shows the emotions but you don't talk about it

16. In your personal life you don't like planning

You would rather go with the flow but you will adopt habits like keeping dates on calenders if you know that missing an appointment could cost you a job or relationship you like.

17. You have a natural aversion to being controlled

For some reason, anyone attempting to control you becomes an enemy. If you are in a relationship, you significant other is about to get walked out on. if the person is not significant, they get cut off. Very low tolerance for "by the book" thinking. Rules are made to be modified based on the current situation.

18. You are always trying to become a freelancer or your own boss

If you work for a company, you want to be independent on the team. You don't want to be a leader if you have a choice because you don't want to rely on other people because they could get emotional or have issues. You want to be able to work your project and be done with it on your terms.

There are many more things about an ISTP that I could write.

TiSeNiFe natural traits

• a strong analyst
• see the world for what it is and how it is
• good with their senses
• calm but passive aggressive
• driven to figure out how things work not ideas
• Interested in subjects they like and stay stuck on them
• can become obsessed with critical thinking
• good at adjusting to whatever happens
• not interested in arguing
• more likely to say let me show you
• want to do something themselves

One last thing. You are your own person but you aren't special.

Without using something to understand your preferences, You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting.