Brainstorming the idea of being an ISTP and not an INTP

[Spirit]

We are of similar height, build, and strength. I thought I was ISTP for about six months before determining I am probably a Te user.

I became much stronger than the 2005 post

I got up to 207 lbs at my max weight

at 187
deadlifted 555
squatted 425
weighted dips with 135lbs


You show more signs of Te use than I see in most people that regularly post

 

[TimeAsylums]

I got up to 207 lbs at my max weight

at 187
deadlifted 555
squatted 425
weighted dips with 135lbs

lol fucking noob

http://forum.bodybuilding.com try again

jjjk


The only stats that really matter is, "How many bitches did you fuck in the interim?" Yeah you was squatting near 10 plates, but yer mate over there was busy squatting his dick into 10 niches.





...jk

 

[Base groove]

I became much stronger than the 2005 post

I got up to 207 lbs at my max weight

at 187
deadlifted 555
squatted 425
weighted dips with 135lbs


You show more signs of Te use than I see in most people that regularly post

oh my yes, I have never been that big or strong. Good god.

Ironically ~2005 was also the (very brief) period in my life that I did organized weight training and was therefore able to contrast certain data with yours.

yeah whatever triggers Te in that typealyzer program seems to be consistently activated by every post I've put in there.

 

[Architect]

Interestingly it sometimes seems that Bodybuilding is a key differentiator between ISTP's and INTP's. In general, ISTP's tend toward more muscular larger body types and INTP's towards ectomorphic and endomorphic (lean and lightly muscled). This can be extrapolated to other types, but it's one I've observed, not surprisingly due to the fact that INTP's tend towards being less physically active (and eating less) than ISTP's with their stronger Se.

Indeed, I've finally (after some 40 years) gotten into the consistent habit of a regular weight training program. At that it seems impossible to gain any muscle mass - not that I want it, but I am getting stronger with more definition. My ISTP brother though has easily been a life long body builder and is quite large. He also has the common S characteristic that while he is heavily muscled, it's overlaid with a thick layer of fat, so I actually have somewhat more definition.

So I tend to use Bodybuilding as an indicator. Now don't take that to the stupid extreme that "INTP's don't body build". I do - for one. But clearly there is a gulf between the ISTP and the INTP on this one.

 

[Spirit]

lol fucking noob

http://forum.bodybuilding.com try again

jjjk


The only stats that really matter is, "How many bitches did you fuck in the interim?" Yeah you was squatting near 10 plates, but yer mate over there was busy squatting his dick into 10 niches.

...jk

Umad cuz I'm stylin on you bruh?

oh my yes, I have never been that big or strong. Good god.

Ironically ~2005 was also the (very brief) period in my life that I did organized weight training and was therefore able to contrast certain data with yours.

yeah whatever triggers Te in that typealyzer program seems to be consistently activated by every post I've put in there.

It was an adventure.
What were your goals during this time? Did you meet them?

The typeanalyzer shows me that depending on the audience, I will change my writing style. I am skeptical of using it as an indicator of personality type.

 

[Spirit]

Interestingly it sometimes seems that Bodybuilding is a key differentiator between ISTP's and INTP's. In general, ISTP's tend toward more muscular larger body types and INTP's towards ectomorphic and endomorphic (lean and lightly muscled). This can be extrapolated to other types, but it's one I've observed, not surprisingly due to the fact that INTP's tend towards being less physically active (and eating less) than ISTP's with their stronger Se.

I have more of an ectomeso frame. I would think that would be more indicative of ISTP where as a Dominate Se person could have a Mesomorphic frame because of how "intune" they are with their bodies. A much stronger connection to moving themselves through space and "psychic" awareness of that sense and desire to feel it.

Indeed, I've finally (after some 40 years) gotten into the consistent habit of a regular weight training program. At that it seems impossible to gain any muscle mass - not that I want it, but I am getting stronger with more definition. My ISTP brother though has easily been a life long body builder and is quite large. He also has the common S characteristic that while he is heavily muscled, it's overlaid with a thick layer of fat, so I actually have somewhat more definition.

If he has been training for 15-20 years consistently but not paying attention to diet, he would have a thick layer of fat over muscle. Your slightness is more due to inconsistency training with heavy compound movements and not eating enough foods with carnitine, creatine, isoleucine leucine and valine.

So I tend to use Bodybuilding as an indicator. Now don't take that to the stupid extreme that "INTP's don't body build". I do - for one. But clearly there is a gulf between the ISTP and the INTP on this one.


Se types have more mind muscle connection than non Se users and therefore be able to recruit more muscle fibers with less "effort". Those that have limited Se use will not be able to"sense" what the muscle is doing even if they are technically doing the exercise correctly.

See bold.

 

[Spocksleftball]

I reject the stereotypical assumption that intp are weak framed non-athletic individuals. Activities like weight lifting, or other individual activities are well within the preview of an intp. We can, in our desire to over analyze all aspect of the mbti, create a little world in our minds to pigeonhole concepts. The danger is, of course, no one fits perfectly into these niches. To me the real qualifier for istp would be your propensity to master or simply to know sufficiently that which interests you. I run, I play tennis, and I play golf. I do all well enough, but I don't really care to be excellent. Oh yes, in my mind I see I could with practice get good, but there are just too many other things to see, do, know.

Do you look forward to the gym daily as the highlight of your day? Or do you see it as a system to release stress? Do you worry when you are off diet, or do you just try to stay near the recommended caloric intake?


Intp = I know how every major component of a car works.
Istp = I have built a car to see how every part within each major component is interdependent.
Isfp = I have drawn a pretty picture of a car....

 

[Spirit]

I reject the stereotypical assumption that intp are weak framed non-athletic individuals. Activities like weight lifting, or other individual activities are well within the preview of an intp. We can, in our desire to over analyze all aspect of the mbti, create a little world in our minds to pigeonhole concepts. The danger is, of course, no one fits perfectly into these niches. To me the real qualifier for istp would be your propensity to master or simply to know sufficiently that which interests you. I run, I play tennis, and I play golf. I do all well enough, but I don't really care to be excellent. Oh yes, in my mind I see I could with practice get good, but there are just too many other things to see, do, know.

Do you look forward to the gym daily as the highlight of your day? Or do you see it as a system to release stress? Do you worry when you are off diet, or do you just try to stay near the recommended caloric intake?


Intp = I know how every major component of a car works.
Istp = I have built a car to see how every part within each major component is interdependent.
Isfp = I have drawn a pretty picture of a car....

I'm not using stereotyping to explain why an intp would not be a champion bodybuilder. I am saying that an INTP would not have the mind muscle connection that an Se user has. I was in the body building world. There were not Intp personalities winning top shows. Use logic and not emotion. Even if the Intp is a bodybuilder, he will have to use drugs to stay on par with an Se user with a natural user that hasn't trained as long.

This reminds me of the phrase "if you try hard you can be anything you want to be". That is not true.

 

[Turniphead]

Intp = I know how every major component of a car works.
Istp = I have built a car to see how every part within each major component is interdependent.
Isfp = I have drawn a pretty picture of a car....

Oh shit, I'm a ISFP.



--

edit:
Starts doubting self, goes and looks up ISFP profiles.

 

[Spocksleftball]

I'm not using stereotyping to explain why an intp would not be a champion bodybuilder. I am saying that an INTP would not have the mind muscle connection that an Se user has. I was in the body building world. There were not Intp personalities winning top shows. Use logic and not emotion. Even if the Intp is a bodybuilder, he will have to use drugs to stay on par with an Se user with a natural user that hasn't trained as long.

This reminds me of the phrase "if you try hard you can be anything you want to be". That is not true.

I was more or less trying to define a different set of parameters to judge by. You cannot preclude that an intp would never be a body builder, but you can guess with more accuracy at what level such a bodybuilder would be committed to the ultimate goal. I cannot tell from this discussion honestly if you are either of the two types outlined. Sorry if I was confusing, as I am trying to help you in your determination.

 

[Spirit]

I was more or less trying to define a different set of parameters to judge by. You cannot preclude that an intp would never be a body builder, but you can guess with more accuracy at what level such a bodybuilder would be committed to the ultimate goal. I cannot tell from this discussion honestly if you are either of the two types outlined. Sorry if I was confusing, as I am trying to help you in your determination.

I am going through each aspect of my life and looking at each of the ideas I present in this thread and comparing them to my life.

I am looking at motivations behind decisions, activities, work choices I have made to determine if there is a pattern.

I will determine which of the archetypes I match when I have finshed the comparison.

Source
Interviews from people in my past (My outward projection)

• Close family members
• Work mates
• Past girlfriends

personal writings
academic history
job choices
books I finished reading
activities I excelled at
music
tv

blah blah ... everything.

Edit: I am comparing the past to the idea that we exhibit personality traits during those three phases of growth.

 

[Base groove]

books I finished reading

lol

 

[Spirit]

lol

If I finished reading the book that means I wanted to invest my time. If I did not, it was a passing curiosity.

 

[Base groove]

Once I read a book 3/4 of the way thru and didn't finish.
The second time, I finished ... and apparently forgot.

The third time I resolved to finish it because I thought I hadn't yet however all along I realized I had read 'this part' up until the last page.

Somewhat related to type? Perhaps.

 

[Spirit]

Once I read a book 3/4 of the way thru and didn't finish.
The second time, I finished ... and apparently forgot.

The third time I resolved to finish it because I thought I hadn't yet however all along I realized I had read 'this part' up until the last page.

Somewhat related to type? Perhaps.

That has happened to me. That would be a book I would not count as a passing curiosity.

 

[Spirit]

What kind of language type do you use when you are explaining something to someone you like or someone you respect,fear,love,hate afraid to lose?

Factual
Indirect
other

I use factual language when I speak to most people. I have learned that using factual language feels cold to most people. It is the number one complaint about my emails to coworkers and some clients at work.

 

[Spirit]

Drenth 3 phases

Phase 1 Childhood - 20's: TiSe
Phase 2 Late Teens - 30's: Fe tapping into Ni for clarification
Phase 3 30's and beyond: Awareness, balance and control of Dominant and inferior relationship - TiFe

My Fe started showing it self around 12

Ti - is the function of logic. In video games there are certain patterns that present themselves and the Introverted thinker uses this analytic ability to determine the best possible route to the solution. objective.

Ti as a teen why does it work this way - derail classes by questioning the teachers methodologies to get the solution trying to determine whether what is presented to us will meet our goal of understanding the subject matter.
When dealing with parents and friends wanting to know why they are asked to perform a task or think about a subject.

• Why do I need to do this chore?
• Why do I need to attend school?
• Why do I need to turn in homework?
• Why do I need to wear a uniform or dress this way?

All questions are designed to determine the variables and what is irrelevant to what we need to accomplish.


Se Dom vs Se Aux (Lenore Thompson)
Se Dom a risk taker that will continue to challenge or compete untill required to use judgement to slow them down or limit the sensory information
Se Aux needs to be engaged in action to practice their perception of logic in a situation.

Se as a teen - I want to learn to drive by doing. I need to do a project to understand the reasons behind something. Can I use my hands to make this? I need to build an example. I work better when I am not in listening mode all the time. Let me do the task and figure it out as I go. Less sitting and talking more doing.

• If you are going to teach me geometry, lets build a fort or a birdhouse.
• If you want to teach me chemistry, lets make a bomb.
• If you want to teach history, let me act out the role of the historical figure or time period.
• If you want to teach me about music, give me an instrument to play.

Less talking without doing. My logic learning comes from the experience of doing, trial by fire.


Being trolled by Fe
When extroverted feeling is neglected, we become primitive and egocentric. An increasing sense of being deprived of approval or affection The more you deprive yourself emotionally of connection the more vulnerable you feel. So you shut everyone out of your inner sanctum. When this happens you make decisions without understanding the consequence of others. You may not be able to understand why you are being emotionally played by a lover. The lack of the desire for approval and affection inhibits your ability to recognize the social cues required to build a relationship.

Defining Fe
Drawn to find our identity in relationship with others. The ability to see yourself through someone elses eyes.


TiSeFe
Sticking with experiences they know how to handle to make sure they control their immediate environment. Do not feel responsible for things or experiences outside of what they like. They stay in their preferred areas of interest and change based on the current situation not the stuck with what was done in the past.

Wife: you missed you sons basketball game.
The response: How did he did he play?
Wife: He shutdown the person he was guarding and he held the opposing player 5 points below his average
Response: Its better than last week. We'll work on endurance and defensive drills this week.
wife: Aren't you going to say you are sorry for missing the game.
Response: I can't play for him. I spent the week working with him on his game techniques.

TiSeFe in Teens -

• I know I am good at fixing motorcycles so I will take on the persona of my favorite mechanic. If people like me it will be because I am good at knowing how to trick out motorcycles to operate better. Infact I should be appreciated for that skill.
• I am a good dancer because I know how to come up with new techniques because I practice all the time. It is my passion. If I am known for this I will be liked. My dancing speaks for my credibility.
• I am a good troubleshooter and I can fix things on the fly. If I am the best a coming up with new techniques to solve problems why am I not the most liked?

Tertiary Ni - focus on patterns of hypocrisy with slight patterns of paranoia. This explains why they can be cynical with commentary on subject matter.

TiSeFe with Ni influence in teens -

• I know how to figure things out but they are too stupid to see it. The other kids here don't like me because they are jealous of my ability to do what they cannot do.
• My parents know that I know how to drive a car why won't they let me drive myself to school. It is because they want me to drive like them. I drive better when I get a chance to drive.
• The fact that the coach won't put me in the game that is an insult to me. The other team knows his plays. If he lets me in the game I can figure out what they are doing and come up with a way to stop them. Just let me do it. You just wish you were young again and afraid I can do this better than you.

 

[Red myst]

This is great stuff! Are you going to contrast it with an INTP in a similar format?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Spirit]

This is great stuff! Are you going to contrast it with an INTP in a similar format?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes. When I have completed the ISTP. I will go back and compare my findings to the INTP.

It's interesting to me because this Forum has a high concentration of IP's. The worst part of the typology community is their lack of taking the cognitive functions and questions and presenting them in simpler terms. It's jargon all day everyday. This is one of the reasons people mistype themselves INTP vs ISTP.

People understand that they are logical.

People do not understand what using intuition or sensation actually means while using logic.

People also do not understand what is normal for feelings as a non developed extroverted feeler.

People also do not understand how integrating their extraverted feelings changes how they may test on the test.


I also plan to write a test for users who think they are an INTP but are really an ISTP.

 

[Red myst]

You are so right. I have a hard time with the functions. I understand and the function stack, but I struggle with how relative things seem to be. I do feel that people who have very strong preferences will be easier to identify, but mild preferences, not so much.
I see some strong intuitive types and think "I can't be an intuitive....." But if I'm more Se, then I really suck at it. When I deal with some people, I get a sense that they just can't see the bigger picture, and then I deal with others and think they are impractical because they don't understand the details of the situation. When I begin working on a project, if I am given some details, I want to see the bigger picture, and if I am given the big picture, I notice that the details are missing. What I really want to get to the bottom of is how to recognize what functions I am using. I don't much care about my "type" per Se. I do identify with nostalgia, which I read is linked to Si. Which is part of the intp function stack. And I do build on learned knowledge, also Si. I do believe I use Ne to take in information for Ti to process, and use Fe to communicate with people like you to kick around ideas and observations. But am very practical about things. Like others have said is an ISTP thing. But what is practical? It is true that I'm not going to take up a foreign language, or study astronomy just to learn something new. But I love brain food. I love learning about esoteric things that have no practical use in my life. I just won't take a formal class to do so. I have had hobbies and interest that add much value to me as a person, but nothing I could use in my professional career or personal life. It just enhances my world view of things. So, I think practicality is in the eye of the beholder. I take care of the practical things in life, and I thought it practical to pursue a career that meshed with my occupational identity instead of going after a bigger paycheck. In lots of ways I am a very practical guy on the outside, but I have some very unpractical interest I peruse for fun. For fun I don't play sports, exercise, do any outdoor activities. I read books about topics of interest, mostly cerebral stuff, or read sci-fi stuff. Or surf the net for topics of interest.
Anyway, I am looking forward to your upcoming post.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Spirit]

One note about Introverted thinking vs Extroverted thinking for those wondering if they could be an INTJ

If you would rather get the "jist" of an idea like having a diagram of a completed project and figure out how things work together yourself, you are using introverted thinking

If you must measure each step exactly and are uncomfortable if the framework is not exact in a step by step repeatable fashion, you are using extroverted thinking

Personally, extroverted thinking is challenging for me. I see examples of this in my academics as well as my work.

I favor getting the big picture in the morning meetings and then going back to my desk to work on my program. When I present it to my boss which demands that I outline the process in a clear linear form. It often takes several attempts to get to the linear form.

When I give presentations, I would start broad and had to drill down to get the finer details. Every time I performed my presentation, I refined the best most efficient version of the system I was explaining.

The key here was doing the work. Interacting with something to figure out what I was doing. It just like attempting to brainstorm this idea of what is an ISTP and not INTP, I understand because I have to work it out myself "On paper" (electronically) in front of everyone. This is extraverted sensing. Someone telling it to me or me reading about it without working it out, I am not learning it.

 

[Spirit]

You are so right. I have a hard time with the functions. I understand and the function stack, but I struggle with how relative things seem to be. I do feel that people who have very strong preferences will be easier to identify, but mild preferences, not so much.
I see some strong intuitive types and think "I can't be an intuitive....." But if I'm more Se, then I really suck at it. When I deal with some people, I get a sense that they just can't see the bigger picture, and then I deal with others and think they are impractical because they don't understand the details of the situation.
In an ISTP this is Ni telling you can't trust this persons opinion because you are not sure of their logic

When I begin working on a project, if I am given some details, I want to see the bigger picture, and if I am given the big picture, I notice that the details are missing. What I really want to get to the bottom of is how to recognize what functions I am using.
My question here is how do you go about getting answers to your questions. In other words, what do you do? Give a real life example of a big problem and how you find the answer. Pay close attention to where you are when you are doing it. What you are using to find the answer. Did you ask anyone questions?


I don't much care about my "type" per Se. I do identify with nostalgia, which I read is linked to Si. Which is part of the intp function stack. And I do build on learned knowledge, also Si. I do believe I use Ne to take in information for Ti to process, and use Fe to communicate with people like you to kick around ideas and observations.
Be careful trying to force yourself into the "appropriate functional stack" before you work out the details of your behaviors.

For example you say building on learned knowledge is also Si, that could be true or are you adapting yourself in the present to what you are learning. Starting broad and working yourself to the fine details.

What does "I identify with Nostalgia mean"?

How do you know you are taking in information via Ne?



But am very practical about things. Like others have said is an ISTP thing. But what is practical? It is true that I'm not going to take up a foreign language, or study astronomy just to learn something new. But I love brain food. I love learning about esoteric things that have no practical use in my life. I just won't take a formal class to do so. I have had hobbies and interest that add much value to me as a person, but nothing I could use in my professional career or personal life. It just enhances my world view of things.

by experience

So, I think practicality is in the eye of the beholder. I take care of the practical things in life, and I thought it practical to pursue a career that meshed with my occupational identity instead of going after a bigger paycheck. In lots of ways I am a very practical guy on the outside, but I have some very unpractical interest I peruse for fun.

For fun I don't play sports, exercise, do any outdoor activities. I read books about topics of interest, mostly cerebral stuff, or read sci-fi stuff. Or surf the net for topics of interest.

This is where the misconception of ISTP is an action junkie. People confuse the Se in an ESTP or ESFP

These people are the ones that love feeling the sensation of an activity. Lets go hiking or bungee jumping. These are the people that want to go dancing because the feel they have to do it. The have to have their 5 senses being activated in the moment. They want to take part of everything socially.

They need a team of people with them so they can see the reactions of others while they are also doing what they are doing. They enjoy sweating, being dizzy, getting knocked down. They are the kinds of fighters that. Want the other fighter to hit them in the face before the fight starts to get in the zone. They are the person that says "come after me I dare you. Here is my chin hit it. They enjoy punching and also getting hit. "thrill of the challenge"

ISTP - use the act of doing to solve the logic and to figure things out. They must be actively doing something to figure out their logic.

You are looking a topic and then you are searching online, watching movies, and reading sci fi for answers formulating to reach a goal - your interest. These are not cerebral activities.

Cerebral activities would be you sitting by yourself writing out or thinking about a topic and how it breaks down. Building models of theories would be and things that do not exist yet.

If you were talking about Ne, it is really about taking larger ideas and patterns, breaking them down AND being able to convince others of the new ideas you have discovered from the process




Anyway, I am looking forward to your upcoming post.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

See bold.

Cliff notes

Try to look at what you do to solve a problem while at school/work, in your relationships and with your friends. Write down in detail the whole scenario, environment and steps to solution.

 

[Red myst]

One note about Introverted thinking vs Extroverted thinking for those wondering if they could be an INTJ



The key here was doing the work. Interacting with something to figure out what I was doing. It just like attempting to brainstorm this idea of what is an ISTP and not INTP, I understand because I have to work it out myself "On paper" (electronically) in front of everyone. This is extraverted sensing. Someone telling it to me or me reading about it without working it out, I am not learning it.

This sounds like kinesthetic learning to me. Which is like hands on type of learning from what I understand. And I am like this to a degree. Are you suggesting that high preference for kinesthetic learning is evidence that someone is more "S" than "N"?
I am quite certain I use Se if this is the case for a certain portion of my learning, or understanding of things, but I don't need to do this, It only helps that I do. And only in some situations.
As near as I can tell, I am not a heavy "N' user, but when around "S" types, I'm like a fish out of water to them. they don't get me, but I get them and where they are coming from so i tailor how I speak with them to make it work. Does this sound familiar to anyone?

 

[Spirit]

This sounds like kinesthetic learning to me. Which is like hands on type of learning from what I understand. And I am like this to a degree. Are you suggesting that high preference for kinesthetic learning is evidence that someone is more "S" than "N"?
I am quite certain I use Se if this is the case for a certain portion of my learning, or understanding of things, but I don't need to do this, It only helps that I do. And only in some situations.
As near as I can tell, I am not a heavy "N' user, but when around "S" types, I'm like a fish out of water to them. they don't get me, but I get them and where they are coming from so i tailor how I speak with them to make it work. Does this sound familiar to anyone?

I would say that it is kinesthetic learning.

I think you may be confusing the difference between Ni and Ne.

You are probably interacting with dominate Se and Si users. You would feel out of place. Most of society is Heavy Se and Si users.

As near as I can tell, I am not a heavy "N' user, but when around "S" types, I'm like a fish out of water to them. they don't get me, but I get them

This statement seems like Ni and Fe in an ISTP. Ni expressed in an ISTP is the conspiracy theorist.

This is why I asked you to pick a problem and break it down. You gave me a "get the gist" answer but you didn't break down what I said.

 

[Red myst]

See bold.

Cliff notes

Try to look at what you do to solve a problem while at school/work, in your relationships and with your friends. Write down in detail the whole scenario, environment and steps to solution.

I am a compulsive tinkerer and investigator for certain. I like to experiment with stuff, or kick around an idea or revelation I have had. While trying to deduce which functions I use, I believed that Ni was not really part of my function stack because I am not very creative. I cant do much from scratch, I can Frankenstein parts together to make something work, and prefer reverse engineering something as opposed to engineering it. I don't like reinventing the wheel. I can see at times it has to be done because the foundation of a project is bad. But I get more pleasure out of salvaging a project than building from scratch.
Ne seemed more familiar to me only because it has been described as pattern surfing, and I would much rather look for a pattern and draw a conclusion than dig into the details. People always ask me "how do you come up with this stuff?" But I don't know if I am truly using Ne or not. Its just that others don't seem to see how I come to conclusions about how I know something is going to work or not, and I can't explain it to them. I am not always right, but they have come to trust me on things. I most certainly get these ah ha moments that seem to bubble up out of no where, sometimes when I'm sleeping, the answer to a problem will wake me up.
As far as nostalgia goes, I get flashbacks to past memories triggered by something my senses pickup in my present environment. That I understand is related to Si. And by flashbacks, I mean a very deep, intense, instantaneous memory or image of a time from my past. Like musty books reminding me of my visits to the library when I was younger. But its not just a memory, its like a brilliant flash where I see the whole thing exactly it was, then fades away in a matter of milliseconds, then leaves me dwelling on it for a bit.

I cant explain Ne, and if I use it. But I do know that It seems like my whole live I been slightly miss understood and thought a little spacey and never really related to too many people, and I believed the difference was S vs N. my peers seemed to like to talk about the obvious, the factual, the concrete stuff that I felt was so boring. I very much dislike rote memorization. Like multiplication, I disliked having to memorize my multiplication tables because I already understood the concept. If I couldn't remember what 7x7 was, I could always figure it out. I will look for a discernible pattern to help me remember something or figure out a trick, but I cant just hold arbitrary numbers in my head for no reason. I like to talk about what if's and why's and speculate over possibilities. I like to dig below the surface to see what is there. Most people I spend a little time with consider me deep and insightful. I am always looking for new prospective. Examining a problem from different angels. Perhaps this is really all due to being a heavy introverted thinker, and my deduction that I use Ne is just an attempt at an intuitive leap which I may not really be good at.

Anyway, Your an awesome person, and I really thank you for your input. Now I've got a lot more to consider.

 

[Analyzer]

For some weird reason this thread has made me reconsider MBTI and it's variants. We have to remember the system/framework was created from Jung's analysis on identifying the CF's of Sensing, Intuition, Feeling, Thinking, and its Introverted/Extroverted sides. There are some inconsistencies in the MBTI system such as why are IP's considered perceivers when they use dominant judging functions - Ti and Fi? IP's are also the most confused about their type, or curious about MBTI in general that I have noticed.

What about the possibility that ISTP's that think they are INTP's have a more "developed" or are more in touch with their Ni?

 

[Spirit]

I am a compulsive tinkerer and investigator for certain. I like to experiment with stuff, or kick around an idea or revelation I have had. While trying to deduce which functions I use, I believed that Ni was not really part of my function stack because I am not very creative. I cant do much from scratch, I can Frankenstein parts together to make something work, and prefer reverse engineering something as opposed to engineering it. I don't like reinventing the wheel. I can see at times it has to be done because the foundation of a project is bad. But I get more pleasure out of salvaging a project than building from scratch.
Ne seemed more familiar to me only because it has been described as pattern surfing, and I would much rather look for a pattern and draw a conclusion than dig into the details. People always ask me "how do you come up with this stuff?" But I don't know if I am truly using Ne or not. Its just that others don't seem to see how I come to conclusions about how I know something is going to work or not, and I can't explain it to them. I am not always right, but they have come to trust me on things. I most certainly get these ah ha moments that seem to bubble up out of no where, sometimes when I'm sleeping, the answer to a problem will wake me up.
As far as nostalgia goes, I get flashbacks to past memories triggered by something my senses pickup in my present environment. That I understand is related to Si. And by flashbacks, I mean a very deep, intense, instantaneous memory or image of a time from my past. Like musty books reminding me of my visits to the library when I was younger. But its not just a memory, its like a brilliant flash where I see the whole thing exactly it was, then fades away in a matter of milliseconds, then leaves me dwelling on it for a bit.

I cant explain Ne, and if I use it. But I do know that It seems like my whole live I been slightly miss understood and thought a little spacey and never really related to too many people, and I believed the difference was S vs N. my peers seemed to like to talk about the obvious, the factual, the concrete stuff that I felt was so boring. I very much dislike rote memorization. Like multiplication, I disliked having to memorize my multiplication tables because I already understood the concept. If I couldn't remember what 7x7 was, I could always figure it out. I will look for a discernible pattern to help me remember something or figure out a trick, but I cant just hold arbitrary numbers in my head for no reason. I like to talk about what if's and why's and speculate over possibilities. I like to dig below the surface to see what is there. Most people I spend a little time with consider me deep and insightful. I am always looking for new prospective. Examining a problem from different angels. Perhaps this is really all due to being a heavy introverted thinker, and my deduction that I use Ne is just an attempt at an intuitive leap which I may not really be good at.

Anyway, Your an awesome person, and I really thank you for your input. Now I've got a lot more to consider.

You have Ni and Ne backwards.

You know it's ok if you are not a INTP? You can still be insightful and smart and a deep thinker.

I smile because you still haven't written a out a problem, described how you would solve it and what you were doing when you did it. I would think an pure abstract thinker would be all over that.

 

[Spirit]

For some weird reason this thread has made me reconsider MBTI and it's variants. We have to remember the system/framework was created from Jung's analysis on identifying the CF's of Sensing, Intuition, Feeling, and Thinking and its Introverted/Extroverted sides. There are some inconsistencies in the MBTI system such as why are IP's considered perceivers when they use dominant judging functions - Ti and Fi? IP's are also the most confused about their type, or curious about MBTI in general that I have noticed.

What about the possibility that ISTP's that think they are INTP's have a more "developed" or are more in touch with their Ni?

Well I have been reading a lot of books over the past week to help me with this topic.

Personality Type by Lenore Thompson
Please Understand Me by Kersey
Do what you are by Tieger
Portable Jung by Joseph Campbell

as well as a few others
Pathway to Bliss


I completely agree that ISTP that think they are INTP's are identifying with Ni and their Ti and they think it is Ne. According to Lenore, the Ni in ISTP's is a always dreaming up what if scenarios. Usually teaming up with the Fe to cause trouble and doubt in the logic. It pushes the ISTP to keep searching for answers because it does not trust what it sees in front of it. Especially if the ISTP is not receiving approval and affection.


Lenore seems closest to Jung than MBTI.

 

[Analyzer]

Well I have been reading a lot of books over the past week to help me with this topic.

Personality Type by Lenore Thompson
Please Understand Me by Kersey
Do what you are by Tieger
Portable Jung by Joseph Campbell

as well as a few others
Pathway to Bliss


I completely agree that ISTP that think they are INTP's are identifying with Ni and their Ti and they think it is Ne. According to Lenore, the Ni in ISTP's is a always dreaming up what if scenarios. Usually teaming up with the Fe to cause trouble and doubt in the logic. It pushes the ISTP to keep searching for answers because it does not trust what it sees in front of it. Especially if the ISTP is not receiving approval and affection.


Lenore seems closest to Jung than MBTI.

Will check those out. Have you looked at Socionics at all? I know it's similar to MBTI with slightly different(expanded) characteristics. I guess its widely used in Eastern Europe/Russia than in the US.

 

[Red myst]

Well, I have been away from my computer for a bit, but while I was away, I have been thinking about how you structure your post when you lay everything out like you are asking me to do. I have been trying to structure my head the over all layout and how to describe my environment, pick a problem I would solve or have solved a problem in the past, how I would explain it. I am not a writer by any means. A avoid it when ever possible. It takes me a long time to put my thoughts out in text. I compose and edit all the time, it does not just flow. But I want to and am going to do it. I was defiantly all over it in my head as soon as I saw what you asked. I am anxious for insight into type and maybe some good comes out of this for others who are trying to understand these differences. I am a engineering tech and have been working in the prototype department of a hydraulics components and systems manufacturer for many years. I am the link between the engineers and the assembly techs when not working with prototype stuff. Working on prototypes means I avoid al lot of bureaucratic nonsense and can forgo a lot of rules and red tape. To me it is the sweet spot in the company, and when not busy, I can float between engineering and the assembly floor. But I could not be and engineer, or an assembly tech. At least not for long. Too routine, too repetitive, too tedious. My qualification for the job was being an experienced licensed aircraft mechanic. Ok, see that I mean, it took me 30 min to get this out. Lol seriously! But I will post again later about how I solve problems ect........


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Spirit]

Well, I have been away from my computer for a bit, but while I was away, I have been thinking about how you structure your post when you lay everything out like you are asking me to do. I have been trying to structure my head the over all layout and how to describe my environment, pick a problem I would solve or have solved a problem in the past, how I would explain it. I am not a writer by any means. A avoid it when ever possible. It takes me a long time to put my thoughts out in text. I compose and edit all the time, it does not just flow. But I want to and am going to do it. I was defiantly all over it in my head as soon as I saw what you asked. I am anxious for insight into type and maybe some good comes out of this for others who are trying to understand these differences. I am a engineering tech and have been working in the prototype department of a hydraulics components and systems manufacturer for many years. I am the link between the engineers and the assembly techs when not working with prototype stuff. Working on prototypes means I avoid al lot of bureaucratic nonsense and can forgo a lot of rules and red tape. To me it is the sweet spot in the company, and when not busy, I can float between engineering and the assembly floor. But I could not be and engineer, or an assembly tech. At least not for long. Too routine, too repetitive, too tedious. My qualification for the job was being an experienced licensed aircraft mechanic. Ok, see that I mean, it took me 30 min to get this out. Lol seriously! But I will post again later about how I solve problems ect........


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I am also a licensed aircraft mechanic.

 

[Spirit]

Will check those out. Have you looked at Socionics at all? I know it's similar to MBTI with slightly different(expanded) characteristics. I guess its widely used in Eastern Europe/Russia than in the US.

A few years ago I looked into it. It is another type of personality theory. I may check it to find more examples of Ni, Se, Ne. These functions are the most troublesome for INTP's that could be ISTP's.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

For some weird reason this thread has made me reconsider MBTI and it's variants. We have to remember the system/framework was created from Jung's analysis on identifying the CF's of Sensing, Intuition, Feeling, Thinking, and its Introverted/Extroverted sides. There are some inconsistencies in the MBTI system such as why are IP's considered perceivers when they use dominant judging functions - Ti and Fi? IP's are also the most confused about their type, or curious about MBTI in general that I have noticed.

Will check those out. Have you looked at Socionics at all? I know it's similar to MBTI with slightly different(expanded) characteristics. I guess its widely used in Eastern Europe/Russia than in the US.

PersonalityJunkie is the only information source I've come across that recognizes the disconnect between Jung's perceiving and judging functions and MBTI's categorization of Perceiving and Judging types. Socionics doesn't have that issue to begin with, but then it is a whole different system of discussion, I really wouldn't recommend mixing the two systems.

 

[Base groove]

You have Ni and Ne backwards.

I don't think so.........

 

[Analyzer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMHkIM-ohz8

Interesting discussion about how delving deep into the functions can confuse you more then normally when discovering type.

I agree with the premise, but if you want to further understanding it is good to understand and comprehend the functional stack like how Personality Junkie does.

 

[Architect]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMHkIM-ohz8

Interesting discussion about how delving deep into the functions can confuse you more then normally when discovering type.

I agree with the premise, but if you want to further understanding it is good to understand and comprehend the functional stack like how Personality Junkie does.

Ha ha, I knew it was going to be NF Geeks before even clicking the link.

I disagree with him though, as much as I like the guy otherwise. First off he's got it backwards, the Functions were first, then came the preferences with MBTI. Secondly, knowing somebody is a NT doesn't get you half way there, it's just a bare beginning. Thirdly, his cohort said "Clearly your an F, Clearly your a P ... what else do you need".

There's the problem! With P/J it's especially obvious, it's not really clear whether many types are a P or a J. IP types in particular, because they are dominant extraverted judgers, but extroverted perceivers. I mistyped myself as an INTJ for a long time, misunderstanding this issue. And I'd STILL be mistyping myself if it wasn't for that clarity. INTP's have a wide judging streak.

And there is a huge gulf between INTP and INTJ.

 

[Spirit]

I don't think so.........

ok

 

[Spirit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMHkIM-ohz8

Interesting discussion about how delving deep into the functions can confuse you more then normally when discovering type.

I agree with the premise, but if you want to further understanding it is good to understand and comprehend the functional stack like how Personality Junkie does.

I have both of Drenth's books, INTP and 16 Personalities.

 

[Spirit]

Ha ha, I knew it was going to be NF Geeks before even clicking the link.

I disagree with him though, as much as I like the guy otherwise. First off he's got it backwards, the Functions were first, then came the preferences with MBTI. Secondly, knowing somebody is a NT doesn't get you half way there, it's just a bare beginning. Thirdly, his cohort said "Clearly your an F, Clearly your a P ... what else do you need".

There's the problem! With P/J it's especially obvious, it's not really clear whether many types are a P or a J. IP types in particular, because they are dominant extraverted judgers, but extroverted perceivers. I mistyped myself as an INTJ for a long time, misunderstanding this issue. And I'd STILL be mistyping myself if it wasn't for that clarity. INTP's have a wide judging streak.

And there is a huge gulf between INTP and INTJ.

I still think Lenore and Drenth give a much clearer picture of typology that is closer to Jung than a lot of the other resources I have read.

 

[Base groove]

aw damn. I spent close to 30 minutes typing out a response for why the post was Ne and not Ni... .and, now I don't remember what I did with it. Damn

Shitttttyyyy.

I had some good reasons. It's Ne.

 

[Analyzer]

Ha ha, I knew it was going to be NF Geeks before even clicking the link.

I disagree with him though, as much as I like the guy otherwise. First off he's got it backwards, the Functions were first, then came the preferences with MBTI. Secondly, knowing somebody is a NT doesn't get you half way there, it's just a bare beginning. Thirdly, his cohort said "Clearly your an F, Clearly your a P ... what else do you need".

There's the problem! With P/J it's especially obvious, it's not really clear whether many types are a P or a J. IP types in particular, because they are dominant extraverted judgers, but extroverted perceivers. I mistyped myself as an INTJ for a long time, misunderstanding this issue. And I'd STILL be mistyping myself if it wasn't for that clarity. INTP's have a wide judging streak.

And there is a huge gulf between INTP and INTJ.

Yeah they were just saying that for new people not exposed to MBTI, having a general understanding of the 4 groups or 16 personalities it will be easier to discover your type. I think INTPs need to understand the complexity so they can truly understand what they are. By this, looking at functions is important of course. Other types might get more confused by looking at the functions first I am not sure.

 

[Base groove]

I would say identifying yourself as an NT gets you 1/3 of the way there.

Next, are you N or T?

Next, are you I or E?

Don't see what's so hard about that. I'll bet it's got extremely high accuracy provided the original premise is accurate (i.e. NT).

 

[Red myst]

I would say that it is kinesthetic learning.

I think you may be confusing the difference between Ni and Ne.

You are probably interacting with dominate Se and Si users. You would feel out of place. Most of society is Heavy Se and Si users.

As near as I can tell, I am not a heavy "N' user, but when around "S" types, I'm like a fish out of water to them. they don't get me, but I get them

This statement seems like Ni and Fe in an ISTP. Ni expressed in an ISTP is the conspiracy theorist.

This is why I asked you to pick a problem and break it down. You gave me a "get the gist" answer but you didn't break down what I said.

Ok, after re-reading my reply I'm not so sure this is going to help me but here goes.

When there is an electrical problem in unfamiluar electrical control box, I start my trouble shooting by visual inspection first, then I will check for voltage readings around various contact points trying to get a feel for where everything is at. I will operate control switches and observe which indicators, relays and such turn on or off. If there are some relays that are the same, I will swap them around and see if the problem follows the relay. If it does, I know a relay has a burnt contact. Now I could say "problem solved" at this point, but I have to wonder If something further down the line is drawings too much current, causing a slow failure of the relay, or if the relay contacts just wore out. So I would measure the current passing through the relay. And check the amperage rating typically stamped on the relay housing. If that is ok, I stop. If it happens
again, then I know I've got an intermittent problem and start investigating the conditions surrounding the failure. I look at moving parts where cable could be getting pinched occasionally that could be shorting that circut to ground and burning the contact on the relay. If I find nothing, and the failure I sent serious, I will replace the realy again and keep a closer eye on it to see if there is something that is happening at the time that is less obvious.
All of these steps seem fairly obvious to me and are very practical. I don't think they involve much abstract thinking other than to say that the last thing I want to do is to have to pull out the wiring schematic and do a point by point methodical check. I guess what I am experiencing is that my peers start first with a manual and work from there, and I open up a panel with power on it and start touching stuff. They trace out the schematic first and systematically decide what the problem may
be, and I find it hard to start there. I observe overall what the symptoms of the problems are, do a little investigating and elimate the easiest things first before I go to the wiring diagram. I am known for rigging up work arounds for equipment that is not working properly. Like thinking outside the box sort of thing. When trying things by the book don't work out, they call me to take a look at it.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Spirit]

Ok, after re-reading my reply I'm not so sure this is going to help me but here goes.

When there is an electrical problem in unfamiluar electrical control box, I start my trouble shooting by visual inspection first, then I will check for voltage readings around various contact points trying to get a feel for where everything is at. I will operate control switches and observe which indicators, relays and such turn on or off. If there are some relays that are the same, I will swap them around and see if the problem follows the relay. If it does, I know a relay has a burnt contact. Now I could say "problem solved" at this point, but I have to wonder If something further down the line is drawings too much current, causing a slow failure of the relay, or if the relay contacts just wore out. So I would measure the current passing through the relay. And check the amperage rating typically stamped on the relay housing. If that is ok, I stop. If it happens
again, then I know I've got an intermittent problem and start investigating the conditions surrounding the failure. I look at moving parts where cable could be getting pinched occasionally that could be shorting that circut to ground and burning the contact on the relay. If I find nothing, and the failure I sent serious, I will replace the realy again and keep a closer eye on it to see if there is something that is happening at the time that is less obvious.
All of these steps seem fairly obvious to me and are very practical. I don't think they involve much abstract thinking other than to say that the last thing I want to do is to have to pull out the wiring schematic and do a point by point methodical check. I guess what I am experiencing is that my peers start first with a manual and work from there, and I open up a panel with power on it and start touching stuff. They trace out the schematic first and systematically decide what the problem may
be, and I find it hard to start there. I observe overall what the symptoms of the problems are, do a little investigating and elimate the easiest things first before I go to the wiring diagram. I am known for rigging up work arounds for equipment that is not working properly. Like thinking outside the box sort of thing. When trying things by the book don't work out, they call me to take a look at it.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Your other people are using typical "Te" methods to begin their troubleshooting. Te is a step by step logical approach. You are using an Se approach, which is hands one trial and error.

It's ok man, if you want to be an INTP, thats fine but you are troubleshooting in a textbook Se way. Your creativity, if you are an ISTP, is coming from your TiNi connection. It's creativity in the moment because you have a "feel" for it.

If you were using Ne, you wouldn't need to be touching the system to figure it out. You would be mapping out the system in your head and outline 5 different ways of solving the problem before going out to the jet. You would be trying to redesign the the aircraft and spending more time trying to figure all the options in your head. I bet an INTP would be told by the expeditor multiple times, You going to keep talking about it or actually get on the jet and do some work.

 

[Red myst]

I am also a licensed aircraft mechanic.

Cool! I enjoyed it, I worked for a company that had a small fleet of Beechcraft commuter turboprops. It was while I was working as an aircraft mechanic that I continued my education into electronics. I preferred working with the instrumentation/radios/navigation equipment than just working on the airframe or power plant. They were shorthanded of mechanic that would work on electrical problems. Most wanted to work with hand tools and nuts and bolts. Even though electrical systems was part of the training, they did not want to mess with something they could not see. And I mention all of this because this is part of where I think a am a bit different from the typical mechanically oriented istp. Electricity and its path and components have to be mentally visualized. Which I thought was abstract thinking. One could say that electricity and hydraulics are the same. I could certainly draw an analogy of the two..... Check valve is like a diode, tubing is like wiring, voltage is like pressure, current is like hydraulic fluid. And I also understand that analogies themselves are kind of a Se thing. But that just something I got off a website. But I use analogies a lot so I thought it might be a clue. It is how I translate my ideas to make them easier to understand. And sometimes I even use them on myself!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Red myst]

Your other people are using typical "Te" methods to begin their troubleshooting. Te is a step by step logical approach. You are using an Se approach, which is hands one trial and error.

It's ok man, if you want to be an INTP, thats fine but you are troubleshooting in a textbook Se way. Your creativity, if you are an ISTP, is coming from your TiNi connection. It's creativity in the moment because you have a "feel" for it.

If you were using Ne, you wouldn't need to be touching the system to figure it out. You would be mapping out the system in your head and outline 5 different ways of solving the problem before going out to the jet. You would be trying to redesign the the aircraft and spending more time trying to figure all the options in your head. I bet an INTP would be told by the expeditor multiple times, You going to keep talking about it or actually get on the jet and do some work.

Then I am an istp. I would be thinking about 5 different causes of the problem, deciding if I need something in addition that my usual gear, like maybe a/c gauges, a can of freon and a circuit control card if its an a/c problem, then go and fix it, then after it was done, I would take a break and curse the engineers who crammed that a/c system in such a tight spot to get at!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Red myst]

Your other people are using typical "Te" methods to begin their troubleshooting. Te is a step by step logical approach. You are using an Se approach, which is hands one trial and error.

It's ok man, if you want to be an INTP, thats fine but you are troubleshooting in a textbook Se way. Your creativity, if you are an ISTP, is coming from your TiNi connection. It's creativity in the moment because you have a "feel" for it.

If you were using Ne, you wouldn't need to be touching the system to figure it out. You would be mapping out the system in your head and outline 5 different ways of solving the problem before going out to the jet. You would be trying to redesign the the aircraft and spending more time trying to figure all the options in your head. I bet an INTP would be told by the expeditor multiple times, You going to keep talking about it or actually get on the jet and do some work.

So I get this. What looks mysterious to Te users is my TiNi connection, and that kind of looks to them how Dom Ne looks to me. They don't quite trust it. Well I'm going to go back and re-read my books focusing on What you have said here. Perhaps some things will look a little clearer with this new perspective. I really just want to use type to understand what cognitive functions I use and how I apply Them. Why certain things work for me and others do not.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Spirit]

So I get this. What looks mysterious to Te users is my TiNi connection, and that kind of looks to them how Dom Ne looks to me. They don't quite trust it. Well I'm going to go back and re-read my books focusing on What you have said here. Perhaps some things will look a little clearer with this new perspective. I really just want to use type to understand what cognitive functions I use and how I apply Them. Why certain things work for me and others do not.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Exactly, they are thinking in a very literal linear fashion, step by step process.

Remember, Se is very powerful and combining with Ni and Ti, you can visualize all kinds of possibilities to solve your problems. Textures, colors, smells are very important tools in your arsenal. If you have been taught to be perceptive then you will notice even more. Have you ever been around an aircraft and could tell by the sound of a compressor tell which valve was off? I knew and EnE troop that could do this.


Many people assume an Ne for much the same reasons that real life ISTPs sometimes mistype themselves as INTPs. Dominant Ti can seem like intuition, when what is really happening is determination of cause and effect and making logical deductions, and not connecting seemingly unrelated dots to form a bigger picture. You don't need intuition to make connections, if the effect you're seeing implies the relation between an event and a second event, where the second event is understood as a consequence of the first.

 

[Spirit]

Cool! I enjoyed it, I worked for a company that had a small fleet of Beechcraft commuter turboprops. It was while I was working as an aircraft mechanic that I continued my education into electronics. I preferred working with the instrumentation/radios/navigation equipment than just working on the airframe or power plant. They were shorthanded of mechanic that would work on electrical problems. Most wanted to work with hand tools and nuts and bolts. Even though electrical systems was part of the training, they did not want to mess with something they could not see. And I mention all of this because this is part of where I think a am a bit different from the typical mechanically oriented istp. Electricity and its path and components have to be mentally visualized. Which I thought was abstract thinking. One could say that electricity and hydraulics are the same. I could certainly draw an analogy of the two..... Check valve is like a diode, tubing is like wiring, voltage is like pressure, current is like hydraulic fluid. And I also understand that analogies themselves are kind of a Se thing. But that just something I got off a website. But I use analogies a lot so I thought it might be a clue. It is how I translate my ideas to make them easier to understand. And sometimes I even use them on myself!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I used to work on Avionics as well. I used to troubleshoot plenty of GPS fails and changed out many antennas and receivers.

 

[Spirit]

Already I hate the term Mechanic for ISTP. It is only part of what an ISTP can do with the skillset. The term Mechanic was probably created by person that does not have Sensing and cannot recognize why an ISTP would be a great detective or surgeon.