Basic Guidelines for Social Success

[zago]

These are some basic guidelines to follow that take little or no effort. I could think of some that take a bit more effort, but I want to stick to the basics for now.

1. Always have good hygiene. Expect the unexpected - you never want to be caught off guard, running into someone you know without having showered.
2. Always keep your living space presentable and organized. Be a good host, always offer food or a drink to anyone who comes over or tell them to help themselves, and insist that they don't even ask.
3. A friendship has trouble surviving without other people to talk about, even if they are disliked. It's something to bond over.
4. Conversation develops relationships. Saying “hi” is important to maintaining relationships, but eventually relationships will fade without conversation, chit-chat at the very least. Try to say the person's name when greeting them unless very familiar or completely unfamiliar.
5. Small talk is an acceptable ice breaker. Be patient. Throw out lines. Things will open up. Just by leading with a bit of small talk, you are making the person feel more comfortable. Other people find silence just as uncomfortable as you do.
6. A ‘bag of tricks’ is a good way to break the ice as well. Memorize a few jokes, interesting facts, tricks, brainteasers, etc. These work well in groups - use them on your good friends and let them draw interested strangers in. Dropping an interesting fact on someone you just met is kind of random.
7. Wear outfits that ‘pop’ a little bit but not excessively (extremes are usually a bad thing). Bright colors, patterns, and variety of styles (t-shirt, polo, sweater)
8. Stay in good physical shape. Guys show muscle (100 pushups a day). Girls stay trim.
9. Nails clipped, breath smells good, shoes aren’t old and smelly, shirt isn’t stained. Might not hurt to get a tan either, even if you need to do it in a bed.
10. Get to know most people on a basic level (small talk), then talk more to the ones who intrigue you and discard the ones who don’t
11. Avoid social situations in which you won’t be successful / standing around quietly. Duck out ASAP.
12. Supply the fun. Either bring food or drugs (usually alcohol but whatever), or lead an activity. Get people to depend on you. By the way, DON'T get wasted. The right amount is the amount that makes you loosen up.
13. If silence is uncomfortable, attempt to make small talk. If small talk is even more uncomfortable, go back to silence.
14. Brush your teeth twice a day. People find dirty teeth disgusting. Floss once a day.
15. Don't feel forced to say anything in particular, but realize that you are always communicating nonverbally and people sense it whether they consciously recognize it or not. Sense this in others as well. Pay attention to how they make you feel. Don't do something because you think it is what you are supposed to do. Do whatever you feel compelled to do, whatever you think you can safely pull off.
16. It is ok to dislike or even hate people. Some people are worthy of that, even for reasons you don't know but may sense (for instance, near-imperceptible microexpressions could be giving you bad signals). Don't try to be open minded. Have a little self-respect, and just admit, at least to yourself, that you find that person or situation highly unpalatable.

Any others that you can think of?

 

[The Gopher]

Well you lost me at two, but your probably right.

 

[GYX_Kid]

-question what it is you want to get out of socializing in the long run and realize its existence in reality, because if you don't acknowledge and adhere to this somewhat then you may eventually lose that connection to your inner give a fuck

 

[zago]

-question what it is you want to get out of socializing in the long run and realize its existence in reality, because if you don't acknowledge and adhere to this somewhat then you may eventually lose that connection to your inner give a fuck

In my case: lasting friendships with quality people, an attractive and compelling mate, and a general ease of being and aura of respectability. I never really had a give-a-fuck. Never cared about what other people thought, and am just now beginning to see its importance if you want to achieve your goals.

 

[Stoic Beverage]

It's official. Dealing with humans is not worth the bother.

 

[zago]

It's official. Dealing with humans is not worth the bother.

This is a method of finding ones who are worth the bother. Notice, I said to discard people who don't intrigue you. Maybe that's almost everyone. You certainly won't find anyone who meets your standards if you don't prepare yourself for the opportunities that await. Personally, I held your belief for a long time but it turned out to be a vicious circle. I didn't meet desirable people because I didn't mind people, and I didn't mind people because I never met any desirable ones. Trust me, this is not about letting your standards go.

 

[Solitaire U.]

These rules seem like a good way to attract the type of plasticine people who live by surface shit of this nature and will surely cause you a life of agony by demanding that you do likewise.

Screw outfits that pop, small talk, and tidiness obsessions with one's living space...just be yourself and attract others willing to accept you as you.

No offense to OP...

 

[Melllvar]

that take little or no effort.

I disagree.

Also a few these are basically qualities that I really hate in people. Examples:

10. Get to know most people on a basic level (small talk), then talk more to the ones who intrigue you and discard the ones who don’t
11. Avoid social situations in which you won’t be successful / standing around quietly. Duck out ASAP.

 

[zago]

These rules seem like a good way to attract the type of plasticine people who live by surface shit of this nature and will surely cause you a life of agony by demanding that you do likewise.

Screw outfits that pop, small talk, and tidiness obsessions with one's living space...just be yourself and attract others willing to accept you as you.

No offense to OP...

It will attract superficial people yes, but that's only because it will attract virtually everyone. You can treat people as you see fit. Reject them if you don't like them. Who cares? People aren't really so different, anyway - they all tend to have very similar basic drives, and even 'deep' people care about the surface. I say that from my own experience. I know I am not a superficial person, but I do admit that I think appearance is important and am attracted to appearance. I highly appreciate the effort girls put into their appearance, for instance. Actually, I feel that people who shun appearance and these sorts of details are quite sanctimonious and would do well to come down back to Earth a bit. It REALLY isn't that hard to take care of at least some of these basic details.

I disagree.

Also a few these are basically qualities that I really hate in people. Examples:

10. Get to know most people on a basic level (small talk), then talk more to the ones who intrigue you and discard the ones who don’t
11. Avoid social situations in which you won’t be successful / standing around quietly. Duck out ASAP.

Regarding 10: is it really so bad to say "hey, how's it going" to people? I'm a teacher, and every morning I go to the copy room and I usually see a couple teachers I don't know too well. Sometimes I don't feel like saying anything, so I don't, but other times I take the initiative and give a little chit-chat, knowing it will only help me build good relationships. It's your choice, don't forget that. There is no reason not to be conscious of the effects of your actions.

Regarding 11: Would you rather they be miserable? Plenty of parties I have gone to have been horribly boring, even though others were having fun. Last Halloween I went to a costume party and I just wasn't fitting in, was sitting alone on the couch not talking to anyone in a crowded room, watching the clock tick. I got up and left. That situation was not one I could enjoy myself in.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

There was no period of uncertainty, denoted by three question marks, before the last step. Therefore this plan will fail.

 

[ElvenVeil]

is this really true ? these good advices just seem stupid to me.. but then again, perhaps they are what makes a good social person.. hmm will have to concider them

 

[zago]

is this really true ? these good advices just seem stupid to me.. but then again, perhaps they are what makes a good social person.. hmm will have to concider them

They actually are sort of common sense. Then again, sometimes people need a good knock on the head with the obvious. I know I could have used it. Really wish I could re-do high school and college with these things in mind. It goes to show that you don't have to be too fancy or re-invent the wheel - just do a few basic things and you'll have success. It's not a "you must do these" list as much as a "these actions will get these results" list.

 

[Bird]

I present the qualities that I look for in others.

I do not fulfill all sixteen requirements in your
list and I find some rather annoying.

 

[Melllvar]

Regarding 10: is it really so bad to say "hey, how's it going" to people? I'm a teacher, and every morning I go to the copy room and I usually see a couple teachers I don't know too well. Sometimes I don't feel like saying anything, so I don't, but other times I take the initiative and give a little chit-chat, knowing it will only help me build good relationships. It's your choice, don't forget that. There is no reason not to be conscious of the effects of your actions.

Regarding 11: Would you rather they be miserable? Plenty of parties I have gone to have been horribly boring, even though others were having fun. Last Halloween I went to a costume party and I just wasn't fitting in, was sitting alone on the couch not talking to anyone in a crowded room, watching the clock tick. I got up and left. That situation was not one I could enjoy myself in.

I think we had a miscommunication. I'm all for being polite and courteous to people, acknowledging their presence, etc., and I also agree that if you're bored and not enjoying yourself you should leave. I do that all the time. With 10 it was the 'disregard people who don't interest you' thing I didn't like, and with 11 it was the 'actively avoid situations that aren't favorable to you' thing.

I know people who do both these things constantly. They've obviously adopted them as standard operating procedure, and it's like they treat their entire lives as some kind of business networking conference. They'll immediately ditch out on any situation where they can't be the alpha-male/center-of-attention. They'll also be superficially friendly with everyone but then turn their backs on anyone that they don't consider advantageous to their social advancement. It's all part of some game to advance their social standing by any means necessary. Among other things, such people are false and untrustworthy.

 

[Solitaire U.]

I think the fundamental problem I have with your rules is that they tend to legitimize shit like "Yeah sure, she's well-dressed and doesn't have bad breath, but there's no way she could be a person of substance because she's 60 lbs overweight." It would be one thing if you were selling it as "How to get laid at parties..." but as basic guidelines for social success too many people I know, like my schizophrenic nephew for example, get the shaft. A society that would do this is a sanctimonious one indeed, and I simply prefer to tell it's adherents to get fucked, for sake of preserving integrity.

If this is what you feel is necessary to find the wife, friends, etc. go to it brother, but it's not the only way.

 

[zago]

I think the fundamental problem I have with your rules is that they tend to legitimize shit like "Yeah sure, she's well-dressed and doesn't have bad breath, but there's no way she could be a person of substance because she's 60 lbs overweight." It would be one thing if you were selling it as "How to get laid at parties..." but as basic guidelines for social success too many people I know, like my schizophrenic nephew for example, get the shaft. A society that would do this is a sanctimonious one indeed, and I simply prefer to tell it's adherents to get fucked, for sake of preserving integrity.

If this is what you feel is necessary to find the wife, friends, etc. go to it brother, but it's not the only way.

This whole post confuses me but I guess I'll just say I'm stuck on the first part. It doesn't make sense. I laid out these guidelines as criteria to be followed for personal gain, not to judge people on. My message is: control what you can control; present the best version of yourself. I never said anything like what you've brought this to--not even close. Your argument is emotionally powerful but illogical. It's a straw man.. you've created a belief that I never put forth, and then vehemently torn it down in a display of, again, sanctimony (as if I don't believe fat or schizophrenic people can have substance, calling me "brother," etc.).

 

[MissQuote]

I took the whole list as a guidline for how to get along well with minimal discomfort in a social situation (which in and of itself can be rather laborious) not a guidline for how to make friends.

dammit, my phone is ringing.

 

[zago]

I took the whole list as a guidline for how to get along well with minimal discomfort in a social situation (which in and of itself can be rather laborious) not a guidline for how to make friends.

That is true, but I see the two as closely connected.

 

[MissQuote]

Well yes, the two are related, for me it would be more of initiating and maintaing good relations with people who could potentially become friends at some future date when we like eachother enough for both of us to be comfortable with none of that stuff mattering on an every single interaction basis.

I don't see social interaction as the real substance in my friendships, if that makes sense. I'm not sure that is exactly what I mean.

I mean, if I am friends with someone, actual friends not aquaintences, of course I am still going to want to be presentable and pleasant and have my space, if they enter it, likewise, but by the time we are friends it isn't necessary for every interaction.

 

[a detached retina]

I agree with all of your guidelines except those that deal with interaction with other humans.

I think the good guidelines you have set forth boil down to: Look good, smell good, keep your possessions looking good and smelling good.

However I disagree that these are easy.

 

[Reluctantly]

Holy shit. That's a lot of work. What if I just want to meet the bare minimum of social success; what do I have to do then?

 

[Lobstrich]

Is this thread a joke? I don't mean to be ignorant. But really? "Remember to shower, it will lead to social success" Do you guys honestly need guidelines to social success?

Don't get me wrong though, I do not boast 'social success' (what is social success anyway?) I know what I need to do, to have people like me. I just choose not to do those things if I do not want to. Like I assume most of you guys do as well, hence I'm asking if this thread is a joke.

 

[xbox]

If I followed the list, I wouldn't be who I am anymore.

Well I do shower, I think cleanliness is a basic necessity.. but the other stuff.. nah. For example, I can't keep my room clean. It just gets messy, and I keep putting it off. Until that one day, I get into binge-cleaning mode. Then the cycle starts all over again. Thats just who I am.

I just like to think to myself, that socially, someone like me would be one of the 'last' ones to finish. Means it takes me longer to make friends, will take me longer to get into a relationship, but whatever.. I'm satisfied.

The only thing I actually worry about is optimizing intellectual pursuits, and the outside world vs. me.

 

[Lobstrich]

If I followed the list, I wouldn't be who I am anymore

Exactly! We can all follow a list and adhere to social norms to gain 'social success' (I keep doing that because I'm still wondering what 'social success' really is) But then we wouldn't be ourselves, or well we would be in a way. Since "ourselves" wants to adhere.

I don't even think any of us on this forum needs this list, I think we all know that these things are the norms in many cultures. But as I said in my other post. Alot of us just choose to ignore these norms.

 

[MissQuote]

I thought the whole list could use a little reorganization, in order for better clarity, with seperate catagories for the different types of tips and what they relate to on the whole scale of being social. I didn't re-number then though because it seemed like too much of a bother. Also, I diagree with the bit about needing a tan.

I hope this doesn't seem rude, I thought there was a lot of stuff that had to do with completely different topics/sub topics and sorting it all out a bit better would help... I was sort of just playing with it and now have an urge to post it. I don't know.



Important Personal

1. Always have good hygiene. Expect the unexpected - you never want to be caught off guard, running into someone you know without having showered.

14. Brush your teeth twice a day. People find dirty teeth disgusting. Floss once a day.

9. Nails clipped, breath smells good, shoes aren’t old and smelly, shirt isn’t stained. Might not hurt to get a tan either, even if you need to do it in a bed.


8. Stay in good physical shape. Guys show muscle (100 pushups a day). Girls stay trim.


Polite Initial Interactions


4. Conversation develops relationships. Saying “hi” is important to maintaining relationships, but eventually relationships will fade without conversation, chit-chat at the very least. Try to say the person's name when greeting them unless very familiar or completely unfamiliar.

5. Small talk is an acceptable ice breaker. Be patient. Throw out lines. Things will open up. Just by leading with a bit of small talk, you are making the person feel more comfortable. Other people find silence just as uncomfortable as you do.

10. Get to know most people on a basic level (small talk), then talk more to the ones who intrigue you and discard the ones who don’t



Sharing/More Intimate Interacting

2. Always keep your living space presentable and organized. Be a good host, always offer food or a drink to anyone who comes over or tell them to help themselves, and insist that they don't even ask.

12. Supply the fun. Either bring food or drugs (usually alcohol but whatever), or lead an activity. Get people to depend on you. By the way, DON'T get wasted. The right amount is the amount that makes you loosen up.



Lower/Secondary Sharing/or possible ice breakers

3. A friendship has trouble surviving without other people to talk about, even if they are disliked. It's something to bond over.

6. A ‘bag of tricks’ is a good way to break the ice as well. Memorize a few jokes, interesting facts, tricks, brainteasers, etc. These work well in groups - use them on your good friends and let them draw interested strangers in. Dropping an interesting fact on someone you just met is kind of random.


7. Wear outfits that ‘pop’ a little bit but not excessively (extremes are usually a bad thing). Bright colors, patterns, and variety of styles (t-shirt, polo, sweater)



Polite Escaping

11. Avoid social situations in which you won’t be successful / standing around quietly. Duck out ASAP.

13. If silence is uncomfortable, attempt to make small talk. If small talk is even more uncomfortable, go back to silence.

15. Don't feel forced to say anything in particular, but realize that you are always communicating nonverbally and people sense it whether they consciously recognize it or not. Sense this in others as well. Pay attention to how they make you feel. Don't do something because you think it is what you are supposed to do. Do whatever you feel compelled to do, whatever you think you can safely pull off.

16. It is ok to dislike or even hate people. Some people are worthy of that, even for reasons you don't know but may sense (for instance, near-imperceptible microexpressions could be giving you bad signals). Don't try to be open minded. Have a little self-respect, and just admit, at least to yourself, that you find that person or situation highly unpalatable.

 

[Hadoblado]

I think OP has the right of it. Some of these things will not be an issue for some, but if they are, then following these instructions certainly won't hurt your social success.
Showering seems to be one that people seem to doubt can be an issue. If I don't foresee leaving the house I sometimes don't shower, this can and will backfire if someone spontaneously visits. It's actually really easy not to shower once you fall out of the habit, you become immune to the smell so there is pretty much no downside if you're on your own (self hatred being the exception).

 

[RubberDucky451]

(100 pushups a day)

Anyway, I find myself the most socially successful when I'm relaxed. I'm not in this state very often but It does allow me to talk to strangers more easily.

 

[Hadoblado]

Consumption of many beers and a willing ear with high 'N' function is my best social environment. When people start talking details I become completely withdrawn as I simply cannot bring myself to care.

 

[sammael]

I don't think social success is quite the right way of putting it, especially as this probably isn't a priority for most people on intpf. However the intention of the OP seems obvious enough, to share methods of making social interaction more bearable/easy. I don't agree all of these are necessary or accurate, but the general drift is apparent. It is never a bad thing to be liked and to get on with at least some ease with others, even if that is contrived.

I present the qualities that I look for in others.

I like this. The OP was very generic, this is a more individualised approach. I think it is not so much what exactly is being done, but that something is being done, and for some purpose. No effort = no results.

If this is what you feel is necessary to find the wife, friends, etc. go to it brother, but it's not the only way.

Care to share some other ways..? Out of curiosity.

If I followed the list, I wouldn't be who I am anymore.

I just like to think to myself, that socially, someone like me would be one of the 'last' ones to finish. Means it takes me longer to make friends, will take me longer to get into a relationship, but whatever.. I'm satisfied.

The only thing I actually worry about is optimizing intellectual pursuits, and the outside world vs. me.

Exactly! We can all follow a list and adhere to social norms to gain 'social success' (I keep doing that because I'm still wondering what 'social success' really is) But then we wouldn't be ourselves, or well we would be in a way. Since "ourselves" wants to adhere.

I don't even think any of us on this forum needs this list, I think we all know that these things are the norms in many cultures. But as I said in my other post. Alot of us just choose to ignore these norms.

This is an excuse, a means of justifying your inadequacy. I have heard it many times before, indeed, even used it myself, and in this context it is always used to explain some shortcoming. Social incompetence is not 'just who someone is'. It is not something you have no control over, nor something you cannot change. Of course certain people/personality types are predisposed one way or the other, but competent social interaction is a learned process, almost an art form, if you will.
That brings the question of how relevant this is to you, or each individual. Yes, perhaps you don't care, perhaps you value your 'uniqueness', perhaps you have more important things to concern yourself with, that is for you to decide.
We could go more into depth about norms and their purpose and variations, but that would be rather too off topic.

Taking out #6, 7, the tan part of 9, and perhaps 12, how is the implementation of any of these compromising your identity or who you are..?

 

[zago]

I think OP has the right of it. Some of these things will not be an issue for some, but if they are, then following these instructions certainly won't hurt your social success.
Showering seems to be one that people seem to doubt can be an issue. If I don't foresee leaving the house I sometimes don't shower, this can and will backfire if someone spontaneously visits. It's actually really easy not to shower once you fall out of the habit, you become immune to the smell so there is pretty much no downside if you're on your own (self hatred being the exception).

Right. I often got into the habit of not showering if I didn't think I was doing anything or seeing anyone important that day. Wound up being weekends, mostly. Also, I would leave my apartment incredibly trashed. People knocked on the door and I wouldn't even answer it because it was embarrassingly messy. I made the list from experience. Every single one is something I've struggled with at times - maybe not always but enough for it to be too much. I mean, you should never really go out without having showered. I used to do that all the time if I didn't think I'd see anyone important.

If you think this list is a joke, I guess you're just more adept at doing these things naturally, which is good for you. It's not a joke though and actually makes good sense considering INTPs have inferior Fe. Like I said, ya'll, BASIC guidelines. I'm not saying you have to go out and buy the latest style of shoes every 2 weeks or only listen to the coolest and most popular music. You don't have to make social trends and rules your primary way of thinking. Just follow a few bare necessities and you'll find a greater harmony with people. From most people's perspective it's the least you can do.

I didn't think people cared about these sorts of things until a good friend who I look up to expressed his thoughts about people who don't have clean teeth, smell, etc. I honestly never really cared too much about people's hygiene and such, at least not enough to consciously think about it much, so finding out how people think was enlightening.

Last, if you feel like your lack of adherence to the things on this list makes you who you are, you might want to stop fearing success and define yourself in some more substantial ways. This is another, but more time consuming, benchmark for social success--what do you contribute, how do people know you? I've recently decided to start playing more guitar, educating myself with flashcards, and getting in better shape, among other things, for this reason. I was highly influenced by a section of a book which shall not be named in which a wife who was fed up with her sleazy husband asked him what she was supposed to love him for. He just kept on saying, "you're supposed to love me for ME!" and never offered any concrete reason he should be liked. That was a little tough for me to swallow at first, but now I find it very important. You can't expect people to like you without being of some value to them, whether it is your sense of humor, your loyalty, your knowledge, your skills, etc. etc.

 

[Lobstrich]

This is an excuse, a means of justifying your inadequacy. I have heard it many times before, indeed, even used it myself, and in this context it is always used to explain some shortcoming. Social incompetence is not 'just who someone is'. It is not something you have no control over, nor something you cannot change. Of course certain people/personality types are predisposed one way or the other, but competent social interaction is a learned process, almost an art form, if you will.
That brings the question of how relevant this is to you, or each individual. Yes, perhaps you don't care, perhaps you value your 'uniqueness', perhaps you have more important things to concern yourself with, that is for you to decide.
We could go more into depth about norms and their purpose and variations, but that would be rather too off topic.

So if I do not agree with the norms I'm making an excuse because I suck to much at life to be part of the norm? Wow.... Okay..

EDIT: I mean come on that's just ridiculous. You basically saying that everyone who doesn't like Justin Bieber and Britney Spears, are socially incompetent. And if I don't like to small talk with people, I'm socially incompetent. And if I can't be bothered to stay in 'good physical shape' I'm socially incompetent...... I must be socially incompetent, it can't be because I just cannot be bothered, it can't.. Really?

 

[zago]

Point is, we all have aspirations and dreams that we would love to achieve, and most people have figured out ways to bury those dreams and avoid them in any way possible. They come up with any excuse they can to explain why the dreams are too much for them. I'm just going from my own experience here, but I would have said the same thing as a way to excuse my low social standing. Truth is I always wanted to be a cool kid. I don't care if you think it is shallow. To me life has become about getting what I want. Once I get something, if I don't care for it, I'll move on to the next thing.

 

[kantor1003]

Having a "how to not be a social reject", or a "how to be a social conformist" list is not "cool" in any sense of the word.

 

[Lobstrich]

Point is, we all have aspirations and dreams that we would love to achieve, and most people have figured out ways to bury those dreams and avoid them in any way possible. They come up with any excuse they can to explain why the dreams are too much for them. I'm just going from my own experience here, but I would have said the same thing as a way to excuse my low social standing. Truth is I always wanted to be a cool kid. I don't care if you think it is shallow. To me life has become about getting what I want. Once I get something, if I don't care for it, I'll move on to the next thing.

Sure.. I want people to like me as well, I want to have all the girls chasing me of course. But not at the cost of my personal integrity. If I do not want to pay the price that is asked for being popular, I do not want to pay the price. I'm not making excuses.

Speaking of prices. If you see a 10k Dollar computer and you really want it, but you do not want to pay the thousand dollars for it. Then you're making excuses for your economic standing, according to your and sammaels logic.
We could all get ten thousand dollars at some point, some faster than other. But the fact that you just do not want to pay ten thousand for a computer does not mean that you is making excuses. It means that you just simply, do not want to pay ten thousand dollars for a computer.

 

[zago]

Having a "how to not be a social reject", or a "how to be a social conformist" list is not "cool" in any sense of the word.

Why not? If I had seen this list before, I would have found it very helpful and would have appreciated it. That's cool. Being cool isn't about style, it's about being liked, or being important to people.

Sure.. I want people to like me as well, I want to have all the girls chasing me of course. But not at the cost of my personal integrity. If I do not want to pay the price that is asked for being popular, I do not want to pay the price. I'm not making excuses.

What price? It's a great fucking bargain, as I see it! I don't think you quite realize how spectacular it is to be popular.

Speaking of prices. If you see a 10k Dollar computer and you really want it, but you do not want to pay the thousand dollars for it. Then you're making excuses for your economic standing, according to your and sammaels logic.
We could all get ten thousand dollars at some point, some faster than other. But the fact that you just do not want to pay ten thousand for a computer does not mean that you is making excuses. It means that you just simply, do not want to pay ten thousand dollars for a computer.

But this is better than a computer, and it costs much less than 10,000 dollars. It is easily attainable - the guidelines are not hard to follow. A better analogy is, 'the door is open, you just have to walk through.'

Also, since when is a lack of consistent hygiene a matter of personal integrity? Really?

 

[Lobstrich]

What price? It's a great fucking bargain, as I see it! I don't think you quite realize how spectacular it is to be popular.

That is what's so great about opinions. We are all allowed to have one. But mine is apparently invalid, I'm just making excuses. I do not think it's a 'great fucking bargain' and I do not think it's spectacular to be popular. I much prefer just being like by the people I like. But I guess I'm just making excuses, so you're right we all want to be liked by the entire world, and we all want to do what's necessary for that to happen. Those who claim to not want to be popular or to do what it takes. They are just making excuses because they suck at life.

But this is better than a computer, and it costs much less than 10,000 dollars. It is easily attainable - the guidelines are not hard to follow. A better analogy is, 'the door is open, you just have to walk through.'

I disagree.. I think integrity, truth and 'me' ('me' in what I am, what I stand for, my opnions, my beliefs, everything.) is a far greater price than ten thousand dollars. You believe it's easy to sell yourself out, to act as everybody wants you to act you'll get to become 'popular' after all. I do not know if I find it easy as I have never tried to mold myself after what people want me to be. Nor will I ever know, as I will never do such a thing to myself. I am what I am.

Also, since when is a lack of consistent hygiene a matter of personal integrity? Really?

Don't be ridiculous. You know that wasn't what I was saying. If that all you got out from the point I was going to make, I'm not going to waste more time.

 

[sammael]

So if I do not agree with the norms I'm making an excuse because I suck to much at life to be part of the norm? Wow.... Okay.

First you must define norms. I think your understanding is a bit too generic. Social norms are the behaviours within a society or group (note there is a difference between these two). The rules that a group uses for appropriate and inappropriate values, beliefs, attitudes and behaviours. These vary and evolve not only through time but also vary from between social classes and social groups.What is deemed to be acceptable dress, speech or behaviour in one social group may not be accepted in another.

I do understand not agreeing or conforming to 'appropriate and inappropriate values, beliefs, attitudes and behaviours'. Of course everyone will have a different perspective regarding these things. The 'customary rules of behaviour that coordinate our interactions with others' aren't going to suit everyone. I agree that a lot of society's norms are ridiculous and unnecessary.

EDIT: I mean come on that's just ridiculous. You basically saying that everyone who doesn't like Justin Bieber and Britney Spears, are socially incompetent.

Liking Justin Bieber and Britney Spears is not a society norm, nor does it affect social standing or skill (unless you are a 12 year old girl perhaps).

And if I don't like to small talk with people, I'm socially incompetent.

Not liking something has nothing to do with incompetence. You can still be skilled, or at least capable of doing the not liked when the situation requires (even if the only situation you care to do this is one that directly benefits you).

And if I can't be bothered to stay in 'good physical shape' I'm socially incompetent...... I must be socially incompetent, it can't be because I just cannot be bothered, it can't.. Really?

You're taking this out of context. It was a part of a whole, and anyway I agree that physical traits do not necessarily have to have anything to do with social competence or incompetence.

Your reasoning is that you cannot be bothered to be socially competent. Keep in mind social competence does not have to mean popular or outgoing or conforming, simply that you can interact with ease with others when required, or wanted. How is this anything but a good thing..? How does this compromise your integrity..? How is this agreeing with norms..?

Having a "how to not be a social reject", or a "how to be a social conformist" list is not "cool" in any sense of the word.

These are two vastly different things, not being a social reject does not make one a social conformist. I understand not conforming to society's rules and expectations, which is where a lot of the negativity is coming from. I simply do not understand why it is thought possessing social skills makes one a conformist. It is simply a learnt pattern of behaviour, not an attitude or mindset of conformity. It doesn't have to make one popular, or fit in, or 'normal'.

Speaking of prices. If you see a 10k Dollar computer and you really want it, but you do not want to pay the thousand dollars for it. Then you're making excuses for your economic standing, according to your and sammaels logic.
We could all get ten thousand dollars at some point, some faster than other. But the fact that you just do not want to pay ten thousand for a computer does not mean that you is making excuses. It means that you just simply, do not want to pay ten thousand dollars for a computer.

Where money = effort, then yes, if you really want to have social skills, but are not prepared to put in the effort required you are making excuses for your social standing. It is not comparable to money which one may or may not have, effort is/can always be there. Effort is available, the desire (to have social skills) is there, but there is no desire to put effort in to achieve that desire..?

 

[Lobstrich]

First you must define norms. I think your understanding is a bit too generic. Social norms are the behaviours within a society or group (note there is a difference between these two). The rules that a group uses for appropriate and inappropriate values, beliefs, attitudes and behaviours. These vary and evolve not only through time but also vary from between social classes and social groups.What is deemed to be acceptable dress, speech or behaviour in one social group may not be accepted in another.

Well you're agreeing with me. I didn't quote the rest of your post as I do not really see the point in your answers. They are missing the point of this entire debate. My understanding is a bit to generic? How is that? Because yours is better? There is no 'right thing' in this world. If have my definition of 'norm' and so do you. And what must I define about the word? Norm is the opposite of minority. It's a synonym of the majority that which is 'normal'

I was using examples such "being physically fit" because that's the points zago had in his guide. It was not taken out of context, at all. You said that everyone who did not agree with the social norms or 'society norms' were making excuses, and not that they just didn't agree with the norms.

Oh, I almost forgot! Thank you for lectuing me on what social norms are. I had absolutely no idea that they could differ from social classes, thank you for telling me.

EDIT: "Liking Justin Bieber and Britney Spears is not a society norm, nor does it affect social standing or skill (unless you are a 12 year old girl perhaps)." - You're not getting the point of me saying that, I guess. Justin Bieber and Britney Spears were examples. It can be any musician or band. And yes, wow.. Yes. Your taste in music, movies, clothes well everything. You're opinions and beliefs etc. They affect your social standing alot. If people think that you're 'weird' then your social standing will drop. If you like what everyone else likes, it will rise.


"Not liking something has nothing to do with incompetence." - I agree with this. But that was exactly what you said. You said that people who did not adhere to society norms. Were incompetent, that they were making excuses.

 

[zago]

I don't see what's wrong with doing something for more than one reason. Being clean is a good idea, but for the most part we do it because other people expect us to; we do it for personal gain. I don't shower every morning because I feel like a cleaning is essential to my health--I do it so people don't ridicule me. Just an example.

Here's another one: if I could go back in time, I would have played the guitar a lot more in college. What I never realized was that playing guitar freshman year got me my first girlfriend. This led to one of the best periods of my life. After a few months and the end of the relationship, I eventually stopped learning new stuff on the guitar, got bored with it, and stopped picking it up. All the time, girls told me that they loved guys who play guitar. I was an idiot, though, and didn't think of anyone but myself and what guitar meant to me. Part of the pleasure of doing things is pleasing other people with them. It is wrong to look at things as if they exist in a vacuum. I, for whatever reason, refused to acknowledge other people's existence and factor it into my reasoning. I neglected the fact that playing guitar pleased people other than me and was therefore of more value to me because it helped get me what I wanted.

I also used to wear sandals ALL THE TIME. My threshold was actually around 25 degrees F, at which point I would grudgingly take the time to put some shoes on. I still wouldn't give a fuck if I didn't have other goals I were working on that make it more advantageous to wear shoes. Those goals make it worth the extra effort to wear shoes even if it isn't that cold. Yes, I'm trying to build relationships and need to avoid looking like a nut. Frankly, I don't care any more if it seems almost amoral to 'fake it' and make people think I'm like them. It's actually kind of interesting, because I feel like a wolf in sheep's clothing. I don't need to go around flaunting how smart and enlightened I am because I know I can wear sandals while all the other idiots wear shoes. I can just blend in with the crowd, enjoying the fact that people are now unable to identify me offhand as an outcast; indeed, they will have to get to know me a little first before discarding me... but I'll have them before they really figure it all out. It's true: INTPs are smarter than a good 90 percent of people in general... what a waste to refuse to apply this intellect toward getting what you want out of them.

Let's look at this from a different perspective. What if I went to an ESFJ forum, if one existed, and made a thread about examining your beliefs, and gave some basic guidelines to help them out with it. I find that many people, many of them ESFJs, do not seem to have ever agonized over their beliefs for one moment of their lives, and for that reason are limited by them. Ask ESFJs to examine their religious beliefs, and you'll get angry ESFJs--guaranteed. We INTPs know, though, that examining your religious beliefs, in the long run, turns out to be a liberating and beneficial endeavor. The inferior function presents us with more than just a blind spot: it is something we actively rebel against because it seems in conflict with our dominant function. Ti tells us that missing a shower on Sunday will not affect our health or wellbeing in any significant way--and it is right! We overlook, though, the obvious social implications of looking a mess. Furthermore, we say to ourselves, "so what if I'm a little grungy? How does this affect anyone?" Another good point, but we have to look at it from the standpoint of our goals.

What causes us to identify with this lack of regard for other people is Si. We say to ourselves, this is ME. I don't bother with details that other people care about, because I find them distasteful. This is a problem of looking at things from a solely introverted perspective. Ti analyzes the problem in real, survivalist terms: skipping my shower today won't damage my health in any way. Small talk is not informative. Si identifies with it: this is just who I am. I must establish and maintain consistency. As anyone who's read Lenore Thompson's Personality Type knows, the recommended approach is ambiverted, or, uses an introverted and an extroverted function. Incorporating Ne means bringing creative, action-based ideas to accomplish goals and desires. This is an improvement on the passive, thought-based tertiary Si, which means to identify with and 'stick to' one's habits and past as a sort of internal anchor.

What switching from Si to Ne means, then, is to stop identifying so heavily and uselessly to one's old ways of thinking and start actively analyzing situations in terms of what actions will yield the desired outcome. You shift away from whatever story you tell yourself to explain your lack of fulfillment. So, instead of running the rat race, drifting through days wearing the same old shoes, you are approaching situations critically and actively participating in the achievement of your own goals, whatever they may be.

So let's break this down one more time, as it applies to the INTP:

Ti: Timeless, culture-less view of reality. Independent, liberated, immediate, unbiased and raw, but sometimes uninformed because of lack of processing.
Ne: Strategy generator. Another INTP strong-suit, giving them a huge advantage IF USED consciously. Being extroverted, is able to factor social expectations into strategies and use them to benefit.
Si: Internal anchor. Gives a moral framework based on past and present experience. INTPs have a tendency to overuse because of introverted preference, to the point of becoming a martyr over minor details.
Fe: Awareness of and compliance with the expectations of society. INTPs usually aware of these expectations, but feel they conflict with Ti. However, this perceived conflict is often due to the omission of other people's influence, which is inescapable.

 

[sammael]

Well you're agreeing with me. I didn't quote the rest of your post as I do not really see the point in your answers. They are missing the point of this entire debate.

Then enlighten me, please.

My understanding is a bit to generic? How is that? Because yours is better? There is no 'right thing' in this world. If have my definition of 'norm' and so do you. And what must I define about the word? Norm is the opposite of minority. It's a synonym of the majority that which is 'normal'

This is the reason for my explanation. The word norm has a meaning, as I explained above. You cannot interpret the meaning of the word in your own way, this just leads to confusion. The interpretation of what a norm is is open, it being dependant on the society or social group. Your definition is incorrect, it is not a synonym for majority, that is the reason i said your understanding is too generic. It depends on the usage of the word. Society norms i agree, generally relate to the acceptable behaviour of the majority. However these are very different to group norms, both in type and severity. Society norms are more about functioning/coexisting together not conforming to a particular style or pattern. That is the domain of group norms, where identity becomes more important. We are not debating how to coexist (society norms), we are debating the effects or meanings of social interaction/competence (group norms).

You said that everyone who did not agree with the social norms or 'society norms' were making excuses, and not that they just didn't agree with the norms.

Oh really..? Can you explain how you got this impression please? Quotes would be helpful.
EDIT: When I quoted your first norms post I was questioning your reasoning, if that was not apparent. I still can't understand how you managed to draw such strong literal conclusions from that though.

You're not getting the point of me saying that, I guess. Justin Bieber and Britney Spears were examples. It can be any musician or band. And yes, wow.. Yes. Your taste in music, movies, clothes well everything. You're opinions and beliefs etc. They affect your social standing alot. If people think that you're 'weird' then your social standing will drop. If you like what everyone else likes, it will rise.

Yes, everyone has different tastes in music, movies, clothes, opinions, beliefs etc. That means not everyone likes the same thing, and is not the same. Thus there being different social groups, and the possibility of social standing being completely different within different groups. You appear to be basing your opinions/perceptions on a particular group, that being the 'popular' people. But these are by no means the majority, nor the only socially competent people or group.

"Not liking something has nothing to do with incompetence." - I agree with this. But that was exactly what you said. You said that people who did not adhere to society norms. Were incompetent, that they were making excuses.

Once again, explanation please..?
EDIT: Actually forget about explaining it. There's no use in arguing this, it was a misunderstanding, I only just realised. I didn't think it would be taken so literal, I was arguing against concepts. There goes my INTP assuming people know what i know/are on the same page at work. None of what i said in that first post was in regard to norms, i do not think people who do not adhere to norms are incompetent or making excuses, just to be clear.

 

[Lobstrich]

This is an excuse, a means of justifying your inadequacy.

There you go. My explanation of why I drew that conclusion. But I agree, I think we just misunderstood each other. As we were actually agreeing in the last post.

 

[Lobstrich]

@ Zago - Is that wall for me? *sigh* Okay, I'll read it, later. And reply, of course.

 

[zago]

@ Zago - Is that wall for me? *sigh* Okay, I'll read it, later. And reply, of course.

I appreciate it. I spent a lot of time and thought on it, and actually thought to myself, "if I just wrote that whole fucking thing and no one replies to it I am going to fuckin shoot myself." I'm pretty proud of it.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

"11. Avoid all social situations."

I'm ok with this.

 

[Lobstrich]

I appreciate it. I spent a lot of time and thought on it, and actually thought to myself, "if I just wrote that whole fucking thing and no one replies to it I am going to fuckin shoot myself." I'm pretty proud of it.

Sure, I'd probably feel the same. Even though I do not believe in suicide. I'd just like to point out that the sigh wasn't intented as an 'omg' but rather a "That's alot, I'm lazy" Just in case you were wondering.

 

[zago]

Sure, I'd probably feel the same. Even though I do not believe in suicide. I'd just like to point out that the sigh wasn't intented as an 'omg' but rather a "That's alot, I'm lazy" Just in case you were wondering.

Lol well I mean ya know, as a figure of speech.

 

[Melllvar]

All the time, girls told me that they loved guys who play guitar.

Lol, yeah I've noticed that one. In fact if I ever have a male child I'm definitely getting him some guitar lessons. He'll thank me when he's older.

 

[xbox]

zago,

That's cool that you played the guitar and it got you your first girlfriend. Its also normal to get sick of something. I have to disagree with your logic though. It's just fake to do things for the purpose of gaining pleasure from other people.

I mean if you don't enjoy something, don't do it. Do something else that you like and get appreciated for it. I don't mean go outside without having showered for weeks with raggy clothes either. I just don't agree with the concept of doing something "socially accepted", just for the sake of pleasing others.

I think that's what differentiates an INTP from everyone else. That is a concept that I will never identify with. I don't think I will be able to live with myself or look at myself in the mirror if I did things for gaining the pleasure from someone else. Once they get sick of you, the joke's on you. Who cares what other people like? You seem to be really concerned with what people think of you, and this all just seems really familiar of just another someone attempting to save us from a frighteningly eternal social damnation.

 

[zago]

Lol, yeah I've noticed that one. In fact if I ever have a male child I'm definitely getting him some guitar lessons. He'll thank me when he's older.

That's what I told one of my students to do, I hope he winds up doing it. He is a good kid but really nerdy, plays yugio (sp?) in high school and such, and he always tells me he has a crush on such-and-such girl but they always politely turn him down.

zago,

That's cool that you played the guitar and it got you your first girlfriend. Its also normal to get sick of something. I have to disagree with your logic though. It's just fake to do things for the purpose of gaining pleasure from other people. I think that is one of the major things that differentiates an INTP from everyone else. That is a concept that I will never identify with. I don't think I will be able to live with myself or look at myself in the mirror if I did things for gaining the pleasure from someone else. Once they get sick of you, the joke's on you. Who cares what other people like? You seem to be really concerned with what people think of you, and this all just seems really familiar of just another someone attempting to save us from a frighteningly eternal social damnation.

I used to try to pretend I didn't care what people thought of me, but at this point in my life, I do, and there is no getting around it. I just kind of live with it and act accordingly. It also depends on how close they are to me. I care more about what friends and family think. It's not something I have chosen--it's just what I perceive. I suspect that this is the case for others to, whether they say so or not. I actually probably care less about what others think than most. Like I said, I have always been the type to wear sandals in the snow.

But I think you're looking at the whole guitar playing thing in a vacuum. Take a different example: telling jokes. Are jokes best when you read them and laugh to yourself, or is it more fun to hear them told well or tell them yourself and make people laugh? It's the same with playing an instrument--performance is kind of implied when you play an instrument. It's a part of the experience. You don't practice the thing for hours and hours just so you can enjoy yourself and play music for yourself to enjoy. That's great and all, but a great deal of the reward comes from impressing other people with your developed skills. I've played guitar for like 10 years and never wanted to play in front of people much, and never really improved much. Finally this understanding came to me, and I recently played guitar after dinner while visiting my family and all were impressed, said I sounded like I knew what I was doing. It meant something to me, and I think it has influenced their thoughts about me as well.

 

[a detached retina]

16. It is ok to dislike or even hate people. Some people are worthy of that, even for reasons you don't know but may sense (for instance, near-imperceptible microexpressions could be giving you bad signals). DON'T TRY TO BE OPEN MINDED. Have a little self-respect, and just admit, at least to yourself, that you find that person or situation highly unpalatable.

Any others that you can think of?

I think this is a very ignorant attitude. I know how that could be construed as an ironic statement. I am not judging you though, only this particular opinion you hold.