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Ask an ESFJ

Reluctantly

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#52
P.S. You seem very insightful into the ESFJ type (and I'm guessing other types). And you have a way of talking to an ESFJ without making them feel like an idiot and that you hate them. Ever think of becoming a counselor? I know everything says an INTP really shouldn't but you seem to have a special knack at it.
Honestly, I don't generally like people enough to want to wade in their shit for a living. I think my own is enough, at least for me.
 
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#53
if you had an apple with a straw n you poked the apple though wit it and a pebble hadnt dropped through itd stop straw inside the apple ebcause gravity cant apple... why can't gravity apple?
 

Crystabelle

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#54
[LATEX][/LATEX]
I've continued investigating this forum and, dang.... So many of you seem to absolutely detest ESFJs. You really DO feel things deeply. I had no idea we had such power and affect on you guys. ;).

What's with implying ESFJs aren't intelligent? It seems to be a common theme here. How are you rating intelligence? You believe intelligence directly correlates with MBTI?

And why would any of you be surprised an ESFJ would come to this forum? We enjoy learning, some more than others I'm sure. I could study MBTI and psychology every day. In fact, I pretty much do.

Have you guys heard of/taken the Gallup Strengths Finder test? Yes - a couple of my top strengths are relational but another one is Leaner. MBTI isn't the end all, be all.
 
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#55
when u say learning do u mean reading stuff on the internet or do u mean learning?
 
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#57
we could go with something like:

"actively using information to create more information"

it's not really a typical definition but i'm better than the dictionary
 

Crystabelle

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#58
we could go with something like:

"actively using information to create more information"

it's not really a typical definition but i'm better than the dictionary
You know I had to ask bc as an ESFJ I don't know many words. And what is this "dictionary" you speak of? Is it a magical place of care bears & unicorns? If so, tell me how to find it.
 

Crystabelle

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#59
we could go with something like:

"actively using information to create more information"

it's not really a typical definition but i'm better than the dictionary
Ok. I see the confusion. I meant "learn" as in "look at everyone's profile picture & study what feelings are conveyed through emojis."

Thank you for your definition. That clears things up. Let me try this "other" version of learning and get back with you.
 

Crystabelle

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#60
From the way you describe it, I think it might be. The reasons you say he's fascinating just don't really look like they're born out of some kind of mutual respect/understanding but more as like a novelty factor the way someone sees a magician or something and goes, "wow!".
I've continued to come back to this. Still trying to make sense of it. Can you tell me if any of this makes sense to you? If you agree or have anything else to add?:

I do see how my natural way of doting on somebody or complementing/flattering them might come off superficial and somewhat meaningless -- in particular to an INTP (maybe to all T's?). Now, understand, that's not how I feel when I say something like, "He's fascinating!" I really mean it. So, I started asking myself, "What exactly is it that fascinates me?"

Admittedly, this was an effortful task. I just naturally know he's deeply fascinating bc I feel it deeply. But since this can be rather off-putting to the very person I care most about, I've been dwelling on it and I came up with several specific reasons I feel this way but it takes work. I have to stay within my own mind and analyze and question myself and although I've actually enjoyed the exercise because I value growth and development, you guys are right, it's not my natural state.

It reminds me of the time my INTP husband and I got into an argument bc I told him, "Thanks! You're the best!" Apparently, that's NOT something an INTP appreciates. To me, it's simply like saying, "Thanks! I really appreciate you!" When I say that to somebody, do I literally think they are the best human in the entire world of humans? Probably not. When somebody says that to me, I interpret it as a simple general "thanks" and that they see good qualities in me.

Perhaps next time, instead of saying he fascinates me, I'll say:

-- I admire and value his interest in learning, his ability to think about all sides of the equation and come to rational and usually emotionally mature conclusions, his strong work ethic, and his brilliant sense of humor (among many other things).

Is that better?

As I've been pondering all this, it sounds a lot like Heuristics. I wonder if that's part of the equation.

Thoughts?
 

Turnevies

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#61
[LATEX][/LATEX]
I've continued investigating this forum and, dang.... So many of you seem to absolutely detest ESFJs. You really DO feel things deeply. I had no idea we had such power and affect on you guys. ;).
You were the popular kids in high school while we were the nerds.
 

Grayman

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#62
Dont think that because one oddball feels a certain way we all feel that way. We are each our own little oddball.
 

Grayman

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#63
Perhaps next time, instead of saying he fascinates me, I'll say:

-- I admire and value his interest in learning, his ability to think about all sides of the equation and come to rational and usually emotionally mature conclusions, his strong work ethic, and his brilliant sense of humor (among many other things).

Is that better?

As I've been pondering all this, it sounds a lot like Heuristics. I wonder if that's part of the equation.

Thoughts?
I like the second part. The first thing you said would make me feel like a failure. Like i unintentionally gave you a false impression of who i am and my quality as a person and now I have to live up to this new standard that I cannot possibly meet. Or i would be uncertain to the value of your complinent and just ignore it seeing it as you just trying to be nice in an effort to gain my affection or to coddle my brittle ego.

To be honest it isnt as much an issue with people I know well as it is with strangers or new friends.
 

Crystabelle

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#64
UPDATE: I finally got up the nerve to send an email asking my husband to go with me to a particular counselor I found. Lo and behold, he said he is open to it. :eek:. Thanks to you guys, I guess I was able to make a pretty good case for it.
 

Jennywocky

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#65
UPDATE: I finally got up the nerve to send an email asking my husband to go with me to a particular counselor I found. Lo and behold, he said he is open to it. :eek:. Thanks to you guys, I guess I was able to make a pretty good case for it.
:)
 
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#66
perhaps not the best thread but
in my experience the best situation where you can be is having another person who's normal looking, have good conversations with and fine sex. stay away from people you think you can get toooo involved emotionally. It will destroy you.
 
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#67
I have for a long time considered some ESFJ I know as cruel people, but I can't remember right now how I ended having this opinion about them. The most annoying thing is that they consider or want to consider themselves good persons. We all are actually egotistical animals and any action we do, seemingly good or bad, is directed to our own self benefit in one way or another.
My general opinion on ESFJs is that their feelings are addaptive, objective and concrete. If I am rich and happy today, they love me, if I get poor and sad the next day, they are disgusted. Their emotional attitudes can drasticaly change anytime and there seems to be no continuity.
 
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#68
Be rich man. ESFJ are everywhere. :twisteddevil:
My question:
How you [mention]Crystabell[/mention] see yourself? Do you agree with mbti on your type? How serious you treat this descrption? And good luck with therapy! I hope it will work. You sounds like very persistant person to heal your marriage. Rare thing this days.
 

Crystabelle

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#70
I have for a long time considered some ESFJ I know as cruel people, but I can't remember right now how I ended having this opinion about them. The most annoying thing is that they consider or want to consider themselves good persons. We all are actually egotistical animals and any action we do, seemingly good or bad, is directed to our own self benefit in one way or another.

My general opinion on ESFJs is that their feelings are addaptive, objective and concrete. If I am rich and happy today, they love me, if I get poor and sad the next day, they are disgusted. Their emotional attitudes can drasticaly change anytime and there seems to be no continuity.
Hi Graznel. I think I can understand where you are coming from. I am having to do some deep soul searching. You are correct -- I have always considered myself a very loving and good person. I'm still trying to figure it all out but I think we truly WANT to be caretakers and generous and aware of others feelings. I think there's some sort of disconnect between our hearts and our heads and... reality.

Like I said, I don't understand it all but I am not the unselfish, altruistic person I thought I was. I think in large part, it has to do with a lack of self-awareness. I think our intentions are usually good and therefor, we think we're good people. I think our perceptions don't often go beyond the top couple superficial layers. I think if we understood this, we would do almost anything to correct it. We want to make people happy.

IDK. I'm seeing all kinds of contradictory information in my life right now. I still want to believe I'm a kind and generous person. But I also have to acknowledge that I have been incredibly petty and hurtful to some of the people I care about most.
 

Crystabelle

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#71
Be rich man. ESFJ are everywhere. :twisteddevil:
My question:
How you [mention]Crystabell[/mention] see yourself? Do you agree with mbti on your type? How serious you treat this descrption? And good luck with therapy! I hope it will work. You sounds like very persistant person to heal your marriage. Rare thing this days.
Hi washti. I actually just answered some of this in my reply to Graznel before I read your post.

I definitely agree with most of my mbti type. The general description fits me like a glove. I treat it pretty seriously. I hate to put people in a box -- most of all myself -- but I can see these traits within myself and those close to me so it carries a lot of weight.

Thanks for the well wishes. ESFJs are usually quite persistent but not always because we're loyal. We have an extremely difficult time moving on and letting go.

Their emotional attitudes can drasticaly change anytime and there seems to be no continuity.
This may be true but I feel like we're at a disadvantage when compared to INTPs who, in my experience, are almost immovable -- in good &/or bad ways.
 
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#72
I have no idea what information could help you, but lel me try...
1. Try texting him instead of talking important issues face to face. If his respnses get very long it means he is expressing his deepest thoughts. If he sends a bunch of short messages one after the other, it means his emotions are getting out. (Is just an assumption based on myself...)
2. Give him some new occupation, challenge him to do something. (suggest to him an workout program, give him something to fix around the house, let him learn how to cook like a chef, get him involved in a club, write a short story or a blog, play a game, run or meditate every day for 30 - 50 days, 100 push up challenge). It is important to be something that implies learning and improvement. Such a thing will help him regain his sense of independence, will give him something to talk about to you, make him less bored, give him a good mood, etc...
3. Ask him to give examples of whatever he speaks about (examples of your cruelty) and ask him to get as detailed and concrete as you nee. This is meant to make him mesages easier to understand.( I don't like to do this and may get angry when asked about details, but I have to admit that i helps me sometimes. Yet, sometimes, details distract us from the big picture and the real underlying issue.)
4. Make a list with relevant questions about relationships and answer them individually, then compare the answers.
5. In an argument, even though both may have their faults, someone is mostly wrong and someone is mostly right. Never stop discussing the issue until you both agree that one of you was at fault...
6.Tell him we're all cruel.
7. Watch "The School of Life" on youtube. Lots of useful stuff about relationships. Try to apply something from each video at least 2 times

I expect you would get somewhere if you do 4 out of the 7 suggestions. You may modify/personalize the suggestions and set a 12 days time-limit( average: 1 suggestion applied during 3 days).

Srry for my english... not my 1st language
 

Ex-User (8886)

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#73
The actual problem is in your husband - he is not intp (maybe intj, istj, istp) or he is weak, undeveloped, lonely and anxious intp with maybe even deeper psychological problems. There are a lot of that kind of intps.
The typical relationship beetwen INTPs and ESFJs is described here:
http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=Descriptions_of_Dual_Relations_by_Gulenko#LII-ESE
How can you relate your relationship to this?

Second thing:
Actually I'm looking for ESFJ, how to start relationship with them? I mean, they are extraverted, they often don't find me attractive at first meet, I also suck at breaking barrier with new people, so it would be the best an ESFJ to initialize relationship. But how to make good first impress on them?
 

Serac

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#74
Question: what is the greatest compliment you can give to an ESFJ and what is the biggest insult.
 

Grayman

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#75
The actual problem is in your husband - he is not intp (maybe intj, istj, istp) or he is weak, undeveloped, lonely and anxious intp with maybe even deeper psychological problems. There are a lot of that kind of intps.
The typical relationship beetwen INTPs and ESFJs is described here:
http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=Descriptions_of_Dual_Relations_by_Gulenko#LII-ESE
How can you relate your relationship to this?

Second thing:
Actually I'm looking for ESFJ, how to start relationship with them? I mean, they are extraverted, they often don't find me attractive at first meet, I also suck at breaking barrier with new people, so it would be the best an ESFJ to initialize relationship. But how to make good first impress on them?
Romance em. Stuff like leaving a random note on their car while they are working that says 'you have beatiful eyes!' aka you so hot!
 

Crystabelle

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#76
I have no idea what information could help you, but lel me try...
Thank you for your help and suggestions.

The actual problem is in your husband - he is not intp (maybe intj, istj, istp) or he is weak, undeveloped, lonely and anxious intp with maybe even deeper psychological problems. There are a lot of that kind of intps.
The typical relationship beetwen INTPs and ESFJs is described here:
http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=Descriptions_of_Dual_Relations_by_Gulenko#LII-ESE
How can you relate your relationship to this?

Second thing:
Actually I'm looking for ESFJ, how to start relationship with them? I mean, they are extraverted, they often don't find me attractive at first meet, I also suck at breaking barrier with new people, so it would be the best an ESFJ to initialize relationship. But how to make good first impress on them?
He's INTP -- took the test with a MBTI administrator several years ago. I'll check out the link.

Why are you looking for an ESFJ?

Question: what is the greatest compliment you can give to an ESFJ and what is the biggest insult.
Thinking on this.

Greatest Compliment: Probably something along the lines of the things you hear/read in most any sappy love story. Think Wesley of The Princess Bride.

Biggest Insult: That my feelings aren't valid. Maybe telling me my feelings and intentions are not what I say they are, too. But, honestly, we're pretty sensitive so most any insult is going to hurt us.
 

Ex-User (8886)

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#78
Why are you looking for an ESFJ?
First, because socionics says it's best romantic relationship.
Second, because an ESFJ can care about me in a way that I want - organize my life, help with daily stuff, motivate me and give me energy - because I live on very low energy level (if I don't take drugs like phenibut or modafinil), help me dealing with people (sometimes I have problem when people mock me and I know ESFJs are the best at defending people they care), they smile a lot, hug - that's what I unconsciously need.
Also they talk a lot, and I don't so they are perfect partner. Generally speaking they can take care of all stuff I don't like or I don't care, so I can focus at things I am the best in (physics, programming). Furthermore I think I can help an ESFJ a lot - telling her what is important and what isn't (ESFJs can be stressed by little unmeaning things [when I met one ESFJ on english lesson, she needed a sheet and I tore up one from my book and gave her - she was first suprised and then laughed], so I can keep ESFJ calm, unstressed. Also I can help with all hard stuff - I can solve every problem in a matter of seconds, so ESFJ with me will not have any :D
 

Crystabelle

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#79
First, because socionics says it's best romantic relationship.
Second, because an ESFJ can care about me in a way that I want - organize my life, help with daily stuff, motivate me and give me energy - because I live on very low energy level (if I don't take drugs like phenibut or modafinil), help me dealing with people (sometimes I have problem when people mock me and I know ESFJs are the best at defending people they care), they smile a lot, hug - that's what I unconsciously need.
Also they talk a lot, and I don't so they are perfect partner. Generally speaking they can take care of all stuff I don't like or I don't care, so I can focus at things I am the best in (physics, programming). Furthermore I think I can help an ESFJ a lot - telling her what is important and what isn't (ESFJs can be stressed by little unmeaning things [when I met one ESFJ on english lesson, she needed a sheet and I tore up one from my book and gave her - she was first suprised and then laughed], so I can keep ESFJ calm, unstressed. Also I can help with all hard stuff - I can solve every problem in a matter of seconds, so ESFJ with me will not have any :D
I wish it was that simple. I'm concerned that you're setting yourself & somebody else up for a world of pain. But it's your decision to make and perhaps going into it with eyes wide open & as much awareness as you have will make the difference.

This isn't meant as in insult but I would beg any of my ESFJ girlfriends to run away from any potential INTP beaus as fast as their legs could carry them. IMHO, the risk & likelihood for severe dysfunction and pain easily outweighs the potential wonderful partnership that you describe and that I believe exists only in our dreams.

IDK, perhaps I'm just jaded by my own experience. Maybe you're the most willing and open minded INTP and maybe you'll find the most willing and open minded ESFJ. I guess it could happen.
 

onesteptwostep

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#80
What do you generally do when you like someone? Are you explicit? Do you try and give social cues? Try to find time alone with the person? I don't think romance is specified to type- but what do you think, and how do you act?

I have an ISFx friend who seems to be completely find around me, and it's giving me this slightly haunting idea that she might be too much into me. I don't want to be explicit in asking her because I feel like it would bring out another side of me and potentially hurt the friendship a bit. Basically, if I ask her if she's into me, that moment of vulnerability is.. not to my advantage.
 

Ex-User (8886)

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#81
I wish it was that simple. I'm concerned that you're setting yourself & somebody else up for a world of pain. But it's your decision to make and perhaps going into it with eyes wide open & as much awareness as you have will make the difference.

This isn't meant as in insult but I would beg any of my ESFJ girlfriends to run away from any potential INTP beaus as fast as their legs could carry them. IMHO, the risk & likelihood for severe dysfunction and pain easily outweighs the potential wonderful partnership that you describe and that I believe exists only in our dreams.

IDK, perhaps I'm just jaded by my own experience. Maybe you're the most willing and open minded INTP and maybe you'll find the most willing and open minded ESFJ. I guess it could happen.
Forgive me, but I still don't think your husband's INTP :c
MBTI is widely criticized because of mistyping by tests - they're not focused on actual functions, instead are on letters. And last letter can be tough, I personally thought for some time I was INTJ :D
Or you can be ESFP. Usually hurt or rejected ESFJs let someone go, they don't push on other person as much as ESFPs, and it's really strange that you focus on relationship with him instead of focusing on him. Yeah, for me it's Fi, which doesn't care about how other people feel, but what is right or wrong - being separated is wrong, so it want to fix it no matter what other side thinks.
excuse me, but the theory of socionics works really good and I would rather believe you or someone is mistyped (because it occurs very often) than began to think theory doesn't work.
if my thesis is right, your relationship should look like:
http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=Conflict
The most difficult type of relations. Partners try to impose their own views on each other and don't want to accept value of one another. This leads to continuous suppression of one another. Partners notice the slightest flaws in each other and often exaggerate them. They often argue, disagree, don't listen to one another, don't accept each other's arguments. Even jokes and compliments are perceived incorrectly. All of this does not contribute to development of sensitivity, mutual attention to the needs and interests of another. Over time, the tension that originates in exacerbating conflicts and constant desire to move away, causes resentment. Such relationships are difficult in personal life and work. At the beginning, while dating and still maintaining some psychological distance, conflict partners are often sympathetic to each other, admire each other's strengths, talk about their interests, exchange their opinions. When they transition to more frequent and close contact, mutual irritation and misunderstandings arise. It is advisable to adhere to traditions and discuss all changes beforehand. Only careful attitude to each other can save this relationship.
 

Crystabelle

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#82
Forgive me, but I still don't think your husband's INTP :c
MBTI is widely criticized because of mistyping by tests - they're not focused on actual functions, instead are on letters. And last letter can be tough, I personally thought for some time I was INTJ :D
Or you can be ESFP. Usually hurt or rejected ESFJs let someone go, they don't push on other person as much as ESFPs, and it's really strange that you focus on relationship with him instead of focusing on him. Yeah, for me it's Fi, which doesn't care about how other people feel, but what is right or wrong - being separated is wrong, so it want to fix it no matter what other side thinks.
excuse me, but the theory of socionics works really good and I would rather believe you or someone is mistyped (because it occurs very often) than began to think theory doesn't work.
if my thesis is right, your relationship should look like:
http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=Conflict
The most difficult type of relations. Partners try to impose their own views on each other and don't want to accept value of one another. This leads to continuous suppression of one another. Partners notice the slightest flaws in each other and often exaggerate them. They often argue, disagree, don't listen to one another, don't accept each other's arguments. Even jokes and compliments are perceived incorrectly. All of this does not contribute to development of sensitivity, mutual attention to the needs and interests of another. Over time, the tension that originates in exacerbating conflicts and constant desire to move away, causes resentment. Such relationships are difficult in personal life and work. At the beginning, while dating and still maintaining some psychological distance, conflict partners are often sympathetic to each other, admire each other's strengths, talk about their interests, exchange their opinions. When they transition to more frequent and close contact, mutual irritation and misunderstandings arise. It is advisable to adhere to traditions and discuss all changes beforehand. Only careful attitude to each other can save this relationship.

Real Texts from Yesterday:

Me @ 8:19AM: Did the AC get fixed?
Me @ 4:04PM: ?
Him @ 4:05PM: Yes
Radio silence

1) No initial response (Hello? Common courtesy? I know you're on your phone all day.)

2) One word response after I waited most of the day & then had to prompt him a second time. (Again... Hello? Conversation much? Chopped liver here. You're dead to me.) (Ok... Hyperbole. But maybe only a little.)

There's a thing called "bid for attention." It's where I might say "oh! Did you see that bird?" I'm not really that excited about the bird. I'm excited about sharing a moment with you. If you ignore my bid or are dismissive, it feels like you don't care about me as a person.

Ok, having said all that, I now realize there is 0 ill intent when my husband does this. I don't necessarily think he has GOOD intent -- it seems like the absence of intent all together. I really don't like being ignored. Even though I know my husband is a good man and provides for me and would always be there if I desperately needed him, I still have this initial reaction of taking it personally and feeling rejected. I don't know if I'll ever change enough to not feel that way or not want more of his attention.

Are you willing to go through conflicts like this and put the effort into helping your ESFJ understand you? It could take years and a massive amount of communication. After the new wears off and it's not fun to try anymore? I'm not trying to convince you to not. In fact, the F & romantic in me is secretly rooting for you. But heartache has taught me to start using more T.

I'm going to look into the links you've sent -- thank you. I'm open to MBTI not being the end all, be all, and perhaps somewhat inaccurate in areas. If I don't seem like the typical ESFJ, I think it's only because I've hit a couple rock bottoms that weren't pretty and forced me to start opening my eyes. I try very hard to find understanding. And, still, I often revert back to my original ESFJ self -- especially when interacting with my husband. We'll see if counseling helps.
 

Jennywocky

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#83
Real Texts from Yesterday:

Me @ 8:19AM: Did the AC get fixed?
Me @ 4:04PM: ?
Him @ 4:05PM: Yes
Radio silence

1) No initial response (Hello? Common courtesy? I know you're on your phone all day.)

2) One word response after I waited most of the day & then had to prompt him a second time. (Again... Hello? Conversation much? Chopped liver here. You're dead to me.) (Ok... Hyperbole. But maybe only a little.)

There's a thing called "bid for attention." It's where I might say "oh! Did you see that bird?" I'm not really that excited about the bird. I'm excited about sharing a moment with you. If you ignore my bid or are dismissive, it feels like you don't care about me as a person.

Ok, having said all that, I now realize there is 0 ill intent when my husband does this. I don't necessarily think he has GOOD intent -- it seems like the absence of intent all together. I really don't like being ignored. Even though I know my husband is a good man and provides for me and would always be there if I desperately needed him, I still have this initial reaction of taking it personally and feeling rejected. I don't know if I'll ever change enough to not feel that way or not want more of his attention.

Are you willing to go through conflicts like this and put the effort into helping your ESFJ understand you? It could take years and a massive amount of communication. After the new wears off and it's not fun to try anymore? I'm not trying to convince you to not. In fact, the F & romantic in me is secretly rooting for you. But heartache has taught me to start using more T.

I'm going to look into the links you've sent -- thank you. I'm open to MBTI not being the end all, be all, and perhaps somewhat inaccurate in areas. If I don't seem like the typical ESFJ, I think it's only because I've hit a couple rock bottoms that weren't pretty and forced me to start opening my eyes. I try very hard to find understanding. And, still, I often revert back to my original ESFJ self -- especially when interacting with my husband. We'll see if counseling helps.
I gotta say, you have been together how long now?

I just have trouble grasping too why he can't spare another ten words, as just part of interacting within his marriage partner. And I come it at more from his angle in terms of personality. I just can't see the point in being married to someone I don't want to talk to in at least a little more detail.

I find I am that consistently terse only if I am working (and totally in work mode, but maybe not even then -- I'm an informative, so I like to give a little extra information to enlighten the other person. (Like, in this case, "Yes, it came back on around <time> and still seems to be working. The fixit guy was a trip and a half." Or something.)

Or I am that terse consistently if I am pissed at the other person and/or I think any extra information I provide will just result in a conflict or some other bit of ugliness. So I just give the barest possible response and hope they do not contact me again. It's an indirect way of shutting down potentially annoying/frustrating interactions.

I dunno. I'm just me, not me; and I don't really deal with folks who are very extremely cut off from any casual/interpersonal side of themselves for self-protection or resource management.

But yeah fair is fair; he married an ESFJ, meeting in the middle is fair. So I just don't know what's going on here. Like, either resentment about the relationship? Or he has a negative attitude towards you (deserved / not deserved, doesn't matter)? Or is just hoping if he shuts you out, you'll go away? If he's on his phone all day, the habitual stalling for eight hours to only provide a one word response is something I do only for a less-than-positive reason. I was dealing with an ISFJ, so I just know the games we played in our own relationship; but ISFJ tends to internalize more than an ESFJ and not constantly be reaching out, so the pattern's a little different. Still, when our relationship was bad, these are things I did to keep my boundaries intact.

But then you said also that he agreed to go to counseling. Anyway, that's the best place to bring this stuff up, where he is in the room and can actually answer the questions about the relationship, with someone with experience in helping partners mediate their relationship. I'm just conjecturing possible avenues here.
 

Crystabelle

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#84
I gotta say, you have been together how long now?

I find I am that consistently terse only if I am working (and totally in work mode, but maybe not even then -- I'm an informative, so I like to give a little extra information to enlighten the other person. (Like, in this case, "Yes, it came back on around <time> and still seems to be working. The fixit guy was a trip and a half." Or something.)

Or I am that terse consistently if I am pissed at the other person and/or I think any extra information I provide will just result in a conflict or some other bit of ugliness. So I just give the barest possible response and hope they do not contact me again. It's an indirect way of shutting down potentially annoying/frustrating interactions.
At this point, since we haven't had any recent negative interactions, I think if I asked him he'd say he was just really busy. (We rarely interact at all but happened to talk on the phone for about 15 minutes two days ago where he told me a lot that has been going on in his life). The guy easily works 70 hrs/week. And he's been making house repairs. I texted him last Sunday and waiting 1.5 days before trying to reach him again. He said, "Sorry. I've been working on building the deck all day." But then a couple days later, he called & told me all about it (call I mentioned above.)

The best I can explain it (without writing a novel) is we're extra dysfunctional now. Way more than our normal dysfunction. And he's insanely busy. Several people have asked me if he's having an affair. My response: Yes -- with his work. His career is the other woman.

Again, I really don't think he has ill intent. It's like he just doesn't get it. Or he doesn't have enough hope or positive feeling related to us in order to try to get it. Or even to just do it without getting it.

Appreciate your thoughts. I'm very curious where counseling will take us. I'm not certain we can find happiness but I still want to believe where 2 people try, there is a way. I guess the good news is neither of us is interested in pursuing other romantic relationships and we've already been separated for 2 years. We're obviously not in a rush to get divorced so I guess we have plenty of time to try to figure this whole thing out. I really hope this INFJ counselor can understand us both and be a helpful mediator.

In my email asking him if he'd come to counseling, one of my reasons was so that he could share information that I could utilize in my own quest for self improvement. I can't shake the feeling that this could be the sole reason he's willing to go. I'm wondering... It might not have anything to do with hope for us or to work on our marriage. IDK. Just trying to think like an INTP. Guess we'll find out. Until then, it's all a guessing game.
 

Jennywocky

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#85
At this point, since we haven't had any recent negative interactions, I think if I asked him he'd say he was just really busy. (We rarely interact at all but happened to talk on the phone for about 15 minutes two days ago where he told me a lot that has been going on in his life). The guy easily works 70 hrs/week. And he's been making house repairs. I texted him last Sunday and waiting 1.5 days before trying to reach him again. He said, "Sorry. I've been working on building the deck all day." But then a couple days later, he called & told me all about it (call I mentioned above.)
Sorry, I just have been extremely busy with a lot of different things, so I don't read all the posts in all the different threads and there is info I miss.

When you say he works 70/hours a week, that certainly opens up the range of possibility. Not only is that an insane amount of time spent working, but that's a huge energy drain that can leave one unable to respond to stuff outside of work... basically 30 hours a week that could have been used for other things, but it's channeled into work as you continue to note. He just doesn't have energy left for other things.

Again, I really don't think he has ill intent. It's like he just doesn't get it. Or he doesn't have enough hope or positive feeling related to us in order to try to get it. Or even to just do it without getting it.
Well, not getting it + insanely tired. I am now in my late 40's and find I used to be able to burn the candle at both ends when I was in my 20's-30's but simply don't have the energy anymore to do that. it has demanded me learning to pace myself better and conserve energy for the things I am more focused on and/or prioritize as more important. I can't imagine working 70/hours a week + doing other stuff on top of that; it's actually much more understandable if he isn't engaging you much outside of all that.

Is it possible for him to redo his schedule, for his sanity and yours, and the sake of the marriage?

Appreciate your thoughts. I'm very curious where counseling will take us. I'm not certain we can find happiness but I still want to believe where 2 people try, there is a way. I guess the good news is neither of us is interested in pursuing other romantic relationships and we've already been separated for 2 years. We're obviously not in a rush to get divorced so I guess we have plenty of time to try to figure this whole thing out. I really hope this INFJ counselor can understand us both and be a helpful mediator.

In my email asking him if he'd come to counseling, one of my reasons was so that he could share information that I could utilize in my own quest for self improvement. I can't shake the feeling that this could be the sole reason he's willing to go. I'm wondering... It might not have anything to do with hope for us or to work on our marriage. IDK. Just trying to think like an INTP. Guess we'll find out. Until then, it's all a guessing game.
Hopefully the INFJ can manage. It's a nice blend of Fe secondary (for you) and Ti tertiary (for him -- sometimes INFJs when they go into Ti-analysis mode can scan as INTPs)... so there is potential to be a bridge there.

I'm still thinking things won't change much, though, unless he can get back to a sane schedule and actually have energy and time to maintain a relationship with you.
 

Crystabelle

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#86
What do you generally do when you like someone? Are you explicit? Do you try and give social cues? Try to find time alone with the person? I don't think romance is specified to type- but what do you think, and how do you act?

I have an ISFx friend who seems to be completely find around me, and it's giving me this slightly haunting idea that she might be too much into me. I don't want to be explicit in asking her because I feel like it would bring out another side of me and potentially hurt the friendship a bit. Basically, if I ask her if she's into me, that moment of vulnerability is.. not to my advantage.
When I like someone I try to find reasons to spend time with them. I try to find things we have in common. I learn about their interests and want to share mine with them -- active activities such as hiking, sports, visiting new places especially. I'll text them throughout the day just to see what they're up to. Mostly, it all comes back to communicating and interacting with them -- the more the better. If I don't like you or I'm simply not interested in furthering our relationship, I will answer your questions with very short closed responses. If I keep the conversation going by asking questions in return, that's a good sign.

If you're an INTP and you get the feeling an F type might be into you, I'd think you're likely right. Do you WANT her to be into you? Also, it's ok to be a little vulnerable. What's the worst that could happen? We're all human.
 

Ex-User (8886)

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#87
At this point, since we haven't had any recent negative interactions, I think if I asked him he'd say he was just really busy. (We rarely interact at all but happened to talk on the phone for about 15 minutes two days ago where he told me a lot that has been going on in his life). The guy easily works 70 hrs/week. And he's been making house repairs. I texted him last Sunday and waiting 1.5 days before trying to reach him again. He said, "Sorry. I've been working on building the deck all day." But then a couple days later, he called & told me all about it (call I mentioned above.)

The best I can explain it (without writing a novel) is we're extra dysfunctional now. Way more than our normal dysfunction. And he's insanely busy. Several people have asked me if he's having an affair. My response: Yes -- with his work. His career is the other woman.

Again, I really don't think he has ill intent. It's like he just doesn't get it. Or he doesn't have enough hope or positive feeling related to us in order to try to get it. Or even to just do it without getting it.

Appreciate your thoughts. I'm very curious where counseling will take us. I'm not certain we can find happiness but I still want to believe where 2 people try, there is a way. I guess the good news is neither of us is interested in pursuing other romantic relationships and we've already been separated for 2 years. We're obviously not in a rush to get divorced so I guess we have plenty of time to try to figure this whole thing out. I really hope this INFJ counselor can understand us both and be a helpful mediator.

In my email asking him if he'd come to counseling, one of my reasons was so that he could share information that I could utilize in my own quest for self improvement. I can't shake the feeling that this could be the sole reason he's willing to go. I'm wondering... It might not have anything to do with hope for us or to work on our marriage. IDK. Just trying to think like an INTP. Guess we'll find out. Until then, it's all a guessing game.
Good luck, keep inform us how it's going
 

QuickTwist

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#88
Forgive me, but I still don't think your husband's INTP :c
MBTI is widely criticized because of mistyping by tests - they're not focused on actual functions, instead are on letters. And last letter can be tough, I personally thought for some time I was INTJ :D
Or you can be ESFP. Usually hurt or rejected ESFJs let someone go, they don't push on other person as much as ESFPs, and it's really strange that you focus on relationship with him instead of focusing on him. Yeah, for me it's Fi, which doesn't care about how other people feel, but what is right or wrong - being separated is wrong, so it want to fix it no matter what other side thinks.
excuse me, but the theory of socionics works really good and I would rather believe you or someone is mistyped (because it occurs very often) than began to think theory doesn't work.
if my thesis is right, your relationship should look like:
http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=Conflict
The most difficult type of relations. Partners try to impose their own views on each other and don't want to accept value of one another. This leads to continuous suppression of one another. Partners notice the slightest flaws in each other and often exaggerate them. They often argue, disagree, don't listen to one another, don't accept each other's arguments. Even jokes and compliments are perceived incorrectly. All of this does not contribute to development of sensitivity, mutual attention to the needs and interests of another. Over time, the tension that originates in exacerbating conflicts and constant desire to move away, causes resentment. Such relationships are difficult in personal life and work. At the beginning, while dating and still maintaining some psychological distance, conflict partners are often sympathetic to each other, admire each other's strengths, talk about their interests, exchange their opinions. When they transition to more frequent and close contact, mutual irritation and misunderstandings arise. It is advisable to adhere to traditions and discuss all changes beforehand. Only careful attitude to each other can save this relationship.
I don't like it when other people think they know my life and the circumstances surrounding it better than I. This is basically what you are doing with the OP.

Why do you think you know OP's husband better than her? It makes no sense.
 

Ex-User (8886)

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#89
I don't like it when other people think they know my life and the circumstances surrounding it better than I. This is basically what you are doing with the OP.

Why do you think you know OP's husband better than her? It makes no sense.
Because I trust theory more than people. People can be wrong, they can lie. And she dont have problem with me, you have some problems, so think about yourself.
 

QuickTwist

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#90
Because I trust theory more than people. People can be wrong, they can lie. And she dont have problem with me, you have some problems, so think about yourself.
Believe it or not, you are a person as well. Every person has personal biases.. That includes the theories they believe to be true. The OP doesn't have a problem with you because they don't want to cause conflict. After all they are an ESFJ on and INTP forum.

I mean, who are you to tell her she has typed herself and her husband incorrectly?
 

Ex-User (8886)

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#91
Believe it or not, you are a person as well. Every person has personal biases.. That includes the theories they believe to be true. The OP doesn't have a problem with you because they don't want to cause conflict. After all they are an ESFJ on and INTP forum.

I mean, who are you to tell her she has typed herself and her husband incorrectly?
I really didn't understand you till I saw your profile. An ISFP, this explain everything. No, she doesn't think like your Fi, if she is ESFJ. She is not one scary and vulnerable people like you are, because ISFPs and ESFPs can't stand criticism, they and you always try to hide it, but once again - you may not understand it - theory works, people lie.
Oh and here you are - hypocrisy - you tell me I don't know this person, and you tell me what this person think. And watch out, you are ISFP on INTP forum.
 

QuickTwist

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#92
I really didn't understand you till I saw your profile. An ISFP, this explain everything. No, she doesn't think like your Fi, if she is ESFJ. She is not one scary and vulnerable people like you are, because ISFPs and ESFPs can't stand criticism, they and you always try to hide it, but once again - you may not understand it - theory works, people lie.
Oh and here you are - hypocrisy - you tell me I don't know this person, and you tell me what this person think. And watch out, you are ISFP on INTP forum.
I am starting to think you are a troll. Either that or just immature. I will refrain from saying what type I think you are.
 

onesteptwostep

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#93
When I like someone I try to find reasons to spend time with them. I try to find things we have in common. I learn about their interests and want to share mine with them -- active activities such as hiking, sports, visiting new places especially. I'll text them throughout the day just to see what they're up to. Mostly, it all comes back to communicating and interacting with them -- the more the better. If I don't like you or I'm simply not interested in furthering our relationship, I will answer your questions with very short closed responses. If I keep the conversation going by asking questions in return, that's a good sign.
All that emotional engagement..

If you're an INTP and you get the feeling an F type might be into you, I'd think you're likely right. Do you WANT her to be into you? Also, it's ok to be a little vulnerable. What's the worst that could happen? We're all human.
Though I treasure her as a friend, she's too emotionally volatile to have as a romantic partner, I feel. All that emotional engagement would probably wear me out, too, and the lack of intellectual curiosity would be a big turn off in the long run if we were to get together.

Another problem is that she has somewhat of a.. depression mood swing, so sometimes I need to be there for her, or at least I feel like I should, because that's what friends are for- but getting not too close is somewhat a struggle- for me. Either way she doesn't satisfy my intellectual curiosity, which I feel should be a component of the relationship. :x
 

Crystabelle

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#94
UPDATE: (For anyone interested)

I've seen this new counselor twice over the past few weeks. At first, I really didn't think much of him. He kept yawning and rubbing his eyes. It was 10AM on a Monday. I thought either he had a rough night, difficult previous client, or I was really taxing his brain. lol. (Maybe all of the above.) It was such an odd experience. I went back this Morning at 8AM (his first appointment). He still yawned and rubbed his eyes but not as much. I'm not really feeling a personal connection with this guy but I like him well enough. That actually makes me wonder if my husband might like him since we often seem to have total opposite opinions.

Dr. Hays said all the stuff I already know: Couples need to spend time together. We're not really behaving as though we're married. We need to be living together. Yada yada yada. I kept telling him I agree with all of that but my husband and I aren't anywhere near the point of discussing living together yet. We have too much to figure out first. I'm not even sure if my husband wants more of a relationship with me or if this is it. I understand, I've had 2 hours to try to catch this guy up on 13+ years of weird relationship history. Good news is that he does seem to have a good grasp of the personality types (INTPs included). However, he said something that surprised me a little. He said INTPs were unique in the sense that they could really be in a relationship with any other type. This took me by surprise. I know he studied under some personality type authority in the marriage counseling world (at least according to Dr. Hays) but I didn't catch the name. (I think the article I mention below was written by this mentor.)

My husband is still out of the country. I texted him today to ask if he could attend a meeting with this counselor next week. He said, "I'm going to say probably but a small majority probability (like 55%)." I'm cracking up just re-reading his text. Not b/c he said anything wrong but just b/c this is SO not the way I would ever think to respond somebody. I actually find it endearing at this point but I used to just shake my head in confusion. I'm guessing he is simply trying to be accurate and keep expectations at the appropriate level.

Anyway... That's about all this is to say for now.

BTW - This counselor sent me articles to read (1 ESFJ & 1 INTP). The ESFJ one actually had some new info I hadn't remembered reading before. The INTP one seems pretty spot on with what I've researched already. It's a 15 page document so I'm not sure what the best way to share it would be but if any of you are interested in reading it, let me know.

The articles headings are:
GENERAL CHARACTERISTICS
CENTRAL PREMISE
GENDER DIFFERENCES
SPECIAL TALENTS
SPECIAL WEAKNESSES
CHILDHOOD AND ADOLESCENCE
LEARNING STYLE
EDUCATION AND CAREER INCLINATIONS
RELATIONSHIPS/FRIENDSHIP PATTERNS
MARRIAGE/PARTNER RELATIONSHIPS
PARENTING TENDENCIES
 

Rixus

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#97
I'll take the cookies. No, wait, I won't take the cookies. I'm trying to an inch on the waste.
Stop tempting me with cookies!
 

Ex-User (8886)

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#98
They can be very attracted to partners whom they perceive to be stable, predictable, and even a bit traditional.
- ESFJ
the partner must be someone who can find the INTP intriguing
- opposites are always intriguing
On the other hand, the INTP is quite capable of functioning without a long term relationship. There are many who move through life with a series of short term involvements without getting too serious about any one of them.
-that's true, INTPs are not interested in people, I can't find person in my life that I care about (maybe it could be different if I had a children)
 

Crystabelle

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#99
-that's true, INTPs are not interested in people, I can't find person in my life that I care about (maybe it could be different if I had a children)
How do you define "care about"?

I think this is what confounds me but I can kinda sense with my husband. And I always wanted him to care more about a lot of things... Like I do. I always felt some sort of disconnect between us and sense it between him and our son. But maybe I'm just overly sensitive.

Could some of you elaborate on this? I don't understand how humans can not care about other humans. I'm not trying to make you feel bad or wrong I just really don't understand. Is it because people annoy you? Did you start off liking people? Do you care more for relatives (parents, siblings) inherently or because you know you should? Do you value human life? Do you ever feel "connected" with another human? -- Under what circumstances?

My husband has said, "I don't like people" but he's often very thoughtful of others and kind to people.
 

Crystabelle

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- ESFJ

- opposites are always intriguing

-that's true, INTPs are not interested in people, I can't find person in my life that I care about (maybe it could be different if I had a children)
And, does this not seem a little uncool to y'all?

1) INTPs attracted to ESFJish type

2) If they find an ESFJish who finds them intriguing too then the relationship's on

3) INTP doesn't actually like the ESFJ (& will probably leave????)

:confused:
 
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