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Article on Science and God

Black Rose

An unbreakable bond
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scorpiomover

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My INTP-mind's answer:

I respect Stephen Hawking highly as a scientist. But, I am confident that, as a scientist, he would find it ridiculous if a theologian who hadn't studied quantum physics full-time for several years, and who didn't know the subject in any depth, of the works of the major quantum physicists in the various fields, claimed it was a fairy story, to keep atheists from being afraid of the big 'out there'. I am equally confident that if he has actually thought about the matter rationally, then he has applied the same logic to religion. I have read some of those sources, and they explained the origins of the universe, in ways that are uncannily close to the views of quantum physics, but predate it by centuries. So I seriously doubt that he even knows the various in-depth viewpoints of even the major religions, like Xianity, Judaism, and Islam, let alone in any great depth. His life story doesn't leave any room for him having studied theology full-time for several years either. So, I am forced to conclude that he simply hasn't considered both sides equally. That then raises the question of how he could be so rational about physics, and yet so irrational about religion. However, psychology comes to answer this question.

Albert Bandura did much research into the effects of self-efficacy and the lack of it. What he found, was that when you look at the behaviour of people who are completing a task, and have low self-efficacy in that task, namely, that one doesn't believe that one is likely to succeed in that task, one is seriously under-motivated, that is, one puts in a far lower effort, and when confronted with the smallest of difficulties, one is quick to assume that the task is impossible, and what is even more astounding, one actually doesn't even think about the subject matter rationally, that is, one doesn't even bother to make the reasonable mental effort of working out what to do, making the task well-nigh impossible, because one is approaching it in a ridiculous way.

There are many examples of this sort of behaviour, such as that seen in people who are suffering from clinical depression, and anyone who believes they lack the ability to achieve something that others believe is possible, and even where people believe that a task is impossible or unrealistic, and others believe that the task is realistically achievable.

The reason for this is quite simple: our brains cannot work out what to do in reality, because reality is outside of us. So, in order to work things out, our brains have to work things out in an inner simulation, which it does subconsciously. However, where do we get the info for that simulation? From our conscious selves. Our conscious selves "program" the rules of our subconscious simulations of reality, and then our subconscious can work out the details of how it works. Once our subconscious reaches a particular conclusion, that too goes into the rules of the simulation. However, when our brain absorbs new information, to update the simulation, that information can only be fitted into the simulation, and so must be forced to fit the rules of the simulation.

As a result, the decisions that our conscious selves transmit to our subconscious, the defines the rules that program our simulations, act as a filter, that either re-interprets all new data to fit the previous rules, or they are rejected, sometimes even without us being aware of it. The result is what is known as cognitive dissonance, when people reject clear evidence, if it contradicts the previous information their conscious fed into their subconscious minds.

Sometimes, the mind is forced to accept that the evidence shows their previous rules are wrong. However, it has the same effect as proving that an extremely complicated aircraft simulation game is fundamentally wrong. Where do you start? Which rules exactly are wrong? The simulation is so integrated, that taking it apart and figuring out exactly which rules are wrong, could take years, and in the meantime, the simulation is unavailable. There is an exact parallel to when this happens to people, that people develop an almost complete inability to make any decisions, and consequently show an inability to do anything, even the smallest of tasks, and stay this way for years, until they develop a whole new way of looking at life, and mysteriously 'come out it', but without anyone knowing exactly how or why, not even psychologists. We call this a nervous breakdown.

The consequences of re-thinking the simulation, cause such a major problem, that they reduce the person to the situation of a helpless child, for years. In a less-structured and integrated society, this would have almost certainly led to the person's death, because they lacked the ability to look after themselves.

But the survival instinct is there to protect us. So the brain MUST avoid such a seriously life-threatening situation as a mental breakdown, if it can. So, the brain will do whatever it has to, to protect itself from having to make such a re-evaluation. It MUST force the user to force all new data into the existing sim, or reject it, or risk serious chance of death. So even if the brain KNOWS that the evidence is incontrovertible, it must support the sim. The alternative is just too dangerous in practice.

In this case, the task Stephen Hawking set himself, was to evaluate whether or not theism was compatible with modern quantum physics. He is an atheist. As long as he maintained that religious people were just as capable of being intelligent and rational human beings as himself, then he would have been up to the task. But the minute that he chose to describe religious people as believing in nonsense, he was subconsciously assuming the position that no sentient being would ever be capable of consistent rational thought, and that would have automatically resulted in the behaviour that Bandura had already proved happened in such circumstances.

There is a serious danger when you assume things too hard and fast, especially when it's about things that you don't know about, and especially when it makes definitive claims about other people's abilities. Your subconscious can end up twisting the truth into a pretzel, just to keep you from having a breakdown, and the worst of it, is that because it's your subconscious doing it, and not your conscious, you don't even know.
 

Jesse

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scorpiomover in short what you described is confirmation bias.

Also going by your logic religion is wrong because you must know everything and must want to know everything. Hence you can not be a religious of one particular faith if you haven't studied and become an expert in every religion and in some ways believe them all.

Dam my life is fucked if I actually post this as it's just not worth arguing this point at all.
 

scorpiomover

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scorpiomover in short what you described is confirmation bias.
Yes. But I felt like I had to explain it in detail. Just saying that Stephen Hawking had confirmation bias would have seemed too dismissive to me.

Also going by your logic religion is wrong because you must know everything and must want to know everything. Hence you can not be a religious of one particular faith if you haven't studied and become an expert in every religion and in some ways believe them all.
If you want to claim that all other religions are definitely wrong and worthless, then yes, you would have to be an expert in them all.

If you just want to claim that your religion is right, then you have to be an expert in yours. If that means that you reject other religions, because you are sure that yours is right, because you are an expert in it, then it's not that much different than choosing one way to go from London to Manchester because you know it's very quick. It still makes sense to choose your path. It just doesn't make sense to say that all other paths are definitely not worth pursuing for anyone.

If you just want to claim that you get a lot from your religion, and it works for you, then you don't have to be an expert in any religion. You just have to be an expert in you.

If you can guess, I'm largely a pluralist. I believe that there are horses for courses.
 

Jah

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I am reminded of something Robert Heinlein said;

"Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there. Theologians can persuade themselves of anything."
 

Tacoma200

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Atheists don't have strong incentives to reject scientific findings because they conflict with their previously held beliefs. So as science rolls along they generally roll right along with it.

And the religious... well, less so. Obviously. The attachment has develloped over decades and centuries of scientists having to fight religious dogma every time they come up with a result some religious faction thinks conflicts with their articles of faith. Evolution being the primary driver of that conflict.
I couldn't agree more.
 

ilike2poison

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I think the first step to proving or disproving God would be to come up with an adequate description of who or what God is. Is "He" a benevolent spirit, who mirrors the God depicted in religion, or He something else? Was He the first quantum fluctuation within a eternal void of nothing? Was He the first thing to exist in time? Does He transcend time? We have to know what we're looking for before we start looking.
 

crippli

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That then raises the question of how he could be so rational about physics, and yet so irrational about religion.
Okay, this was slightly confusing. Isn't physics about rationality(trying to explain as it is) while religion is about irrationality(trying to explain things as they are not). What did I miss here?

Also
But, I am confident that, as a scientist, he would find it ridiculous if a theologian who hadn't studied quantum physics full-time for several years, and who didn't know the subject in any depth, of the works of the major quantum physicists in the various fields, claimed it was a fairy story, to keep atheists from being afraid of the big 'out there'.
If you are to have much progress in science you need to filter the material. There is just not enough time to go around investigating the truth about all sorts of ideas. By your arguments you can not just pick out the main religions, Perry Pratchett disk world needs to be throughly looked into as well, what about the Flying Spaghetti Monster? As a scientist you can not spend time on all of that, if you are to publish something people will read at some point. It makes sense to pick out a few like Hawkins does, that is main stream. The essence about all of this is the same, so looking into one should be enough to make a judgment call about the ideas accuracy and if further investigation is necessary.
 

scorpiomover

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Okay, this was slightly confusing. Isn't physics about rationality(trying to explain as it is) while religion is about irrationality(trying to explain things as they are not). What did I miss here?
If he is being irrational about religion, then by your definition, he is trying to explain religions as they are not, i.e., what he is saying about religions is just plain wrong.

If you are to have much progress in science you need to filter the material. There is just not enough time to go around investigating the truth about all sorts of ideas. By your arguments you can not just pick out the main religions, Perry Pratchett disk world needs to be throughly looked into as well, what about the Flying Spaghetti Monster? As a scientist you can not spend time on all of that, if you are to publish something people will read at some point. It makes sense to pick out a few like Hawkins does, that is main stream. The essence about all of this is the same, so looking into one should be enough to make a judgment call about the ideas accuracy and if further investigation is necessary.
Then I would expect him to ONLY talk about the things he KNOWS about. Otherwise, he's like any ignoramus who talks about things he doesn't know about, and says lots of things that those who do know about it, knows he's talking out of his behind.
 

crippli

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If he is being irrational about religion, then by your definition, he is trying to explain religions as they are not, i.e., what he is saying about religions is just plain wrong.

Then I would expect him to ONLY talk about the things he KNOWS about. Otherwise, he's like any ignoramus who talks about things he doesn't know about, and says lots of things that those who do know about it, knows he's talking out of his behind.
Exactly. And I guess there are non (or very few) religious people who knows what they are talking about either about religion, but still every sunday the mouths goes like automatic robots. Then those who have been listening goes home, make babies, and the mouths keeps going. And non of them knows what they are talking about. A viscous circle, and then the science people on top who knows even less. When is it going to end? The ignoramuses?
 
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