Arguement on 'belonging'

[Grayman]

Re: Do you belong here?

I don't understand the phrase, 'belong here'. I'm either here or I'm not.

 

[TimeAsylums]

I don't understand the phrase, 'belong here.'

awww, are you a thinker thank can't comprehend feelings

[bimgx=300]http://blog.spoongraphics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/robot/robot-character.jpg[/bimgx]

 

[Grayman]

Re: Do you belong here?

awww, are you a thinker thank can't comprehend feeling.

I understand it's effects. I don't understand the abratrary placement of the value of 'belong' or 'loyalty' to this forum.

Do I belong if we all share the same views? If that is the case then belonging means I am in a position of stagnant growth.

Do I belong if I am accepted by others in the forum? If that is the case, then my worth is determined by others and my individuality is diminished to non existence.

 

[Jennywocky]

Re: Do you belong here?

I understand it's effects. I don't understand the abratrary placement of the value of 'belong' or 'loyalty' to this forum.

Do I belong if we all share the same views? If that is the case then belonging means I am in a position of stagnant growth.

Do I belong if I am accepted by others in the forum? If that is the case, then my worth is determined by others and my individuality is diminished to non existence.

I think that was his point: You are framing the question in a contradictory way, rather than framing the question in the way it was meant.

It's not really about any of those things, it's asking you about a feeling state and instead of being able to offer some type of response in that context, you're saying, "Cannot compute, I do not understand, it makes no sense to me and/or is irrelevant to me."

Feelers are capable of thought; thinkers are capable of emotions. One doesn't have to belong to a binary category, human beings encompass aspects of various categories and it's more a matter of preference and degree than capability. The typical human being has elements of every category, even when preferences exist.

So... regardless of what you think is rational or logical... do you feel like you belong or do you feel like an outsider, and to what degree? Or is it truly an inconsequential question for you?

 

[Hawkeye]

Re: Do you belong here?

I don't understand the phrase, 'belong here'. I'm either here or I'm not.

A car can be stuck in a tree.

Does it belong there? Normally, no; however, it could have been placed there on purpose and therefore does belong there from one point of view.

 

[Grayman]

Re: Do you belong here?

So... regardless of what you think is rational or logical... do you feel like you belong or do you feel like an outsider, and to what degree?

What I feel is irrelevant. Allowing myself the illusion of belonging is allowing myself to suffer ingnorance of reality. Perhaps you should consider why you have the need to feel like you belong. Belonging is not a feeling in itself but a construct of various unhealthy feelings.

Lack of self confidence being the most obvious.

 

[TimeAsylums]

Re: Do you belong here?

Belonging is not a feeling in itself but a construct of various unhealthy feelings.

Lack of self confidence being the most obvious.

Spoiler

LOL

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can not compute trolling level

 

[Grayman]

Re: Do you belong here?

A car can be stuck in a tree.

Does it belong there? Normally, no; however, it could have been placed there on purpose and therefore does belong there from one point of view.

This example, you gave, is based on a unpersonalized form of belonging and is strictly a pattern recognition form of 'belonging'. The OP was referring to a more personal definition. If the question was meant literally as you seem to portray it, then it would be equivalent of asking if we are perfect representations of INTP, as we are in an INTP forum.

 

[Grayman]

Re: Do you belong here?

Spoiler

LOL

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can not compute trolling level

I doubt they were trolling when they referred or even hinted at me being a robot. That just their point of view. I can respect that although my view is different.

 

[Jennywocky]

Re: Do you belong here?

What I feel is irrelevant. Allowing myself the illusion of belonging is allowing myself to suffer ingnorance of reality. Perhaps you should consider why you have the need to feel like you belong. Belonging is not a feeling in itself but a construct of various unhealthy feelings.

Lack of self confidence being the most obvious.

Lol. Okay.

For you being "okay" with differences of opinion, it seems belied by the negativity of your response. So you honestly cannot perceive any positives in associating with other human beings or any feelings that might accompany it that could be positive? Do you just participate on this forum because we are information conduits that could prove useful for you? My comments simply suggested you are locked in a particular framework, so you misunderstood Time Asylums question, yet you're now coming back with some pretty cynical assumptions about the forces that accompany "feelings of belonging."

Let's entertain this a moment: Why do you use an avatar of Gandalf -- isn't it a weakness to identify with another persona, why not just use your own photograph? Are you actually identifying with another human being here? If so, could this be a lack of confidence in who you yourself are? That you actually feel a connection nor identification with another? Or does that sound as silly as the kinds of things you're suggesting about others at the moment? You're being inconsistent without even realizing it.

I doubt they were trolling when they referred or even hinted at me being a robot. That just their point of view. I can respect that although my view is different.

yes, let's be clear:

- No, I'm not trolling; I'm being deathly serious and hitting the issue right on the chin.

- I never called you a robot. But I think the way you are framing the question being asked is not the framework in which the question was stated, and for some reason you're only perceiving one framework as valid.

It's the same as judging a square peg for not fitting into the round hole. The square peg is perfectly fine and even appropriate if you're working with a board full of square holes.

 

[Grayman]

Re: Do you belong here?

It was not my intention to portray this as an observation of your feelings but to instead determine what they are. I was observing how the feelings are often used on a general basis.

Nor is it my intention to highjack this thread so if you wish to discuss this further, I would be willing elsewhere.

 

[Grayman]

So... regardless of what you think is rational or logical... do you feel like you belong or do you feel like an outsider, and to what degree?

What I feel is irrelevant. Allowing myself the illusion of belonging is allowing myself to suffer ingnorance of reality. Perhaps you should consider why you have the need to feel like you belong. Belonging is not a feeling in itself but a construct of various unhealthy feelings.

Lack of self confidence being the most obvious

Lol. Okay.

For you being "okay" with differences of opinion, it seems belied by the negativity of your response. So you honestly cannot perceive any positives in associating with other human beings or any feelings that might accompany it that could be positive? Do you just participate on this forum because we are information conduits that could prove useful for you? My comments simply suggested you are locked in a particular framework, so you misunderstood Time Asylums question, yet you're now coming back with some pretty cynical assumptions about the forces that accompany "feelings of belonging."

Let's entertain this a moment: Why do you use an avatar of Gandalf -- isn't it a weakness to identify with another persona, why not just use your own photograph? Are you actually identifying with another human being here? If so, could this be a lack of confidence in who you yourself are? That you actually feel a connection nor identification with another? Or does that sound as silly as the kinds of things you're suggesting about others at the moment? You're being inconsistent without even realizing it.



yes, let's be clear:

- No, I'm not trolling; I'm being deathly serious and hitting the issue right on the chin.

- I never called you a robot. But I think the way you are framing the question being asked is not the framework in which the question was stated, and for some reason you're only perceiving one framework as valid.

It's the same as judging a square peg for not fitting into the round hole. The square peg is perfectly fine and even appropriate if you're working with a board full of square holes.

 

[Grayman]

I chose gandolf 'the grey' because it fit with my name. I do not want people to know who I am because they will not react well to the way I actually think and they will make things difficult for me.

Please help me understand Asylums post if I am misunderstanding.

I am not understanding your analogy. What tool/concept am I misusing?

 

[redbaron]

What tool/concept am I misusing?

9/16 hex bolt wrench.

 

[Hawkeye]

What about being sent to an AA course because you were caught drunk driving one time.

It was a complete accident; you made a mistake, but you're not an alcoholic.

I doubt you'd feel like you belonged on the course because you know what you did was wrong and have no intention of repeating the action.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Re: Do you belong here?

I actually find this derail to be ridiculously productive.

Spoiler

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

For reference, the thread that spawned this: http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=14809

REGREM!!!

 

[Jennywocky]

Re: Do you belong here?

Cookies are good.

(Although I think that's far more a derail than an actual discussion on the essence of "belonging," in a thread actually about whether people feel they belong on this forum or not. Gosh, this place cracks me up.)

 

[Grayman]

What about being sent to an AA course because you were caught drunk driving one time.

It was a complete accident; you made a mistake, but you're not an alcoholic.

I doubt you'd feel like you belonged on the course because you know what you did was wrong and have no intention of repeating the action.

The discussions would not likely be useful but I may stick around for one sitting to see what happens. Belonging in this case is irrelevant since the underlying feeling or lack of feeling is boredom and lack of concern for what is going on in the meeting.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

A basic question: If you exist, do you belong to the universe?

 

[Hawkeye]

The discussions would not likely be useful but I may stick around for one sitting to see what happens. Belonging in this case is irrelevant since the underlying feeling or lack of feeling is boredom and lack of concern for what is going on in the meeting.

The sense of belonging is not irrelevant. Apathy is a result of lack of belonging.

In terms of personal feelings, belonging is either having a close relationship with a group/something, or feeling a natural part of a group/something.

If you don't feel either, then by definition, you do not feel you belong to that group/something.

 

[TimeAsylums]

love how this simple turned into definition turned into philosophy turned into...


oh wait, that's just about every thread lol

 

[Jennywocky]

love how this simple turned into definition turned into philosophy turned into...

it's all your fault, you know.

I was just trying to clarify what you said, since I felt your point had been missed; and somehow I ended up becoming a major player in this hashout of the purported nefarious underbelly of community.

Am I back to a 6 yet?

 

[TimeAsylums]

it's all your fault, you know.

I was just trying to clarify what you said, since I felt your point had been missed; and somehow I ended up becoming a major player in this hashout of the purported nefarious underbelly of community.

Spoiler

That's what I don't

Am I back to a 6 yet?

6 cuils?

 

[Jennywocky]

6 cuils?

Well, that's not what I meant, but I actually like that answer better.

You ask if you belong. I look at you. Green crystal obsidian drips from my eyes and shatters on the floor. A mouse walks by and collects it to insert within his navel. "Only I lived to tell the tail," as he says to his posterior before melting into a buttery whisky blur of doves soaring through a cardboard landscape of truffala trees and 2009 Camri's decked to the max with Christmas decorations and mounted by giant golem Bhudda's. Bhudda eats a hamburger. Something inside you dies a bit. He eats another burger, this one bleating like a histrionic sea cow, and this time you perk up. There are matches shoved under your toenails. The mouse lights them. The flames tickle, and you smell pickles -- not dill, but delightful gerkins sweet with the memories of forgotten love. Your feet are carbonized lumps but you do not care; your mind is awash with delicate hayseed frollicks and mashed lips and purple nibbles on your neck and armpits.

"Yes," I say, "Yes you," I say to you, "Yes you do," I say over and over, "Yes you do belong," i say with quivering knuckles and scattered pictures and watercolor memories of the dreams we left behind, and your heart is aglow like the flames of a billion zillion bunsen burners licking at high school lab experiments in a back closet while galaxies dance and quasars blipblop and radiation turns every life form in the universe a brilliant emerald.

But you know I am lying.

 

[TimeAsylums]

...But you know I am lying.

Do you belong yet, Grayman?

 

[doncarlzone]

Re: Do you belong here?

I don't understand the phrase, 'belong here'. I'm either here or I'm not.

If this forum was a high school, would you be invited to any parties?

 

[Grayman]

Re: Do you belong here?

If this forum was a high school, would you be invited to any parties?

The epitome of unhealthy values of belonging.

Thank god, no.

 

[DelusiveNinja]

Don't you belong if you relate with people/ideas subjectively or objectively? Is it true that if you belong subjectively, then you belong forever? I think you can deny your subjective belonging, but it will always be there. For example, people who loved to play Donkey Kong, but stopped playing some years back can probably still belong (relate) to those who love playing now.

 

[Grayman]

The sense of belonging is not irrelevant. Apathy is a result of lack of belonging.

In terms of personal feelings, belonging is either having a close relationship with a group/something, or feeling a natural part of a group/something.

If you don't feel either, then by definition, you do not feel you belong to that group/something.

The need of belonging and not getting it is the result of Apathy. I need only to associate and care on an individual level but belong to no group or person.

 

[Grayman]

Don't you belong if you relate with people/ideas subjectively or objectively? Is it true that if you belong subjectively, then you belong forever? I think you can deny your subjective belonging, but it will always be there. For example, people who loved to play Donkey Kong, but stopped playing some years back can probably still belong (relate) to those who love playing now.

Relating too and belonging are different. I don't care about the donkey kong lovers group but i do love donkey kong on a more personal level. Subjective values only have value in the subject. Values exist only as we give them value. When you look at your friend, you are only reimaging your values on him but you don't realy understand how he feels about donkey kong you only create the illusion of a shared understanding.

 

[Duxwing]

What I feel is irrelevant.

What you feel is in question and therefore relevant. If you want a more precise question, then read the one below:

"Consider the abstract entity, "INTP Forum" and note whether you experience a feeling of attachment. Consider your relationship to and position in the socio-emotional network of the members of INTP Forum and note whether you experience a feeling of satisfaction. If you experience the aforementioned feelings of attachment and satisfaction, then say 'I belong in INTP Forum'; if not, 'I belong not in INTP Forum'. If you can describe the aforementioned feelings and their causes, then please so do below."

-Duxwing

 

[Hawkeye]

The need of belonging and not getting it is the result of Apathy.

Regardless, belonging is not irrelevant; nor are feelings for that matter.

I need only to associate and care on an individual level but belong to no group or person.

This is a sense of belonging on an individual scale...

 

[Cherry Cola]

Erh unless you are some kind fictional ubermensch who can magically shut out all feelings and still do stuff then feelings should be considered and used rationally. Rather than go "hey belonging is irrational thus I don't belong" - which is a naive line of thought since your feelings are not under direct control of your rationally arrived at conclusions - how about "hey belonging is inevitable so lets belong somewhere that will spur intellectual growth or w/e I value"

 

[Grayman]

A basic question: If you exist, do you belong to the universe?

(Personalized Belonging)
The yes example...

1) God made the universe to hold man so that he can live in happiness. He provided him with food and light and a woman to keep him company.​

The no example..
2) We used to live in a different universe until we sinned and were cast out so no we wander seeking value in a universe we don't belong in.

The does not compute example...
3) There is no creator and it is random that I even exist in this universe. There was no intention of creating me. Although I physically exist here it is pointless to ask the level at which I feel I belong here as it is just the result of being a part of the universe. I cannot feel anything about it.



(Simple catagorization Belonging without PERSONAL VALUE)
4) I exist within the universe and all things that exist in the universe belong in the universe.

 

[Hawkeye]

Ah... nihilism. FAN-TASTIC...

 

[DelusiveNinja]

If I change the word "universe" to "cosmos" will that eliminate some examples? Guys I think we found an alien. He doesn't belong to the universe for the universe belongs to him.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Surely you have a subjective sense of belonging as well? One that is tied in with the fact that you are of the human species living in a specific time and place and all that.

Even if you deny the rationality of thinking along such lines you can't say you aren't aware of the existence of such lines. Or, do you mean to say that if the universe was such that everyone you knew would suddenly be switched with strangers which you still had to hang out with, then you wouldn't feel like you didn't belong with them simply because that would be the objective state of things in such a case?

Edit: What I'm getting at is that you would understand belonging if you experienced sudden alienation.

 

[Grayman]

What you feel is in question and therefore relevant. If you want a more precise question, then read the one below:

"Consider the abstract entity, "INTP Forum" and note whether you experience a feeling of attachment. Consider your relationship to and position in the socio-emotional network of the members of INTP Forum and note whether you experience a feeling of satisfaction. If you experience the aforementioned feelings of attachment and satisfaction, then say 'I belong in INTP Forum'; if not, 'I belong not in INTP Forum'. If you can describe the aforementioned feelings and their causes, then please so do below."

-Duxwing

Give me some time to ponder....

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

(Personalized Belonging)
The yes example...

1) God made the universe to hold man so that he can live in happiness. He provided him with food and light and a woman to keep him company.​

The no example..
2) We used to live in a different universe until we sinned and were cast out so no we wander seeking value in a universe we don't belong in.

The does not compute example...
3) There is no creator and it is random that I even exist in this universe. There was no intention of creating me. Although I physically exist here it is pointless to ask the level at which I feel I belong here as it is just the result of being a part of the universe. I cannot feel anything about it.

(Simple catagorization Belonging without PERSONAL VALUE)
4) I exist within the universe and all things that exist in the universe belong in the universe.

Yet personal values exist within the universe...

This whole 4 point drawn out explanation seems like a fancy way to avoid the implications of this:

I don't understand the phrase, 'belong here'. I'm either here or I'm not.

You either exist or you don't. (Which in itself is flawed. Does a random occupant of *insert third world nation here* know you exist? How can it be proven that you exist if they can't see it for themselves?)

You're in the forum community, yet give an intentionally nebulous answer. So it's fair to say that you don't know yourself sufficiently enough to know whether or not you belong?

What I'm getting at is that you would understand belonging if you experienced sudden alienation.

Well, we did just return from a 3-4 day outage...

 

[Absurdity]

He's so socially obtuse! Of course he belongs!

 

[Grayman]

This is a sense of belonging on an individual scale...

@EVERYONE

Does a man belong with his wife or his mistress? What if he enjoys the company of his mistress more?



What is different between loving and feeling affection toward and being satisfied around someone and belonging? Loyalty and duty is what makes belonging personal. It provides a sense of ownership or a sense of duty to a group or person.

I belong with my wife and in my home and with my kids because I have loyalty toward them. I do not belong to or with, anyone else. I belong to no group or entity. To me it makes little sense to ask if I feel like I belong in a forum because it makes no sense to have loyalty to a forum.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Does a man belong with his wife or his mistress? What if he enjoys the company of his mistress more?

They're not mutually exclusive.

What is different between loving and feeling affection toward and being satisfied around someone and belonging? Loyalty and duty is what makes belonging personal. It provides a sense of ownership or a sense of duty to a group or person.

I belong with my wife and in my home and with my kids because I have loyalty toward them. I do not belong to or with, anyone else.

Loyalty and duty are the result of recognizing one's complete role in the system at large, which encompasses social and emotional capital. Moreover, loyalty and duty exist along a gradient.

I belong to no group or entity.

You are not a special snowflake.

For being "Grayman" you sure are black and white.

 

[BigApplePi]

Trying to define "belong." I got 1/3 way thru this thread before I had an idea. As a person fond of thinking I want to remove all emotion ... or do it the best I can.

Belonging is not an isolated absolute. A belongs to B is the whole meaning. I don't belong here if I'm not wanted. If I'm wanted I still may not belong here if it's not for me. It must be mutual. INTPs I've heard tend to be isolated so that may be why there is a puzzle. We need not dwell on the word, "want." Fit or appropriate or "used that way exclusively" can be added.

Now I'd better go back to read this thread else this post may be redundant and not belong here, lol. If it is redundant I'll be forced to erase it so if you read it and it's not here take it as not belonging.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Trying to define "belong." I got 1/3 way thru this thread before I had an idea. As a person fond of thinking I want to remove all emotion ... or do it the best I can.

If emotion is a part of you, and you block it out, can you then accurately assess where "you" belong while in such an emotionless state?

 

[Grayman]

You are not a special snowflake.

For being "Grayman" you sure are black and white.

Loyalty is kind of pointless in the gray area.

"Wife! I am going out tonight. Don't worry I plan to remain 40% loyal to you. I'll at least ignore 40% of the women who want in my pants."

*I love them hobbitses.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Loyalty is kind of pointless in the gray area.

"Wife! I am going out tonight. Don't worry I plan to remain 40% loyal to you. I'll at least ignore 40% of the women who want in my pants."

*I love them hobbitses.

Why can't one belong to multiple things/places/ideas? Why not belong to everything, everywhere, anywhere?

The gray area also isn't special. It's actually rife with all sorts of traps that lead to the worship of false gods... like... golden means in addition to binary logic.

 

[BigApplePi]

@Grayman

Does a man belong with his wife or his mistress? What if he enjoys the company of his mistress more?

People do not belong to other people ... unless one is thinking romantically. We are not slaves.

What is different between loving and feeling affection toward and being satisfied around someone and belonging? Loyalty and duty is what makes belonging personal. It provides a sense of ownership or a sense of duty to a group or person.

Loyalty is a good word. One chooses to be faithful to a group or person who wants or needs them. One could back out, but the rapport* with the person or group is a big draw.

I belong with my wife and in my home and with my kids because I have loyalty toward them. I do not belong to or with, anyone else. I belong to no group or entity. To me it makes little sense to ask if I feel like I belong in a forum because it makes no sense to have loyalty to a forum.

Again, your loyalty is at your end. But it's your wife, home and kids with whom you have a mutual relationship that makes it belonging.

As for the forum, that's a tough one. One can be merely compatible with this forum, but if it depends on you for some strong reason ... well that raises the Q of indispensability. The owner of this forum belongs to it ... or rather the forum belongs to the owner.

*rapport is a weak word

 

[Grayman]

Why can't one belong to multiple things/places/ideas? Why not belong to everything, everywhere, anywhere?

The gray area also isn't special. It's actually rife with all sorts of traps that lead to the worship of false gods... like... golden means in addition to binary logic.

That is not a result of less loyalty but when you choose one over another you are in effect being disloyal to the one. This is why I keep my loyalties to a minimum. There are also other things like covenants where it is not about loyalty but about an agreement to a specific goal or purpose. A good example is that I consider myself having a covenant with my government. The goal and purpose is to promote a satisfactory level of freedom and safety for my family but that does not mean they have my loyalty. I will turn on my government the moment it fails to provide its part of the covenant. I have a loyalty to my country as it is my home at I need a home to provide safety and protection for me and family.


****

You could say that I prefer the illusionary result.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

That is not a result of less loyalty but when you choose one over another you are in effect being disloyal to the one.

Not at all. I can choose cake and pie and still love and be loyal to both. In fact, I can even choose cake and pie.

I will turn on my government the moment it fails to provide its part of the covenant.

So in other words being loyal to your country doesn't exclude you being loyal to other entities that may provide the same goals.