Are you 'negative'?

[Not Anyone To Care For]

Whenever a issue occurs or I find flaws in my family's decision making and I apply logic and reasoning to them they always say that I'm 'negative' and it gets under my skin because it's just the truth.

Do any of you also have this problem with family? It is constant for me.

 

[Pyropyro]

No. People usually ask me to advise them prior to making decisions. I guess they're getting a positive experience out my discussions with them.

 

[Fukyo]

No.

Depends on what you say though, it's not necessarily rational, or the truth.

 

[Not Anyone To Care For]

No. People usually ask me to advise them prior to making decisions. I guess they're getting a positive experience out my discussions with them.

This is issue is mainly with my family, otherwise people like my sense of logic.
My family just doesn't like it for some reason and I have no idea why.

 

[Not Anyone To Care For]

No.

Depends on what you say though, it's not necessarily rational, or the truth.

I wish I could have a example to share with you at this momment, I think you would understand. Thanks

 

[TheManBeyond]

about possibilities and taking action to make changes? no
i'm always setting myself on fire to see what happens
on my view on humanity yes

 

[Pyropyro]

This is issue is mainly with my family, otherwise people like my sense of logic.
My family just doesn't like it for some reason and I have no idea why.

Are you the breadwinner of the family? Do you get shit done for the family?

 

[xbox]

too skeptical to be positive but too to apathetic to be negative?

 

[Grayman]

I am so optimistic that I see critism as a highly positive thing. It isn't my fault that people perceive it as being negative.

 

[Tannhauser]

Are you the breadwinner of the family? Do you get shit done for the family?

whoa, slow down there mr. Righteousness

With regards to topic – I have slowly learned than humans are humans. Even when talking to really logical and analytical people, you have to sugarcoat shit when coming with critique (except for good mathematicians – they don't give a fuck). When it comes to ordinary people, well.. you probably know how it is.

 

[onesteptwostep]

There's intentionally being negative, and there's being disengaged. Being disengaged is as bad as being negative, usually. If you have problems with your family, try to awaken yourself from the subjective mode.

 

[Pyropyro]

whoa, slow down there mr. Righteousness

With regards to topic – I have slowly learned than humans are humans. Even when talking to really logical and analytical people, you have to sugarcoat shit when coming with critique (except for good mathematicians – they don't give a fuck). When it comes to ordinary people, well.. you probably know how it is.

I'm just looking for a solution to OP's issue. Logic usually don't trigger people much and OP also said that people aside from their family is okay with their logical arguments so perhaps tactfulness isn't the problem. Perhaps the issue lies in the family's internal politics.

 

[Not Anyone To Care For]

Are you the breadwinner of the family? Do you get shit done for the family?

I'm not a bread winner but I do get shit done.

The issues I'm debating about with my family never include money because like you said I'm not the bread winner. I know my place and I never over step that boundary the issues I am talking about are more observational in nature (if that makes any sense?).

 

[Not Anyone To Care For]

too skeptical to be positive but too to apathetic to be negative?

Exactly

 

[Not Anyone To Care For]

I am so optimistic that I see critism as a highly positive thing. It isn't my fault that people perceive it as being negative.

This is more or less what I am talking about here.

 

[Pyropyro]

I'm not a bread winner but I do get shit done.

The issues I'm debating about with my family never include money because like you said I'm not the bread winner. I know my place and I never over step that boundary the issues I am talking about are more observational in nature (if that makes any sense?).

Ah I see. If that's not the case then I think onesteptwostep might have identified it. If I understand correctly, it seems that you seem disinterested to your family and they might think that you're not actively engaging them. Unfortunately, this tend to be one of our failings.

If so, I think one solution is to phrase your observations/arguments as questions. It usually isn't as offensive as saying a disinterested logical argument since it will appear that they're the ones who generated the argument in the first place.

 

[Not Anyone To Care For]

Ah I see. If that's not the case then I think onesteptwostep might have identified it. If I understand correctly, it seems that you seem disinterested to your family and they might think that you're not actively engaging them. Unfortunately, this tend to be one of our failings.

If so, I think one solution is to phrase your observations/arguments as questions. It usually isn't as offensive as saying a disinterested logical argument since it will appear that they're the ones who generated the argument in the first place.

Yeah that makes sense, thank you. I will try to work on it because sometimes it doesn't end well.

 

[bvanevery]

This is more or less what I am talking about here.

A basic reason for things like the MBTI to exist, is so you can understand various people's preferred modalities are different from your own. When they are different... if you don't understand, appreciate, and apply yourself to those differences, they are going to spank you on the ass for it. In their mind you are being a jerk.

There are some areas in my life where I've become unapologetic for my nature and point of view. In others, I have recognized the need for diplomacy, observation, and tact. It depends on how much I value the people, whether I have any goals for the conversation that I consider important (like effecting social change), and whether I'm going to suffer any consequences for running my mouth the wrong way (like getting shot, losing money, getting a ticket, etc.)

For me the biggest likely conflict in MBTI terms, are the people I strongly suspect to be Sensor Judgers. Man they are dangerous. Stupid controlling blowhards, basically.

 

[redbaron]

Yes.

 

[smithcommajohn]

This goes way beyond family.

Most people consider me analytical with an implied negativity. I definitely see every glass as half empty and worry that the glass will somehow fall and break into a million little shards that I will inevitably step on.

Is this negative? Probably. :P

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

One way to measure how negative you are is to see how much you use negation in a sentence.

If you don't use the word not much then it's not likely that you're negative, but if you do say not a lot, or don't, can't, won't, shouldn't, couldn't, wouldn't, shan't, then it's likely that you're not negative, but rather positive. Obviously this isn't always the case, but it's a good principle to use if you don't overdo it.

--

I see the glass as full: half filled with water, half with air.

I see the glass as empty: all matter essentially has zero density.

I see the glass as full: all that is around one has existence of some kind or another.

I see the glass as empty: wholly void of truly independent substance.

 

[PmjPmj]

No, but people see my pointing out of flaws / potential pitfalls to be 'moaning'.

These days I just sit back and let them fuck up. Eventually, they realise that I know what I'm on about and begin to pay attention. Quite a few people come to me when they need a problem solving.

I can see how I may occasionally appear to be negative or realistic, but at heart I'm a massive optimist.

 

[bvanevery]

These days I just sit back and let them fuck up. Eventually, they realise that I know what I'm on about and begin to pay attention. Quite a few people come to me when they need a problem solving.

I learned awhile ago particularly in a workplace setting, there's such a thing as being "too early" with the correct analysis of how everything is fucked. You have to let other people struggle with it a bit, so that they become invested in the problem and think they themselves figured it out. If you tell them what the problem is when they're still too stupid to understand it, there's a good chance they'll resent you for it. Or ignore you, which isn't quite as bad, but it's frustrating to explain something critical to someone who hasn't figured out why they're supposed to care yet.

I do not trust group dynamics in this way. I generally think people are stupid in this respect. Consequently I have geared my so-called career to solo effort. I can put up with my own mistakes, I do not like being saddled with other people's.

 

[PmjPmj]

^ same.

I'm fortunate in that I work with truly competent people these days - but I have my own site to manage, and work alone 99% of the time. It's so much better this way. In the past, working with others has proved overbearingly draining at best, and disastrous at worst.

 

[Jetta]

I can't stand people in positions of authority who don't think properly. Irrational rule followers are not fit for leadership.

 

[bvanevery]

According to various managerial theories, people can get to leadership positions in a number of different ways. Being "the brain trust" doesn't have to be one of them. Consensus building is one of the known styles of leadership. The skills of building consensus, are often at odds with those of determining what is analytically correct and factual. You can end up with very "milk toast" and "Dilbert" leadership when the top brass values everyone getting along, more than they value understanding the situation they face.

On the other hand, the leadership of an intelligent person mostly in command of the facts can be brutal. Look no farther than Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. Both very bright and complete assholes about it.

I prefer to work for mysef and not be led by anyone.

 

[Veravera]

I suspect I come off that way but I rarely get told I'm negative—using that exact word. I'm definitely quick to correct and point out stupidity, wrongness or where something fails. Most of my family have gotten used to it by now.

 

[narcissistic]

If you count/see pessimism/nihilism as "negativism" then yes.

 

[Not Anyone To Care For]

I am usually viewed as positive from my peers. My dad is very stubborn with his points of view even when they are blatantly illogical he just doesn't like to be proved wrong (I believe he is an ISTJ if that means anything?) and my mother is ISFP and she just listens to whatever my dad says without questioning it. They seem to be incapable of understanding how I think and they take my views and thoughts as threatening, whenever I try to get them to understand my point of view to converse about it they just shut it down without a second thought. Can any of you give me advice? I would appreciate it greatly.

 

[Minuend]

Why do you want them to understand how you think?
If someone is very different from you, sometimes it's just best to enjoy what you have in common and not focus on what you disagree on or how you're different. (If you have something in common where you can enjoy each others company). I mean, why argue with them if they are disinterested in arguments?

As long as their poor decision making doesn't impact your economy, health or similar, then I'd just let them live their lives the way they want to. Even if they're about to make a big mistake, sometimes the only way people learn is by experiencing the mistake themselves. I assume you're getting old enough to move out soon anyway? (If you didn't already)

 

[Not Anyone To Care For]

Why do you want them to understand how you think?
If someone is very different from you, sometimes it's just best to enjoy what you have in common and not focus on what you disagree on or how you're different. (If you have something in common where you can enjoy each others company). I mean, why argue with them if they are disinterested in arguments?

As long as their poor decision making doesn't impact your economy, health or similar, then I'd just let them live their lives the way they want to. Even if they're about to make a big mistake, sometimes the only way people learn is by experiencing the mistake themselves. I assume you're getting old enough to move out soon anyway? (If you didn't already)

I want them to understand how I think because they see me as negative when I am actually optimistic and it doesn't paint a very good picture for them and I never argue with them really, I'm always aiming for friendly conversation. I feel like the relationship with my parents is very different from a majority of INTP type people and I just want a confirmation of that. Also, yes I am getting ready to move out here soon hopefully in the next year or so I am fairly young.

 

[Minuend]

I see

I want them to understand how I think because they see me as negative when I am actually optimistic

Example?

I think a lot of parent - offspring relationships improves when the latter moves out. Sometimes living close and seeing each other every day can be straining and in itself make people more negatively biased toward each others. Best case scenario this whole things kinda solves itself after a while. There's a good chance you'll never be able to reach that mutual understanding, but at least both parties might still enjoy each others company.

If you think your parents perceived something you didn't mean, sometimes it's best to just say it. Tell them you think they misunderstood you. Maybe tell them it seems like they sometimes interpret you worse than you intended to come off. Explain your thoughts and motivation behind saying what you did. Stuff like that. If you tried that already, how did they react?

 

[Not Anyone To Care For]

I see



Example?

I think a lot of parent - offspring relationships improves when the latter moves out. Sometimes living close and seeing each other every day can be straining and in itself make people more negatively biased toward each others. Best case scenario this whole things kinda solves itself after a while. There's a good chance you'll never be able to reach that mutual understanding, but at least both parties might still enjoy each others company.

If you think your parents perceived something you didn't mean, sometimes it's best to just say it. Tell them you think they misunderstood you. Maybe tell them it seems like they sometimes interpret you worse than you intended to come off. Explain your thoughts and motivation behind saying what you did. Stuff like that. If you tried that already, how did they react?

I don't think I am capable of creating a coherent example right now but when I can I will post on this thread again.

Yeah I hope that is true I think things will eventually work out for me

I try explaining to them that I didn't mean to come off as a prick but they just think I am trying to defend my "negative" viewpoint. It's kind of odd since I don't have this problem with anyone else I just don't know honestly..


Also, thanks for giving me a different perspective I appreciate it.

 

[Minuend]

It could be some sort of pride driving them as well. Being wrong is wounding their pride and they get angry. Or maybe they just don't like being questioned, maybe they want you to be the obedient, non-questioning child. If so, you might never get anywhere with them. It could also be you come off a certain way to them which they find unpleasant. Difficult to say without seeing you interact.

-----

As for topic, I usually don't offer much of own opinions to people outside friends (and forums, I guess). My interaction with my family is mostly various small talk of no importance. I'm fairly different from my family, sometimes it's as if we're of a different culture. So for me I see them as having their priorities and opinions, and me mine. There's no reason to really exchange them. I wont say this is necessarily a good or the right way to interact with people, though.

So I'm generally not considered negative by my family afaik. I usually remain quiet and talk little. And what I say is generally trivial. Recently I was visiting some family, grandparents, aunt and I said some retarded things which later I figured I should've kept to myself. But my mother told me later in private she thought it had been a very nice evening and it was nice hearing me talk. That kinda took me off guard.

I guess I'm also fairly aware of what people "want" from me in a conversation, and since they usually get that they will be biased to think well of me should I ever need to address something "negative". In workplace, my suggestions for changing things that didn't work was more considered enthusiasm and interest rather than pessimism. I can come across as a fairly upbeat, positive person if I want. One of the perks of being ENFP, I guess (yeah I noticed thread was in the INTP section). Though I think this ability has diminished as I've become more cynical and distanced.

Anyways. Tldr I only offer the "negative" if I think it's important to point out or if serves some purpose. Most of the time I leave people to their business regardless of what I think of their doings.

 

[QuickTwist]

whoa, slow down there mr. Righteousness

With regards to topic – I have slowly learned than humans are humans. Even when talking to really logical and analytical people, you have to sugarcoat shit when coming with critique (except for good mathematicians – they don't give a fuck). When it comes to ordinary people, well.. you probably know how it is.

This is very true. Most people want you to be interested in them and they couldn't give a shit about what is happening in your life. I know this is not exactly what you are talking about, but it fills a similar vein. Even in small talk people want you to be interested in them. Simply applying a little interest in them goes pretty far for the relationship to come out ok. People only listen to your problems as a favor from them. Sad but true.

As far as OP is concerned, I am not really so much a negative person, I just don't get excited about shit unless it is really something outstanding. The hum drum of everyday life doesn't have a whole lot to be "positive" about. I leave it at that I guess.

 

[Haim]

Lightning is a sudden electrostatic discharge

Electric charge is the physical property of matter that causes it to experience a force when placed in an electromagnetic field. There are two types of electric charges: positive and negative.

I am lightning(being positive here).

It really meaningless to say I am positive person or negative, I am made up from more than 2 labels.
If I predict something will not succeed or might cause some issues which can be prevented, I will say it.
If something sucks, I will say that it is suck.

With that said for one example, being aspiring indie(and not) game developer in such a small(but growing) industry as Israel, you can not do it without being positive in some way.

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

Whenever a issue occurs or I find flaws in my family's decision making and I apply logic and reasoning to them they always say that I'm 'negative' and it gets under my skin because it's just the truth.

Do any of you also have this problem with family? It is constant for me.

This seems like a likely phrasing issue to me. To them it probably seems like your intent is to disprove them, which would indeed be negative, vs, say... making improvements with their goals in mind. The solution could be as simple as rephrasing to "Have you considered that ______?" and presenting your insights as things that could better achieve their goals while giving them a chance to talk as well.

I went through a similar thing once where I was viewed as condescending by a professor because I bucked convention. My motive was simply to get others excited about a different perspective, but due to my presentation it came across mainly as me disparaging and attacking the status quo (which I was), and in turn the professor, because he was the one who taught me the status quo material initially, from which I derived the alternative perspective.

 

[Not Anyone To Care For]

Thank you for everyone who has participated in this thread.

You have helped me out a lot and I really appreciate you guys taking the time out of your day to clear my own thoughts, if only I could get this kind of interaction out in the real world... Thank you

 

[Not Anyone To Care For]

This forum is therapy