Are you a hero?

[Wish]

Ever performed a heroic act, whether by your definition or the definition of another (to your surprise)? Did you (needlessly) save Old Mrs. Turner's cat from that nasty old tree? Have you grabbed someone as they lost their stepping, slowly leaning into what would have been a fatal 200-foot drop? Have your actions (to your knowledge) indirectly saved a life?

How did it make you feel? Do you feel guilty? Did you seek recognition or did you hide? Do you think your acts heroic?

Likewise, has anyone saved your life before - and how did it feel? Did you feel as if you owed them something (how can you measure the worth of another's life)?

Really...what in the world makes a hero? Does it matter? Is anyone that manages to find reason to be alive a hero in their own right?

I have a feeling I may have asked a few too many questions...

Spoiler

Do you think I've asked too many questions?!

 

[Da Blob]

I have 'saved' a few people, and somehow their gratitude seemed inappropriate, I did not take any unnecessary risks and it just seemed to be the "right" thing to do. I have discovered that courage and cowardice are about the same thing in that both are symptoms of fear. The coward is afraid of what might happen if he or she does act, while the courageous are afraid of what might happen if they do Not act.

I also think that true bravery is confused sometimes with mere stupidity. The stupid will take risk without counting the costs, a brave person will do a cost benefit/analysis and then take the risk. I mean who is really braver, the fool that rushes in to save a puppy in a fire, not even thinking about risking leaving his own children without a father or a man who thought about such a fate, but decided that his children would not have much use for a father that did not try to save a puppy...

 

[Cogito]

Is anyone that manages to find reason to be alive a hero in their own right?

Considering that the term 'heroic' absolutely entails courage, I'd say the aforementioned scenario would be heroic only if:

a) the consequences of a certain decision are completely unknown and unpredictable beforehand, and

b) the individual has accepted the fact that they stand to lose something of personal worth should the consequence be so.

I also think that true bravery is confused sometimes with mere stupidity. The stupid will take risk without counting the costs, a brave person will do a cost benefit/analysis and then take the risk. I mean who is really braver, the fool that rushes in to save a puppy in a fire, not even thinking about risking leaving his own children without a father or a man who thought about such a fate, but decided that his children would not have much use for a father that did not try to save a puppy...

Do not besmirch the name of Gryffindor!!!!!!

 

[LucasM]

I've never been a hero, not in any way as can be constituted 'heroic' on my part. Neither have I been saved in any 'heroic' way. Yet can it be that all those seemingly every-day 'good' deeds, those little boosters (this metaphor sucks by the way), add up to more than any big grand 'heroic' act?
As Blobby here says, what can differentiate between heroism and stupidity is the thought behind it and I believe, that if a person is constantly in the habit of doing what is 'good', heroism is born.

 

[Words]

I mean who is really braver, the fool that rushes in to save a puppy in a fire, not even thinking about risking leaving his own children without a father or a man who thought about such a fate, but decided that his children would not have much use for a father that did not try to save a puppy...

As Blobby here says, what can differentiate between heroism and stupidity is the thought behind it

Perhaps some people could be natural "fools". I mean thinking is not everyone's specialty. And to act through instinct has its own merit; though, its own inconvenience. There could be several factors to consider when defining bravery, several possible "absolution". all confined within a person's traits.

--

Heroism.

I've spent my childhood admiring this idealism. Sadly, the situation--the chance to fulfill childish want--hasn't yet presented itself to me. I agree that the term, hero, should be flexible, however, my version of "hero" is held within one of my personal better virtues. Thus, the standard I set for that rank is higher.

I can't explain why its so important...

 

[Deleted member 1424]

Ever performed a heroic act, whether by your definition or the definition of another (to your surprise)? Did you (needlessly) save Old Mrs. Turner's cat from that nasty old tree?

Well I saved a small dog from drowning once. I was with my family on Lake Powell, we anchored off in the middle of the lake and swam out to an island (that was basically just a giant rock.) We left three dogs on the boat. My mom was calling out to them for some reason and one of them decided to jump. I swam out as fast as I could, as these dogs had never been in anything deeper than a bathtub, and I was certain the poor thing would sink before I got there.

My mom made a huge deal over it; called me a hero and such. It didn't seem 'heroic' to me and I was more irritated than anything else. I had told them it was bad idea to bring the dogs on the boat, I had even told them Kira (yes, after Deathnote :P) would jump off, but no I was brushed off.


I wonder how often we inadvertently save (or even kill) people and are unaware of it. For example I was once inadvertently saved by this gorgeous Lexus that cut me off in traffic. The cement truck forcible merged and rear ended her instead of me. Think about it, every time you talk to someone (or not), cut them off (or not), or somehow disrupt their life (or not) you could be saving or murdering them.

 

[EditorOne]

I saved a wig once from a burning house. My cousin and I were assigned (as firefighters) to search the house while lines were being run, in case the old lady who lived there was still home. We were on our hands and knees doing a circular search (you can see under the smoke sometimes). He spotted hair under a bed (sometimes people do irrational things like hide from fire), called me over, and we both reached under to pull her out. It was just her wig.

She wasn't home. Left a pot burning on the kitchen stove, by the time we got there the whole back of the house was burning.

We saved her wig. I think it's still in the firehouse.

 

[Cognisant]

In an incredibly selfish way I'd love to metaphorically take a bullet for someone (save them at the cost of my own life) or even get horribly mangled and have to live with it; y'see I'm acutely aware of my own mortality, and so having a worthy reason to die is incredibly attractive, as are debilitating wounds obtained "heroically" because they're such a wonderful excuse (the phrase "carpe diem" rides on my back like an undead monkey).

However as I said it's a selfish sentiment, I could do so much more for humanity by living and working to slowly make the world a better place, y'know the tireless/thankless duty of being a good person.

In this way immortality would be incredibly selfless, then again I desire immortality because I fear death, but yet again I only fear death because that's my nature as a living being... inherent virtue? I don't suppose that counts, would be like a robot (traditional type) being thanked for only doing what it's programmed to do.

Edit: I see nothing heroic about the military, it's just glorified suicide.

 

[Wish]

In an incredibly selfish way I'd love to metaphorically take a bullet for someone (save them at the cost of my own life) or even get horribly mangled and have to live with it

...

Edit: I see nothing heroic about the military, it's just glorified suicide.

What's the difference? Is military service too indirect to be considered "taking a bullet for someone"? I bet some in the military share your sentiment of what is worth damaging yourself over (in your self-professed selfish way).

 

[EditorOne]

"Edit: I see nothing heroic about the military, it's just glorified suicide."


You're looking at the thing from 30,000 feet; it's enormous, shapeless and pointless.

Bring it down to ground level and it changes somewhat. Until we figure out how to wield power without abusing power, there are going to be people who use force to gain power over others. Your military is essentially what we've come up with at this point to deter others from doing that to us. (Whoever "us" is.)

Bring it down one step farther and go on out to the pointed, bleeding edge of a combat unit, and you are one of about 30 people who depend on each other for survival in a hostile, dangerous environment, where exactly the virtues you esteem can be deployed.

I've got a book here on Congressional Medal of Honor winners from the Civil War. They are all in there, with details of what they did. Doing something brave or reckless on behalf of others in a relatively small group is ubiquitous, and the Medal of Honor was an attempt to make known to all the selfless acts of men under duress, whose virtue would have been known to only their immediate comrades otherwise.

I can also suggest you watch HBO's "Band of Brothers" if you want to see how big and ugly can play out to small and noble. It's a good series, and captures the essence of the thing as well as anything else. Or you could read Henry V again and check out Harry's St. Crispen's Day rally cry, keeping in mind that it just doesn't get any stupider than hand-to-hand combat with sword and spear, yet that speechification has raised hairs on the backs of necks for hundreds of years -- because it resonates and strikes a chord with anyone who has seen what sharing danger can do to inspire the best in the human spirit.

 

[intuitivet]

Well I've never done anything extreme, but I talked a couple of people out of committing suicide before. It's not really 'life saving' though, just giving them advice and comforting them.

 

[shoeless]

i don't consider military battle duty heroic for two reasons:

1) i don't believe it's truly accomplishing anything except for a lot of death
2) the fact that a soldier has to murder more than he has to save, for all intents and purposes, cancels out the heroicness of his deeds. (especially those who volunteer.)
...2) nationalism is silly and not worth the price of human lives.
(here's where i rant about how war is ugly, barbaric, blah blah blah liberal bullshit. don't get me wrong, i'm not the type to protest at a soldier's homecoming parade or anything, i mean, they're people too and deserve just as much respect as anyone -- but i'm not going to support the goddamn war because of a bunch of people who live in the same country as me. but anyhoozle.)


i haven't thought much about heroism as an ideal. i mean, i think it comes in a lot of forms -- i would say talking somebody out of suicide is heroic in its own way -- but it's hard to draw a line between "heroic" and "a-good-deed-but-not-quite-heroic-enough-to-be-called-heroic".

i wouldn't say i've done anything heroic. but then again, who knows i guess.

 

[EditorOne]

One of the little discussed problems the military has ALWAYS faced is the relatively large proportion of people who refuse to kill the enemy. There are accounts back to the American Civil War of men who either closed their eyes when firing, deliberately aimed at a tree or something, or just plain refused to fire. I've heard of the same thing from WWII vets. A common practice with such folks was to get them jobs away from the cutting edge but still useful -- teamster, truck driver, typist, and, interestingly, it became codified when we had conscientious objectors, some of whom would not fight but would serve as medics and others who would not even do that. Even then, they were not imprisoned, even with a draft and the nation at war, but were given alternative useful service. My fire chief for many years had been a conscientious objector during WWII; to prove it was principle and not cowardice, he became a smoke jumper in Utah, hurling out of an airplane with shovel, ax (and parachute) to do battle with wildfires. He put it to good use with us, we were one of the few outfits around that could see a burning woods fire, figure it out, and bring it under control relatively quickly.

If you want the purest sense of courage, rather than a definition of hero (which is somewhat of a loaded word) it's doing what clearly needs to be done no matter how scared you are. Fear is often different for each person; INTPs share some in common, and they are not necessarily life-threatening although giving in to them will affect the quality of your life, at least. Any time you overcome a fear that has paralyzed you, you've demonstrated courage. Whether you're a hero or not is another issue entirely. Heroic means something everyone can look up to and emulate as a role model, usually. Surely that depends on your culture; the Greeks revered Odysseus because he was such a trickster in battle; we don't hold that trait in such high regard. Rough example, "trickster" may not be perfectly right, but the idea that heroism can have more than universal aspects seemed to be important to this discussion.

 

[shoeless]

trust me, i'm aware that military service isn't completely call-of-duty-esq. my dad is a military chaplain. i have a decent basis for my knowledge.

but you can't deny that the premise of war is in defeating the enemy.
(replace "defeating" with "killing" and you get the full picture.)

it's that premise that disgusts me, and it's that premise that i simply can't support in any way, shape, or form. especially when it comes to glorifying soldiers for what they are -- elevating them above the level of any other person on this planet, just because they're willing to tote around a gun for "their country".

 

[Anthile]

That is an interesting example, EditorOne. In the so-called West, the trickster archetype has a bad reputation and is often linked to figures like Loki and, most famously, the devil himself. In the Jewish mythology, Satan is actually nowhere near as evil as in Christian mythology and is a literal advocatus diaboli.
However, in the East but especially in China, the case is much different and we see the cultures clashing there. An example would be China's plagiarizing and stealing of patents - while the western companies say it's dishonorable, the eastern ones say they are just being clever.

 

[GarmGarf]

I also think that true bravery is confused sometimes with mere stupidity. The stupid will take risk without counting the costs, a brave person will do a cost benefit/analysis and then take the risk. I mean who is really braver, the fool that rushes in to save a puppy in a fire, not even thinking about risking leaving his own children without a father or a man who thought about such a fate, but decided that his children would not have much use for a father that did not try to save a puppy...

I'd disagree somewhat in that I believe the two are of opposite dimensions; i.e: on can be of none, either or both (basically I disagree that courage only comes with analysis). So in that example of the father running to the burning house to save the puppy, sure, he might be a bit of idiot considering his family would be pretty screwed over if he died, but that does not mean that he isn't courageous. Likewise, one can be cowardly and stupid, and the other combinations.

I believe that courage is a general attribute of each human, like intelligence or strength. Each human will have different levels of fears and different levels of wants for different things, and I believe that courage is called into play when a person wants something (either for personal benefit or for the greater good or whatever) but risks their fears happening by doing that thing. More want and/or more courage will make the chance of them doing the act greater, and more fear they have for the risks of the act will make the chance less.

Basically I agree more with EditorOne, but I believe that courage isn't an all or nothing thing; i.e: one can be very courageous, but the risks of a particular task could be just too much of a fear for that person.

 

[EditorOne]

"Basically I agree more with EditorOne, but I believe that courage isn't an all or nothing thing; i.e: one can be very courageous, but the risks of a particular task could be just too much of a fear for that person."

Yes. And your ability, literally, your ability, to run risk can vary from day to day. A person could face danger with aplomb one day and run away from the same situation the next day. We are wondrous creatures.

Shoeless: Why must one kill an enemy to defeat an enemy? There ought to be smarter ways to skin the cat. Not saying much of the military isn't trained to kill, but there are folks here and there thinking about things like knocking out Saddam's central hq, with all its centralized radio so he can control everything, and thus leaving him with no effective communication with his key units across the country just as war begins. That made thousands of soldiers relatively useless, but it didn't kill but a handful. There are other situations where folks made it so clear to an enemy that he was whupped that it was better to stop fighting than keep on going; Yorktown in the American Revolution, Vicksburg in the Civil War. There's even good reason to think the American Civil War would have gone on much longer had not enormous resources been set to work stopping the South economically rather than just militarily. Blockade of the ports, no trade, no economy, no military supplies, less wherewithal to kill Yankees, growing realization it ain't gonna work out like they thought.

To me killing is what you do when everything else you've thought of isn't clever enough to get the job done.

Not that I think about it a lot. :-)

 

[RubberDucky451]

Reminds me of this TED video, you guys have probably seen it.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/philip_zimbardo_on_the_psychology_of_evil.html

 

[shoeless]

EditorOne, like i said, my dad is military and he is also a war buff -- i'm aware of all of this. i've heard my fair share of those stories. but like i said, you can't be a soldier without understanding there is a chance you're gonna have to kill. or be killed. that's a stigma that simply can't be removed from war. i'm also not so flippant to say "and only a handful will get killed!" because that's still a handful getting killed -- a handful of men with families and homes and lives getting destroyed because of some retarded power struggle.

nothing you can say will make me think war is okay. this is one of those things i actually give a damn about.

(and le tme just end this by saying, i understand about self-defense, i understand about reducing threats and blah blah blah all the reasons people go to war -- i understand that it is sometimes a necessary evil -- but i will never support it.)

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

I had a "clique" of six guys in high school. During our senior year, my best friend M. (a member of the group), came out of the closet. We had a homophobe in the group, who loudly and rudely degraded M.'s sexuality. I stood up for M., and I essentially cut off contact with the homophobe & 3 other guys. (The other three were weak, didn't feel strongly about it, and let the homophobe make the action/decision to cut M. out of our group.) I feel like I could have stood up for M. more.

M. & I are still really good friends, five years later. I'm glad that I sided with him-- he is orders of magnitude more awesome than the other four guys.

I don't know if this is heroic.

 

[EditorOne]

"and le tme just end this by saying, i understand about self-defense, i understand about reducing threats and blah blah blah all the reasons people go to war -- i understand that it is sometimes a necessary evil -- but i will never support it.) "


I'd got that. Part of what I was offering was the idea you weren't alone and in fact had a respected, recognized position in the general scheme of things. Sometimes I'm not real good in switching context, apologies.

 

[Geminii]

Talked down a suicide or three, but most of my making-the-world-a-better-place actions have been behind the scenes, in the bowels of creaky government infrastructure, where I pieced together quite a few new processes for preventing previously prevalent problems.

On my watch, hundreds of people dependent on government benefits did not have their files or documents mysteriously disappear for weeks or months in the file racks or interoffice transfer bag. They did not have their payments delayed because of laziness or typos. They did not have to fill out the same forms six or seven times over. They did have mistakes in their assessments corrected on the spot and they did get cheques cut on the spot for everything they were owed.

Most of them never knew my face, my name, or even that I existed. But I made sure they could pay their rent, feed their kids, and keep the lights on. And the systems I put in place meant that even after I left, it'd be a damn sight harder for anyone else to fall into those particular administrative black holes.

 

[Vegard Pompey]

I've never felt like a hero, at least. I try to be kind, understanding and helpful to the people I care about, and that's the full extent of my heroism I guess. As it happens, I also don't have a shred of courage in me.

 

[Reluctantly]

...
Is anyone that manages to find reason to be alive a hero in their own right?
...

Yes. Life if full of absurdity and contradictions. If someone can find reason to continue it, something that drives them to think they will have gotten something out of life by the time of their death, these are people I consider heroes.

I've always thought that depression and hopelessness only occur when someone's reasons to continue are taken from them or when someone realizes they have no reasons to begin with. And if they can find new reasons that truly inspire and move them to continue in some way with their lives, that's heroic. Especially since there is much about our existence and life that we may never know. Life is like waking up in an unfamiliar place and blindly wandering around that place; we are blind to what a lot of this world is and may always be. Finding a reason to go through with it despite the looming uncertainty of it all is pretty heroic.

But then again many animals are able to carry on despite not needing to have the ability to reason things the way humans seem to need to. Perhaps to then be able to reason while not knowing everything creates a freedom of thought that is also prisoning in that it now requires one to make reason out of what is forever uncertain - therefore reasoning the unreasonable. Then maybe I should say I find the ability of someone to reason what is unreasonable and be okay with that heroic and a little bit courageous as well.

And sorry to skip all your other questions; I skipped them because my answers were all simple and uninspired, except for the one above.

I hope this made sense.

 

[Da Blob]

Talked down a suicide or three, but most of my making-the-world-a-better-place actions have been behind the scenes, in the bowels of creaky government infrastructure, where I pieced together quite a few new processes for preventing previously prevalent problems.

On my watch, hundreds of people dependent on government benefits did not have their files or documents mysteriously disappear for weeks or months in the file racks or interoffice transfer bag. They did not have their payments delayed because of laziness or typos. They did not have to fill out the same forms six or seven times over. They did have mistakes in their assessments corrected on the spot and they did get cheques cut on the spot for everything they were owed.

Most of them never knew my face, my name, or even that I existed. But I made sure they could pay their rent, feed their kids, and keep the lights on. And the systems I put in place meant that even after I left, it'd be a damn sight harder for anyone else to fall into those particular administrative black holes.

Yet, that does to seem to be more heroic in some ways, than what is portrayed as an act of heroism in the media. It seems that the typical act of heroism is depicted as lasting seconds or a few minutes. Yet where would we all be if individuals did not stand up for their principles year after year, despite receiving little or no positive feedback for their sacrifices and efforts. Perhaps we have had the concept of heroism, diluted and perverted by the media, in the honored tradition of sensationalism and Yellow Journalism. Heroism might actually be a quiet quality.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Spoiler

 

[ckm]

A few years ago a friend of mine got into a fight when someone else said something bad about me. I don't know the details, I wasn't there. That's all I can think of.

I had a "clique" of six guys in high school. During our senior year, my best friend M. (a member of the group), came out of the closet. We had a homophobe in the group, who loudly and rudely degraded M.'s sexuality. I stood up for M., and I essentially cut off contact with the homophobe & 3 other guys. (The other three were weak, didn't feel strongly about it, and let the homophobe make the action/decision to cut M. out of our group.) I feel like I could have stood up for M. more.

M. & I are still really good friends, five years later. I'm glad that I sided with him-- he is orders of magnitude more awesome than the other four guys.

I don't know if this is heroic.

That is very touching; I would call it heroic. You followed what you believed in when it would have been easy to be another "weak" member of the group. I admire that very much - I wish I had the strength and courage to stand up against such injustices. If anyone ever did that for me, I would be eternally grateful.

Actually, that reminds me of one thing that might be seen as "heroic" that I did. I used to have a terrible relationship with my father - I hated him, basically. He's an alcoholic and at the time still on the bottle. He decided to go into rehab (it wasn't his first time), but when I heard about it I had an urge to come out to him. I contacted him myself, which I never normally did (he wasn't living with us) and asked him to pick me up (he had decided, but wasn't actually in rehab yet). I spent the best part of the day with him and told him just as he was dropping me back home. It went down well. According to my mother it had a pretty big affect on him. Anyway he went to rehab and he's dry now and living back at home. I'd like to think that my coming out to him helped him stick with it, but maybe I'm just stealing credit.