Are INTP's really INTP's?

[BigApplePi]

The nerve of some people trying to pass themselves off as INTP's. I've been trying to do that ever since I arrived here. Recently the other day someone came close to cursing me venturing to label me with the ENTP word. They were accusing me of being like just george who is a self-admitted ENTP. Me an ENTP? I scored 100 percent introverted on those tests.

Let's look at the comparison:
INTP = Ti Ne Si Fe;
ENTP = Ne Ti Fe Si.

Note the CF's (cognitive functions) are the same but reversed. There has to be some truth in this I admit. I'm on this Forum quite a bit. (More than some would wish no doubt.) I have a rather free opinion on a many topics (Ne). I usually scan first (Ne) then think about it (Ti) rather than the other way around. I have possibly improved my social ability (Fe) while rarely revealing my sensual data (Si). I conclude I behave as an ENTP on this board.

But that is far from how I behave IRL. Just the opposite. I shy away from people ... don't seek them out. I wait for them to come to me. I always am thinking first. I'm quite aware of my Si when I want to and do poorly on Fe. That's INTP ... unless I'm neglecting other cognitive functions.

Now what is the point here? The above says something about the MBTI test. Usually the puzzle is, which temperament of the 16 possibles am I? Here is a case where someone is at ease in one media situation under one type and also at ease under a quite different media environment. Does this apply to you? Family life? School life? Or am I the rare exception?

 

[Coolydudey]

I border on being an ENTP. I am *just about* introverted, but quite clearly so if you look over a long enough period of time. I also score near 100% on tests which ask questions with yes/no answers for introversion. It's because I have a clear introverted preference, which is however only slight.

 

[Grayman]

I think intp are more likely to express Ne in environments they feel safe. It is good of them to do so as it expands who they are.

 

[Pyropyro]

I think maturing greatly affects how INTP's express themselves. The cognitive functions stay the same but since the person has a better handle on how to use them then they can be expressed in different ways.

Probably the most dramatic change is caused by developing the Fe through social interactions and finally finding your life's focus. You won't defeat the NFs in pure Fe combat but you could at least express some of their traits.

 

[Jennywocky]

I think maturing greatly affects how INTP's express themselves. The cognitive functions stay the same but since the person has a better handle on how to use them then they can be expressed in different ways.

Probably the most dramatic change is caused by developing the Fe through social interactions and finally finding your life's focus. You won't defeat the NFs in pure Fe combat but you could at least express some of their traits.

^ Agreed.

 

[Brontosaurie]

"pure Fe combat" sounds as contradictory as "pure Fi logic" to me

care to elaborate?

 

[Jennywocky]

"pure Fe combat" sounds as contradictory as "pure Fi logic" to me

care to elaborate?

You're a big boy.

What would you GUESS it means?
(you know, like if you had to make your best guess)

 

[Brontosaurie]

You're a big boy.

What would you GUESS it means?
(you know, like if you had to make your best guess)

"big boy" sounds like "large lad" to me.

care to elaborate?

hmm it means, essentially, how good you are at using Fe? but why call it combat? there seems to be some additional meaning to it.

 

[TimeAsylums]

GUESS
...(make your best guess)

loool, not Ti's friend

you know how much I want to say this every time lol

 

[Jennywocky]

"big boy" sounds like "large lad" to me.

care to elaborate?

You have an amusing lexicon.
Are you a large lad?

hmm it means, essentially, how good you are at using Fe? but why call it combat? there seems to be some additional meaning to it.

Why call it anything? Lots of words are used to add flavor, it's just a word that was used for kicks and likely has no direct implications. And if he did call it combat, and you don't have any of it and don't care about it anyway, why waste all this energy nitpicking it?

So much energy, wasted for no real reason; so much drama, although I suppose that provides a few more minutes of forum entertainment.

loool, not Ti's friend

you know how much I want to say this every time lol

You Ne junkie.

 

[Brontosaurie]

Why call it anything? Lots of words are used to add flavor, it's just a word that was used for kicks and likely has no direct implications. And if he did call it combat, and you don't have any of it and don't care about it anyway, why waste all this energy nitpicking it?

So much energy, wasted for no real reason; so much drama, although I suppose that provides a few more minutes of forum entertainment.

i'm trying to extract information about the added flavor, not create drama. why would i post if i didn't care?

 

[Jennywocky]

i'm trying to extract information about the added flavor, not create drama. why would i post if i didn't care?

Well, you certainly don't have much Fe skillz then... It sounds much more like a pointed public callout than a gentle cherry-goo-centered Oprah moment.

bwa ha ha, from hell's heart I stab [Fe] at thee!

 

[Brontosaurie]

Well, you certainly don't have much Fe skillz then... It sounds much more like a pointed public callout than a gentle cherry-goo-centered Oprah moment.

bwa ha ha, from hell's heart I stab [Fe] at thee!

i like this place (or my mental representation of it) because Fe skillz are considered unnecessary in commonplace discourse. also it would be beyond even my retardedness to consider that question a public callout.

whatever.

on topic: if you're an Exxx introvert, does that mean social phobia or some other dysfunction or is MBTI extraversion compatible with common sense introversion?

 

[Jennywocky]

i like this place (or my mental representation of it) because Fe skillz are considered unnecessary in commonplace discourse. also it would be beyond even my retardedness to consider that question a public callout.

Was that another callout? My GOD, man...! You're laying waste to the forumz!!!!! *cries, runs home, sells the dachshund for weiners*

whatever.

*cough*

on topic: if you're an Exxx introvert, does that mean social phobia or some other dysfunction or is MBTI extraversion compatible with common sense introversion?

I think they're contradictory personally. You can rein in extroversion but it typically will come out -- according to MBTI, you think/live on the "outside," that's where you do your processing / focus yourself. Introverts naturally focus inside.

So I think an extrovert can aim themselves inside and introverts can aim themselves outside for a length of time, but it's naturally more draining for them, like you're fighting an instinct. It gets more taxing and they revert as energy diminishes.

I have definitely met extroverts, though, who are very "lowkey" extroverts. My one ENFJ here at work is that way, she almost can seem more like a friendly introvert, except she just happens to always be doing something with someone or going somewhere and seems to recharge by being in proximity to someone, she maintains that quieter but continual level of involvement with one of her myriad family or friends throughout her waking moments. I'm a friendly introvert, but that kills me if I do it too long regardless.

 

[Brontosaurie]

Was that another callout? My GOD, man...! You're laying waste to the forumz!!!!! *cries, runs home, sells the dachshund for weiners*

no just another lack of Fe skillz.

i get your interpretation, but it would be dumb to intend the question that way, seeing as it's so tangential.

I think they're contradictory personally. You can rein in extroversion but it typically will come out -- according to MBTI, you think/live on the "outside," that's where you do your processing / focus yourself. Introverts naturally focus inside.

So I think an extrovert can aim themselves inside and introverts can aim themselves outside for a length of time, but it's naturally more draining for them, like you're fighting an instinct. It gets more taxing and they revert as energy diminishes.

I have definitely met extroverts, though, who are very "lowkey" extroverts. My one ENFJ here at work is that way, she almost can seem more like a friendly introvert, except she just happens to always be doing something with someone or going somewhere and seems to recharge by being in proximity to someone, she maintains that quieter but continual level of involvement with one of her myriad family or friends throughout her waking moments. I'm a friendly introvert, but that kills me if I do it too long regardless.

we must distinguish between the test results and true type. the tests are poorly designed, and most people lack the self awareness to answer truthfully. true type is more of a theoretical, hypothetical thing at this point, afaict.

i wanted to avoid being self-centered but i need an example to explain this: i am clearly introverted in practice (even avoidant) yet highly dependant on external stimuli. dwelling/focusing on stuff seems pointless and when i do (which is most of the time) i feel bad. i would call myself an introverted ENTP. does that mean something is wrong or simply that my use of Ne doesn't focus on interaction and extraversion per se?

perhaps i'm biased by my extremely introverted circle of close friends.

 

[Jennywocky]

no just another lack of Fe skillz.

i get your interpretation, but it would be dumb to intend the question that way, seeing as it's so tangential.

So you've noticed that so far you've stated that my perception is "dumb" and "beyond your level of retardedness," among other things, in terms of how you've stated things. It just goes and goes and goes some more...

I'd hand you a shovel, but you dig so nicely with your tongue.

And yes, I'm laughing, and making a point, I'm not butt-hurt. I'm pickier with my words and am usually aware when they could be misread, so (and there goes all my excuses) if I say it, I do typically meant to say it that way, often with multiple meaning.

we must distinguish between the test results and true type. the tests are poorly designed, and most people lack the self awareness to answer truthfully. true type is more of a theoretical, hypothetical thing at this point, afaict.

To be hardcore, the only "real test results" are ones administered by trained personnel with official copies of the test. Then again, that costs money, so the layperson on the street typically has just self-reported their type through a hackneyed sorter.

And that's before we even discuss what a "true type" is since the 16 types are just arbitrary midpoints of the boxes comprising a 4x4 grid, and who says where somemone might fall even in a designated box?

we're basically taking a flat protractor with various shaped holes in it (without defining the angle of observation to begin with) and looking at a 3D person to define them. Wheee.

i wanted to avoid being self-centered but i need an example to explain this: i am clearly introverted in practice (even avoidant) yet highly dependant on external stimuli. dwelling/focusing on stuff seems pointless and when i do (which is most of the time) i feel bad. i would call myself an introverted ENTP. does that mean something is wrong or simply that my use of Ne doesn't focus on interaction and extraversion per se?

perhaps i'm biased by my extremely introverted circle of close friends.

Good example, and I don't have any answer to it at the moment. It's one of the complications. People just don't "sort" right, according to the theory. We all show various levels of all differents kinds of traits, and the theory tries to account for it... but not really. So people conjecture about it instead. From the outside, I would agree that you are pretty avoidant in nature and your approach to people; what makes you think you're an ENTP vs an ISTP or some other type, exactly?

 

[Grayman]

no just another lack of Fe skillz.

i get your interpretation, but it would be dumb to intend the question that way, seeing as it's so tangential.



we must distinguish between the test results and true type. the tests are poorly designed, and most people lack the self awareness to answer truthfully. true type is more of a theoretical, hypothetical thing at this point, afaict.

i wanted to avoid being self-centered but i need an example to explain this: i am clearly introverted in practice (even avoidant) yet highly dependant on external stimuli. dwelling/focusing on stuff seems pointless and when i do (which is most of the time) i feel bad. i would call myself an introverted ENTP. does that mean something is wrong or simply that my use of Ne doesn't focus on interaction and extraversion per se?

perhaps i'm biased by my extremely introverted circle of close friends.

What stuff do you dwell on and why do you feel bad?

 

[Pyropyro]

"pure Fe combat" sounds as contradictory as "pure Fi logic" to me

care to elaborate?

It's just a figure of speech about our Fe skills (or lack thereof)
Although come to think of it, feelings can cause people to do violent stuff

 

[Grayman]

It's just a figure of speech about our Fe skills (or lack thereof)
Although come to think of it, feelings can cause people to do violent stuff

Do we have to have the people kill people, emotions don't kill people debate again.

We should be able to carry our emotions concieled. It's part of the constitution.

 

[Brontosaurie]

So you've noticed that so far you've stated that my perception is "dumb" and "beyond your level of retardedness," among other things, in terms of how you've stated things. It just goes and goes and goes some more...

I'd hand you a shovel, but you dig so nicely with your tongue.

And yes, I'm laughing, and making a point, I'm not butt-hurt. I'm pickier with my words and am usually aware when they could be misread, so (and there goes all my excuses) if I say it, I do typically meant to say it that way, often with multiple meaning.

yes, i noticed. didn't occur to me when i first wrote that. anyway i meant only that it would be dumber than i am to intend that marginal question as a tactical offensive maneuver. for the receiver or some third party to interpret it as one, on the other hand, may be warranted if congruent with overall perception of my character.

that being said i don't get why you're on your toes about this. trying to teach me something?

To be hardcore, the only "real test results" are ones administered by trained personnel with official copies of the test. Then again, that costs money, so the layperson on the street typically has just self-reported their type through a hackneyed sorter.

And that's before we even discuss what a "true type" is since the 16 types are just arbitrary midpoints of the boxes comprising a 4x4 grid, and who says where somemone might fall even in a designated box?

we're basically taking a flat protractor with various shaped holes in it (without defining the angle of observation to begin with) and looking at a 3D person to define them. Wheee.

i have no experience with pro MBTI tests but i doubt their accuracy, provided the online test items and linear score calculations are any indication.

demarcation problems aren't MBTI specific. that's another issue.

yeah, we must define the angle better. using a reductive matrix isn't wrong per se. depends on what we're particularly interested in. we just need to make sure we don't see typology as something exhaustive and final.

Good example, and I don't have any answer to it at the moment. It's one of the complications. People just don't "sort" right, according to the theory. We all show various levels of all differents kinds of traits, and the theory tries to account for it... but not really. So people conjecture about it instead. From the outside, I would agree that you are pretty avoidant in nature and your approach to people; what makes you think you're an ENTP vs an ISTP or some other type, exactly?

Ne and Si are pretty obvious. i suck at Se oriented tasks, such as being aware of my material surroundings, coordinating movements in accordance with continuous sensory input, and picking up contemporary social cues. also i suck at Ni, judging by my poor ability to extrapolate on ideas in isolation and lack of definite conviction. rather i actively interpret everything in terms of ideas and connections (Ne) and then store incidents, episodes; specific data (Si). this storage is unreliable and largely beyond control and i experience incapacitating bouts of hopeless nostalgia. i conclude that Si is a weakness, and also an attractor to the extent where i sometimes feel like life can only be lived in retrospect.

It's just a figure of speech about our Fe skills (or lack thereof)
Although come to think of it, feelings can cause people to do violent stuff

ok.

maybe there's a good spin-off discussion about whether Fe can be hostile and if so, what distinguishes this from Te hostility.

 

[Pyropyro]

Do we have to have the people kill people, emotions don't kill people debate again.

We should be able to carry our emotions concieled. It's part of the constitution.

That would be a long story but I guess that debate should belong to another thread.

ok.

maybe there's a good spin-off discussion about whether Fe can be hostile and if so, what distinguishes this from Te hostility.

That would be interesting. I'm not that familiar with Te so perhaps I can learn much from that discussion.

 

[BigApplePi]

Thank you all for your responses.* I was trying to get at something that's always bothered me. That's why I made this thread. Hadn't been able to quite get at the concept I wish to fight over ... and fight over in my head I do. It goes like this:

We talk of INTP's. This is an INTP forum. It's called "INTP Forum." The question is: What does it mean when we say, "I am an INTP?" After all, socally this matters. People come here asking if they are one. People come here and say they are not one, but find themselves in a strange land full of thinkers who inevitably influence feelers to think. Only the most feeling of the feelers (a gentleman like L who is sabbaticalizing ***) can resist.

There are those who resist using analogies to solve a problem. I think analogies a great tool because they can be used to transfer or translate ideas via abstraction. Here is an analogy: I am 5 feet 10 inches tall. Do you agree? Yeah sure. Then how tall am I when I sit down? When I stand in a box? Answer: Convention says I'm still 5' 10". But this 5'10" is not necessarily the natural position. It only works when one is all stretched out**. How often during the day are you like that? One can't argue it is the most stimulating length. How many of you prefer being all stretched out to sitting? One can argue I am not 5'10" when sitting. I am not 5'10" when standing on a box. I feel perfectly natural about it. It is not an inferior function.

We can argue the same way with "being an INTP" because certain cognitive functions operate one way when in a certain environment. They can operate naturally another way in another environment. Being 5'10" is of little consequence when sitting.

So if you think you are an INTP and feel that way half the time but behave like an INFP the other half time and feel comfortable, what are you? Answer: temperament is environmentally related. You have both temperaments and are simply temperamental.

*My computer services have been down and continue to be flaky.
**Standing
***L can't do a search and find I'm talking about him. All least not from me.

 

[Grayman]

Thank you all for your responses.* I was trying to get at something that's always bothered me. That's why I made this thread. Hadn't been able to quite get at the concept I wish to fight over ... and fight over in my head I do. It goes like this:

We talk of INTP's. This is an INTP forum. It's called "INTP Forum." The question is: What does it mean when we say, "I am an INTP?" After all, socally this matters. People come here asking if they are one. People come here and say they are not one, but find themselves in a strange land full of thinkers who inevitably influence feelers to think. Only the most feeling of the feelers (a gentleman like L who is sabbaticalizing ***) can resist.

There are those who resist using analogies to solve a problem. I think analogies a great tool because they can be used to transfer or translate ideas via abstraction. Here is an analogy: I am 5 feet 10 inches tall. Do you agree? Yeah sure. Then how tall am I when I sit down? When I stand in a box? Answer: Convention says I'm still 5' 10". But this 5'10" is not necessarily the natural position. It only works when one is all stretched out**. How often during the day are you like that? One can't argue it is the most stimulating length. How many of you prefer being all stretched out to sitting? One can argue I am not 5'10" when sitting. I am not 5'10" when standing on a box. I feel perfectly natural about it. It is not an inferior function.

We can argue the same way with "being an INTP" because certain cognitive functions operate one way when in a certain environment. They can operate naturally another way in another environment. Being 5'10" is of little consequence when sitting.

So if you think you are an INTP and feel that way half the time but behave like an INFP the other half time and feel comfortable, what are you? Answer: temperament is environmentally related. You have both temperaments and are simply temperamental.

*My computer services have been down and continue to be flaky.
**Standing
***L can't do a search and find I'm talking about him. All least not from me.

Potential is often the threshold for measurement. Your greatest potential resides at 5 10". You function at your greatest potential as an INTP.

 

[BigApplePi]

Potential is often the threshold for measurement. Your greatest potential resides at 5 10". You function at your greatest potential as an INTP.

The tallest potential resides at 5'10". Sitting has nothing to do with being tall. Sitting does something else to excel at.

Thinking has to do with making sure things are accurate ... or something like that. That has nothing to do with evaluating what's important. I can decide which I want to do and do whatever I want to do whenever I want to do it. That has me excelling or failing at both if I want to. If you catch me doing one more than the other, am I going to be rated accordingly on that whim?

 

[Jennywocky]

maybe there's a good spin-off discussion about whether Fe can be hostile and if so, what distinguishes this from Te hostility.

Sounds like you haven't visited the Deep South in USA. One of the beauties of Fe down there is how hostile/scathing it can be while sounding perfectly benign.

 

[Grayman]

The tallest potential resides at 5'10". Sitting has nothing to do with being tall. Sitting does something else to excel at.

Thinking has to do with making sure things are accurate ... or something like that. That has nothing to do with evaluating what's important. I can decide which I want to do and do whatever I want to do whenever I want to do it. That has me excelling or failing at both if I want to. If you catch me doing one more than the other, am I going to be rated accordingly on that whim?

What if Te and Fe are the same; Ti and Fi are the same except there is a sliding rule of how strong your emotions are. If it is, then it would be more equivalent to saying you are an emotional person or you are not. Infp equals a person who is more often emotional than the intp who is more often robotic. Are there people closer in the middle?

 

[BigApplePi]

What if Te and Fe are the same; Ti and Fi are the same except there is a sliding rule of how strong your emotions are. If it is, then it would be more equivalent to saying you are an emotional person or you are not. Infp equals a person who is more often emotional than the intp who is more often robotic. Are there people closer in the middle?

"Ti and Fi are the same except ... ." It sounds like a good theory to propose that Tx and Fx are the same. But does it work in practice? Are not T and F both said to be judgemental functions? If so, are people going to be motivated to straddle the line ... an invisible one at that?

When we think about something and form a judgment, we don't want feelings about the content to interfere. This is different from the unconscious feeling about the right to think at all. When we feel something as a directive, that is have a judgment about it, this overrides thinking and thought goes to the unconscious. This is different from a feeler who thinks they have the right to feel the way they do. If am right about the above, feeling and thinking tend toward polarization. Therefore they will not be equal.

However I'm ready to entertain any example which disproves this. Here are some supporting examples of my own:

(1) Te and Fe. I say 2+3+5. My thinking is strong about this. My feeling, on the other hand is all over the place. They will be high if a five year old wants to challenge this; low for everyone else.

(2) Ti and Fi. I have thoughts that certain things may be true enough to carry weight. But my feelings are all over the place: not caring, caring because I'm vain, feelings of ambivalence, etc. It would be a big stretch to say those feelings equal my thoughts of true/not true.

Here is a simplification: For Tx and Fx, one of those must be unconscious. Any unconscious function is not cognitive and will end up being all over the place, determined by unconscious forces. A T person will want to deliberately keep T conscious; An F person will want to deliberately keep F conscious thereby rendering the other one to lower priority, not equal priority.

 

[Grayman]

Here is a simplification: ...

I don't know because if a Ti and Fi can do math equally as well then would they not be just the same in strength for thinking? Emotion cannot do math. You seemed to be alluding to the specific strengths of each being situational, and I have been having the same issues.

As far as unconscious Fi. I am not aware of any such thing. I know when I am being mislead by my emotions but sometimes I cannot logically invalidate the emotion to keep it from doing what it wants to do. It's got be by the nose leading and my Ti says I don't see why not.

 

[BigApplePi]

I don't know because if a Ti and Fi can do math equally as well then would they not be just the same in strength for thinking? Emotion cannot do math. You seemed to be alluding to the specific strengths of each being situational, and I have been having the same issues.

Umm. This is a toughie. Off hand I'd say emotion can do math ... as a high motivator. A leading Fi person would have Te as their inferior function ... or so goes the theory. So why couldn't a smart enough Fi be able to excel? If they do lead with Fi, I'd say not many would do math.

As far as unconscious Fi. I am not aware of any such thing. I know when I am being mislead by my emotions but sometimes I cannot logically invalidate the emotion to keep it from doing what it wants to do. It's got be by the nose leading and my Ti says I don't see why not.

I didn't mean to mislead, but there is no such thing as an unconscious CF. Unconscious functions are not cognitive.

Gotcha I think. When feelings do come to consciousness, they are Fi. Your Ti may say, "okay. I go with them", but the Ti won't understand them. You just said you are being led or misled. That Ti judgment is not the same as the Fi content. The Fi content is conscious. The origin of the feelings is unconscious and your Ti doesn't "get it." Am I making any sense?

 

[Grayman]

Umm. This is a toughie. Off hand I'd say emotion can do math ... as a high motivator. A leading Fi person would have Te as their inferior function ... or so goes the theory. So why couldn't a smart enough Fi be able to excel? If they do lead with Fi, I'd say not many would do math.


I didn't mean to mislead, but there is no such thing as an unconscious CF. Unconscious functions are not cognitive.

Gotcha I think. When feelings do come to consciousness, they are Fi. Your Ti may say, "okay. I go with them", but the Ti won't understand them. You just said you are being led or misled. That Ti judgment is not the same as the Fi content. The Fi content is conscious. The origin of the feelings is unconscious and your Ti doesn't "get it." Am I making any sense?

I need to think on this.

 

[not]

I have definitely met extroverts, though, who are very "lowkey" extroverts. My one ENFJ here at work is that way, she almost can seem more like a friendly introvert, except she just happens to always be doing something with someone or going somewhere and seems to recharge by being in proximity to someone, she maintains that quieter but continual level of involvement with one of her myriad family or friends throughout her waking moments. I'm a friendly introvert, but that kills me if I do it too long regardless.

Was married to an ENFJ. This is highly accurate description. Low key, but still will suck the life force right out of an introvert. Kind of slides right up in there like another introvert, can carry on like an introvert, all the while draining you of your precious energy. I think the ENFJ loves to be in a group of introverts... (so much life force to steal!)

 

[Grayman]

@not
@pi

Not, I don't want to put you on the spot but I want to describe a mental process and a most recent example is fresh and easily remembered.

What happens in my mind makes me seem off topic and can make me feel a little out in the head. This is all an intuitive feeling and not real but I feel like it is and I try all the time to convince myself these things are false. Here goes me making a fool of myself.

My intuition works as an image like a silent movie and emotion. Reading not's post above and then reading his thread I perceived his wife and him arguing, she belittles him and he feels a need to vent. He makes a thread and fills it in and feels a little better when done. At this point I felt he needed a little reassurance so you then see my post below that. I felt that he would like to know that there is more worth in him than what his wife has been expecting of him socially and job or career wise. Even this seems bland in comparison to what I felt and had seen in the vision.

I could even go back and explain how I came up with this but that answer comes after the vision itself.

Most of this was feeling and emotion and intuition. When at work, in non social nviroments I get the same burst of images. If I am trying to figure out why a machine does not work I get mental images of electrical circuits and I can feel the electrical energy in my vision. I usually get the "how did you think of that, statement" when the machine or computer is fixed by some random insight I had. I'm much better with machines because you can have false insights and then try again. People are not so quick to give you multiple shots at perceiving them. They usually don't like to see what you're thinking of them.

The problem is that since my intuition is imagry , I have enormous difficulty explaining it in words. Start adding the feelings to my explanation and it is impossible to convey these thoughts.

So am I to trust these insights? I tried before and I got bit me twice when I followed them on this forum. It is probably my imagination run amuck.

 

[HsinHsin]

I like you, BigApplePi.
I don't care what type you are.

 

[BigApplePi]

You don't care? Please consult with my enemies and come up with a consensus.

P.S. If I knew you I would like you. I know that.

 

[Grayman]

@pi

I guess I am trying to say that I have NeFe experiences and NeTi experiences. I don't trust my NeFe experiences so I feel INTP. Maybe its more NiFe? Whatever it is I don't trust it but if I did, would I be INFJ? Does Fe equal the idea that I know what people are feeling? It is almost as if I 'feel' how they feel better than I often feel myself. INTP have Fe...

I did not think it possible to have NiFe and TiNe

 

[not]

@not
@pi

Not, I don't want to put you on the spot but I want to describe a mental process and a most recent example is fresh and easily remembered.

What happens in my mind makes me seem off topic and can make me feel a little out in the head. This is all an intuitive feeling and not real but I feel like it is and I try all the time to convince myself these things are false. Here goes me making a fool of myself.

My intuition works as an image like a silent movie and emotion. Reading not's post above and then reading his thread I perceived his wife and him arguing, she belittles him and he feels a need to vent. He makes a thread and fills it in and feels a little better when done. At this point I felt he needed a little reassurance so you then see my post below that. I felt that he would like to know that there is more worth in him than what his wife has been expecting of him socially and job or career wise. Even this seems bland in comparison to what I felt and had seen in the vision.

I could even go back and explain how I came up with this but that answer comes after the vision itself.

Most of this was feeling and emotion and intuition. When at work, in non social nviroments I get the same burst of images. If I am trying to figure out why a machine does not work I get mental images of electrical circuits and I can feel the electrical energy in my vision. I usually get the "how did you think of that, statement" when the machine or computer is fixed by some random insight I had. I'm much better with machines because you can have false insights and then try again. People are not so quick to give you multiple shots at perceiving them. They usually don't like to see what you're thinking of them.

The problem is that since my intuition is imagry , I have enormous difficulty explaining it in words. Start adding the feelings to my explanation and it is impossible to convey these thoughts.

So am I to trust these insights? I tried before and I got bit me twice when I followed them on this forum. It is probably my imagination run amuck.

I don't think your intuitions are false, but I find in my personal life it very difficult to explain my intuitions to other people. You have to realize that words are just symbols to convey ideas. These symbols are not sufficient, but it is the best we have come up with to date. Because these are symbols of ideas rather than actual ideas, each person seeing the symbol must translate the symbol into an idea and this is where the trouble comes in. Not everyone sees the translation in the same way. I notice with you that you assume that people will understand what you have written so you write your ideas down with very little information. We had a conversation after that and your intuition was right, my wife belittled the shit out of me all the time... But, what you wrote was,

"Is this personal value yours or your wife's?"

This was not enough information for me to understand what you were asking. Who's value? Etc... So my brain tried to process your symbols with not enough information and I answered the question the best I could and it was not the answer you were looking for. Now my second post after that was not directed to you, but was a general post to those that might be interested, but it was a continued thought sparked by your question.

To sum up, trust your intuitions, but if you want to communicate ideas to other people, assume that they have no frame of reference. Build the frame of reference.

 

[Grayman]

Build the frame of reference.

Thank you Not! It is comforting when you are told your thoughts are somewhat sensible. You are absolutely right about how I convey information. I expect people to know what I am talking about and I think that it is because for me it is so real. I will work on this. Your advice fits so well with what my family has told me in the past. Eventually they learned how to translate what I say except my dad who is a Dom Si.

 

[not]

I have the exact opposite problem. The people around me complain that I talk down to them like they are children because I underestimate their ability to comprehend. I am always caught off guard when someone says to me, "You know, I'm not 10 years old, you don't have to belittle me." - All I can think is, "you really have no idea what it means to be belittled, let me introduce you to my ex-wife!"

We will always run into communication problems. Best to plan for them and work through them. Your intuitions are not the problem so don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

 

[BigApplePi]

@pi

I guess I am trying to say that I have NeFe experiences and NeTi experiences. I don't trust my NeFe experiences so I feel INTP. Maybe its more NiFe? Whatever it is I don't trust it but if I did, would I be INFJ? Does Fe equal the idea that I know what people are feeling? It is almost as if I 'feel' how they feel better than I often feel myself. INTP have Fe...

I did not think it possible to have NiFe and TiNe

Keep at it. This is confusing, isn't it? I believe higs has a thread out there, MBTII re-mastered, which may take us somewhere. Meanwhile
what bothers me is I am biased and want to call you "INTP" because I see that. Problem is I see it everywhere so have to be suspicious of self-projection.

You mentioned Ni. Ni is not ordinarily conscious in an INTP. But it can come to the surface. It does for me (it's like a hunch) and not to be trusted. Those who lead with Ni are different. They push HARD with their intuition making it their main persona. Call it Ni heavy. For an INTP, Ni is always Ni lite. For me it might be Ti that turns up this "Ni." On experiencing it I must search around for better intuition. That's Ne! A poor Ni is supported by a good ol' reliable Ne. Without Ne to help, my Ti would go somewhere and hide.

Fe would be able to read other's feelings as long as attention is paid. I don't see why an INTP can't specialize in thoughts about feeling. That is different from a person whose very nature is to overtly feel right up front. You are not doing that in your message IMO. Instead you are thinking about it giving the appearance of leading with T. Yet an INFP can think. It's their inferior function.

Let me say something about myself and see if it helps. I can see how other people are feeling. I probably can see that very well. I don't like to admit it though. Why? Because I selfishly lead with thinking. I will deliberately ignore other people's feelings if I want to make some point. Of course that is bad Fe. If I sense I'm getting into trouble I will try to modify whatever I said that was offensive to coordinate with how the other party feels. If they get mad, though, it may be too late and feelings become the theme over thought content.

To add to that, you may see on some thread I try to help a person in trouble. I do that if I have some idea I can help ... something I see they missed. I like to do that because it's a heavy thinking process. I call that thinking about feeling. It doesn't mean I'm using Fi*. It's Fe instead.

*I take that back. I have an Fi morality. If I feel I'm helping somebody I imagine feel that's good. I don't use this Fi to pound on somebody if it's going to permanently harm them**. That would be bad. I can make mistakes though and we can write that off as bad Fe.

**We do that to weaken our enemies.

 

[Grayman]

Keep at it. This is confusing, isn't it? I believe higs has a thread out there, MBTII re-mastered, which may take us somewhere.

How you described Fe seems to fit really well. Yes the Ne is there and the Thinking and then the Fe.

So what is your confusion in light of this to the 5' 10" analogy? It may help if I have something personal to compare it to.

 

[BigApplePi]

How you described Fe seems to fit really well. Yes the Ne is there and the Thinking and then the Fe.

So what is your confusion in light of this to the 5' 10" analogy? It may help if I have something personal to compare it to.

This is my current thinking. Not sure if I'm capturing anything new here.

The 5'10" analogy says we are not our height all the time. Our height is where we will always be if we stop to look under special conditions. So it is with our temperament. Our temperament is where we will be most of the time or where we will be under stable environmental conditions. However when we undergo changes in environment or changes in motivations, and the circumstances change, I propose a different temperament can come out which deals with those circumstances more easily and effectively.

My life is such that off internet I'm an introvert. It could be that if my life had developed differently I would be more outgoing after an introverted period where I developed myself. But such is not the case. On the internet I've developed over the years and can be more outgoing. But if things changed, I would retreat again.

One can argue against this and say, "That's just Fe." Well yes. But what do you call it during the time Fe dominates? Isn't that like standing on a box where I'm 6'8? Or sitting down where I'm 4'2"?

 

[not]

I get what you are saying. I am naturally better at communicating on the internet because I have the necessary time to sit, contemplate what I want to say, and then word it in a way that is constructive. This is my natural tendency and it is easier to manifest in the medium that we call internet. Conversely, I have a difficult time communicating in an extroverted social setting because I find it hard to think out loud. When someone asks me a question, I have to think about what I want to say before I say it. This becomes socially awkward for the extrovert who never thinks internally, but has the ability to think out loud. - I wouldn't consider myself extroverted on the internet, but that the medium of 'internet' is easier for me to communicate in.

 

[Grayman]

My life is such that off internet I'm an introvert. It could be that if my life had developed differently I would be more outgoing after an introverted period where I developed myself. But such is not the case. On the internet I've developed over the years and can be more outgoing. But if things changed, I would retreat again.

One can argue against this and say, "That's just Fe." Well yes. But what do you call it during the time Fe dominates? Isn't that like standing on a box where I'm 6'8? Or sitting down where I'm 4'2"?

So this is what I got so far. You recognized that even when I thought I was using my Fe it was still skewed by my Ti. Recently was talking to someone thinking I was feeling for them and the comment made was how well I intellectually tackled the issue. So I would assume that even when I am using Fe and I recognize it I don't recognize my Dom Ti. Ti never leaves except in extreme conditions so why would I notice it's presence? It is like breathing, you don't notice the breaths you took all day until something happens to disrupt the process or you suddenly decide to look for it. The point is that I am always Dom Ti except in unhealthy and stressful conditions. You seem to be the same but I don't know if you think you have been Fe Dom on this forum but I noticed always a Ti Dom, Fe approach.

 

[BigApplePi]

I am always Dom Ti except in unhealthy and stressful conditions. You seem to be the same but I don't know if you think you have been Fe Dom on this forum but I noticed always a Ti Dom, Fe approach.

That is well put. How about being Fe in a sea of Ti? Under stress, jumping out of the sea and blowing the Ti away? That has happened to me*.

Control is an issue. If one uses a skill to get along in this world, be it any of the CF's, one can live by that skill. But it has its limits. Then one goes to the inferior or tertiary function.

One COULD develop that lessor skill, but perhaps that is unlikely and likely to be very uncomfortable. It would be like a carpenter becoming a plumber, a theoretical physicist driving a cab, a Christian converting to Islam, a child going through adolescence, or a boy becoming a girl.

*I regretted it because I was tried for murder, zapped in an electric chair, and passed on thereby interrupting the transmission of this message.

 

[Mmmmmmmmmm]

I think intp are more likely to express Ne in environments they feel safe. It is good of them to do so as it expands who they are.

exactly.

 

[Grayman]

*I regretted it because I was tried for murder, zapped in an electric chair, and passed on thereby interrupting the transmission of this message.

You have made a comment in the past of being in jail and then a comment of being with your wife outside of jail.

The jail stuff seems to be a figurative speech in light of the time you spent with your wife. Why the attraction to jail if it is figurative? Do you feel confined in your life? Is there something you want more? Or is confinement the simply the vision of what you fear the most?

 

[BigApplePi]

You have made a comment in the past of being in jail and then a comment of being with your wife outside of jail.

The jail stuff seems to be a figurative speech in light of the time you spent with your wife. Why the attraction to jail if it is figurative? Do you feel confined in your life? Is there something you want more? Or is confinement the simply the vision of what you fear the most?

The jail comment is a metaphor. You are very observant as your intuition has picked up something about me. Yes I feel confined. There are things I would like to do that I don't seem able to do. Some are personal enough I wouldn't be ready to post here, but here are examples. BTW I'm not alone in this as I'll bet a good many have this frustration and some have posted about this in a much stronger form on this Forum.

I would like an ease to make friends on the outside but don't have that. Extroverts do. I would like to go with someone to an art museum and have them explain everything. But I can't do that. I actually had that chance with an artist friend a few years ago but he left town. We went to the Met in NYC, he went to his favorite place and explained a painting or so or tried to. Unfortunately I am so slow I have to let what he said sink in (Si & Ti compatibility) so I couldn't ask him Q's. I couldn't make a friend out of him. I am stupid that way. I would need 2 or 3 such trips to get in the swing of things. Later I had the courage to invite him running in Central Park. He did so but like a date with a girl that didn't work out. Anything strike any bells here? Anyone else reading this?

Here is another example. A neighbor four houses down passed by asking me if he could hunt deer with his bow and arrow around my house. I got rational and qualifying and said okay in a certain area. I even mentioned hunting together and he seemed agreeable. But I haven't seen his truck so maybe he was put off by my "thinking type personality." Now here is a perfect opportunity for an extrovert. An extrovert would go over to his house and ask how was he doing. Did he get to hunt? But I kept rationalizing why I wouldn't do that. I can still do it, but is hunting season over? I don't really have a good reason for not finding him and being friendly. Instead I stay here trying to catch up on recorded movies and other stuff.

 

[Grayman]

...An extrovert would go over to his house and ask how was he doing. Did he get to hunt? But I kept rationalizing why I wouldn't do that. I can still do it, but is hunting season over? I don't really have a good reason for not finding him and being friendly. Instead I stay here trying to catch up on recorded movies and other stuff.

Yes there are other people who have this issue and there is someone who is reading this who deals with this. It is I. There was a time that socializing was torturous but at the same time I desired it. There was nothing but doubts and concerns while spending time with people. I could not let go and simply be there and let them see me for real. I put up a wall that kept them out. Sure I had ideas of what to say and to talk about as I am sure you do, but the time it takes to processes and validate those ideas leads you into two situations. One is that you miss the opportunity in your pondering. The other is that you invalidate every thought your have to give and have nothing to say. Are invalid thoughts worth saying? Yes, those thoughts are yours and they are important. That is the point. It is about getting to know you and who you are even if I do not agree with your point of view it is important because it is yours. Fear not that I would get angry or think low of you.

I have dealt with my confines greatly at the beginning. I confined myself in my own prison. What are the bars? What makes the prison so strong and inescapable? You validate your prison and make it stronger by assuming that the reason is that you are incapable of communicating and that you need to work on yourself(functions, ideas, abilities) in order to be sociable. The prison bars become like iron when you view yourself as inefficient instead of realizing the truth. Those bars are there because you feed your fears. You feed the idea that you are inadequate. You then excuse the fear and give it tools of denial by making excuses for them. The greatest excuses are that you are inadequate or that you will be illrecieved. Sure there is room to be better but it would be false to assume that you are inadequate.

The truth is that the fear is not worth fearing. The natural instinct of fear, that is real and occurring, is to run away. The natural instinct of fear, that may happen, is to avoid it. So we avoid socializing. We avoid telling people our true and deepest thoughts. We protect ourselves from judgment and misunderstanding.

In your case the fear of what may come of socializing only seems real. It is a fear of what may happen. The fear that is real is that you are in that prison. Which fear should you listen to? The fear that is real or the fear that may be?

 

[BigApplePi]

I've thought this over and have an idea of what's behind this "prison." Of course everyone is different and it's different for everyone so each of us has to look at ourselves. In the case of my neighbor and going hunting with him, here are my thoughts:

I'm so eager to set up sociability I've forgotten about its opposite: privacy. What if this guy asks me all sorts of Qs about myself? What if he turns out to be an extrovert or a lonely introvert and wants to involve me in things I'm not ready for? I'm not ready for him. My unconscious tells me I'm not a people person. So my only interest would be a superficial hunting experience and leave and I'd want to wiggle out of anything else. I don't like to reject people. I'd be faced with that ... an unpleasant experience.

I wonder how many people here identify with this? A true extrovert would have no problem with this. They are able to go from person to person without a guilty conscience. Here on this Forum it's easy. The pressure we put on others here to act is quite limited. It isn't that it isn't there, it's that it's limited.

 

[Grayman]

My unconscious tells me I'm not a people person. So my only interest would be a superficial hunting experience and leave and I'd want to wiggle out of anything else. I don't like to reject people. I'd be faced with that ... an unpleasant experience.

That avoidance of an unpleasant experience is caused by fear. Small and subtle. Does your subconcious present you with the idea of failure strong and present? Is it worth listening? Is the risk worth a chance to lessen the bars of the prison? Is the risk worth the chance of a new friend? What are you risking but an unpleasant experience? Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Why would you feel the need to reject and what about it makes you feel guilty. For me I felt guilty and now I don't. The guilt existed because I was denying myself, not them.