AoE 1

[seabass]

Hello,

Am new to this forum.
I like to play AoE 1 the original although I'm not very good since I can only seem to beat the AI.

Wondering if anyone is interested in playing once in a while and also sharing saved games as scenarios for the roleplaying element. I have one game saved right now for example, one with a cool storyline.

There's an online gaming network called Voobly that you can play multiplayer on but I always get my ass beat because they're locked in on a formula and I get smoked.

 

[Hadoblado]

Hi there (and welcome!).

I don't really have the time or inclination for an AoE date with you. However, I like games and how they work. I'm decent at RTS, I enjoy figuring out the 'formula', and particularly the ways that it's impacted by shifting circumstances. My role on this forum is of janitor, but I've got another forum for a space-age RTS that I'm really prolific on with the theory-crafting. It's my hobby.

To me it seems really weird that you want to play RTS for the roleplaying element? Can you expand upon that idea for me? Do you have any interest at all in being competitive? I might be polarised in the sense that I rarely enjoy even the campaigns, being drawn by competition alone. If you're interested in roleplay, is multiplayer just a way to be social within that roleplay (i.e. why would you prefer a person and not an AI?). I guess I'm interested in your alien mindset

 

[seabass]

I am interested in becoming competitive yes. However like I said the multiplayer community online is far beyond my ability. If you're curious as you've indicated then I'd be happy to elaborate.

They always start from the stone age with more players and a town hall, which has a strictly defined success formula. It completely obliterates the roleplaying element in my mind because if you can't get the first seven moves right you lose before you start playing. When I play, I prefer to start from "Nomad" or a single peasant. Additionally, they often play with the map fully revealed and therefore they can target strategic points especially with food collection. Of course I'm not saying it isn't fair, but I just don't like it.

That being said, the AI in this game has an impressive learning curve and improves with time. I can't beat it on "hardest" 1v1 but very close.

And for the alien mindset... I'll describe it here:

1.0 - You send v1 for 30 lumber, v2/3/4 for food, v1 for a house, v3 helps build it, v2 gets on lumber, v1 and v3 get on food over here.....etc etc. Tool Age in 8 min or you suck Bronze in 15 or you suck etc etc.

Intermission - was just given the news (while typing) a lady I know is pregnant so I guess there won't be much AoE in my future after all.

To wrap this up -

Imagine instead you are the king of a small tribe who has been sent to conquer some contested area, be it at land or sea. You have certain strengths, weaknesses, societal values, morality, etc. You don't like to witness the unnecessary death or suffering of your people. Your city is planned aesthetically for function, defense, and the public well-being. Your skills of developing economic, military, and diplomatic operations is the formula for success, not your ability to memorize and implement a series of twelve strict procedures. That turns humans into AI as far as I am concerned, just a very excellent one, but artificial nonetheless.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Seems me that you'd enjoy "build-mode" or "cooperative" strategies a lot more. Where there isn't any built-in reward for destroying whatever the other player's got up.

I'm thinking about optionally competitive turn-based strategy-rpg's like crusader kings, Rome:Total War, EU universalis, heroes, the settlers, anno series.

AoE only ever offers a very superficial level of abstract simulation, it doesn't even modestly attempt to emulate the society or politics, it's designed to reward conflict and only really considers armed confrontation as a viable path to victory (wonder and relic are literally braindeath as you watch the countdown). It's chiefly tactical and precise about its management and execution aspects.


I'm making this comment mostly because I've played AoE with my brother and after I mined ALL of the resources from the map and approached his aesthetically pleasing city with hordes of highest tech armies he complained that he didn't have enough time to enjoy the "building up" after I gave him 4 hours. Anyway, he's playing Anno now and finds it much more up his alley.

If you wish to play vs AI, I recommend AoE 2 with custom AI mods, you'll notice, if you haven't already, that AI in AoE 1 stops growing and freezes in its progress, it will send a few waves of attacks and after it uses all of its gold it won't sell wood or food and will meekly wait for the killing blow. It's not a particularly great feat to exploit such things, go turtle mode and beat 7 AI opponents.

 

[seabass]

When you play chess against an inexperienced player, let me ask you,

do you repeatedly beat him as quickly, decisively, and forcefully as possible? That is the point of the game after all. I mean, he'll never learn how to castle or apply the en passant rule, he may never even use his queen, but fuck gollly he'll get his ass beat over and over until he learns pawn configurations.

IS that the point of the game?

 

[Hadoblado]

Ah right.

I've got some experience with AoE, especially AoEII. I don't play anymore because I can't stand the 20 minute eco buildup at start (same reason I stopped SCII). I too liked nomad more, just because you actually made decisions in the first 20 min.

A lady you know is pregnant and that's going to stop you playing AoE? Congratulations?

I guess it just seems strange to me that you'd play AoE. It's not a particularly apt medium for any roleplaying/simulation/base building expression. I would guess games such as civilization, banished, dwarf fortress, crusader kings, endless legend, rimworld, rise of nations, and stronghold crusaders would be better to scratch that itch?

Currently I play a game called zero-k. It's a TA remake - giant death robots etc. It's not much for roleplay, but it's free, and your build order is always dynamic/adaptive. It's worth giving a try if you want to play something competitive without having to memorise buildorders.

Edit: Yep you a dad now. NVM!

 

[seabass]

lol well it threw me for a whirl because i was literally typing about computer games when i got some news.

thanks for the suggestions about other games to play.
As you can tell I'm not very good but enjoy them nonetheless so I'll try some of the others. war2 was always a favorite of mine and I guess haven't branched out much.

I suppose you're right it is a bit strange to want to play a game that's 20 years old and by all rights boring as hell.

 

[Hadoblado]

Nah there's good aspects in there, as well as a crapton of nostalgia value. AoE is still my exemplar for procedurally generated maps in competitive rts. Alas, it doesn't result in quite as much variety as I'd like, but oh well. With a bit of tweaking I think that the AoE formula could be great again (though I'm not entirely sure what I'd tweak).

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

(...)
IS that the point of the game?

Let me reply with a question then.
Do you expect your opponents, who are complete strangers and who spend all of their game-time trying to get even better, to play teaching games with you instead of playing to win?

 

[seabass]

Let me reply with a question then.
Do you expect your opponents, who are complete strangers and who spend all of their game-time trying to get even better, to play teaching games with you instead of playing to win?

No.

This is why I'm petitioning a different community to play casual games.

Thanks for asking.

 

[seabass]

With a bit of tweaking I think that the AoE formula could be great again (though I'm not entirely sure what I'd tweak).

Adding a training queue in the first expansion was brilliant but I haven't played that very much yet.

Probably a higher density of predatory animals on the landscape (esp. hippopotamus) would confine non-military villager societies to a more localized area at the start of the game (which is apparently the biggest issue I have).

I think starting from Nomad with a blacked out map is the purest way to play competitively because I feel as if it's almost like cheating to start with a fully revealed map (food, predators, and all) and kind of lame to start with 3 villagers and a building, as it automatically rules out strategic placement of the town hall.

 

[seabass]

It's chiefly tactical and precise about its management and execution aspects.


I'm making this comment mostly because I've played AoE with my brother and after I mined ALL of the resources from the map and approached his aesthetically pleasing city with hordes of highest tech armies he complained that he didn't have enough time to enjoy the "building up" after I gave him 4 hours. Anyway, he's playing Anno now and finds it much more up his alley.

If you wish to play vs AI, I recommend AoE 2 with custom AI mods, you'll notice, if you haven't already, that AI in AoE 1 stops growing and freezes in its progress, it will send a few waves of attacks and after it uses all of its gold it won't sell wood or food and will meekly wait for the killing blow. It's not a particularly great feat to exploit such things, go turtle mode and beat 7 AI opponents.

After observing your edits I wish to respond to this once again. Do forgive me for bad etiquette if I'm posting too much in a row but alas I only have a few short windows for this type of thing at the start and end of the day.

With regards to some of your points... you are quite accurate in a lot of ways however I don't want to misinform you. I'm actually very good a the game and play quite offensively. Turtling is fine in deathmatch mode but it's just as much braindeath as spending four hours carefully arranging your houses.

I can't really beat more than a few AI opponents because ultimately they slingshot and the dominant one commands all of the resources which the other two collect. I can take on about 3 but that's with an offensive strategy of sending small squads of clubmen about the map long before Tool Age.

My problem, in particular, is not that I suck at the game. My problem is that I don't have anyone to compete with who is on my level and I have literally 0 interest in capitalizing on a pre-existing algorithm of economic development in order to fit into a community of people who all play the same way with the same 16 first moves. It atrophies the roleplaying element to the point where the game dries up and it's like eating raisins instead of grapes.

 

[Puffy]

The tendency I remember from competitive gaming is that as a game gets older, it increasingly becomes only the vanguard who stick around. So you end up with quite small, experienced and competitive communities that make the barriers to entry more difficult.

I think you just need to accept that if you want to play AoE1 in multiplayer online that it's a niche veteran community and if you want to survive you're going to have to learn their strategies.

I would suggest playing AoE2 as I personally think it's the best game in the series, but you'll likely run into the same issues playing it online.

 

[seabass]

The tendency I remember from competitive gaming is that as a game gets older, it increasingly becomes only the vanguard who stick around. So you end up with quite small, experienced and competitive communities that make the barriers to entry more difficult.

I think you just need to accept that if you want to play AoE1 in multiplayer online that it's a niche veteran community and if you want to survive you're going to have to learn their strategies.

I would suggest playing AoE2 as I personally think it's the best game in the series, but you'll likely run into the same issues playing it online.

I ran into the same problems with warcraft2.

I suppose I will come to a grim acceptance as you have indicated because you are 100% right.

Nevertheless I present an open invitation to this community to create a league of our own or something. or not idk.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

My problem, in particular, is not that I suck at the game. My problem is that I don't have anyone to compete with who is on my level and I have literally 0 interest in capitalizing on a pre-existing algorithm of economic development in order to fit into a community of people who all play the same way with the same 16 first moves. It atrophies the roleplaying element to the point where the game dries up and it's like eating raisins instead of grapes.

An established way of play is called "meta". Do bear in mind that the current AoE meta has most likely developed from disorganised, individual strategies much like your own. Meta isn't usually 100% optimal, but it's usually a broad collection of the 80-95% most efficient strategies that tend to light-counter the others in the group by some acceptable margins (the remaining top 5% of strats is the new meta in the brewing that's slowly replacing the old unless the game is very limited or the community is too small).

It's often fun to try to find ways to break the meta, to create your own viable ways to win, however in a failure to come up with superior strategies, trying to play suboptimally in a competitive setting would be limiting into essentially either asking other players to go easy on you or putting a handicap on yourself. If your strategy doesn't hold up vs theirs, you'll lose. You might work around it by improving your execution (micro/macro: map awareness, scouting, unit control, timings, resource management etc.) so that you can beat weaker players with your raw skill.

I understand that playing in the same way might be boring or not creative, but if you can't beat boring plays with your creative ones, then they're probably very solid and superior in the first place. It means that their way of playing agrees more with the game objectives than your own in that they try to kill/disrupt their opponent much more effectively. Ultimately it's something you can blame on the design of that particular game, not the community, imo.


Now going back to the chess comment and tying it to Puffy's post. Expert players rarely want to play noobs, it's a waste of their time, they don't improve while the noobs potentially do (with the right approach). You see, if you got to play me and I was a chess expert or AoE expert, you should analyse your games and you'd very quickly improve. Simply follow what I did in the replay, or follow those kinds of moves that dragged the game on the longest, or had the highest number of chess moves until conclusion.

Say I open white in chess and I beat you with a classic scholar's. Ask for white pieces and play a scholar's on me and you'll see a good counter, lose that game, copy your previous and iterate. Slowly develop your intuition and add your own moves and see responses to those. You think it's not a quick way to learn? It's actually one of the fastest, all those chess players or AoE masters have thousands of patterns and responses memorised in much the same way.

It's not futile to enter a community of expert players hoping to match their level so long they're willing to play with you. With enough games and practice you'll eventually make it.

 

[seabass]

Thank you Blarraun, that was an outstanding commentary.
Of course I take no issue with it.

It bears no repeating that my objective in posting here is not to develop an expert level of competitive play but rather to compete in the lower leagues to get a few more games under my belt.

Will you not accept my challenge

Edit: I will take your good advice as well and continue trying to play multiplayer in an effort to improve.

 

[Happy]

Bigdaddy and photon man were good, but e=mc2 trooper was the best.

Hoyohoyo after upgrading monotheism (iirc) was fun too.

Wow. It's been about 20 years and I still remember the cheats in that game... But don't judge me, I haven't used cheats for about 15 years now. Cold turkey ftw

 

[Nymus Anon]

I'm unable to play it with my brother on windows 10 because windows 10 doesn't support ipx protocol for it. I've tried ipx wrapper but it doesn't work, or I may not be using it right.

Also, the later aoe games like aoeII and age of mythology won't work at all on windows 10, I had to get a virtual machine program and run windows xp to get it to work. I haven't been able to try that for aoe1 multiplayer yet because my disc is messed up and can play it but not install it.

Does anyone know how I may be able to get the multiplayer working on windows 10?