An intangible beauty

[Coolydudey]

Any materialistic pursuit, scientific endeavour, intellectual challenge, physical delight, could not hope to touch the gaping abyss that is our heart. There is always - and there will always be - a special feeling, a spring of overflowing hope, compassion and joy, found where it is least expected, there to fill us to the brim with strength and will. Drink my comrades, for this is the only place you will see it. A thing of pure elegance, and perfect form. An intangible beauty.

 

[Observer]

Sounds like F to me.

Interestingly, you might turn this around and say the the heart can never hope to touch scientific endeavours, intellectual challenge, general logic etc.

Both F and T have their place though.

 

[Absurdity]

I'm not sure what you're on about. Everything is a "materialistic" pursuit. We're mammals. Clever apes. The concepts of selfhood and hearts and eternal souls are misconceptions fabricated and thrust upon us in childhood to be perpetuated for an arbitrary number of years until we hit our expiration date or something absentmindedly crushes us, like a bug on the sidewalk.

And there is no perfection. If there was, it certainly wouldn't seem beautiful to me but wholly alien. Rejoice in an aesthetic of scars and fuck ups and you'll find beauty all around you.

 

[GodOfOrder]

Hello Mr Faust

 

[loveofreason]

OP - I disagree.

here is the rapture that truth brings

Many will have already seen this, but if there's any clearer way to illustrate the "overflowing hope, compassion and joy" that fills the heart of those whose endeavours are physical, scientific, intellectual, then I'd like to see it Feel the wonder.

 

[Coolydudey]

Sounds like F to me.

Quite entirely; I did my best to put into words the most wonderful expression my Fe makes sometimes... I am quite in touch with my emotions on a personal level. It might even be that I have some Fi development. Although I think I have just learned (with the help of typology), the place of all my thoughts and modes of function.

 

[Coolydudey]

I'm not sure what you're on about. Everything is a "materialistic" pursuit. We're mammals. Clever apes. The concepts of selfhood and hearts and eternal souls are misconceptions fabricated and thrust upon us in childhood to be perpetuated for an arbitrary number of years until we hit our expiration date or something absentmindedly crushes us, like a bug on the sidewalk.

And there is no perfection. If there was, it certainly wouldn't seem beautiful to me but wholly alien. Rejoice in an aesthetic of scars and fuck ups and you'll find beauty all around you.

I think you take too literally what was perhaps one of the most figurative texts you have ever read...

 

[Coolydudey]

OP - I disagree.

here is the rapture that truth brings

Many will have already seen this, but if there's any clearer way to illustrate the "overflowing hope, compassion and joy" that fills the heart of those whose endeavours are physical, scientific, intellectual, then I'd like to see it Feel the wonder.

@loveofreason

I'm perfectly aware of the points made in and by the video; why would you disagree though? What are you disagreeing with?

(This is the most serious of the three posts, sorry for the mess, but I just felt like I had something separate for everyone that posted).

 

[loveofreason]

I disagree with the OP. Maybe I've misunderstood what you meant - I took you to mean that scientific, intellectual and/or physical-material pursuits have no hope of alleviating an empty heart (emotional sense of loss or emptiness).

Wonder and scientific awe with the true nature of the universe and life (matter) is about the only thing I know that fills it. Just contemplating the workings of the cosmos is the most emotionally overflowing experience of joy and compassion that I know: a response to intangible beauty.

Unless I misunderstand your OP, I think that makes our perspectives diametrically opposed

I could always be having a comprehension fail moment

And just because I'm a bit blissed out by it, here's another ode:

 

[joal0503]

Any materialistic pursuit, scientific endeavour, intellectual challenge, physical delight, could not hope to touch the gaping abyss that is our heart. There is always - and there will always be - a special feeling, a spring of overflowing hope, compassion and joy, found where it is least expected, there to fill us to the brim with strength and will. Drink my comrades, for this is the only place you will see it. A thing of pure elegance, and perfect form. An intangible beauty.

intangible you say?

i would argue that it only takes 15 minutes, and an open mind...

 

[BigApplePi]

Any materialistic pursuit, scientific endeavour, intellectual challenge, physical delight, could not hope to touch the gaping abyss that is our heart. There is always - and there will always be - a special feeling, a spring of overflowing hope, compassion and joy, found where it is least expected, there to fill us to the brim with strength and will. Drink my comrades, for this is the only place you will see it. A thing of pure elegance, and perfect form. An intangible beauty.

We can never hope to reach the beauty of pure mathematics. It is there, ever complex, beheld for a pseudo-moment yet ultimately unreachable.

 

[loveofreason]

^ Absolutely

Math: the ultimate intangible beauty.

 

[joal0503]

^ Absolutely

Math: the ultimate intangible beauty.

until the aliens arrive and scoff at it. silly math, that was 300 million years ago.

 

[Coolydudey]

I disagree with the OP. Maybe I've misunderstood what you meant - I took you to mean that scientific, intellectual and/or physical-material pursuits have no hope of alleviating an empty heart (emotional sense of loss or emptiness).

Wonder and scientific awe with the true nature of the universe and life (matter) is about the only thing I know that fills it. Just contemplating the workings of the cosmos is the most emotionally overflowing experience of joy and compassion that I know: a response to intangible beauty.

Unless I misunderstand your OP, I think that makes our perspectives diametrically opposed

I could always be having a comprehension fail moment

And just because I'm a bit blissed out by it, here's another ode:

Meh, you talk of things I would strictly term scientific or intellectual pursuit, rather fulfilment and understanding; look at my sig, it happens to express perfectly the small gap that is dividing our understandings.

 

[Absurdity]

I think you take too literally what was perhaps one of the most figurative texts you have ever read...

Condescension always appreciated. Especially when paired with a failure to clearly explain the point one is making. Smells like sophist nonsense to me.

 

[BigApplePi]

Here is an example from number theory, far from the best, but I recall it as a mystery. There is a theorem, I forget where I read it ... I'll give it in a moment. I've posted it before, maybe even on this forum but not in this context. Here is the theorem:

There is only one positive whole number solution to this equation:

X squared plus two = Y cubed.

The solution is stated extremely simply: X = 5 and Y = 3. Yet for all time there are no other solutions. I understand proving this is quite hard and I'm sure if I saw the proof I couldn't even follow it. That makes this theorem a perfection beyond our* understanding.

The Pythagorean Theorem doesn't fall into this category, for although it is beautiful, a geometric proof is within our grasp, making it somewhat intuitive after a little effort.

I have mixed feelings about what is considered the most beautiful theorem in mathematics: e to the pi i = -1**.

Although it is beautiful because of combining difficult to grasp numbers amazingly simply, the proof becomes very intuitive once you understand it. But getting there is complex because you have to know the complex number graph.
__________________________________

*A specialist can prove it, but I wonder if it is too complex to beat intuition?
**Note s0cratus

 

[Cognisant]

Emotions are just biases hardwired into the brain

Dung Beetle: Poo is awesome, it is the epitome of existence!
Me: It's just poo.
Dung Beetle: How can you be so dismissive, do you have any idea what poo smells like, feels like, the aesthetic of it, have you truly experienced the glory that is poo?
Me: It's just poo, you're a dung beetle, it may be the epitome of your existence but to the rest of us it's awful stinky stuff that one's best to avoid steeping in.

Any materialistic pursuit, scientific endeavour, intellectual challenge, physical delight, could not hope to touch the gaping abyss that is our heart. There is always - and there will always be - a special feeling, a spring of overflowing hope, compassion and joy, found where it is least expected, there to fill us to the brim with strength and will. Drink my comrades, for this is the only place you will see it. A thing of pure elegance, and perfect form. An intangible beauty.

Dung Beetle thinks you're getting high of your own supply.

 

[BigApplePi]

Dung Beetle: Poo is awesome, it is the epitome of existence!
Me: It's just poo.
Dung Beetle: How can you be so dismissive, do you have any idea what poo smells like, feels like, the aesthetic of it, have you truly experienced the glory that is poo?
Me: It's just poo, you're a dung beetle, it may be the epitome of your existence but to the rest of us it's awful stinky stuff that one's best to avoid steeping in.

BAP: Poo on you.
Dung Beetle: Thank you. Have some.
BAP: No thanks. I'm holding my nose.
Dung Beetle: One man's poo is another beetle's delicacy. Is your nose getting heavy?
BAP: The atmosphere here leaves something to be desired. You can have my share.

Dung Beetle: Shall I save some for Cognisant?
BAP: I don't think he's into poo.
Dung Beetle: I look for what comes out, not in.
BAP: Then you look out. Many of us are full of it.
Dung Beetle: Tell him it's an acquired taste.
BAP: Don't hold your breathe.
Dung Beetle: I won't. It ruins the experience.

BAP: Gotta go walk my dog now.
Dung Beetle: May I follow you?
BAP: You won't be able to keep up.
Dung Beetle: Your business is my business. I'll catch your drift.
BAP: When a cow drops by aren't you afraid you'll get smothered?
Dung Beetle: Heck no. I just eat my way to the surface.
BAP: Happy daze. Roll on there lil' fella.

 

[Coolydudey]

Condescension always appreciated. Especially when paired with a failure to clearly explain the point one is making. Smells like sophist nonsense to me.

Far from it, I think you just imposed a dull mood on a text that didn't need to be interpreted that way; it was just advice on how to read the OP!

 

[Coolydudey]

Emotions are just biases hardwired into the brain

Dung Beetle: Poo is awesome, it is the epitome of existence!
Me: It's just poo.
Dung Beetle: How can you be so dismissive, do you have any idea what poo smells like, feels like, the aesthetic of it, have you truly experienced the glory that is poo?
Me: It's just poo, you're a dung beetle, it may be the epitome of your existence but to the rest of us it's awful stinky stuff that one's best to avoid steeping in.


Dung Beetle thinks you're getting high of your own supply.

Fair point, but emotions are NOT hard-wired into the brain...

 

[Philovitist]

Any materialistic pursuit, scientific endeavour, intellectual challenge, physical delight, could not hope to touch the gaping abyss that is our heart. There is always - and there will always be - a special feeling, a spring of overflowing hope, compassion and joy, found where it is least expected, there to fill us to the brim with strength and will. Drink my comrades, for this is the only place you will see it. A thing of pure elegance, and perfect form. An intangible beauty.

Ever heard of the Romantic Scholar archetype?

 

[Philovitist]

Fair point, but emotions are NOT hard-wired into the brain...

They are, actually. As hardwired as our sexual response.

 

[Cognisant]

Fair point, but emotions are NOT hard-wired into the brain...

Got any particular reason for thinking that aside from wanting it to be true?

 

[Coolydudey]

Ever heard of the Romantic Scholar archetype?

No, and that's not me, I just happen to get into those moods sometimes.

@Cognisant, @Philovitist,
As for emotional responses,

So, what you guys are telling me, is that I will have the same emotional response as my next door neighbour, a priest, and a serial killer to the scene of someone getting violently stabbed?
Unless I have misunderstood something...

 

[Cognisant]

So, what you guys are telling me, is that I will have the same emotional response as my next door neighbour, a priest, and a serial killer to the scene of someone getting violently stabbed?

Pretty much

You just have different behavioural responses to those emotions and your behaviour will affect your subsequent emotions as well, conscious thought being a form of meta-behaviour within the brain.

 

[Coolydudey]

And, even though our viewpoints are converging, I still disagree; Is there any scientific evidence of such a thing?

I very much think that even at a primitive, proto-emotional level (as in first response), there are still differences from person to person, that can also be cultivated. Sensitisation and habituation, for example, are well known phenomena, and can also take place for emotions.

 

[Philovitist]

Pretty much

You just have different behavioural responses to those emotions and your behaviour will affect your subsequent emotions as well, conscious thought being a form of meta-behaviour within the brain.

lolwhat?

No, and that's not me, I just happen to get into those moods sometimes.

@Cognisant, @Philovitist,
As for emotional responses,

So, what you guys are telling me, is that I will have the same emotional response as my next door neighbour, a priest, and a serial killer to the scene of someone getting violently stabbed?
Unless I have misunderstood something...

Hardwired =/= the exact same in everyone. But there are definitely universals when it comes to emotion. Paul Ekman proved it by comparing emotional expressions and meanings across varieties of cultures, including some isolated from Western culture.

The basic emotions are universal, and arise under the same conditions. Ex. Anger (or sadness, I suppose) generally arises when a person appraises some event as involving an unjust offense agains oneself or one's own. I just think those are hardwired. And that learning sculpts how the appraisal process is carried out, as well as some variations in how we express and feel our emotions.

 

[Duxwing]

Meh, you talk of things I would strictly term scientific or intellectual pursuit, rather fulfilment and understanding; look at my sig, it happens to express perfectly the small gap that is dividing our understandings.

*walks up to Cooleydudey with open arms* *hugs Cooleydudey, his soft pajamas gently rustling in the chilly evening air* *smiles* Feel that? *pulls away from the embrace, his head tilted to one side* Let yourself be moved by and give unto others not only these displays of warmth, tenderness, and understanding, but all the joys of humor and story-telling: give and feel all the things that make us human. And find others who will join you in this journey of feeling-- a pet, a lover, some friends-- and maintain your relationships with them despite the pain that you will inevitably endure. In so doing you will find interpersonal fulfillment.

-Duxwing

In other words: Integrate your Fe and it won't be hungry anymore.

 

[Coolydudey]

lolwhat?



Hardwired =/= the exact same in everyone. But there are definitely universals when it comes to emotion. Paul Ekman proved it by comparing emotional expressions and meanings across varieties of cultures, including some isolated from Western culture.

The basic emotions are universal, and arise under the same conditions. Ex. Anger (or sadness, I suppose) generally arises when a person appraises some event as involving an unjust offense agains oneself or one's own. I just think those are hardwired. And that learning sculpts how the appraisal process is carried out, as well as some variations in how we express and feel our emotions.

Clearly; In fact, all you are saying is that people have similar (if not almost the same) emotions, and respond to situations in similar ways. There are exceptions, but they're hardly worth considering.