AHS Cult ****SPOILERS****

[HappyPhantom]

Jennywocky, are you watching this season? Anyone else?

 

[Mxx]

Re: AHS Cult

Is this thread just for Jennywocky or can others join in?

 

[HappyPhantom]

Re: AHS Cult

Of course others can join in. Have you been watching this season? If not, have you watched any previous seasons?

 

[Mxx]

Re: AHS Cult

I loved the first season, was completely hooked on it. I enjoyed the Coven one, as well as Hotel. As someone who is interested in the psychology of humans in extreme cases, this show is right up my alley.

I've been following this season yes.

I'll never understand the clown fear.

 

[Jennywocky]

I watched the pilot and have the backlog of the rest sitting on my DVR, I will probably blitz through 'em shortly.

How about that Evan Peters. Wow.

I still don't understand the fixation with clowns from some folks. like, okay, if they are done up right, they can look kind of creepy due to juxtaposition of expectation and reality (um... yeah, see my avatar, lol... ooops) but... I don't understand actual phobia.

Intellectually I follow it, but I don't experience it.

 

[Jennywocky]

Re: AHS Cult

I loved the first season, was completely hooked on it. I enjoyed the Coven one, as well as Hotel. As someone who is interested in the psychology of humans in extreme cases, this show is right up my alley.

I've been following this season yes.

I'll never understand the clown fear.

Oh hey, yes, another who doesn't get clown fear either.

They are just clowns. Like, whatever.

Anyway, my favorite seasons were Hell House (Season 1) and Coven (Season 3), although I liked the twist in Roanoke (Season 6) and the one season I have not yet watched is Hotel (Season 5).

 

[Black Rose]

I knew a guy at my job that was completed frightened of clowns. It is impossible to get him to see a clown movie.

 

[Jennywocky]

I knew a guy at my job that was completed frightened of clowns. It is impossible to get him to see a clown movie.

Well, admittedly, most movie clowns aren't very good to start with.

Spoiler

 

[Bad Itch]

I can't find this Nicole Kidman film anywhere.

 

[Jennywocky]

yeah those aussies scare the shite outta me

talk about bad hair days

 

[QuickTwist]

Assholes cult???

 

[Happy]

I can't find this Nicole Kidman film anywhere.

Whoa! I see it!

Nice pick

 

[Lurker]

Yes, I watched the first ep. -- but I heard Lena Dunham slipped inside during filming, and will eventually appear in the show. I need to brace myself.

I miss Jessica Lange.

 

[Cognisant]

Red nose, baggy overalls, big shoes, big dopey expression (whether it be happy or sad) I think the stereotypical clown represents an alcoholic factory worker, common themes of a clown act are poverty and foolish behavior.

 

[HappyPhantom]

I don’t get the clown fear either. I mean everybody loves a clown!

Here’s a quick breakdown of each season. I’ll add more later.

Murder House: Very well written with an exceptional cast and my favorite season.
Asylum: Again, exceptional cast, yet I thought they had too many storylines (albeit great ones) going at once.
Coven: Great cast and Kathy Bates killed it as Marie Laveau!
Freak Show: My second favorite. Dandy amused me.
Hotel: Denis O’Hare as Liz Taylor, Sarah Paulson as Betty, Kathy Bates as Iris and Evan Peters as James Patrick Marsh, all excellent characters.
Roanoke: Roanope. Just. Plain. Awful.
Cult: It started off as a great psychological thriller but last week sucked. My hope is that Ryan (lazy ass) Murphy only threw us off with the absurdity of last weeks episode “Holes” and the rest of the season can be salvaged.

 

[Jennywocky]

I miss Jessica Lange.

I think it's good to get more variety in the various seasons, and Lange just dominates when she's around.

However, that's because she is such a damned good actress. She's phenomenal, with a rich range and total fearlessness on the screen. I love her and do miss her here.

 

[HappyPhantom]

I knew Ivy was in with the clown posse, but what’s their purpose of driving Ally deeper into insanity? Jennifer whyyy? lol You and I discussed AHS at typoc years ago so I would like to hear what you think is going on. Oz is safe, that much we know.

I do like the fear aspect because fear is what drives people to often times make poor decisions. Fear of not being good enough, fear of the unknown, self doubt, self hatred, deeply rooted insecurities, abusive parents, etc. Fear is the ultimate evil.

Here are a few facts-
Winter spent a year working for the Clinton campaign in Florida where Twisty the Clown is originally from. Ally grew up in Florida, so Twisty’s home state has now come up twice—and neither of these off-handed mentions happened by accident. What dark history lurks in Ally’s past, and what role mighy it play in everything that’s now unfolding? Will Beverly kill Kai and become the new leader? How involved is Kai’s brother, Dr. Anderson? I’m also curious as to how they’ll tie Valerie Solonas into the story since this season is supernatural free. My guess is Kai is delusional and thinks Valerie is speaking to him.

 

[QuickTwist]

I knew a guy at my job that was completed frightened of clowns. It is impossible to get him to see a clown movie.

My God, he has a huge head. I bet it was hard to give birth to such a creature.

 

[Jennywocky]

Okay, I'm three episodes in (and three to go). I'll be honest, and this is a problem for me with every AHS season for a few seasons now... I don't really feel like there's a lot cohesion within episodes so they tend to just drag. Like, where is it going? What is it doing? Is it actually building subplots with their own momentum or is it just trying to be weird and unsettling?

This is an issue with AHS: Cult in my view:

- "Too soon." I'm not sure what the difference is between "timely" and "too soon," but while I'm living this shit out IRL, I'm not sure I need a TV show about it that is more just exploiting it rather than saying anything relevant about it.

- The season feels more like parody than anything relevant. The two lesbian chicks are the worst -- they're parodies of lesbian couples, and of far left-wingers, and of white people, and ... well, just parodies in general... but they're not the only ones. Are we spoofing this stuff or trying to make something relevant?

- Where's it going? WTF knows? Yes, there's a theme of "fear" but I'm not sure what the season plans to do about it. Some of the fears seem realistic, some of the fears seem divorced from typical human rationality and I can't identify. Even the plots that seem explicable still don't make sense -- for example, it's easy to see that someone is purposefully trying to drive Poulson insane and split up her family, but why her? What does she amount to in the world to deserve that much risk and attention? Is this same thing happening to others? When we get to the end of the season, will we find out she's sitting in an asylum somewhere and this whole thing has been fabricated in her mind? Or maybe it's just a plot of her shrink to cure her of her phobias? Or something else equally preposterous? Why her? And why not someone with more relevance? I don't get it.

As far as my favorite parts of the season, they revolve around:

- Particular moments of horror. For example, the woman suffering a fear of coffins. I knew that was gonna happen. And they spent the correct amount of time on it... about five minutes... and then moved on. Good. Or maybe creepy scenes like Winter seducing Poulson's character in the tub.

- Evan Peter's character. He's the most enigmatic and intriguing character of the season. What's he up to? is he human? What's he hope to accomplish? Why these people he's focusing on? And so on. His scenes are the most mesmerizing, with those pinkie confessions.

-----

My hopes for this series have always revolved around the title: "American" and "Horror" and "Story."

There's horror elements so that part has always been consistent at least.

It's also about America -- what things seem reflective mainly of the United States, the things we find traditionally scary or are reflective of our culture or at least how they are interpreted and present within our culture. So yeah thematically seeing the "Murder House" with school shootings, or the mental asylum and UFOs, or witchcraft the american way, or freak shows that traveled throughout the usa a century ago... and the various sub-elements they try to incorporate as well.

But where is the story? The show does best when it has stories to tell... and especially if they are reflective of American experience. These season i am not sure what the story is aside from "people are scared." But in general I feel like the stories have not been compelling for a long time. Coven had some interesting stories -- you get a supreme who does not want to hand over her power and what she's willing to do to keep it, along with a woman who is trying to step out from under the shadow of her domineering mother and meanwhile protect and train youg women. I didn't see hotel, but I feel like they are losing the idea of "story" especially in ways that make it specific to the narratives of the USA and it's just becoming a grabbag of the unsettling and weird.

I still don't really know what they are trying to accomplish here this season, after three episodes, other than trying to bewilder and destroy some woman who is an unlikable protagonist and mostly a parody of what she represents.

 

[Jennywocky]

Okay, episode 4 is vintage AHS and easily the best episode this season I've seen so far.

Evan Peters has come a long way since serving as the personality-less sidekick from Kick-ass in 2010. He had a breakout role in Season 1 & 2 of AHS the next two years, but this is the most mesmerizing he's been allowed to be on the series since. And mesmerizing he is -- not sure whether they are spinning this off Charles "Crazy Eyes" Manson but he's far more coherent and insightful than Manson ever was. He seems to have the power to find the source of rage and humiliation in his targets and fan it into overt flame. He also backs up his words (as Beverly calls him out on) with action, he's not just empty speech. He's in their corner, their tribe, and will look out for them. This is what people buy into, whether it's a church or a family or friends or anything else; it provokes fierce loyalty and willingness to risk in return.

Episode 4 thus has far more coherence than any episode this season. We finally see who has been orchestrating some craziness among all the other cast for some times, and we actually see what he is offering them to win their allegiance and belief. And it works. His words seem crazy from the outside, but when you understand where each of these characters came from, his voice appears to be a voice of sanity and power. It makes sense why they would buy into his promises... and he even seems like he has a shot at making his promises reality.

I also like how he ignores politics -- he can appeal to the rage in the left or the right, woman or man, white or black, gay or straight. They believe he wants to empower them. But he does it via generating fear and pain, then tapping into rage.

I still am laughing that they are casting Dermot Mulroney in this season, as a stuffy and misogynist anchorman, and they've got Chaz Bono (transguy and son of Cher and Sonny) back -- last season he was a redneck cannibal, this season he's a redneck anti-left guy willing to do anything for his chance to pull that lever.

Anyway... far better story telling in Episode 4. It's just, will anyone but the diehard fans stick through the first three episodes to get to this one? And will the next episode continue in like vein or will it go back to confusion and aimlessness?


EDIT:

Not a shock, here's the RT rating of positive reviews per episode for Season 7 so far:

Spoiler

Note the scale on the left is not from 0-100 but 70-100, so the diehard reviewers sticking with this still like the show. But TV show rankings seem more of a bust on RT, in the sense that a 60-70 isn't great whereas for a movie it's actually fairly decent. I think more reviewers are forced to watch movies regardless of expected quality or interest, so the bad movies usually end up in their 0-45% range, true mixed movies are 50-60%, etc. When true fans of a show are unsure about whether they like something or not, it usually bodes less well.

EDIT2: I also have to call out Adina Porter in this episode. She's great. She carries so much complexity of emotion in her voice and face during her various scenes. Really a superb performance.

 

[Jennywocky]

Cult: It started off as a great psychological thriller but last week sucked. My hope is that Ryan (lazy ass) Murphy only threw us off with the absurdity of last weeks episode “Holes” and the rest of the season can be salvaged.

What did you find absurd about "Holes"?

I don't think it's as good as "11/9" but is still one of the more coherent episodes so far. I was really happy NOT to see yet another episode focused on Ally going batshit crazy, as I get the point -- there was about ten minutes of it, and that was fine with me. Great cold open reveal too.

I also realize that I really don't like Ally, and I don't much like Ivy either... maybe this is why i hated the first few episodes which revolved entirely about them and Ally's issues with reality.

Spoiler

I can't stand whiny clingy people. I know Ally has some mental issues and I am sympathetic there, but she also seems to be one of those judgmental, partial, whiny, self-absorbed people apart from her mental illness, and those are the kinds of people I just stay far away from. Her response on finding Meadow in the grave was to run off and hide in her house, then not open the door to let her in -- which, sure, would have been the wrong choice, but she didn't know that. She was just withholding help. Fuck you, Ally.

I realized I didn't like Ivy when I discovered she is part of the cult. That in itself isn't the point, because I understand why -- but it means she has been part of the plot to drive her WIFE insane and the whole time has been pretending Ally is going batshit crazy to the point of leaving the marriage AND taking their son... because she knows the truth. Like, wtf? I don't really give a shit if she's got cold feet over nail-gunning a stranger to prove her loyalty; the reality is that she's been purposefully and gaslighting her WIFE and the other mother of her kid without remorse. To me, that's pretty awful. Fuck you too, Ivy.

I also hate the way they bitch about not having money and their business is running them into the ground... yet they live in a house that is MUCH nicer than my house and HUGE... even the houses that I lived in with a spouse and three kids, and we did just fine. If you don't have money, then downgrade your home. Geez. Needless to say, have them as characters, but the show does so much better when the episodes do not revolve around them.

Not sure how I feel about seeing the cracks in Kai. It's a really interesting backstory... and was the dad trying to channel Bryan Cranston there? Along of course with the OTHER reveal which did not surprise me, actually.... I figured that's who it would be.

I wonder who the gimp was.

 

[Jennywocky]

Episode 6 was more of the same (taking things to the next logical step), including the plotline with Meadow. Although now as the seasons has become more explicable, it feels diminished a bit because you can foresee what might happen next.

For whatever reason, Ally is now far braver this episode than she has been throughout the entire season, which makes no real sense. Like, consistency of character? There was no foreshadowing of that. I do like how they fill in backstory moments from Meadow's arc that shed light on what she is doing now, and I found her more believable.

I appreciated the backstory on Ivy to now explain her anger, and it makes sense.

it was nice to see Mare Winningham back briefly. I liked her character. But again, more stupid stuff....

Spoiler

Kai shoots her point blank in the heart with the muzzle clearly against her torso perpendicularly. This is a ridiculous angle for someone to try to commit suicide from, it's almost impossible to do, and she isn't going to have powder residue on her shooting hand. Don't these morons ever watch Cold Case on Discovery Investigation or some other channel? This is all basic forensics. Same thing with Meadow's corpse. She's going to have powder residue all over her palms. Ally will probably have a bit from wrestling for the gun when it goes off (?), but... yeah. Except she has a history of mental illness, so I guess now we're going to see if they just send her up river without a chance to defend herself. She'll never get custody of the child she carried.

 

[HappyPhantom]

What did you find absurd about "Holes"?

It was too predictable.

I also realize that I really don't like Ally, and I don't much like Ivy either... maybe this is why i hated the first few episodes which revolved entirely about them and Ally's issues with reality.

Yes, I’ve had enough of her as well. Her new name is Wendy.

Spoiler

I can't stand whiny clingy people. I know Ally has some mental issues and I am sympathetic there, but she also seems to be one of those judgmental, partial, whiny, self-absorbed people apart from her mental illness, and those are the kinds of people I just stay far away from. Her response on finding Meadow in the grave was to run off and hide in her house, then not open the door to let her in -- which, sure, would have been the wrong choice, but she didn't know that. She was just withholding help. Fuck you, Ally.

I realized I didn't like Ivy when I discovered she is part of the cult. That in itself isn't the point, because I understand why -- but it means she has been part of the plot to drive her WIFE insane and the whole time has been pretending Ally is going batshit crazy to the point of leaving the marriage AND taking their son... because she knows the truth. Like, wtf? I don't really give a shit if she's got cold feet over nail-gunning a stranger to prove her loyalty; the reality is that she's been purposefully and gaslighting her WIFE and the other mother of her kid without remorse. To me, that's pretty awful. Fuck you too, Ivy.

Wendy is too crazy to live a happy life with and Ivy is her own special kind of crazy. Can two crazies happily live happily together? In this case no.

I also hate the way they bitch about not having money and their business is running them into the ground... yet they live in a house that is MUCH nicer than my house and HUGE... even the houses that I lived in with a spouse and three kids, and we did just fine. If you don't have money, then downgrade your home. Geez. Needless to say, have them as characters, but the show does so much better when the episodes do not revolve around them.

Yes they whine way too much. If I were Wendy I’d get in my car and gtf outta there, but she’s too crazy, whiny and stupid. I think RM is trying to show us how ridiculous most Americans are.

What did you think about Valerie Solanis Died For Your Sins? I though it was a refreshing change and a great backstory.

 

[Jennywocky]

I think it's funny one character is called Ally, and the actress who plays Ally's wife is Allison Pill. That must be confusing on-set.

I think RM is trying to show us how ridiculous most Americans are.

We definitely have inequities in our system that need to be remedied. At the same time, I just feel like we're all going batshit crazy unnecessary, especially when folks start swimming in their intricate ideologies. Growing up in religious extremism, it just looks like another form of that... the batshit crazy fundie stuff that seems like such a parody in King's works but the sad thing is that I know people like that, and even the more "normal" people sometimes hold crazy values that complicate their lives and the lives of the people around them.

I mean, in a sense, it is all constructed reality. I wish we could just get back to a few key truths like (1) people are people, so treat each other as you want to be treated, and (2) if you want to be part of a system, you have to give along with get, versus seeking advantage, (3) we have some common human experience that transcends background and culture, and (4) so much of life seems to be bullshit, so don't get caught up in it. I mean, damn, in the end we all die anyway... so why not live and help others live too?

What did you think about Valerie Solanis Died For Your Sins? I though it was a refreshing change and a great backstory.

I just watched it last night. I had mixed feelings in some respects.

I don't really watch much with Lena Dunham in it. This might be the longest thing I've seen of hers (although I plan to watch Tiny Furniture at some point). I also am leery when folks try to portray a historical figure in a show or movie, since then people treat it like it's an accurate portrayal and it might not be (and Valerie Solanis is obviously a very real person, the SCUM feminist who also shot Andy Warhol).

In a way, Solanis comes off as extreme as the folks this season seems to parody but I suppose she was actually this extreme IRL. Dunham's portrayal has verve, and I thought Peters was interesting as Warhol... but I have never watched any footage of Warhol.

(I'm guessing the Zodiac killer thing was thrown in as a lark for AHS... or did Solanis actually try to claim ownership?)

Anyway.... I guess it was the last ten seconds that made me howl in laughter. Along with THAT twist, we also have the cult becoming masculinized and the enraged women discarded and striking back, but... well, I have no idea who has the upper hand over who anymore.

Is this where the show always planned to go? The extremes of manist/feminist politics?

Four episodes left.

 

[Jennywocky]

Episode 8 was kinda typical AHS.

The board is cleared of two more pieces to make room for endgame shenanigans, there was a potentially nutjob plot development that the show decided was too much even for it to pursue to its conclusion, one of the leads goes completely wingnuts, and suddenly the tables turn in a direction that promises payback for one of the long-suffering characters.

Not sure how I feel. Ho-hum.

 

[Lurker]

OH GOD.

"Lena Dunham Is Playing a Real-Life Radical Feminist With a Violent History on AHS: Cult"

https://www.popsugar.com/entertainment/Who-Does-Lena-Dunham-Play-American-Horror-Story-Cult-43982135

The Girls writer and actress is set to appear in one episode, and it's going to be memorable. She's playing radical feminist Valerie Solanas in episode seven, which is titled "Valerie Solanas Died for Your Sins: Scumbag."

AHS is starting to disturb me.

 

[Jennywocky]

so i guess the finale is this week.

It looks like the whole thing was a spin of a spin... although the last ten minutes of this episode might be another spin.

has there ever been a season when much of the cast WASN'T killed off? Maybe Freak Show? (and I haven't seen Hotel, although considering the body count in episode 1 I have a hard time believing the cast survived that season). But pretty much Asylum and Roanoke both had a "kill them all" mentality. Anyway, that's what Cult is starting to feel like as well.

Not sure how I feel about it, but the recreation of the Manson murders of Sharon Tate & Co in this episode was definitely disturbing, esp with Sarah Paulson playing Susan Atkins, who was a complete bloodthirsty nutjob -- she converted to hardcore evangelical Christianity later in prison (it seems like she couldn't do anything halfway), then died of brain cancer (?) some years later. Anyway, they barely pulled any punches in that sequence, it seems to line up with the historical incident, and since it's based on something real, it packs a pretty hard punch versus all the stuff you know is fictional.

Not really sure how this is ending or how I feel about the season. It was somewhat interesting to watch through once, but it seems that a few episodes in, things went from crazy-surreal to just a guy running a political cult. Which is a little unnerving in itself and a little too much close to home. At the same time, there are other elements that just seem a bit silly or unnuanced.

 

[Jennywocky]

It looks like Phantom bailed, but anyway I did watch the season finale last night. Eh.

The season seems to have been a bit heavy-handed on the sociopolitical commentary, it's not exactly clear why characters ended up where they did in terms of plots and motivations, and the final minutes seemed pretty staged rather than necessarily believable. The last image of the season, sure, I get it, but I'm not sure what the point is that is trying to be made here other than obvious things. Ho-hum.

I also don't feel like characters necessarily acted like real people (including Ozzy, the son... he suffers a bunch of traumatic losses in the season and seems completely unaffected).

Also, as far as the endings to AHS seasons (big spoilers for multiple seasons):

Spoiler

Is anyone else sick of Sarah Paulson "winning" AHS so much? She's last person standing in Season 2, she's the winning Supreme in Season 3, I have not seen Season 5, but now in Season 7 she's won yet again and for no good reason really. Like... please do something else. There's a full cast here. Spread things out a bit.

Anyway Evan Peters was pretty decent and the Tate murders recreation was pretty harrowing. I was okay with a once-through slog but this isn't much of a rewatch.