Ahoy

[Jordan~]

Hi, I'm Jordan. I'm 15, from Dundee in Scotland, and uhm... I'm bad at speaking about myself? I suppose my interests include fantasy media - I'm prone to spending a great deal of my free time immersed in some other world, I'm a shameless escapist; architecture and gardens and art and things like that catch my interest (I struggle to picture anything else in my head - faces, natural environments, people, etc.), music (though my taste is fairly narrow - limited really to Joanna Newsom and, to a lesser extent, Mirah Yom Tov Zeitlyn); history (especially the very ancient - human migration, the development of languages, and the like interests me greatly); philosophy, which I can spend hours debating about; and, uh, lots of other things, but generally nothing particularly practical. So, hi!

Edit: And I suppose I should include (since I've heard that it's common in INTPs, or at least that we're good at it) that I plan to go into linguistics, specifically historical linguistics, my pet interest.

 

[loveofreason]

Hi Jordan.

I can relate to a lot of those interests - but I don't have enough lives to explore them!

Do you think it's possible to identify the mother of all languages, or did language arise multiple times in isolation?

 

[Frosty]

Welcome Jordan, hope you enjoy your stay here. I'm fascinated by your choice of interests at such a young age. Linguistics! Awesome!!! My 15-year-old son is mostly interested in computer games. <sigh>

I'll be interested to learn what you think of the ultimate geographical origin of human languages. I recently read that there's at least some secular agreement that their origin is somewhere in west-Asia, perhaps Turkey or nearby (which is surprisingly congruent with the Biblical view in Genesis).

 

[Jordan~]

Human languages, I think, originated in West Africa with mankind. And yes, I think it's possible to identify one language from which all others are descended.

 

[Linsejko]

West Africa is thrown around often too.

I also may end up minoring in linguistics, if not majoring.

Have you ever looked into Esperanto? Reading about the propedeutic value of the language is what finally convinced me to begin learning it (at least, that, and the large number of speakers, and Pasporta Servo).

I'm currently learning hebrew, a little arabic, and a tad greek. And I'm always trying to keep up my Esperanto.

.L

 

[lightspeed]

Welcome!

I like the term "shameless escapist".

 

[Titania]

I'm prone to spending a great deal of my free time immersed in some other world

Same here... Wondering should I spend more time in the real world... Nah!

Welcome, nice to see that I'm not the only 15-year-old here. I've also found myself pondering the evolution of languages...

 

[Jordan~]

Heh, the real world is so horribly overrated. All those disappointing people and boring places. It would be a different matter if every street hadn't been bleached into something faceless, bone-white, identical and uniform by consumerism.

 

[Linsejko]

What makes any fantasy world more interesting than the real world? There are no brighter colours there. There is nothing new there. It is merely a distortion of meaningless parameters of the true world.

Only a fantasy world could be as uniform as you describe; the real world is richly diverse, beautiful, terrible, dark, bright. But what is more, meaning is only found in the real world.

I despise any form of escapism that I ever find myself participating in; I cannot imagine the mentality of one who willingly indulges in such a lifestyle.

(I do not mean this to be offensive, and am not offended. I say this as a thorough explanation of the incoherency of your position to me. Just for web-clarification.)

.L

 

[Vrecknidj]

I suppose my interests include fantasy media - I'm prone to spending a great deal of my free time immersed in some other world...

What sorts of fantasy media?

Dave

 

[Jordan~]

What makes any fantasy world more interesting than the real world? There are no brighter colours there. There is nothing new there. It is merely a distortion of meaningless parameters of the true world.

Only a fantasy world could be as uniform as you describe; the real world is richly diverse, beautiful, terrible, dark, bright. But what is more, meaning is only found in the real world.

I despise any form of escapism that I ever find myself participating in; I cannot imagine the mentality of one who willingly indulges in such a lifestyle.

(I do not mean this to be offensive, and am not offended. I say this as a thorough explanation of the incoherency of your position to me. Just for web-clarification.)

What makes a fantasy world more interesting than the real world? I can't quite pick out what it is, but there's something infinitely more appealing about a world that isn't real to one where it is. Maybe it's because there's no struggle in this world, in the West, anyway. When we're hungry we go to a supermarket (the same as every other one), when we need clothes we go to a department store or multinational clothing store chain (the same as every other one), etc,; while in a less advanced world, you go to see craftsmen, whose loving attention and personality is explicit in everything they produce, who take pride and care in their work. Or in a more advanced world, there are all the wonders of bright and shiny technology. Not to mention magic in many fantasy settings.

Perhaps the real world is richly diverse region to region, but within regions it's pretty much uniform. In Scotland at least, high streets are pretty much indistinguishable from eachother. Same shops, same produce, different place. It's the character that a fantasy setting offers that just isn't present in at least the West, unless you dig deep down for it. Fantasy worlds are never lacking in character. They have incredible cities of marble spires and palaces, intrigue abounding, and innumerable other elements that serve to make them seem alive. This world seems dead, and I only see that getting worse with globalisation.

Additonally, I dislike the real world. If I spent all my time here, I don't know how I'd cope. I can put up with all the terrible things that happen in the world going on in a place where I know they're not real, and where good always prevails. The real world is not like that. For every victory won by "good", "evil" wins another forty. It's a depressing place. Dark fantasy can be depressing, but at least the hero wins in the end, despite the hardships along the way.

It seems I'm the opposite of you. I'm utterly non-pragmatic. Anything practical is of nearly no interest to me at all. The subjects I like tend to be frivolous "knowledge for the sake of knowledge" ones, the news only ever depresses me, things like gardens and grand buildings interest me, while matters of economics and politics don't. I just find the real world to be thouroughly lacklustre. I'll admit, it does have its moments and its little treasures that make it worthwhile, but those tend to be hidden in a morass of grey misery.

I disagree strongly that meaning is only found in the real world. Fiction can be used as a medium for the expression of meaning, and if it works well, people find the intended meaning in the fiction. That's what art is, really.

What sorts of fantasy media?

Books, games, films, anything.

 

[Vrecknidj]

I asked about what sorts because I'm just on the fringe of the RPG industry myself. I do free-lance editing for some third-party publishers, and do some tournament work for the RPGA and Wizards of the Coast.

Dave

 

[Jesin]

Welcome, nice to see that I'm not the only 15-year-old here. I've also found myself pondering the evolution of languages...

Soon we'll have another one. I turn 15 in a week.

I don't intend to hijack the thread, carry on. I'll probably have something on-topic to say later, but now I'm too tired.

 

[Linsejko]

I disagree strongly that meaning is only found in the real world. Fiction can be used as a medium for the expression of meaning, and if it works well, people find the intended meaning in the fiction. That's what art is, really.

The expression of meaning is, itself, meaningless, unless it compels you to change "in the real world", or is expressed to others in the real world, so as to change/affect others. Practical & meaningful are not necessarily interchangeable; I wouldn't call myself practical at all times, though I recognize the wisdom of concerning yourself with practical applications. I am, however, infinitely concerned with meaningfulness.

The large majority of the world is not globalized. Even though I live in the US, in a prosperous city, my city is beautifully messy and unique- there are thousands of hidden gems to find, active culture, and always things to do. I recently bumped into a group that plays 4 way chess twice a week at this nice coffeeshop downtown, at 2am. That's just one recent example.

Perhaps Scotland is too limited a sample of the world, is what I'm getting at.

You say this world seems dead, and talk of beautiful cities in the fantasy world- yet all I can think to myself is how much more I'd rather experience the beauty of Paris, Rome, Beijing, the Grand Canyons, Angel Falls, Anchorage, etc., than just read about/look at an artists' rendering of a fabricated world that, honestly, I do not believe compares with the rich hues of nature.

I really think it's all a problem of perception. What you paint as "the real world" is much more dark and fantastically boring a place than is really there. You say there is no struggle in our world, yet wars are fought all around the world; single mothers in poverty are out there every day living the most dramatically wearing lives you can imagine; everyday out there is someone who is having their world turned upside down. Every single day, thousands upon thousands of people suffer a painful death of someone close to them. Every day someone finds hope, every day a child of destiny is born. Every person has a life story that is worth hearing, has struggles, heartbreaks, and victories that make their life worth hearing. All the things that are worth finding in a fantasy are really more readily available, and more attractive, and, simply, meaningful in the real world, in our world. Because at the end of the day, we are alive. We hurt. We love. The fantasy world is but a pale imitation of our true, living earth.

To see the world any differently seems a delusion; yet, I guess, a shameless escapist cannot be bothered by such a problem. Delusion is the rule of thumb to such a mind, and it is not a problem.

(I hope this does not distance us; I am just expressing my perception. I am perfectly fine with you agreeing to disagree in the end. It feels so silly offering these disclaimers, but still necessary enough to offer them regardless.)

.L

 

[Vrecknidj]

I've followed your rebuttals with some interest. They've forced me to take a look at my own perspectives and check myself. However, I find that I still disagree with you on some things.

All the things that are worth finding in a fantasy are really more readily available, and more attractive, and, simply, meaningful in the real world, in our world.

I think that if you'd changed that to this, I would agree:

All the things that I believe are worth finding in a fantasy are really more readily available, and more attractive, and, simply, meaningful in the real world, in our world.

I simply don't agree that your analysis must hold for the OP, or for me, or for anyone else. Your analysis very well might hold for many, perhaps most people, but I don't believe that it's exclusively correct against the alternative being presented. (Which isn't to say I disagree with many of your points about getting out there and seeing more of the world--I agree with you there.)

Because at the end of the day, we are alive. We hurt. We love. The fantasy world is but a pale imitation of our true, living earth.

This is true, but it's not a justification that requires anyone to prefer a fantasy world to the real one.

Dave

 

[Dissident]

You say this world seems dead, and talk of beautiful cities in the fantasy world- yet all I can think to myself is how much more I'd rather experience the beauty of Paris, Rome, Beijing, the Grand Canyons, Angel Falls, Anchorage, etc., than just read about/look at an artists' rendering of a fabricated world that, honestly, I do not believe compares with the rich hues of nature.

Very poetic and moving really. But you have to accept that most people will never be able to go to Paris, Rome, Beijing, the Grand Canyons, Angel Falls, Anchorage, etc., and looking at a picture is not any more "real" that drawings of an artist or a description of a writer.

I really think it's all a problem of perception. What you paint as "the real world" is much more dark and fantastically boring a place than is really there. You say there is no struggle in our world, yet wars are fought all around the world; single mothers in poverty are out there every day living the most dramatically wearing lives you can imagine; everyday out there is someone who is having their world turned upside down. Every single day, thousands upon thousands of people suffer a painful death of someone close to them. Every day someone finds hope, every day a child of destiny is born. Every person has a life story that is worth hearing, has struggles, heartbreaks, and victories that make their life worth hearing. All the things that are worth finding in a fantasy are really more readily available, and more attractive, and, simply, meaningful in the real world, in our world. Because at the end of the day, we are alive. We hurt. We love. The fantasy world is but a pale imitation of our true, living earth.

Yet most people have to work 50 hs a week in a meaningless job, dont fight in any war, poverty and sufering bring no meaning to their lives and certainly wouldnt consider themselves as childs of destiny.
Giving up the real world for a fantasy one is probably the worst thing someone could do, but if it brings them any joy or pleasure then i dont see whats wrong with having a place in their life for it. Even more in P&P RPGs in which you get to play diferent personalitys or exploring wild posibilities where the choices are made by you and its not predeterminated like in a video game for example. I find tabletop RPGs very interesting

 

[Jordan~]

The expression of meaning is, itself, meaningless, unless it compels you to change "in the real world", or is expressed to others in the real world, so as to change/affect others. Practical & meaningful are not necessarily interchangeable; I wouldn't call myself practical at all times, though I recognize the wisdom of concerning yourself with practical applications. I am, however, infinitely concerned with meaningfulness.

The large majority of the world is not globalized. Even though I live in the US, in a prosperous city, my city is beautifully messy and unique- there are thousands of hidden gems to find, active culture, and always things to do. I recently bumped into a group that plays 4 way chess twice a week at this nice coffeeshop downtown, at 2am. That's just one recent example.

Perhaps Scotland is too limited a sample of the world, is what I'm getting at.

You say this world seems dead, and talk of beautiful cities in the fantasy world- yet all I can think to myself is how much more I'd rather experience the beauty of Paris, Rome, Beijing, the Grand Canyons, Angel Falls, Anchorage, etc., than just read about/look at an artists' rendering of a fabricated world that, honestly, I do not believe compares with the rich hues of nature.

I really think it's all a problem of perception. What you paint as "the real world" is much more dark and fantastically boring a place than is really there. You say there is no struggle in our world, yet wars are fought all around the world; single mothers in poverty are out there every day living the most dramatically wearing lives you can imagine; everyday out there is someone who is having their world turned upside down. Every single day, thousands upon thousands of people suffer a painful death of someone close to them. Every day someone finds hope, every day a child of destiny is born. Every person has a life story that is worth hearing, has struggles, heartbreaks, and victories that make their life worth hearing. All the things that are worth finding in a fantasy are really more readily available, and more attractive, and, simply, meaningful in the real world, in our world. Because at the end of the day, we are alive. We hurt. We love. The fantasy world is but a pale imitation of our true, living earth.

To see the world any differently seems a delusion; yet, I guess, a shameless escapist cannot be bothered by such a problem. Delusion is the rule of thumb to such a mind, and it is not a problem.

(I hope this does not distance us; I am just expressing my perception. I am perfectly fine with you agreeing to disagree in the end. It feels so silly offering these disclaimers, but still necessary enough to offer them regardless.)

.L

I of course recognise that practicality is necessary, but it's not for me. Other people can be practical if that's what they like, I'll just live off it and tell them about the ancient Caananite faith.
To say that fiction is meaningless seems so... unimaginative and unromantic. Fiction is perfectly meaningful. It can change who you are in the real world, mould and shape and move people.
I've been to Paris, Rome, the Grand Canyon, and many other places. They're very pretty, yes, but Paris and Rome are considered two of the greatest cities on Earth, and the Grand Canyon one of its natural wonders. Plus, they're all so far away. Of course, nature is very beautiful, but when I went to most of these places I wasn't old enough to appreciate it. I do so much more now, and being abroad does have a certain exoticism about it that lends vibrancy and life to a place (until you find out that it's a tourist-infested hole).
Perhaps I'm not speaking clearly. When I say "the real world", I mean my real world, and I don't struggle at all, nor is there any lively, buzzing culture in Dundee. And the examples you give: single mothers struggling does not compare to a war against evil in which you could be struck down round every corner, and there's something very unromantic about the struggling single mother compared to the humble villagers who barely get by. Our wars are unjust: when a soldier dies on foreign soil it is a terrible accident, a death taken by a greedy government rather than by an equally matched enemy. Wars in fantasy are never like that, or if they are, at least they're not real. The thing is that modern struggles are just so unromantic. They're so commonplace and everyday that we just absorb them.
Of course, the delusion is deliberate. It's to forget for a while that the real world is out there. Perhaps I have higher principles, and that's what makes it seem darker. An example: meat. I'm assuming you're not a vegetarian, but imagine a world in which slaves are kept globally, and systematically murdered and eaten for no reason at all, other than the gluttony of their consumers. This, to me, is our world. Or a world in which half the people are liable to hate you for something you had no control over, which harms no one, for the reason that an old man who lived thousands of years ago wrote it down in a book. Also our world (though fortunately Scotland is quite a tolerant place, in the society I mix with, at least). Forgive me if I try to pretend I don't live in such a world, if I retreat to other worlds where the problems are always resolved, where things get better rather than worse.
You're wrong in saying that a fantasy world is a pale imitation: it's the opposite, an attempt to remove the things that make Earth Earth, but keep the concepts that exist within it and use them to make something different. If it imitated the real world, I'd avoid it like the plague.

(And I never agree to disagree. )

 

[Vrecknidj]

Fiction is a lie that tells the truth. You can learn more about love and loss from reading Shakespeare than reading an encyclopedia.

Of course, you can learn more about it by living than reading Shakespeare.

So, points to both sides.



Dave