A woman gets naked after an encounter with cancer

[Newton John]

Nicki's Breast Cancer Diary in two parts:

1. Nicki's fairly grim daily journal of treatment for cancer: and
   
2. her amusing but moving story of posing for a nude photo project.
   

There's a serious intent to show anyone affected by breast cancer that it is possible for a woman to retain her femminiity and be sexy after treatment for the disease. The second part is quite entertaining, provided you aren't offended by the sight of a naked forty-eight year old woman.

I should declare an interest in that Nicki is my ESFJ wife of 16 years - you certainly wouldn't expect that any of us INTPs would be prepared to get our kit off in public. Also, I did the design of the website, although the original photo project that Nicki took part in, "On the Bright Side", was the work of a professional photographer.

 

[TimeAsylums]

The design sucks

fucking black text over rainbow

and the colors

+1 nudity


/

What's your take on "femininity" ? Curious

 

[Cognisant]

There's a serious intent to show anyone affected by breast cancer that it is possible for a woman to retain her femminiity and be sexy after treatment for the disease.

Why should a 48yr old care about being sexy?
Being attractive is not a bad thing but the message here seems to imply one's attractiveness has something to do with one's value as a person or self respect or something.

It's like some fat chick appearing in a music video in which the lyrics are "we'e all beautiful" or something and I think that's just bullshit, unattractive is unattractive and although pretending otherwise may seem like progress at the end of the proverbial day the facade falls through and the unattractive person is still unattractive, I don't think that's progress I think that's anything but progress. It's a fucking bandaid on a puncture wound, the problem goes deeper than what's being acknowledged and covering it up with good intentions isn't going to help.

The real problem is people don't like dealing with the truth, a 48yr old just isn't going to be attractive (unless you're Madonna with teams of personal trainers, nutritionists and plastic surgeons to practically embalm your still living husk) once you acknowledge the truth you can accept it and move on, I mean are you seriously to tell me there isn't more to life, some people are born ugly even deformed does that make their lives less worthwhile?

To Nicki I say congratulations you survived what many people don't, celebrate what you've got and don't lament what you haven't because (without extreme/experimental life extending procedures) life is finite and there's nothing worse than wasting what you've got lamenting what you don't.

Loss hurts but that's just how life is.

 

[paradoxparadigm7]

That's a really brave thing to do! Your wife's breasts look awesome and from what she said, it seemed like she enjoyed showing off her body. Good for you both!

 

[EyeSeeCold]

The real problem is people don't like dealing with the truth, a 48yr old just isn't going to be attractive

Spoiler

Why should a 48yr old care about being sexy?
Being attractive is not a bad thing but the message here seems to imply one's attractiveness has something to do with one's value as a person or self respect or something.

It's like some fat chick appearing in a music video in which the lyrics are "we'e all beautiful" or something and I think that's just bullshit, unattractive is unattractive and although pretending otherwise may seem like progress at the end of the proverbial day the facade falls through and the unattractive person is still unattractive, I don't think that's progress I think that's anything but progress. It's a fucking bandaid on a puncture wound, the problem goes deeper than what's being acknowledged and covering it up with good intentions isn't going to help.

The real problem is people don't like dealing with the truth, a 48yr old just isn't going to be attractive (unless you're Madonna with teams of personal trainers, nutritionists and plastic surgeons to practically embalm your still living husk) once you acknowledge the truth you can accept it and move on, I mean are you seriously to tell me there isn't more to life, some people are born ugly even deformed does that make their lives less worthwhile?

To Nicki I say congratulations you survived what many people don't, celebrate what you've got and don't lament what you haven't because (without extreme/experimental life extending procedures) life is finite and there's nothing worse than wasting what you've got lamenting what you don't.

Loss hurts but that's just how life is.

Rachida Dati is 48 years old, she is super cute.

 

[Architect]

I know I should be supportive here, but will risk upsetting people off to be honest; I think the website is self involved and indulgent. ESFJ's probably have a touch of exhibitionism and that's what we're getting, I think she has a more personal reason to put nudes of herself on the internet, and you're advertising it with a teaser headline.

There's a serious intent to show anyone affected by breast cancer that it is possible for a woman to retain her femminiity and be sexy after treatment for the disease.

I actually doubt this. I don't doubt it is your intent, but in my belief this isn't how these things work. Consider people who climb Everest. There are scores of them now, it's practically a mob scene to get to the top (it actually is a mob scene). And most of them have a similar story. They all say they're climbing Everest to show abused kids they can do it, or show that cancer survivors can do it, or show that people with diabetes can do it, etc (these are actual examples).

Really? Maybe people do find these examples inspiring, but I can't help thinking that all those Everest climbers are really doing it for themselves. And there's nothing wrong with that, in fact there's everything right with it. But they should at least be honest with themselves.

In this case I think your wife wanted to prove to herself that she was still sexy, and showing off nudes would do it - that's fine. I'd just say that it doesn't take cancer for a 48 yr old to suffer from feeling unsexy, it comes with the territory.

 

[Newton John]

Many thanks for both the positive and negative comments.

I should have though a little harder about the thread title - I realise now that it reads like a seedy tabloid headline. That must have irritated some people before they'd read any of the text. Apologies for that – I didn’t intend to be provocative.

The important issue is that the ladies involved in the original "On the Bright Side" project were looking to counter negative perceptions of disfigured bodies after surgery for breast cancer. They’d all been through despair after diagnosis and the fear that treatment would diminish them as women. Given that treatment may involve losing all or part of a breast, temporary loss of hair, bloating, etc., this is a perfectly natural reaction and even the most militant feminist would feel the same in that situation. As Nicki said, if she could have seen the positive “On the Bright Side” images, scars and all, during her treatment, it would have helped her considerably. As her partner, I really didn’t care about how she looked just whether she survived. Nevertheless, it was very important to her. At that time, I switched off that side of our relationship out of a misguided sense that my physical needs weren’t important in such a critical situation for her, but that left her feeling that her body revolted me.

As far as the comments about ageing are concerned, it appears we are in danger of slipping into ageism. Why shouldn’t a woman of any age feel good about her appearance and enjoy being sexy. Most people would be appalled if it was said that a person of certain race, sexual orientation or social class couldn’t be seen as attractive and sexy, so why is it OK to condemn the middle aged or elderly for wanting to be perceived in that way. Anything we can do to make them feel more positive about themselves has to be a good thing.

This was my first attempt at website design. I apologise that I wasn’t aware that there is a rule against black type on colour – I experimented with several typefaces and black was the easiest to read. The colours and the rainbow have an obvious meaning and significance, reflecting the theme of Nicki’s photo-shoot.

One of the reasons why I posted here was that I knew that my fellow INTPs wouldn't hold back their opinions. I can see why we're not always the most popular people in the world. My take on Myers-Briggs is that it is only a tool to help us understand ourselves and others better. However, I worry that some people want to misuse it. We already have ageism, racism, homophobia, etc. – do we really need ESFJism as well? In any case, we won’t win that battle as they outnumber us by almost four to one. INTPs have a lot to learn from ESFJs – I can recommend spending time with them. They can teach us a lot about emotion. Far from being self-obsessed, my wife spends her life being concerned about others, in common with all ESFJs.

 

[Minuend]

Kudos for getting through a tough time in your lives.

My only comment is that if one's intent is to show that a woman can maintain femininity and sexiness after such, usually it is inadvertently maintaining the idea that 1. There is a very narrow and specific kind of femininity and sexiness 2. Being sexy and feminine is important which in turns uphold the very problem that this is supposed to solve.

Pretty much no matter how you look like or what deformities you have, there are those who will find you attractive. People are often attracted to an exterior they associate with certain personality traits. Quite a few people don't seem to realize this and we get eating disorders, depression, low self esteem, overly focus on everything that will make you pretty or attractive which reinforces the trend and possibly creates a generation of people with somewhat skewed perspective on what's important in life. There will probably be a counter reaction to this obsession at one point, though. Which might make a culture grow as a whole.

Of course, you can bring up extreme examples like Epidermodysplasia verruciformis.

erm, the end

edited in

The important issue is that the ladies involved in the original "On the Bright Side" project were looking to counter negative perceptions of disfigured bodies after surgery for breast cancer. They’d all been through despair after diagnosis and the fear that treatment would diminish them as women. Given that treatment may involve losing all or part of a breast, temporary loss of hair, bloating, etc., this is a perfectly natural reaction

I guess my point is that it doesn't have to be a natural reaction. We don't have to live in a society where it would be. It is something we as a whole create for each others and ourselves.

 

[Newton John]

I guess my point is that it doesn't have to be a natural reaction. We don't have to live in a society where it would be. It is something we as a whole create for each others and ourselves.

Maybe in some other idealised politically correct world the "On the Bright Side" ladies would have felt differently. However, being married to one of them and having met the others, I very much doubt it. In any case, the plain fact is that they did feel that way during their cancer treatment. They were just trying to produce some positive images of women who had suffered from breast cancer to help others in the same position. We're not talking about air-brushed super models, just a group of middle-aged women exposing their breast cancer scars for the benefit of others in the same position. They also had fun doing it and it helped them come to terms with the trauma they'd experienced.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

Did you know that the use of modern day deodorants increases the risk of getting breast cancer?
Did you know that oral sex can increase the risk of getting throat cancer?
Etc. etc.

Our environment is fundamentally sick.


I have not had the time to paruse your website in its entirety,
but it appears to me that the woman depicted did not have a breast surgically removed.
Can you give me the short-cut to understanding why this hasn't been done?

 

[Melkor]

Hey Cog, I'm not going to get into any arguing or the like.
I'm just going to show you this picture.

And inform you that she was 50 at the time of this picture. O-O

 

[Cognisant]

My point isn't that older people can't be attractive but rather they shouldn't expect themselves to be, well done you've found a picture of an actress, someone who eats the perfect diet, exercises every day and uses every trick possible to keep herself looking as young as possible for as long as possible.

Is that the value of a woman?
Are all other women somehow lesser if they don't look like that?

 

[Coolydudey]

My point isn't that older people can't be attractive but rather they shouldn't expect themselves to be, well done you've found a picture of an actress, someone who eats the perfect diet, exercises every day and uses every trick possible to keep herself looking as young as possible for as long as possible.

Is that the value of a woman?
Are all other women somehow lesser if they don't look like that?

Cog, I must admit I'm not a huge fan of your posts, but this time around you make a first class point, even if a bit wordily at first.

 

[TBerg]

The real problem is the American diet, which makes people unhealthy inside and outside. There is nothing wrong with aspiring to have a good-looking and healthy body. The gender wars just screw up this conversation every single time. Patriarchists demand a woman to whatever it takes, including unhealthy things, to be like a porn star, and anti-masculine feminists insist that women can do whatever they want with no social consequences whatsoever, ultimately becoming worse than Barney the dinosaur.

 

[Melkor]

My point isn't that older people can't be attractive but rather they shouldn't expect themselves to be, well done you've found a picture of an actress, someone who eats the perfect diet, exercises every day and uses every trick possible to keep herself looking as young as possible for as long as possible.

Is that the value of a woman?
Are all other women somehow lesser if they don't look like that?

Yes to all of the above!
All hail Sigweave!

 

[Newton John]

I have not had the time to paruse your website in its entirety,
but it appears to me that the woman depicted did not have a breast surgically removed.
Can you give me the short-cut to understanding why this hasn't been done?

Nicki doesn't fully explain this in her diary.

I understand that because her tumour was in the upper part of her naturally large breast so it was possible to remove it by wide area excision or lumpectomy. The tissue removed was tested to determine if there was a sufficient amount of surrounding healthy tissue taken away for safety. This found that there was not a sufficent margin for error and she had a second operation to remove considerably more tissue around the tumour site (after chemo and before radio therapy).

She was fortunate because her first consultant would have carried out a full masectomy and she herself wanted both breasts removed. However, she consulted a second surgeon because she was unhappy with defensive attitute of the first one who'd failed to diagnose her cancer at an early enough stage which put her at considerably greater risk. This failure was something she wanted to get over to other women who may be fobbed off by doctors when they believe something is wrong through her participation in "On the Bright Side" and her diary.

Her second consultant convinced her that there was no clinical justification to carry out anything more than a lumpectomy. I guess that the type of cancer is also an issue here, as some women have healthy breasts fully removed as a purely precautionary measure if they are genetically predisposed to a certain type of breast cancer. As she hints at in her diary learning that she did not require a full masectomy was a very nice birthday present, although we were far more concerned about how likely it was than her cancer would come back at a later stage.

After the chemo and radio therapies, Nicki had a reduction of her healthy breast to the same size as the breast affected by cancer. Some of the other women involved in the Bright Side project had had very difficult recontructions after full masectomies, so Nicki was fortunate in keeping most of her diseased breast.

To those who are discussing side issues here, please don't let your own hobby horses obscure the messages about breast cancer that Nicki was trying to get across.

 

[Newton John]

That's a really brave thing to do! Your wife's breasts look awesome and from what she said, it seemed like she enjoyed showing off her body. Good for you both!

Thank you for your kind comments, Paradoxparadigm.

 

[Newton John]

The design sucks

fucking black text over rainbow

and the colors

Thanks for the helpful advice - I've now tweaked the design in line with your comment and it's a big improvement.

Just to summarise and complete what I've said above, here is a quote from the website:

As writing my journal and my experiences as model were cathartic for me, I considered that I may be able to help others through this website. Therefore, my breast cancer diary's purpose is to encourage anyone affected by breast cancer by communicating the following messages:

• Never delay getting any suspicion checked out even if you've previously had an all-clear.
• Don't despair during the darkest days of diagnosis and treatment; you can come through it!
• Your greatest asset to help you get through this period is the support of family and friends.
• It is possible to reclaim your femininity afterwards and even to have a better self-image.
• Always look on the bright side of life and make the most of every day!

 

[J-man]

My point isn't that older people can't be attractive but rather they shouldn't expect themselves to be, well done you've found a picture of an actress, someone who eats the perfect diet, exercises every day and uses every trick possible to keep herself looking as young as possible for as long as possible.

Is that the value of a woman?
Are all other women somehow lesser if they don't look like that?

Why do you ask those particular questions?

I don't believe in objective value and I'm going out on a limb assuming you don't either (correct me if i'm wrong). I don't think of people (or anything really) as having value. The answer to your questions could be yes or no and neither answer would be more correct. If you're a dude trying to get his rocks off, that very well could be the value of a woman.