A proposal for the problem of INTP laziness

[dark+matters]

Not necessarily, he was talking about Ne dominants not Ne auxiliaries, where it may operate in a different manner. Ne is in opposition to Ti, being extraverted, which is why it is aux and suppressed, or ignored. On the other hand, taking a step back I agree with the idea, and it's more or less another way of looking at what we discussed above.

I'm curious to see what he publishes with his research, considering that he appears to have a good working knowledge of MBTI including the functions.

I'd like to read some of his work too. If I recall correctly, he said somewhere in the NF Geeks videos that he has already published a book or two on the subject. I'm encouraged that someone is actually working on quantifying some empirical information about how MBTI may or may not be valid. Maybe this could help us out as minority personalities.

 

[Mithrandir]

You might be selling yourself short when you say that the main difference is in your ability to show your workings. By incorporating Ti, you have probably achieved a more nuanced understanding of how all the components fit together.

Yeah, I agree. This was sort of in my mind when I said "paper trail", but let me elaborate.

We typically think of Ne as something naturally divergent, always expanding on the tangible possibilities of a concept, shooting out in all sorts of angles. While this is true, Ti is naturally distrusting of Ne insights until if validates it with logic. So I see Ne as this devil's advocate running around with a can of gasoline and a lighter, setting these new possibilities on fire:
"Here's a possibility!" Whoosh!
"Here's another one!" Whoosh!
"Oh look, another one!" Whoosh!
Ti is frantically running around trying to put out the fires Ne makes, and the only fire suppressant it has is logic. So Ti runs around to all these fires and either puts the fire out by validating the new concept logically or just lets it continue to burn if it doesn't pass the test. Then, from the concepts that were saved, Ne does its dirty work again while Ti follows it around with a fire hose of logic. Meanwhile Si is sitting on the sideline laughing its ass off while meticulously documenting the whole affair, notating the paths Ne takes and the fires that Ti puts out, creating a safe road map for Ti to follow in the future.

What this map resembles, then, is a family tree of ideas, where Ti can clearly see where one idea begets another idea, and that idea begets another, and so on, as well as paths cut short by a pile of burning rubble. This is why I think INTPs are such powerful thinkers. They have the ability to cut new paths with their Ne, while choosing the safe path with their Ti, and documenting the whole thing for posterity with their Si.

While accuracy to a safe path is high this way, such a process takes time. And it can take a lot of time if our Ti is locked in analysis paralysis and can't seem to put out any fires. INTPs therefore can appear externally slow and somewhat dim-witted due to the cautious and meticulous nature of their Ti. But in this process, the INTP ends up documenting a comprehensive understanding of groups of related concepts with their Si.

An Ni type, on the other hand, might ultimately come to the same type of conclusions, but the path of ideas is mostly dealt with subconsciously, which is calculated much quicker than conscious though. The side affect of this though, is that many of the interconnections between ideas remain hidden in the subconscious process, and they are left to reconnect the dots using either Te or Fe primarily, depending on the type. Furthermore, they might not have the same command over Si recall, which documents the whole affair, leaving a partially unfinished and partially obscured road map.

This is pretty much what I mean by the main differences between types and the "paper trail" of logic. I just formulated the imagery for this framework this morning in the shower, so take it with a grain of salt as I doubt I've had time to really flesh it out. On a side note, I can't remember if I washed my hair or not...

It's not my attitude, everything in the OP appeared at least 15 times in the ask Architect thread.

Unfortunately for you, it takes us INTPs visiting something at least 16 times before we even know what the hell it is we're really looking at.

 

[Architect]

Unfortunately for you, it takes us INTPs visiting something at least 16 times before we even know what the hell it is we're really looking at.

Or we like to chew over the same points again, and again as we niggle out some different angle on our theory. Suck on that Cherry!

 

[Mithrandir]

An INTP can approach the issue either through 'modulation' either their Ti or Ne motivations. With Ti that means simply forcing a focus on the task. I'd actually not recommend this. Mainly because it's a top down dictatorial approach that involves the suppression of Ne to a degree. Without adequate Ne support an INTP isn't open to those necessary divergent ideas, so it can become a 'death march'. Maybe the assignment isn't worth doing, or there are shortcuts that could be taken? With Ne 'offline' those important ideas can be missed.

Instead I'd recommend that the INTP use the Ti self directed obsession to focus Ne a little bit. Let it go outward but confine its focus to the task at hand. Set a boundary condition for Ne, a boundary for the job that it can't step beyond.

Setting a boundary on Ne based on its activity seems too much like the top down dictatorial approach you warned about in the previous paragraph, in that it still requires suppression of Ne to work, just to a lesser degree. To me Ne is too mischievous for this to be effective. I would suggest an actual compromise would be getting Ti in the habit of resetting Ne on a regular basis, letting it go off task but regularly force it to revisit the point at which it started following the tangent at a predetermined interval.

This would be like letting an inquisitive puppy go off the trail, but picking it up and putting back on the trail every 10 minutes or so if it hasn't found its way back by itself yet. That way Ne isn't being directly suppressed based on its activity, just reset at an arbitrary interval that both Ti and Ne agree on ahead of time.

 

[computerhxr]

Yes! I have been doing this type of thing every day for a few years. I am not using it as a motivation technique though - mostly it is more like an addiction. It is Fe gone wild. It doesn't help with actually being motivated to do work in the classical sense of sitting down at a computer and producing something - in fact it is my number one enemy when trying to focus on that type of work.

But it is a brilliant tool for learning new things (which I guess could also be seen as a type of work if you have a useful application for that knowledge). This is actually the main way I have been learning MBTI. I imagine I am talking to a particular personality type and explaining how their functional stack works. I even imagine myself drawing a chart on a whiteboard or on the back of a napkin.

This reinforces the idea that Fe is the underlying incentive that INTPs use to achieve things (even if it is entirely hypothetical Fe as in this case). These daydreams have allowed me to memorize (and form tentative opinions on) the functional stacks of all 16 types within a couple of weeks. I am sure I could have taken them on board more quickly by doing a cram session, but by letting Ti play a part in the process it seems like the information is more genuinely locked in and ready for action in the future.

Great I'm glad that you're using a similar technique! It is just a way for you to take a hard look at your beliefs instead of just having "faith" in them and rejecting ideas as false because they lack the capacity to understand.

The great thing about thinking is that it adds more neural matter each time energy passes through that part of the brain. This is why affirmations are so powerful. You are programming your brain and defining fuzzy beliefs.

I noticed many heavily left brained thinkers think in very black and white, binary terms of reality. Right brained thinkers are very abstract and lack the mental acuity that left brained thinkers have. If you are balanced between the two, then abstract ideas and concrete ideas become one in the same.

Take Einstein for example who is known for having balance between all 4 hemispheres of his brain. He imagined E = MC^2 while riding a bike. That is very abstract thinking and it resulted in a concrete mathematical formula. Someone that is unbalanced may fail to see the connection.

INTPs are very unbalanced and their "it's nonfactual so reject idea" (binary fact) systems cut off the right side of their brain because they do not trust it. They don't trust it because it hasn't been developed, and they let that part of their brain wither and die. Which is exactly why I like this system because it allows me to develop other parts of my brain using the internal thinking part that is strong for any INTP. It's like having an internal dialog between the left and right side of your brain.

Don't take offense. You don't know my back story being new. I don't have problems with it, I work about 12 hours a day. I'm more concerned for my INTP son which is why I research the INTP 'condition', which this post is the result of.

I'm not offended and I don't need your back story. I just don't value the opinion of people who are not open to others ideas. Children learn by interacting with their parents, and their problems are a reflection of your personality and it's associated problems. How can they learn skills that you reject and refuse to learn to use, and indoctrinate as a weakness to your kin?

 

[computerhxr]

I think this video by NF Geeks and brain researcher, Dario Nardi, has a great explanation for INTP affectations of laziness. (Skip ahead to 17 minutes and 20 seconds!)

I like that you posted this, and he touches on a point that I made earlier about training different parts of your brain. See 2:50s into the video.

http://youtu.be/WKOgJbgGAfo?t=2m50s

Also, this video touches on the same concept from 1:52 to . It was reccomended based on watching the video that you posted.
http://youtu.be/dbh5l0b2-0o?t=1m52s

It supports what I was saying at 3:00. "Specific neurons and neurotransmitters, such as norepinephrine, trigger a defensive state when we feel that our thoughts have to be protected from the influence of others." E.g. closed minded.

 

[Architect]

Take Einstein for example who is known for having balance between all 4 hemispheres of his brain.

Since EEG's and FMRI didn't exist in 1912 we have no idea how he thought. And besides brain region activity is at best a correlation, not causation. Two types will share 80% of their brain region activation on average, but not always. Some people will be the same type as others but active their brains differently.

It's all barking up the wrong tree. The neocortex is a reprogrammable biocomputer, looking at the regions doesn't get too far because of this.

He imagined E = MC^2 while riding a bike.

Actually it took about a decade of trying to puzzle it out. That little equation is just a simplification of a solution to a binomial equation*. The only insight in the theory is the assumption that c is constant. General Relativity is much more insightful, there the solution was to recast gravity as geometry.

That is very abstract thinking and it resulted in a concrete mathematical formula.

Einstein was a classicist/materialist through and through. Ironic since he effectively kicked off indeterminism with the Photoelectric Effect paper, which he got the Nobel for.

INTPs are very unbalanced

I don't buy this, INTP's are no less or more unbalanced than any other type. Einstein was unequivocally an INTP.

From another perspective we all are unbalanced - by design. The auxiliary unbalances and opposes the dominant, and the inferior is diametrically opposed to the dominant. This imbalance is what gives us psychic energy and impetus for growth (along with the sexual cycle). c.f. Lenore Thompson

* Reading his original paper (translated or in the original as I read it) is worthwhile. Very readable, unlike the GR paper.

 

[dark+matters]

LOL The science of laziness, explained in two minutes and drawn on a dry erase board:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd7wAithl7I

 

[dark+matters]

I like that you posted this, and he touches on a point that I made earlier about training different parts of your brain. See 2:50s into the video.

http://youtu.be/WKOgJbgGAfo?t=2m50s

Also, this video touches on the same concept from 1:52 to . It was reccomended based on watching the video that you posted.
http://youtu.be/dbh5l0b2-0o?t=1m52s

It supports what I was saying at 3:00. "Specific neurons and neurotransmitters, such as norepinephrine, trigger a defensive state when we feel that our thoughts have to be protected from the influence of others." E.g. closed minded.

Holy strawberries, Batman! That was an intense documentary! Not entirely sure what I think about it though... although I am waaaay interested in mirror neurons.

 

[Jungle]

This is why I think INTPs are such powerful thinkers. They have the ability to cut new paths with their Ne, while choosing the safe path with their Ti, and documenting the whole thing for posterity with their Si.

That rings true to me.

 

[ToughRye]

I find it hilarious when I read a post such as this one:

You should set big, long-term goals, and lots of extremely achieveable little goals to turn discipline into a habit. With the succes of these little goals you build positive reinforcement, exercise that muscle and turn achieving things (according to your definition of achievement) into second nature.

Example of weight-loss:
Long-term goal: To lose X amount in Y days (make those specific numbers)
Eg of little goal: Substitute today's Coke with water.

[I believe a P that can function as a J has the best of both worlds because he's capable and can turn his J-ness of whenever he wants, something a J would find more difficult.]

So basically:
1. Define success
2. Set specific long-term goal in line with 1.
3. Set lots of little goals in line with 2.
4. Reward yourself after accomplishing each goal (serves as incentive before and positive reinforcement after)
5. Readjust goals as needed, without guilt.

But as a perceiver, how do you choose which goal is the most important one?

I will try to bring some practical tips into this thread. I find ironic that we INTPs often identify the problem but fail to come up with a solution. We rely on other people to identify a problem to be solved or to make up a plan.

To repeat what others have said, the functional stack of INTPs is

Ti - analyze things
Ne - generate ideas
Si - store ideas
Fe - help others, bring harmony to the world

Our shadow functions, i.e. what is invisible or not obvious to us, are

Te - make a plan to solve problems
Ni - find a goal or problem to solve
Se - physical pleasure, material rewards
Fi - personal feelings

(Please correct me if my simplistic descriptions are wrong)

We INTPs are often clueless about the future (Ni) and how to make a plan (Te). My goal is to show that we can use Ne to "simulate" how to make a plan (Te) or set a goal (Ni) for our pleasure. We can do it, but do it more slowly than TJs. As an INTP, I have often felt the nagging feeling of doom and personal failure due to my inferior Fe when I fail to live to the expectations of others.


1. Brainstorming

I won't belabor the discussion.
Second, the aspect of Ne you mentioned regarding divergence. In the process of brainstorming the problem, this is where I end up wandering far away... again, more interesting avenues of exploration, and I have to keep reining it back in while giving it enough leash to fully explore things.

This post is right on target. Do some brainstorming on your own, let your Ne explore. Ask someone else if there is something that you need to discuss.

2. Take a pause

There are three variations of this.

a. The P-J switch method

The P-J Switch Method
Work yourself up into a mental frenzy and let your inner "J" take over; make sure to have all the needed materials, information and etc nearby so that you don't drift back into your natural "P" state.

Stop planning, get started doing something. There is that phrase "learn by doing". For us, there is "plan by doing". Your Ne will have worked something out after a while.

E.g., work hard 50 min, then take a 10 min pause.

b. The task switch method

If you are doing task A but you are stuck somewhere due to some problem and do not know how to proceed, then switch to task B. Once you get and "aha-moment", then you have an idea of how to solve task A.

c. Do something fun

A trick that has worked for me in the past is flip flopping. By this I mean I start out doing something fun (playing a video game for example) for a set period and then for a set period doing something less fun that I know I need to do. The period should be long enough to benefit you but short enough that you have several flip flops.

At one point I was burning the candle at both ends trying to finish up a project for work. I was utterly disgusted with myself and worried I would miss my deadline. This trick helped me in final stretch of that project. I just alternated between playing a video game for an hour and coding for an hour. The coding was more bearable because I knew I would get a break in an hour. Honestly I would say I was more panicky than worried, but once I started doing this I got in a groove with it and the panick went away.

Bring some relief to your inner sanctum, take a pause from boredom.

3. Intrinsic motivation

Tell yourself that you are going to come up with the "coolest" or "funniest" solution, or choose whatever subjective adjective that suits you.

http://eilamona.tumblr.com/post/110170958562/hello-i-was-wondering-if-you-could-help-me-on-my

 

[ToughRye]

Oh, there is more ...

4. Make of list of possessions

There is the old tip of making a list of things to do. This is helpful, but mainly for Js, and less for Ps, I presume.

I tried a variation of this for Ps: make a list of things that you own. All possessions are listed by group. What I own reflects what my Si needs and wants, so taking a look at this list, I let my Ne wander off to make plans for the future. Just ignore the small things that are not worth listing.

5. Develop your Fe

This is a tough nut to crack for INTPs and ISTPs. There are many ways to do it. I find that reading the book Emotional Intelligence 2.0 by Travis Bradberry and Jean Greaves has helped me along the way. There is also that alpha-male thing, but I find it to be too much of a distraction from my rich inner world

 

[Architect]

This is a tough nut to crack for INTPs and ISTPs. There are many ways to do it. I find that reading the book Emotional Intelligence 2.0 by Travis Bradberry and Jean Greaves has helped me along the way. There is also that alpha-male thing, but I find it to be too much of a distraction from my rich inner world

I think it's impossible to really develop your inferior because you can't be A (e.g. Ti) without not being B (it's opposite Fe). At best you can learn behaviors (e.g. 'handlers') that cushion it better. I prefer "Learn how to mitigate your inferior".

It's easy to mistake our mitigations for developing our inferior, but at root the inferior is a baby and always will be in my estimation.

 

[Spirit]

Indulging Fe directly has been a bad idea for me. This shot you are talking does turn out well.

After testing it in my professional life, the results have been lackluster, awkward and unreliable. You get lulled into thinking you can use it well but people pick up on it because it looks, acts and seems off.

If you have been around an Enfj, you can see how fucked up and off target an inferior Fe user really is.

 

[Grayman]

4. Make of list of possessions

There is the old tip of making a list of things to do. This is helpful, but mainly for Js, and less for Ps, I presume.

I tried a variation of this for Ps: make a list of things that you own. All possessions are listed by group. What I own reflects what my Si needs and wants, so taking a look at this list, I let my Ne wander off to make plans for the future. Just ignore the small things that are not worth listing.

That sounds monotonous and I would rather measure the average amount shit that collects on the outter rim of the average sized asshole. I may never use the information but at least it would be new.

I actually have been practicing lists more and it helps but it I find that details make the whole thing become overwhelming and constraining and can actually deter me from doing anything at all. I only make small lists of aprox 5 items without any details and only of things I would likely forget. Other thigns I might write down but then throw away the list. The act of writing it down puts it in my visual mind and the disposal of the list makes me feel 'released' to act upon the information in a way that i most effective at the moment instead of feeling like I have to plan everything out a to b.

 

[Plopsypoodle]

I'm naturally really lazy. one this that gets me off my ass is yelling at myself and saying "your pathetic! you can't do a simple cleaning job? oh come on. You're better than that. Get off that lazy ass of yours and do some simple work," basically, I use my one if my bads to my advantage. I tend to have a lot of pride and dislike accepting defeat, So I tell myself off, make myself a little angry so pride takes over and I do my job XD


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