A proper introduction

[FusionKnight]

Okay okay, I guess I'll introduce myself now, since I've been wrestling with some epic threads for awhile, and people are wondering "just who is this profoundly amazing genius of a person, anyway".

Okay, I'm kidding. But I'll try and give you an idea of who I am.

I wonder what facts I should share; what might be relevant, and what not. Is it important where I'm from, how old I am, my gender, my profession, my education, etc? Knowing how important and strong perceptions are, whatever I say here is going to put an image of me in your minds, and affect everything I say from here on out. Uff da... do I really want to do this?

My real name is Leif, like the viking. I guess I think of myself as "Leif", so you might as well do the same. No need to remember it though; FusionKnight is an old handle, and more than adequate to reference my online avatar.

I live in the United States of America, in the Midwestern state of Minnesota (famous for hot, humid summers and long, bitter winters). I've lived here all my life, though I've traveled a bit throughout the U.S. and a bit through Germany. Both of my parents grew up on farms in the nearby state of Wisconsin, so that heritage is strong in me, even though I myself am a city-slicker.

I was going to describe some of my INTP qualities, but I suspect we all share most of those.

My hobbies include painting and drawing, playing and composing music (violin, piano, mandolin), writing fiction and non-fiction, architecture, reading everything there is to read on Wikipedia, space exploration and colonization, reading science fiction, debating and discussing, backpacking and hiking, downhill skiing, shooting (handguns), computer gaming and programming, gardening (vegetables and flowers), inventing, cooking (gourmet), politics, etc.

My greatest hope is that there will be a mountain in heaven, impossibly high and steep, covered in thick, soft, green foliage, where I can be alone with God, where I can sculpt for his pleasure statues out of the living rock, create a dwelling place that radiates his beauty, climb and strive against the created world, to work my muscles and my mind to their fullest extent for a smile from my creator, where I can sit and have a conversation with him about a blade of grass for a century, then laugh and tumble with him down the slopes.

My greatest fear is that my hope is unfounded, and that God isn't that kind of God.

Some of my favorite books are:
Till We Have Faces by C.S. Lewis
Perelandra by C.S. Lewis
The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand
The Silmarillion by J.R.R. Tolkein
Tunnel in the Sky by Robert A. Heinlein
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein
Doublestar by Robert A. Heinlein
Earthlight by Arthur C. Clarke

Some of my favorite TV shows are:
Doctor Who (especially Tom Baker and Christopher Eccleston)
Firefly
Babylon 5
Gundam X
Neon Genesis Evangelion
The Outer Limits (the old one)

Some of my favorite movies are:
Blade Runner
Wall-E
The Matrix
The Matrix: Reloaded
The Animatrix
Macross Plus
North by Northwest
Memento
Arsenic and Old Lace
His Girl Friday
Murder, He Said

Some of my favorite videogames are:
The Marathon Trilogy
The Half-life series
The Legend of Zelda (NES)
Breath of Fire III (PS1)
Chrono Trigger (SNES)
Flashback (Genesis)

My profession is Product Development ("Design") Engineering. My responsibilities include quoting new products and modifications to old products, conducting engineering reviews on new and changing products, maintaining engineering documents, bringing a product from customer request to the manufacturing floor. My education includes a B.S. in Mechanical Engineering.

In the past I've worked as a muralist, a musician, a teacher, a web-programmer, a gardener, paintball referee, and a researcher.

I speak two languages: English and German.

Some people I admire (for character, ideas, or accomplishments): C.S. Lewis, Galileo Galilie, Ron Paul, Buckminster Fuller, Frederick Chopin, Eric Satie, J.S. Bach, Thomas Jefferson, Frank Lloyd Wright, etc.

Some life aspirations: publish a novel, hold public office, get a piece of music published, design and build my own off-grid house, become independently wealthy, homeschool kids (mine or other's), invent a useful device, grow a braided viking-beard, learn Mandarin, travel to Mars, cook a meal for a King, live in a tree-house, etc.

I've been married for 4 years and have no kids and no pets.

I hate getting up in the morning if I've had less than 10 hours of sleep.

I've experienced every level of success in acedemia, A through F.

I'm afraid I'll never amount to anything.

 

[Decaf]

Okay okay, I guess I'll introduce myself now, since I've been wrestling with some epic threads for awhile, and people are wondering "just who is this profoundly amazing genius of a person, anyway".

I think you forgot to mention that you're a mind reader

Uff da... do I really want to do this?

No, you don't.

My hobbies include painting and drawing, playing and composing music (violin, piano, mandolin), writing fiction and non-fiction, architecture, reading everything there is to read on Wikipedia, space exploration and colonization, reading science fiction, debating and discussing, backpacking and hiking, downhill skiing, shooting (handguns), computer gaming and programming, gardening (vegetables and flowers), inventing, cooking (gourmet), politics, etc.

I can identify with most of that, but I guess I haven't really explored the whole gardening/cooking area. I have, however, read numerous wikipedia entries about them

Some of my favorite books are:
... The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand

Don't let them know over at INTPc. They'll bite your head off for heresy.

Some of my favorite TV shows are:
...Firefly

I knew there was somethin' I liked about you

In the past I've worked as a muralist, a musician, a teacher, a web-programmer, a gardener, paintball referee, and a researcher.

Sounds like you're building a Jeffersonian resume

Some people I admire (for character, ideas, or accomplishments): ... Thomas Jefferson...

Speak of the devil.

Some life aspirations: publish a novel, hold public office, get a piece of music published, design and build my own off-grid house, become independently wealthy, homeschool kids (mine or other's), invent a useful device, grow a braided viking-beard, learn Mandarin, travel to Mars, cook a meal for a King, live in a tree-house, etc.

I think we need to make a thread of these lists for all of us. I think these lists are often a good way of getting into our heads because the means to these ends are what we think about most of the time.

I'm afraid I'll never amount to anything.

We live in an ESTJ culture. I think most of us fear this.

 

[eudemonia]

Thank you for that Fusion Knight. It is really satisfying to gain a sense of who I am talking to (for a large part of my day!). I get the impression of someone who is at one with themselves - who radiates calmness - which is surprising in someone so young (I have assumed you're mid 20's).

I was also overwhelmed by your hobbies. I have never been one for hobbies really. I just get obsessed by one thing and eventually get bored of it and never go back again. I love those moments when you find a great TV series and watch it every week (the last one I liked was '24' - sorry its probably naff - and Cranford, a period drama on BBC). Also when you come across a great film (didn't you love Serenity or waiting every Christmas for LOTR to come out - but that is so rare). A large part of my life over the past 15 years has been taken up by kids.

I was also surprised by the fact that you don't seem to have travelled widely. But there again you seem content in your current surroundings.

I have been wondering how to reply really. I think Decaf's idea is a good one. So, over to you Decaf....or anyone else for that matter...

 

[Dissident]

Weird, I assumed he he was in his mid 40s

I share a lot of those tastes, that interesting.

 

[eudemonia]

OK so I'm going to have a go. I won't use the same format as Fusion as I think the format reflects you as much as what you say.

My name is Karen. This is pretty boring. But my brothers were named after great people: Karl, after Karl Marx and Keir after Keir Hardie. I was named after my mother's hairdresser's au pair who was from Sweden.

Both my parents were left wing. My father was a communist, my mother a socialist. They were not educated - both left school at 15. My father's views in particular had a deep and profound effect on me. I was extremely left wing at school. But I went to school with aliens and so spent my childhood totally alone. This was not good for me and I became extremely arrogant, proud and aloof - all defense mechanisms, as I later realised. Girls are not normally arrogant, proud, aloof communists. It dawned on me one day that I was different.

Then, somehow (long story) I ended up going to Cambridge. Different class - all aliens. I became even more arrogant, proud, aloof oh, and communist. But I met my future husband there and he managed to calm me down a bit.

Then he and I backpacked around the world. We started our 'honeymoon' by staying in a rat and cockroach infested YMCA in New York. Then we travelled through the south - which strangely has affected me always, as I long to go back there - and down through Mexico, and central America. We taught in Costa Rica but had adventures in Nicaragua and Honduras and Belize. I wanted to help in the revolution in Nicaragua but they needed scientists, not political sociology graduates.

From Tahiti, NZ, Australia, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Burma and India we found our way home.

I decided that in order to contribute to 'world peace' I needed to become a banker - big mistake. Then I went into training. It was Big Bang and I had a great time travelling all over the world. But I lost my way. I'm not commercial and I don't really care for organisations and their obsessive ESTJness. I did a PhD looking at how adults learn through change. Wrote a book. Then I lost my way again. And now I'm starting teaching at a universtity where I hope to regain my identity - it's working so far.

I have never had hobbies. I've sort of been interested in my work quite a bit but not deeply and profoundly like some people. I should have learned a lot more in my profession than I have. I should have done courses in Gestalt and psychotherapy and NLP but its really strange that whenever I booked a programme, something would happen. On a number of occasions I had to cancel because my daughter was embroiled in some crisis. But although I've been interested in psychology - that whole 'F' approach felt very alien. I tried it but I felt that I wasn't being true to myself. I suppose I have devoted my life to learning and growing myself, trying to understand myself and adapting to environments that were, well, alien.

When I became a parent I had to mix with other mums - the most difficult thing I've ever had to do. But it normalised me. I relaxed. I discovered fun. It was OK and I grew as a human being.

Bringing up my children has been the toughest thing I've done. My daughter is an ENTP REBEL. She has done everything you would not want your daughter to have done and probably did it all by the age of 15. She has made me cry more than anyone or anything in the world. I sent her to India over the summer and she's begun to realise just how lucky she is. My son's a dream but I suppose that will come to an end soon. I became a Christian because of my children. I liked being brought up with a strong sense of values even if they were communist. It gave me a sense of purpose, identity and a moral compass which stays to me till this day. I couldn't bring my children up as communists but I thought I'd offer them the opportunity to believe. Since we're an atheistic society, I knew the dominant culture would get them in the end, so I just wanted to offer them an alternative. They are both agnostic at the moment.

My greatest hope is to be of use to someone. My greatest fear is to do a parachute jump.

 

[Decaf]

OK so I'm going to have a go.

Maybe this thread should be renamed Life Stories? I think that's a great idea btw (the thread, I'm not complimenting myself... I swear ). Despite my opinion from the gender listing thread I feel like we've all developed a strong appreciation for each others opinions, so learning the background behind is more likely to influence our view of others that remind us of our friends here than the other way around.

My name is Karen. This is pretty boring. But my brothers were named after great people: Karl, after Karl Marx and Keir after Keir Hardie. I was named after my mother's hairdresser's au pair who was from Sweden.

Now I'm terribly curious as to how an au pair ended up in that group. She must have been a pretty impressive woman.

Girls are not normally arrogant, proud, aloof communists.

ROFL... Well put I suppose unless you live in China that is. Not sure if arrogance is that prevalent there <shrug>

... New York... through the south... down through Mexico, and central America. We taught in Costa Rica but had adventures in Nicaragua and Honduras and Belize... Tahiti, NZ, Australia, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Burma and India we found our way home.

... ... ... ... I'm too jealous to say anything... gimme a moment... ...

Wrote a book.

? And it would be called?

But although I've been interested in psychology - that whole 'F' approach felt very alien.

Ugh, I'm right there with you. As much as the subject is fascinating it feels like one of the primary applications is off limits. It makes me feel like I can't do any of it when I try to apply it as a counselor.

They are both agnostic at the moment.

I know I'm very biased on this account, but I feel like if your kids have a strong moral core and a curiosity about spirituality (often expressed as agnosticism, though not always), then I think you've done a wonderful job.

I'll have to make sure to ask my questions here when I eventually become a parent (that is if we haven't all moved over to virtual reality forums, and subsequently chased all the INTPs away).

 

[eudemonia]

Ugh, I'm right there with you. As much as the subject is fascinating it feels like one of the primary applications is off limits. It makes me feel like I can't do any of it when I try to apply it as a counselor.

Thanks for your comments Decaf. As to counselling - well it depends on what type of counselling. INTPs can make great coaches because they can help people make sense of things and they are not afraid to challenge. They also tend to identify and use cognitive behavioural therapy very well. However, Gestalt, psycho-therapy, I think you have to inhabit an 'F' world - but someone may prove me wrong. One of the problems with coaching for me was that I got bored of it - you really have to focus on process and I like content. I have a mixture of motivations in me - I like to use my 'thinking' to help people. But if I end up helping people without exercising my thinking very much, I get tired and bored. You might want to think about coaching - I think you'd make a good coach and its a skill that you can use in almost any context from management to children.

Now, over to you!

 

[Decaf]

OK, I'll take the baton.

So depending on who you ask my name is Sam. I also go by Jonas, but that's another story. I have an older brother named David (get it? Biblical references ftw!), a slightly younger step brother named Jeremy and a younger step sister named Jennifer. Obviously the step- part means the reference don't follow through, but that's not my fault. I was almost named Nathan, but again, another story.

For kindergarten my mom homeschooled me, taking my brother and me to manufacturing plants, bread factories, kitchens of restaurants as well as the basics of reading and math. Probably one of my most productive years in education outside of college. Even though I don't remember much of it that experience has affected my perspective a lot.

So for a quick summary, my parents divorced when I was around 9 or 10 (I forget which) and remarried a few years later. I lived with my dad (ISTP), so that meant I had to get used to my stepmom (ENFP). That seems odd, but they're both very religious, so the commonality holds them together, as well as my dad being nearly impossible to dislike and my stepmom being a mother hen. It was a good experience for me being forced to deal with her. Through the course of that relationship I had to learn how to extravert myself despite wanting to spend all my evenings playing a text-based MMORPG.

I took an Earth Science class in 7th grade where the teacher tried to convert us to atheism through not very convincing arguments on evolution. That class made me hate science. In 11th grade I took a chemistry class with a great guy who liked to yell, called people asenine for doing stupid things and liked to demo things burning in interesting ways. That class made my love science. I suppose the combination helped me realize a lot of what science is. Its people trying to figure things out cooperatively. Some scientists are idiots, some are jerks, some are charming, some are inspiring.

Anyway, I dismissed applying for colleges my senior year because I thought it was a broken system. That we would be required to go to college to get a decent job. So without a college to go to I graduated and suddenly realized I needed to do something so that I wouldn't be living with my parents. So I applied to a 1-year bible school in Cannon Beach, OR. It was a great year (built homes in Mexico, got my life threatened by a jealous boyfriend), but afterward I couldn't go to church anymore. Over the course of that year I'd read through the entire bible and studied dozens of books extensively as well as different facets of modern Christian theology. I started seeing patterns of practicality in introducing religion to an otherwise divisible people. I started seeing how little studying many of the "leaders" of the church had done (obviously the pastor was well read, but often more than half the church staff hadn't finished the bible once). So I started exploring alternatives.

After that I came back realizing I still had to do something else, so I joined the military. I was going to join the Army National Guard, but at the time my best friend was a recruiter, so he drove me from his office to the Air National Guard and I signed up there. Now that's a good friend. I was a wideband/satcom communications technician for the next 6 years, and let me tell you. That's a good job. You don't run the radio, you run the communications network (if the system ain't broke its time to watch TV and surf the internet), plus you have something to trade because you have phones that can call home, and everyone wants to.

So after a year spent in San Antonio and Augusta training I came back home and applied to U of O (primarily a financial decision because it was in state and I didn't want to go into more debt than I had to). Moved to Eugene, spent the next four years studying chemistry at a leisurely pace (I had credits from the bible school and military, so without a minor I averaged 15 credits to graduate in 4 years) and paying for it with veteran benefits and my weekend pay. That's where I met Mai (we worked together for 2 years before I asked her on a date... took a while to get up my courage ).

After that I attended a year of graduate school at the same place and moved back up to Portland for an internship as an engineer.

To back track I first head about MBTI at bible school and its been something of an underground movement ever since. Now I tend to list it as my top hobby, followed by video games, guitar, movies, fiction reading, snowboarding in that order. I don't consider it a hobby, but I love teaching more than most anything else, and since coming to accept that as a legitimate goal has strongly influenced my intended life direction.

And that pretty much brings us to the present. I'm a libertarian, veteran, agnostic/UU, 27 year old, white male nerd with dreams of changing the way the world thinks about the mind and each other.

 

[Jennywocky]

Wow, how interesting that the INTPs here seem more spiritually minded than at INTPc.

(That forum takes a more jaded approach to spiritually, especially Christianity.)

 

[Decaf]

Wow, how interesting that the INTPs here seem more spiritually minded than at INTPc.

(That forum takes a more jaded approach to spiritually, especially Christianity.)

Having been one of the people chased away from INTPc, they seem to have a jaded approach to most things. They insulted me repeatedly for describing my Libertarian viewpoints in their thread on Socialism with only the briefest mention regarding the content of what I had to say. I'm much happier here. Even though many still don't agree with me, at least we keep things civil regardless of the topic (or try to).

 

[FusionKnight]

As Bertie Wooster once misquoted, "I may not like your mustache, but I'll defend to the death your right to wear it!"

 

[Jennywocky]

Having been one of the people chased away from INTPc, they seem to have a jaded approach to most things. They insulted me repeatedly for describing my Libertarian viewpoints in their thread on Socialism with only the briefest mention regarding the content of what I had to say. I'm much happier here. Even though many still don't agree with me, at least we keep things civil regardless of the topic (or try to).

I noticed.

This forum is definitely smaller but more cozy and friendly -- the people seem to respect each other... or at least make the effort.

 

[fullerene]

yuck... I feel like I'm about to post way more information about myself than I ever want on the internet. haha if someone out there comes by this page and didn't know I was me before, they ought to now. Ahh well... for nia's sake, I guess

real name's Dave... I'm a sophomore at Carnegie Mellon University (US... in Pennsylvania), where I'm majoring in Physics and Philosophy. I finally "hit my limit" with doing stuff this year, taking one too many classes I think, but I could easily graduate in 3.5 years--possibly 3 if I don't hit any walls. The truth of the world blends together in my head--fusing philosophy, physics, theology, and psychology until I'm not sure whether or not I'm actually finding connections or just inventing them where loose relationships exist. I didn't do preschool or pre-K, did K-6th in the public school, then 7-12 in a Christian one. The atmosphere was oppressive in both, but in different ways. Public school everyone would kinda fight to fit into the normal social image... Christian school there was be an undercurrent of fighting to fit into a "good Christian" mold of morality--although you could be yourself pretty much otherwise. The theology in the middle school was awful; one of my biggest worries is the fact that I didn't realize it til I was a freshman. In high school I had one guy for basic doctrine, realized the difference between what he taught and what I'd heard before, and exhausted the bible department taught there. He was teaching mostly to help him study for his comprehensive exames for his doctorite in the history of intellectual thought in seminary... so the concepts were, without question, deeper than your cursory glance at things. He provided about the base 15-25% of my theology/worldview, and I built up the rest from my own experiences.

I go through cycles of noticeable arrogance and extreme timidity in my thoughts--no matter how sure I sound through text, this is one of my much more timid times. People like timidness better socially, but confidence better in jobs (or so I'm told)... but I'll never be anything but me in either case.

I don't trust myself in any way, shape, or form. Thoughts are subject to brain chemistry, feelings shift at the drop of a hat, and my will is nearly non-existent (unless someone tries to push me to be something I'm not...). If I had nothing else to live for, I would have absolutely killed myself by now--except perhaps that my will is too weak, I'm not sure because it's never come up. 9 out of 10 situations are better if I don't get involved in them--regardless of whether my idea/solution was a good one or how good my intentions were.

I've been a huge music lover for about 5 years now. I play the guitar, bass, and drums pretty well. I can sing and do the keyboard too... but not at a performance level or anything, even for a jam band. There's hardly ever a time when music isn't playing if I'm around with my laptop or a guitar.

I desperately, desperately need something to do that doesn't amount to nothing in the end. The only actual things I can find that feel worthwhile are the ones that only feel worthwhile. I do them because I enjoy them, but my head says they're equally meaningless. I would sooner traverse a farmland in a far away country, going from house to house asking if people would feed me if I helped them out with whatever they needed done that day, than I would working at... er... any job that I've ever considered before. Right now some kind of scientific research tops that list... but I have many years of schooling to go through before anyone will pay me for that, so I want to go out and work in another country--which is hard without the money or any real foreign language skills (basic spanish, but not good at it). Actually, eudemonia, how did you even find that farm you sent your daughter(?) to? That kind of thing sounds like my dream, at least for a summer or two, but I have no idea where to even start looking for something like that.

My free time is basically filled by playing games when I'm with people... mostly cards (Spades, bridge, a variant of Chinese Poker some kids here made up, euchre, etc.), some video (Smash Bros Brawl, Starcraft), and occasionally board (Risk). When alone I write here, and (probably most often of all) sit and think with music in the background. It's great if you've never tried it--if you're tired you'll sleep, if you're not you'll think about things, and if your brain is dead then there's music playing to listen to. I have not been bored for more than an hour or two (at most, until my brain finds something else to think about) in a very, very long time.

I feel like I could go on forever... but I've gotta cut it short eventually.

 

[Decaf]

I desperately, desperately need something to do that doesn't amount to nothing in the end.

I was going to reply to your whole post, but this sentence struck me and I just needed to say that this has become the center of my life. Maybe that's something we should talk about more... how we hope the things we do will make an impact in the world.

 

[Jordan~]

On a sidenote, I notice you said "uff da" - is your family Italian? The only other person I know who says anything similar ("uffa!") is Sicilian.

 

[FusionKnight]

On a sidenote, I notice you said "uff da" - is your family Italian? The only other person I know who says anything similar ("uffa!") is Sicilian.

Haha! No, "Uff Da" is an Norwegian-American phrase meaning roughly the equivalent of "Dude" in southern California, or "Oi" for those who speak Yiddish.

 

[Decaf]

Haha! No, "Uff Da" is an Norwegian-American phrase meaning roughly the equivalent of "Dude" in southern California, or "Oi" for those who speak Yiddish.

So THAT's where it came from! That's makes perfect sense. I knew it was the equivalent of "Oi", but I guess I picked it up from my step-dad who was raised Norwegian-American.

 

[fullerene]

I was going to reply to your whole post, but this sentence struck me and I just needed to say that this has become the center of my life. Maybe that's something we should talk about more... how we hope the things we do will make an impact in the world.

aww thanks... I wouldn't be opposed or anything, but I'm not even sure what I mean by that. It probably came out sounding so mid-life-crisis-y... but I didn't really define the question all that well. "Working such that our achievements outlast us" seems to be the default, common-sense answer to "amounting to something"... but I feel like I could achieve Descartes' fame and influence, and still wonder if it was worthwhile. Impacting the world is a noble pursuit, but I'm not even sure yet that I want anything I do to affect it on such a large scale.

 

[grey matters]

Wow, so many INTP's who are Christian's (or at least were at one point or another). I was begining to think that Athiesm and INTP were synonimous. I have been around a lot of NT types and the closest I got to anything religious was a few spiriturally minded athiests. This is something new to me.

Decaf I sympathise with you. I don't mean to sound arrogant, I am just being INTP blunt when I say that Most of the time I know and understand more (and I mean a whole lot more) about the subject that any given preacher or bible study leader is talking about then they themselves do. It makes me cringe for them.

 

[Jennywocky]

Wow, so many INTP's who are Christian's (or at least were at one point or another). I was begining to think that Athiesm and INTP were synonimous. I have been around a lot of NT types and the closest I got to anything religious was a few spiriturally minded athiests. This is something new to me.

I had always thought "agnosticism" would be more accurate for an INTP -- since the basic gist of being INTP is that nothing can be proven either way, there is always SOME information that is not known and always new information is coming to light. Tie that with the aversion to commitment to a particular intellectual stance (and focusing instead of process), and I do not know why some INTPs chose a more atheist stance. Agnosticism seems more apropo.

Decaf I sympathise with you. I don't mean to sound arrogant, I am just being INTP blunt when I say that Most of the time I know and understand more (and I mean a whole lot more) about the subject that any given preacher or bible study leader is talking about then they themselves do. It makes me cringe for them.

Well.... you challenge the ideas rather than holding to them as the sacred cow. For many people, intellect is applied towards justifying the status quo answer. I do remember going church hunting 10 years ago and walking into a local evangelical church and realized quickly that it just was not a good place to go. They all drove the same model of car, they all dressed the same, they all asked the same generic uncreative questions during the sunday school lesson... and I could predict what the answers would be before anyone offered them. It was all By The Book.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

"shivers"

 

[eudemonia]

For kindergarten my mom homeschooled me, taking my brother and me to manufacturing plants, bread factories, kitchens of restaurants as well as the basics of reading and math. Probably one of my most productive years in education outside of college. Even though I don't remember much of it that experience has affected my perspective a lot.

Wow, all credit to your mother. I did think of homeschooling my daughter because she didn't fit the system at all. But the amount of time involved and the pure dedication needed made me decide against it. It would have taken over my whole life. I'm curious as to how you feel it affected you.

So I applied to a 1-year bible school in Cannon Beach, OR. It was a great year (built homes in Mexico, got my life threatened by a jealous boyfriend), but afterward I couldn't go to church anymore. Over the course of that year I'd read through the entire bible and studied dozens of books extensively as well as different facets of modern Christian theology. I started seeing patterns of practicality in introducing religion to an otherwise divisible people. I started seeing how little studying many of the "leaders" of the church had done (obviously the pastor was well read, but often more than half the church staff hadn't finished the bible once).

I am really struck by how many people on this forum (and more widely in the US ????) have lost their faith through a combination of rational analysis and their experience of 'Religion' and religious people. In the UK people are agnostic/atheist by default. You tend to be seen as a bit weird if you're a Christian - you get used to the pitying glances; its being condescended to by someone who doesn't know what the heck he's talking about that gets my goat. Rational analysis and taking time to even think about religion - most people don't bother - brought me to faith. Maybe the US has to go through a revolt against fundamentalism in order to discover a new kind of faith - but I would say that wouldn't I because Brian McClaren (A New Kind of Christian) is my hero

After that I came back realizing I still had to do something else, so I joined the military. I was going to join the Army National Guard, but at the time my best friend was a recruiter, so he drove me from his office to the Air National Guard and I signed up there. Now that's a good friend.

Too true - an INTP with a good friend - I hope you keep in touch!

That's where I met Mai (we worked together for 2 years before I asked her on a date... took a while to get up my courage ).

I didn't see you as the shy type - she's a lucky lady

but I love teaching more than most anything else, and since coming to accept that as a legitimate goal has strongly influenced my intended life direction.

I kept resisting the obvious insight that I was a natural teacher because it was too damn poorly paid. It was only when I was extremely unhappy I decided to go 'sod it' again and give in to my nature. Now I'm a lot happier but my friend, who left school at 16 and is a yoga teacher, now earns more than I do. The guy I am working with used to work for Bayer chemicals in a senior job and he told me - you have to go through this process of disentangling your self esteem from your earning capacity and what goes with it (like nice clothes, nice shoes - oops).....

 

[NoID10ts]

I had always thought "agnosticism" would be more accurate for an INTP -- since the basic gist of being INTP is that nothing can be proven either way, there is always SOME information that is not known and always new information is coming to light. Tie that with the aversion to commitment to a particular intellectual stance (and focusing instead of process), and I do not know why some INTPs chose a more atheist stance. Agnosticism seems more apropo.

So why aren't you an agnostic?

 

[FusionKnight]

I would sooner traverse a farmland in a far away country, going from house to house asking if people would feed me if I helped them out with whatever they needed done that day, than I would working at... er... any job that I've ever considered before. Right now some kind of scientific research tops that list... but I have many years of schooling to go through before anyone will pay me for that, so I want to go out and work in another country--which is hard without the money or any real foreign language skills (basic spanish, but not good at it). Actually, eudemonia, how did you even find that farm you sent your daughter(?) to? That kind of thing sounds like my dream, at least for a summer or two, but I have no idea where to even start looking for something like that.

Have you ever heard of or considered Engineers Without Borders? It's an organization that does public works sort of projects around the world in undeveloped areas. It's a volunteer organization (as far as I can tell) but it might be a good place for you to investigate, or make some connections. It combines the science/technology with service and travel...

I was very interested in this organization, but once you're not a student anymore, and you've got a job, a wife, and house payments, it's hard to just up and leave for 6 months, or even 6 weeks.

 

[Jennywocky]

So why aren't you an agnostic?

Actually, I am.

I can best describe myself as a "Christian existentialist" or "Christian agnostic" now, and I am happy with that description.

I mentioned "The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant" in my intro post? If you have ever read it, it very much describes my mentality in a nutshell. (Belief and doubt entirely coexist, and the only way through for me is through the eye of the paradox.)

I can also say that I believe in the essence of God whether or not he actually exists. i.e., the patterns of psychological and relational health I have witnessed and experienced over my life confirm the "pattern of God" I had believed in, it's merely all the details that I can't say are true or false. It took me many many years to get to that point, and some horrible relational risks where I had to leave everything (and I mean everything) behind, and I lost some people I cared about.

I wish there was a way to describe it that didn't seem like a contradiction of terms, I understand some people would have trouble reconciling the two.

I am really struck by how many people on this forum (and more widely in the US ????) have lost their faith through a combination of rational analysis and their experience of 'Religion' and religious people.

Well, that is our cultural narrative.

Many areas of this country has been steeped in conservatism for decades. Christianity (a veneer of it) ruled publicly until the 60's. The 80's was when the Religious Right really grew as a response to the overt secularization of society... and so on.

The only way to escape that religious subculture is by (1) rational thought and (2) life experience = wisdom. If you grew up in it, it permeates everything and is hard to leave because of the risks. Many people do not leave.

Even if this election, and after 8 years of Bush, we're yet again seeing the religious conservatives push for candidates based on their public "Christian" image when it's convenient on issues, without little regard for overall suitability for office. Obama is being slandered as a Muslim (which, uh, he isn't) and being vilified despite his faith, because he's not Republican. I just saw an article yesterday where a number of pastors are going to openly break the law and support a specific candidate from the pulpit (the IRS doesn't permit this).

I meet a dear Christian friend for breakfast on Fridays and he said that the Religious Right (of which he used to be / is still sort of a part of) is like the spouse who doesn't realize that her spouse [the Republican Party] has been "sleeping around for years." Or she's living in denial.

Maybe the US has to go through a revolt against fundamentalism in order to discover a new kind of faith

Well, it is happening. I've seen it in my lifetime. Give it another 30-40 years. The Christian Right is dwindling as the older generations die off and since they practice isolationism and non-compromise, natural selection will finish the job. When you make yourself irrelevant to the culture, the culture moves on. Gen Y Christianity is much different than Boomer faith.

Brian McClaren (A New Kind of Christian) is my hero

Yeah, he is cool. I referenced him in another post (tacitly) where I referred to Jesus' message not being "You're a terrible wretch who is going to burn in hell, repent and then act like a good Christian" but, "The kingdom of God is here -- [come as you are and] follow me!"

 

[eudemonia]

Have you ever heard of or considered Engineers Without Borders? It's an organization that does public works sort of projects around the world in undeveloped areas. It's a volunteer organization (as far as I can tell) but it might be a good place for you to investigate, or make some connections. It combines the science/technology with service and travel...

I was very interested in this organization, but once you're not a student anymore, and you've got a job, a wife, and house payments, it's hard to just up and leave for 6 months, or even 6 weeks.

The programme I used was an American organisation I found on the internet. It's called SAGEprogram and specialises in educational tours to India. It cost $3000 for 3 1/2 weeks. But they also give scholarships so the richer kids subsidise the poorer. But there are loads of charities that do this kind of thing - I bet you could contact any charity you liked and they would die to have someone with your skills. In the UK there is an organisation called VSO - voluntary service overseas who would kill for someone like you. YOu could contact them and they could suggest where to go next.

But I agree with Fusion - go before you get tied down with mortgage, marriage and motor. Actually, marriage is OK - me and my husband went travelling together...just limits some of the options a bit really

 

[NoID10ts]

Actually, I am.

I'm speechless on that one!

I do agree with you on fundamentalism. I think it is being eroded. Even in biblical scholarship they are having to reconstruct their theology and scripture to match the developments of the age.

I wonder if the world will progress in such a way that more and more peoples views will spiral upward toward one thing.

 

[eudemonia]

yuck... I feel like I'm about to post way more information about myself than I ever want on the internet. haha if someone out there comes by this page and didn't know I was me before, they ought to now. Ahh well... for nia's sake, I guess

thanks Cryptonia

The theology in the middle school was awful; one of my biggest worries is the fact that I didn't realize it til I was a freshman. In high school I had one guy for basic doctrine, realized the difference between what he taught and what I'd heard before, and exhausted the bible department taught there. He was teaching mostly to help him study for his comprehensive exames for his doctorite in the history of intellectual thought in seminary... so the concepts were, without question, deeper than your cursory glance at things. He provided about the base 15-25% of my theology/worldview, and I built up the rest from my own experiences.

Its great to have had a mentor, someone who really influenced you and helped you to grow. I am quite jealous of that. My spiritual director is sweet but he hasn't asked a single question about me since we began. I'm going to give him up. I 've had more spiritual direction on this forum than I have from anywhere else.

I go through cycles of noticeable arrogance and extreme timidity in my thoughts--no matter how sure I sound through text, this is one of my much more timid times. People like timidness better socially, but confidence better in jobs (or so I'm told)... but I'll never be anything but me in either case.

good, most work places are sick because everyone is trying to be confident but is secretly petrified that others will ses that they are not confident which makes them even less confident so then they get even more defensive - you get the picture

If I had nothing else to live for, I would have absolutely killed myself by now--except perhaps that my will is too weak, I'm not sure because it's never come up.

This INTP morbidity again. Do we all think about death and suicide?

I desperately, desperately need something to do that doesn't amount to nothing in the end. The only actual things I can find that feel worthwhile are the ones that only feel worthwhile. I do them because I enjoy them, but my head says they're equally meaningless.

I found (very personally) that the only things that are meaningful are the things that you enjoy doing and which come naturally. Regardless of what society's norms and conventions are.

I would sooner traverse a farmland in a far away country, going from house to house asking if people would feed me if I helped them out with whatever they needed done that day

I could see you doing that for a month or so....others have done it before. Which reminds me that we had a guy in the UK travel from Lands End to John O Groats (bottom to top) completely naked. He did it to protest against anti-naturist laws. Well, if he could do something like that...

Actually, eudemonia, how did you even find that farm you sent your daughter(?) to? That kind of thing sounds like my dream, at least for a summer or two, but I have no idea where to even start looking for something like that.

Yeah, I've got a couple of organisations that were recommended to me:
www.gapactivityprojects.com
Also look up 'Quest Overseas' and 'Project Trust'. I don't have web addresses for these last two.
The organisation I used for my daughter's trip is called Sage www.sageprogram.org based in the US. I think you might be too old for it (!) but you could always ask them for advice.

I have not been bored for more than an hour or two (at most, until my brain finds something else to think about) in a very, very long time.

sounds like heaven

 

[Jennywocky]

I'm speechless on that one!

*giggle*

I like surprising people.

I do agree with you on fundamentalism. I think it is being eroded. Even in biblical scholarship they are having to reconstruct their theology and scripture to match the developments of the age. I wonder if the world will progress in such a way that more and more peoples views will spiral upward toward one thing.

If so, of course the fundies will just preaching even more about the "one world government under the anti-christ" you know.

Many things are changing, though, in the US. (For one, GLBT rights have improved a tremendous amount. Even among the evangelicals, while support for pro-life might have gone up in those less than 30 years old, an increasing number are supportive of gay marriage, for example. People's values are changing along with public education. Some people might or might not like that, but it's just what is happening.)

 

[FusionKnight]

I'm not sure what definition "fundamentalist" is being used here. I tend to use terminology literally, i.e. fundamentalist Christianity sticks as close to the actual words and teachings of Jesus, and allows everything else to take a lesser role.

I suspect you-all's definition of "fundamentalist" is more what I would call "modern American cultural-Christianity", which has very little to do with Jesus most of the time. For example, the "religious right" in America has nothing to do with religion or Jesus; it's a political movement that uses populist views (in this case our shared Christian heritage) to gain power.

Oddly enough I am both "religious" (a follower of Jesus, believe that babies are humans so abortion is murder) and hold conservative, right-wing (actually libertarian) political views (like government in inherently evil, and government should only be suffered to exist if it is bound and shackled so as to be almost powerless), but in no way would I accurately be described as the "Religious Right".

 

[Jennywocky]

I'm not sure what definition "fundamentalist" is being used here. I tend to use terminology literally, i.e. fundamentalist Christianity sticks as close to the actual words and teachings of Jesus, and allows everything else to take a lesser role.

That is what I generally mean, although I use the word in sloppy ways sometimes to refer to what you describe: "modern American cultural-Christianity" -- essentially hardcore evangelicalism.

For example, the "religious right" in America has nothing to do with religion or Jesus; it's a political movement that uses populist views (in this case our shared Christian heritage) to gain power.

Oh, you are so dead on there. That is exactly what it is.

Oddly enough I am both "religious" (a follower of Jesus, believe that babies are humans so abortion is murder) and hold conservative, right-wing (actually libertarian) political views (like government in inherently evil, and government should only be suffered to exist if it is bound and shackled so as to be almost powerless), but in no way would I accurately be described as the "Religious Right".

That last part made me laugh.
The religious conservatives/hardcore evangelicals want government to be powerless in theory.
The caveat: Only if THEY'RE not the ones in power.

So much of their time (via Dobson and others) is spent chasing power via government by which to control society the way they want it to be.

The message of Christ was the opposite.
He forsook power, befriended the weak, and criticized the ones holding the reins.
The Kingdom of God is human politics turned on their head.

 

[Jennywocky]

I am going to just post a general "religious bio" of myself, since the thread sort of went that way. My life has involved many things, but the spiritual journey has colored everything and is its own narrative...

--

I grew up in the church, got saved when I was five.
I attended all things protestant -- Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, evangelical, non-denom, Brethren in Christ growing up and throughout adulthood.
Throughout much of my adult life, I led worship on the piano and even started and developed the worship band at my last church.
Before I left last August.
I was 38.

I learned voraciously when I was young.
Faith was so intellectual for me growing up.
Lacking social courage, I studied the Bible.
I wanted to understand.
Memorized large passages of scripture.

All of my life, I was disillusioned by the people.
But not by God.
I had an intuitive understanding of him.
But people confused me.
I was so worried about being able to "justify" my intuitions that I would just not bring them up.
Life did the process of stripping my intellectualism away from me.
Once that happened, I had to accept God on terms other than my logic.
(Put another way, in the end, you go before him naked or not at all.)

I was also dealing with a large life issue that was impacted by and impacted my faith journey.
An issue I couldn't talk about seriously, without getting what I see now as "Christian pabulum."
Too scared to explore and engage, people just wanted easy answers.
So I was alone.
Outwardly I tried to maintain my relationship with my chuch friends and my family (my mom and sister are very religious), and so I avoided conversations that would damage those relationships.
It ended up being a cage.

In my mid-30's, my life slowly fell apart.
So much spiritual growth up to that point, God had worked miracles in my life in terms of who I had become, but gradually I no longer felt that God was around.
Not that he didn't exist, but that he had gone.
I felt like a woman who woke up one morning alone, the love of her life missing and not answering her call.
The depression on the bed slowly disappearing, the smell of him fading.
Wandering around an empty house, looking at mementos and photographics, crying to herself.
Knowing he was listening.
But not understanding why he would no longer answer.
Silence on the other end of the phone.

It was horrible.
I was numb and withdrawn.
Could not engage people, even the ones I loved.
I lost God; I lost myself.
I was suicidal nightly for months, awake alone until early hours of the morning, had to fight off the urge to swallow all my sleeping pills and just be done with it.
I didn't.
I don't know why.
I think it was because I didn't want to die, really.
I wanted to live.
Just did not know how.
And was scared to change things.

I finally had to make hard decisions, and I did.
I see now that nothing else would have pushed me to make positive changes, nothing other than feeling abandoned by God.
I had to be alone so that I would finally dig deep enough to make decisions and choose.

Eventually I left church -- I didn't want to be divisive, yet knew that I could not continue to listen to people speak with conviction (especially in their judgment of the world and other people) about things I thought were misguided or opinionated. Or saying things with boldness that I knew from experience were full of folly and hubris.
My inner voice was yet weak and uncertain.
If I stayed, I felt it would be smothered again.
I needed my strength.
I needed my space.
I took it, ironically at about the same time I finally felt God's peace again.
They thought I had fallen away.
But I had found myself, and was finding God all over again.

I lost a great deal from the decisions I made last year.
I lost many people in my family.
I lost my support network.
I lost many friends.
That is the peril of not being yourself with others: When you finally take off the mask, they might not like what they see.
I'm separated right now.

But everyone who did not leave me -- and the new people I meet -- tell me I am one of the most pleasant, happiest, most engaging, most kind people they know.
My old world insinuated I was ugly; everyone else seems to see me as beautiful.
It boggles my mind.
I went off anti-depressants in April, the first time in 6 years.
I love my life now and don't want to die, no matter HOW bad it gets sometimes.
I started going to church again a few weeks ago (somewhere else).

I wish I had had the strength to make changes earlier in my life, before things got so bad.
But I couldn't.

At least now there's hope in the future again.

 

[FusionKnight]

That is what I generally mean, although I use the word in sloppy ways sometimes to refer to what you describe: "modern American cultural-Christianity" -- essentially hardcore evangelicalism.

Lol. Now I have the same question about your use of the word "evangelicalism"! To me that's always meant believers who emphasize spreading the teachings of Jesus. Regardless, I know what you mean, so don't let my comment derail the conversation.

All of my life, I was disillusioned by the people.
But not by God.
I had an intuitive understanding of him.
But people confused me.
I was so worried about being able to "justify" my intuitions that I would just not bring them up.
Life did the process of stripping my intellectualism away from me.
Once that happened, I had to accept God on terms other than my logic.
(Put another way, in the end, you go before him naked or not at all.)

That's kind of what I feel like these threads are, in some ways. I'm trying to justify what I intuitively know is true using non-intuitive means (logic, reason, science). I'm also tempted to just "check out", but I think having this conversation is good for all parties. For my part, I'm forced to confront some weak spots in my own understanding of myself, God, the universe, etc.

It was horrible.
I was numb and withdrawn.
Could not engage people, even the ones I loved.
I lost God; I lost myself.
I was suicidal nightly for months, awake alone until early hours of the morning, had to fight off the urge to swallow all my sleeping pills and just be done with it.
I didn't.
I don't know why.
I think it was because I didn't want to die, really.
I wanted to live.
Just did not know how.
And was scared to change things.

I finally had to make hard decisions, and I did.
I see now that nothing else would have pushed me to make positive changes, nothing other than feeling abandoned by God.
I had to be alone so that I would finally dig deep enough to make decisions and choose.

I think this is a key aspect of God's presence/non-presence. I think God allows us to be away from him, and to dig ourselves into a hole, because it's only then that we truly begin to understand the real state of things: we're hopeless. We can't live without God, we can't act right on our own, we don't even know what is right half the time, heck, we can't even believe in God without God's assistance. Before we're in this place, its easy to maintain the illusion that we're actually in control, that things are working out okay, that the world is actually kinda comfortable and nice. When the blinds are torn away and we realize where we've been this whole time, then we realize what God is offering. We can't otherwise.

 

[NoID10ts]

@Jennywocky

I can really relate to what you posted. I have been through a very similar experience (uncannily similar). But where you chose the light side of the force and became a Jedi, I chose the dark side and am now a Sith. Or am I the Jedi?

 

[Jennywocky]

I can really relate to what you posted. I have been through a very similar experience (uncannily similar). But where you chose the light side of the force and became a Jedi, I chose the dark side and am now a Sith. Or am I the Jedi?

Depends on which side of the coin one labels good, hmmm?

Me, I'm a naughty Jedi.
Or a kind Sith.

(Did I mention I liked playing SWKOTOR? Especially in SWKOTOR2, when I got to torment the poor wookie and turn him evil and vengeful? I'm soooo bad.)

Lol. Now I have the same question about your use of the word "evangelicalism"! To me that's always meant believers who emphasize spreading the teachings of Jesus. Regardless, I know what you mean, so don't let my comment derail the conversation.

*snark* okay, I won't! :P

lol, no, I agree that "english-terminology wise" evangelical should mean "one who evangelizes." But it's come to represent an almost-political faction among the religious circles.

That's kind of what I feel like these threads are, in some ways. I'm trying to justify what I intuitively know is true using non-intuitive means (logic, reason, science). I'm also tempted to just "check out", but I think having this conversation is good for all parties. For my part, I'm forced to confront some weak spots in my own understanding of myself, God, the universe, etc.

I think another hard thing is that I am a critical thinker, and I distrust emotions and even my own intuition sometimes, just by nature. I don't like to "assume." I am critical of others who assume. Faith -- not trust based on rock-solid facts, but faith based on intuition and faith based on the "inside voice" -- has thus often been an issue for me.

The question was "Are there other valid and dependable ways of knowing besides direct experience and the intellect?"

It is definitely true that many many people out there lack critical thinking, so if they just assume that emotion and their intuitions are "right," they will go far astray. They can't listen very much to those "fluid" things because they can't evaluate them.

I think for INTP types, though (and other hardcore thinkers), they rely TOO much on thinking and ignore God's voice through the more fluid perceptions. Their goal in life is the opposite, to learn how to stop letting Thinking strangle the life from them and learn how to trust their intuitions and respect their own inner voices.

I think this is a key aspect of God's presence/non-presence. I think God allows us to be away from him, and to dig ourselves into a hole, because it's only then that we truly begin to understand the real state of things: we're hopeless. We can't live without God, we can't act right on our own, we don't even know what is right half the time, heck, we can't even believe in God without God's assistance. Before we're in this place, its easy to maintain the illusion that we're actually in control, that things are working out okay, that the world is actually kinda comfortable and nice. When the blinds are torn away and we realize where we've been this whole time, then we realize what God is offering. We can't otherwise.

i agree with the thinking here.

Just to clarify, with me, it was almost the opposite though.
I wanted God to solve my problem so I didn't have to make the hard choices.
I was demanding that He make the decisions for me so I did not have to risk what I had.

And he basically backed way off -- stranding me on the island so that I had no choice but to learn how to swim so that I could get back to shore.

(God is a bastard sometimes, sigh.)

So with me, it was not about drawing in a stray sheep, but forcing the sheep to stand by itself even if the shepherd wasn't around. That was my perpetual lifelong problem: I felt voiceless and I needed to speak.

 

[NoID10ts]

Clouded this ones future is

 

[Jennywocky]

Clouded this ones future is

bwa ha ha.
So what is your favorite color of lightsaber?

 

[FusionKnight]

bwa ha ha.
So what is your favorite color of lightsaber?

Plaid.

 

[EditorOne]

I'll post later about why I'm as messed up, but meanwhile:

Without implying insult to anyone's belief system or lack of belief system, may I mention gnosticism?

http://www.gnosis.org/gnintro.htm

That's fairly benign and even-handed as an explanation.

I'm not beating a drum for it, just noting that certain aspects of it have easy appeal for INTPs, and while the discussion has referenced agnosticism, not knowing, there's a whole other thing here when you take away the "ag" part and find out what some of the early thinking was on "knowing" as the basis for a religion, or, perhaps, almost an alternative to religion.

I got interested in it primarily because it seemed to me, at some kind of shallow level, to be what happens to any good idea that gets hijacked by a world of non-INTPs. :-) Questions like "what would the world be like if the Jesus story came to us this way?" make great thinking fodder and sometimes sci-fi or alternative history or even history fiction. It's the same kind of thing that makes me go read the writings that "weren't allowed" in the Bible. What don't they want me to know? And of course it's all in the knowing, right?

Anyway, will post later, but the premise of my life story is Popeye: I am what I am and that's all what I am, with the addendum that I'm doing the best I can. :-)

wjw

 

[NoID10ts]

I'm a periwinkle man myself! You remember the old Sith legends about Darth Petunia and his Periwinkle Lightsabre right?

Honestly though I liked the purple one Mace Windu had. If its good enough for Sam Jackson, its cool in my book!

 

[Decaf]

My lightsaber color would be ultraviolet (a.k.a. invisible to the human eye).

 

[fullerene]

Thanks for the ideas of organizations to volunteer with for the summer! I am too old for SAGE, but I'll keep an eye on EWB, gapactivityprojects (if their website works? I googled it and couldn't tell which one you meant), and the others. Hopefully something turns up, cause I can't handle another summer at home I don't think.

I found (very personally) that the only things that are meaningful are the things that you enjoy doing and which come naturally.

So said Ecclesiastes, actually... it snapped me out of a... I guess you'd call it "extended bad mood" a couple weeks ago.

My spiritual director is sweet but he hasn't asked a single question about me since we began. I'm going to give him up. I 've had more spiritual direction on this forum than I have from anywhere else.

. In all seriousness I did wonder when you made mention of a "spiritual director" early on what the heck you were talking about. I've never heard of one and I couldn't tell you what one would do, but the words just gave me a little chill.

 

[Agent Intellect]

i like talking about myself enough i guess i can give it a go.

i'm my own protagonist and antagonist. i'm probably the one thats held myself back more then anything else. my family was so poor we could barely pay attention much less the bills. went to public school all my life, all of which was very diverse ethnicly. born march the fifth of 1985 in Grand Rapids Michigan, where i've lived my whole life. i'm male, 6 foot 2 inches tall, white, and around 190 to 200 pounds (haven't checked in a while). lived at home most of my life. took a while to get the money to move out while having to pay my parents "rent" to continue living at home. finally moved out about six months ago. got my first job at the age of sixteen as a cook/disher at a restaurant. in early 2005, quit that job and got one in a wearhouse loading and unloading semi trailers all day, and still work there to this day.

mostly listen to hip hop music, mainly conscious hip-hop. favorite artists are:
Aesop Rock
Atmosphere
Brother Ali
El-P
Eyedea and Abilities
Cannibal Ox
Wu-Tang Clan

i read a lot of fiction, mainly science fiction. favorite authors:
Michael Crichton
Chuck Palahniuk
Kurt Vonnegut
Stephen King
Dean Koontz
God (greatest work of fiction ever)

and i know i didn't need all of those links, but if anyone is at all interested, theres the compendium of myself.

 

[Jennywocky]

My lightsaber color would be ultraviolet (a.k.a. invisible to the human eye).

Oh, you're a sneaky one!

Plaid.

Oh, you're a wonky one!

I'm a periwinkle man myself!

Oh, you've got exquisite taste!
(Ever consider being on "Queer Eye for the Straight Jedi" ?)

 

[grey matters]

Since this thead has been taken over by people wanting to tell their life stories and discussions about modern Christianity who am I to mess with that. But first set me address some of the things other posters have said.


As for Obama being slandered for being a muslim. Though I don't care what religion he is. others choose to make it a big issue so they can create an excuse not to like him. The strategy is this: create a big issue out of a non issue to destroy the opponent. They tried it when JFK was campeigning for president. Fear mongering idiots (who may not be as stupid as they originally seem), (As Yoda once said "hard to see the dark side is" ) said that if JFK were to be elected, then the Catholic church would be in control of the U.S. government. The Catholic church never took over the government and, even though the Muslum religion is a bit more immature then the Catholic religion, I don't think that if Obama is elected, the Muslims will take over. If Obama becomes president there may be 4 years of unicorns and rainbows and fluffy white clouds that you can eat whenever you feel hungry,( politically I don't agree with Obama, he is way too idealistic for me) but a Muslim takeover? No. Yes there is some debate over which Obama is a Christian or a secret Muslum. I don't care, I was just calling him a Muslim for the sake of this argument.


Well, that took longer then I thought it would. Anyway Cryptonia, INTP's don't just talk about death and suicide. We also talk about taking over the world.


By the way, the religious right, who think they have taken over the government in the way they believe the Muslims will take over if Obama is elected, have not gained control over the government so much as they have succeeded in dividing the country into two camps of stupidity: the librals and the religious right. Government is paralized because no one is allowed to vote their conscience. If any elected official votes too far off party lines he or she will no longer be supported by that party and will become unelectable in the future. Compromise is only for the traitor! Radicals on both sides have too much voice and anyone who has a brain and can think critically and objectively is considered stupid, and unimpportant and, of course, is ignored.
The religious right (by "religious right" I mean people like Pat Robertson and his gang) are trying to do the impossible. They are trying to get peple to change on the inside by forcing them, through law, to be moral on the outside. While this is a good thing to do ( to a certain point) in order for society to function, there are some areas where change on the inside can only be done through an individual's desire and actions to chage oneself on the inside. Take for example alchol prohibition in the 1920's in the U.S. Was it successful? Did people repent in droves and fill the church to overflowing? No, but one of the consequences was the power of the mafia was strengthened,.. greatly.
Interestingly, the bible says "if my people, who are called by my name (by definition this would be the Christians), would humble themselves and pray. If they seek my face and humble themselves and pray, and turn from their wicked ways. I (that is God in this context) will hear from heaven and forgive their sins and heal their land."( This scripture may be a bit inacurate because I am writing it from memory, but I hope you get the general idea so you can get my argument). This is quite the opposite approach of the religious right who choose to do the easy thing, like protest an abortion clinic, more then they try to help those who are dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. And how about doing things to prevent the problem altogether? Yes I know they are against the distribution of controceptives but how many of them donate their time to being a teen mentor? And if their not skilled at helping at a pregnancy clinic or being a mentor they still have a checkbook. They can still donate money. Oh wait. Those people are too busy giving thier money to people like Pat Robertson so that Pat and his friends will pray that God will bless them financially and they will become rich (there is only one group of people I see becoming rich in this scenario). Now, I know that I am generalizing a whole group of people and there are some people who do the humble thing like direct care for the hurting or denying themselves the purchase of some materislistic thing for the sake of someone who needs that money more then they do. but I hope you get my point and that is that humility is the way through which "the land will be healed."

As for Pat Robertson, I believe that he is the devil incarnate. but then again no,...I have always imagined the devil to be more suave and debonair (and smarter) then that. What would you call a devil's helper who is not as smart as he thinks he is but not as dumb as he looks?
Dear old Pat has taken Christianity so far from what it is supposed to be and confused at least 2 generations of people as to who God is. By trying to force, through law, Christianity on other people by things like prayer in schools, he (if he is successful) will distroy the rights of freedom of religion in this country when or if their ever is a backlash against religion here.

In conclusion to this tirade I say this is what happens when INTP's are not listened to-The stupid people take over. Didn't the reformation happen after the stupid (and greedy) people crupted the the Catholic church? After things like the sale of indulgences to pay for St. Peter's cathedral in Rome? And after the inquisition where anyone who questioned the catholic church (INTP's would naturally fall into this category) could be tortured and killed?

 

[Ms Independent]

Hello all. I've said it almost everywhere I've posted, but I LOVE this! I'm so thankful to find other beautiful minds like mine out there and actually ENJOY learning about people! (WTF is that!?)

My name is Julie, (unless I come out of my shell for a night out with the girls, for which my name becomes whomever emerges from me that night. I'm very private, and unless I think I can relate to someone on some level, one doesn't need my real name.) I'm 31 and have 2 children, an ex husband and a fiance and from time to time, a lover or two. I grew up with missionary parents and have had Catholisim and theology and philosophy shoved down my throat. To their credit though, they are about the most open-minded people, and believe in experiences as keys to knowedge. We grew up Catholic and remained so, but dabbled in other christian and non-christian intitutions and beliefs. They also introduced me, at a very young age, to Myers Briggs, Enneagram and various other types of diagnoses that seem to explain my existance.

I was adopted, after several go-betweens with foster care and my natural family, when I was 9 mos. My parents (birth parents have no ranking in my life) said I cried for weeks. I was scared of them, of instability, of getting comfortable and being uprooted. Here starts the story of my fear of commitment- and I'm INTP- I'm screwed!

My parents moved us around a lot. Not like an army brat, but enough to add to my inability to commit. To this day, I cannot unpack boxes or suitcases in any timely fashion. I figure why the hell should I bother- I'm just going to move again, or take another trip. I also have 2 younger sisters. Adoptions aside, again, they are my sisters. We may never be blood, but they are mine and I love them. My sister closest in age to me is the opposite with commitment- she's so stuck on her plans that her world would crumble if any one factor became in any way unstable. My youngest sister and I have 5 years between us, and she is even more void of emotion than I. She is also adopted, and no, we don't have the same birth mother. (It always comes up- just thought I'd clarify). She'd sooner make herself sick than express emotion. I love them both dearly.

I went though some hard-core counselling, when I was 14, my parents' attempt to have me deal with my issues of abandonment. He was a brilliant psychologist (at least that's what his patients said) who I hated. He made me feel and deal with things, and in general I considered him a very stupid man. I still look back and don't think he's as brilliant as they say, but I suppose in terms of intellect, he was above some. I kicked and screamed my way to every appointment for a year, but he always managed to get me talking. Did he help? One can only help oneself. I don't really believe in counselling. It's a futile process unless you commit to it. It's like someone taking your liquor or drugs away- they only way the addict cares is when they decide to help themself.

I credit my children with my "healing" so to speak. I'm far from healthy, but I believe I have an alright balance in my life. But my children are what gave me permission to forgive my birth mother for leaving me. I no longer need to know who's hands I have or who's smile I have or who it is I resemble more. I don't need to know who my distate for mushrooms comes from, or why I might be predisposed to being a certain way. I see it in my own children and for me that's been enough to forgive and ultimately, forget. The people that raised me deserve far more credit to parenthood than someone who felt they needed to be rid of me.

I drink very little socially, I occasionally like a puff or two of pot, I don't gamble and I smoke occasionally. In terms of vices, I have little. Sex maybe. I enjoy the feeling of power I get from it. I enjoy the conquering. Yes, I realize I'm engaged, but society in general values marriage over "living in sin". This is his idea- not mine.

I finished highschool but could never pin down a thought long enough to pursue a college or university education, and now I think it would take too much out of my life to go back- although, if I had no children, no partner, no mortgage- I'd go back in a second, and study anything and everything about geneology, and DNA and forensics and anatomy. I'm facinated with that. Instead, I am a regional manager for training and development- a business-wanker- (as in another post one wrote it so eloquently) stuck in the same rat race as everyone else. It sounds like a miserable existence, but I'm rather content.

I enjoy my family, my small circle of friends, and bide my spare time in recreational sports; I downhill ski, kickbox, do yoga. We camp as a family. I read, write, and one day aspire to publish a book. But with that needs to be considered my ability to procrastinate, my inability to think of one thought and finish it to completion, and my tendencies to get side tracked easily on the next big thought in my head. I thoroughly enjoy people watching, but would rather that than interact with people. Music- I love music, all kinds. I love the layers of sound and the arrangements that are invented and the corresponding lyrics. I love to listen to a whole orchestra compile their little bits of genius into an astounding masterpiece
like an explosion of sound that can send shivers up your spine. I love to hear the purity of the vocals of an opera singer- the sopranos, the altos, the tenors, the mingling of sound that is so powerful it brings tears to your eyes. I love the stories of folk music and country music, and the beats of the euro-dance and the electronic noises that compile each sound of rubbish into something unique. And I love the feel good, head-bob of a great song on the radio. (Really, I'm probably the person you point and laugh at, as you drive by and are watching me rock out in my car, driving home from work.)

So, that went longer than I thought, but there is an eye into Ms. Independent. I thoroughly enjoy all of your stories. Thank you for sharing them.

 

[fullerene]

*crypt casts Life*

Since the Introit section is going to be dead for a while, I thought that this thread ought to be revived. I was gonna make a thread for it, but thought it was only fair to post a "proper" introduction for myself, if I was going to ask other people to do it.... but then remembered this one, and decided to just bump it. Most of the people who posted here are still around, so it's good in that way, but also good because unless you've been around for more than 7 or so months, you'd have no idea that it could be "ok" to talk like this .

So c'mon, people who haven't really said much about themselves yet! Of course, don't feel forced to stay with the religious themes. This thread was originally intended because eudemonia wanted to know more about fusion and myself after extensive religious debates in the science, faith, and philosophy forum--but it was because she wanted to know "who are these people really, who I've been talking with so much recently?" That, obviously, is the real reason I'm reviving this thread.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

In the 8 or 9 months that I've been coming off and on to this forum, I don't think I've ever given a full accounting of who I am. Snippets here and there when appropriate for any given topic but I'm not big on voluteering information and I imagine myself as not coming across as 'accessible' to others. Not trying to be that way but that may be how I seem. How much can be learned about a person from a list of interests, likes and hobbies?

I don't remember reading this thread when it came out so reading the op today, I learned some info about Fusion that I didn't know but I don't feel that I got any better a sense of him that I didn't already have (that being that he and I probably agree about 10% of the time and yet he is freakin' awesome). I mostly got the feel for him as I have with most of the others, by reading their posts.

Are they correct? Do I know any of you?

Probably yes and no to both questions. I know everyone here through what they portray and that's all anyone is capable of being known. I am sitting here in my front room where my desk and main tv are. The shades are down, the Indians are leading the Yankees 3-0 in the bottom of the fifth with 1 out and ducks on the pond but the sound is muted so as not to distract me. Basically you people are all words on my screen. Words beyond my abilities to write, but words nonetheless. I am sitting here in this somewhat darkened room with just a sleeping cat for company. Knowing one another can only be done through a very narrow scope. The scope of our typed words.

So what does it take to make the most out of this? What is the best way to get to know someone or be known in this format? More information = More better?

 

[fullerene]

*shrugs*, sure. I was thinking, when I revived this, about things like interests, core philosophies (if you can boil yourself down to one "driving" one), or past events that have drastically shaped your life.... but you can make of it what you want. I was about to add, to the end of that, "say as much or as little as you want," but felt like that probably went without saying, and removed it.

But yeah--say as much or as little as you like. I'd think "the more, the better" fits well. Then if anyone is arguing with you somewhere else, and wants to know "what's up with this person?" they have a thread with a bit more substance to it than the "about you" one to work from.

 

[Ermine]

In the 8 or 9 months that I've been coming off and on to this forum, I don't think I've ever given a full accounting of who I am. Snippets here and there when appropriate for any given topic but I'm not big on voluteering information and I imagine myself as not coming across as 'accessible' to others. Not trying to be that way but that may be how I seem. How much can be learned about a person from a list of interests, likes and hobbies?

I don't remember reading this thread when it came out so reading the op today, I learned some info about Fusion that I didn't know but I don't feel that I got any better a sense of him that I didn't already have (that being that he and I probably agree about 10% of the time and yet he is freakin' awesome). I mostly got the feel for him as I have with most of the others, by reading their posts.

Are they correct? Do I know any of you?

Probably yes and no to both questions. I know everyone here through what they portray and that's all anyone is capable of being known. I am sitting here in my front room where my desk and main tv are. The shades are down, the Indians are leading the Yankees 3-0 in the bottom of the fifth with 1 out and ducks on the pond but the sound is muted so as not to distract me. Basically you people are all words on my screen. Words beyond my abilities to write, but words nonetheless. I am sitting here in this somewhat darkened room with just a sleeping cat for company. Knowing one another can only be done through a very narrow scope. The scope of our typed words.

So what does it take to make the most out of this? What is the best way to get to know someone or be known in this format? More information = More better?

I've been wondering this too. Maybe I've revealed more about myself than I think, but I keep thinking that all the forum really knows is that I'm Ermine, I'm an artist, and I've been around for the longest time. Is it time a more in depth intro?