9/11 conspiracy thread for Panopticon so he can stop threadjacking me

[ApostateAbe]

Panopticon, I generally accept simple explanations over elaborate explanations because simple explanations are generally much more probable. That's why I put aside my prejudices and emotional bents and accept that all kinds of people are responsible for all kinds of evil in the world. I was a 9/11 conspiracist directly after the attacks, long before "truther" was a word, because of all the suspicious things and unanswered questions, which, like absolutely any set of quandaries that you can possibly imagine, can be explained (well or badly) by a large elaborate mysterious conspiracy. And now I would like to put all of that bullshit behind me. I know you mean well, but take your conspiracism elsewhere, please.

Biggest/Craziest 9/11 theory: The official theory that pins 19 middle eastern radical religious islamic extremists(who hate freedom)bypassed airport security with CIA granted visas and hijacked 4 commercial airliners(with no sign of distress or mayday call from ANY of the pilots involved in the 4 hijackings) and flew jumbo jets into designated targets with 75% accuracy.
At one site, in New York, 2 hijacked airplanes crashed into the twin towers and caused the complete structural collapse of THREE towers in mere seconds. Some people have had something to say about it, like William Rodriguez, John Shroeder, Barry Jennings. Jennings died(Coincidentally?) the same week NIST released their final report on WTC7. Barry Jennings: WTC 7 (Explosions) Interview - YouTube

At another site a 757 was flown into the pentagon by a complete fuckin idiot named Hanji Hanjour(who couldnt pass a basic english test. Couldnt fly a Cessna, was described as a dipshit by his flight instructors) who operated a nearly impossible maneuver to fly his 757 into the only area of the Pentagon that had been reinforced(weeks before) right where hijacked pilot(Charles Burlingame) once worked at. WOW. There is no positive identification of flight 77 being recovered from the pentagon, but fuck it! We got some terrorist dna samples. See...terrorist dna is supremely strong. It can survive heat that turns jumbojets and their black boxes to dust. As for all the camera video that may have captured the crash, who cares, FBI has it. They know how to explain it.

Oh and then there is Flight 93. Al Qaeda operatives who couldnt wait for those 72 virgins so they were careless enough to lose control of the plane and let it disintegrate to a landfill in Shanksville with a 6 mile debris field and eyewitness testimony(mayor included) saying there was nothing larger than a book to even pick up.


^That was me trying to explain it in simple terms.

Go to town.

 

[Panopticon]

ZOMG!

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/12/world/asia/12drugs.htm

I'll be a tinfoil hat wearing nut for a day. Whatever.

 

[NoID10ts]

Just merge this thread with this one ...

http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=780



---> <--- Here's a plane flying into a gaggle of 9/11 truthers. YAY!!!


<--- Here's a 9/11 truther death conspiracy theorist who insists that they were silenced, not by the government, but by operatives from Pluto who coincidentally also happened to be the real culprits behind 9/11


---> <---- And here's a plane flying into him


<--- and now that all other conspiracy theorists are too scared to posit any new theories, everyone worships George W. Bush who now rules the world and is also the anti Christ and has ushered in a Republican New World Order.


---> <--- And here's an atheist flying into them because he doesn't believe in anti Christs.

 

[Panopticon]

Just merge this thread with this one ...

http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=780



---> <--- Here's a plane flying into a gaggle of 9/11 truthers. YAY!!!


<--- Here's a 9/11 truther death conspiracy theorist who insists that they were silenced, not by the government, but by operatives from Pluto who coincidentally also happened to be the real culprits behind 9/11


---> <---- And here's a plane flying into him


<--- and now that all other conspiracy theorists are too scared to posit any new theories, everyone worships George W. Bush who now rules the world and is also the anti Christ and has ushered in a Republican New World Order.


---> <--- And here's an atheist flying into them because he doesn't believe in anti Christs.

Ah ok you must be the 9/11 debunker that is just so full of shit. Nice to meet you.

 

[NoID10ts]

---> <--- Here's several planes flying into NoID10ts because he simply can't muster a sufficient comeback to counter Panopticon's astute, sharp as a razor, attack on him!!!

AHHHH! What will everyone do without NoID10ts now that he's dead!!!

<--- shocked onlookers

NoID20ts appears: NoID10ts will not have died in vain! Panopticon is nothing more than a sock puppet for nefarious INTPforum admins who've had it in for the great blue one from the beginning. I had tons and tons of irrefutable evidence to support my case, but it was seized in an illegal raid on my mom's basement.

 

[Panopticon]

---> <--- Here's several planes flying into NoID10ts because he simply can't muster a sufficient comeback to counter Panopticon's astute, sharp as a razor, attack on him!!!

AHHHH! What will everyone do without NoID10ts now that he's dead!!!

<--- shocked onlookers

NoID20ts appears: NoID10ts will not have died in vain! Panopticon is nothing more than a sock puppet for nefarious INTPforum admins who've had it in for the great blue one from the beginning. I had tons and tons of irrefutable evidence to support my case, but it was seized in an illegal raid on my mom's basement.

Just like I predicted. You're gonna act like a charity case because to you it's more fun than discussing real facts. All you have is two lying, disingenuous piece of shit Popular Mechanics hit pieces to support your facade of "debunking" 9/11 facts.

 

[Panopticon]

http://www.historycommons.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

http://patriotsquestion911.com/

http://www.ae911truth.org/

http://www.911independentcommission.org/questions.html


Nevermind the tactics that enthusiastic liars like NoID10ts use to spin things.

 

[ApostateAbe]

• bypassed airport security with CIA granted visas [citation needed]
• no sign of distress or mayday call from ANY of the pilots involved in the 4 hijackings [citation needed]
• [Hani] Hanjour... couldnt pass a basic english test. [citation needed]
• [Hani] Hanjour... Couldnt fly a Cessna [citation needed]
• [Hani] Hanjour... was described as a dipshit by his flight instructors [citation needed]
• [Hani] Hanjour... operated a nearly impossible maneuver [citation needed]
• no positive identification of flight 77... recovered from the pentagon [citation needed]
• black boxes [were turned] to dust [citation needed]

 

[NoID10ts]

Just like I predicted. You're gonna act like a charity case because to you it's more fun than discussing real facts.

Just like I said, you're an intpforum admin hell bent on discrediting me in front of the whole forum. How else could you "predict" what I was going to say unless you have control of the forum and can see the posts before they appear on the web? Huh? Huh?

In my 4,000+ posts on this forum, I've never been anything but informative, enlightening, and deadly serious about everything. The admins have secretly hated me for this. And now you come along and try to make me look bad. Coincidence? I think not.

Your name reveals your intp admin roots:

Panopticon - The letters INTP are right there in the name. And if you flip the 'P' upside down you get a 'd' and then you have 'ad in' and if you imagine there being a 'm' there you have 'INTP ADMIN'!!!!

http://www.historycommons.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

http://patriotsquestion911.com/

http://www.ae911truth.org/

http://www.911independentcommission.org/questions.html

Oh, you're good. Links. ON THE INTERNET! There's nothing that multiple links can't make true.

I know this looks bad for me, intpf, but don't believe this hype about 9/11. This is a ruse to get rid of dear old Noddy.

Nevermind the tactics that enthusiastic liars like NoID10ts use to spin things.

I'm less offended by being called a liar, than by being called enthusiastic. I've never been enthusiastic about anything in my life.

 

[Chimera]

Oh my god, it all makes sense now!















I knew the admins were trying to do away with Noddy!!

admin --> <-- admin
^
Green noddy
​

 

[NoID10ts]

They're a nefarious bunch those admins, led by their leader Panopticon (or is he a patsy?). I can feel one looking at me through my webcam now. Just looking at me and smiling a sinister smile. I can't see them doing this, of course, but I know it just the same because the hairs on the back of my neck are tingling and they only tingle when something I have no evidence for is actually true.

They're just looking at me....

... and masturbating.

I just know that I'm not long for this forum. They're coming to get me. You'll tell my story, though, won't you Chimera?

<--- ewww. right in the eye. I guess they're done masturbating now.

 

[sammael]

Of limited relevance, but I found this humorous.

 

[ApostateAbe]

• Flight 93... 6 mile debris field [citation needed]

 

[NoID10ts]

Did Panopticon go away? Hmmm. Maybe it wasn't a forum conspiracy after all.

At any rate, I was just fucking around. Geez, those truthers have no sense of humor about that shit, do they?



But just to set the record straight, I never linked to a popular mechanics article (I think that was thoumyvision). I don't really need to link to anything at all. All I need is to think through what it would actually take to pull this conspiracy off. The resources, the money, the time, the missiles (?), the demo equipment (?), the other aircraft(s) (?), the manpower, all of which remained undetected prior to the attack. All those fucking fingers involved in this massive conspiracy and not one god damn person blows a whistle beforehand? No one notices that two of the most recognizable and oft visited buildings in the world are being rigged for demolition? I'm sure there's answers for all of that and the million other questions that pop into my mind, but the mental exercise alone is enough to know it's nonsense.

I'm not saying we have all the answers, there will always be holes in the official story of anything delving into matters of national security, but we already have an accurate overview of exactly what happened.

9/11 truthism is just a fringe hobby akin to alternate history fan fiction that's fueled by a misplaced sense of righteous indignation.

 

[Cognisant]

To all conspiracy theorists, believe it or not the Arabs are actually a fairly competent lot, and the CIA aren't nearly as powerful as they'd like you to believe. 9/11 happened because there was opportunity and motivation, the opportunity being that at that time nobody even considered something like this, sure there were gaps in national security (there's always going to be gaps in a nation's security) but who would dare? As for the motivation, the middle east has most of the world's supply of petroleum, during the so called "cold war" that's where the shit was hitting the fan, Osama was there for it, I don't know what the fuck happened but it doesn’t take a genius to guess, come up with some theories for that.

 

[Kuu]

This thread is extremely pathetic.

a) Unnecessary public bashing. If you have an issue with someone, there's PMs, and you can reach us admins as well. Understood, ApostateAbe?

b) Childish reactions instead of actual discussion. I'm looking at you, Noddy.

c) While it seemed a facetious comment, let it be clear that Panopticon is NOT an admin or mod puppet.

This thread is going to Oubliette where it belongs.

 

[NoID10ts]

... says the mod who agrees with Panopticon.

Now I know it's a conspiracy and the moving of this thread and the character assassination on yours truly, the perpetually mature and unchildish Noddy, and the belittling of the content herein, proves it.

Now all I need is a website to lay out the facts as I've interpreted them ...

 

[Panopticon]

Sorry I thought the thread got deleted. Pardon the sloppy/paste job.

bypassed airport security with CIA granted visas [citation needed]

According to Michael Springman, a former cheif of the visa section of the US Consulate in Saudi Arabia "15 of the hijackers" got their visas from the very same consulate.
http://911review.org/Wiki/CiaVisasForPatsies.shtml http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/events/newsnight/1645527.stm
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/terror/articles/visa011212.htm
http://www.historycommons.org/timel...e_911_timeline_hijacker_visas_and_immigration

no sign of distress or mayday call from ANY of the pilots involved in the 4 hijackings [citation needed]

(8:13 a.m.-9:28 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Pilots of All Four Hijacked Planes Fail to Dial Standard Distress Code



In the event of a hijacking, all airline pilots are trained to key an emergency four-digit code into their plane’s transponder. This would surreptitiously alert air traffic controllers, causing the letters “HJCK” to appear on their screens. [CNN, 9/13/2001; Newsday, 9/13/2001; News (Portugal), 8/3/2002; 9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 17-18] The action, which pilots should take the moment a hijack situation is known, only takes seconds to perform. [Christian Science Monitor, 9/12/2001; CNN, 9/12/2001] Yet during the hijackings of flights 11, 175, 77, and 93, none of the pilots do this. [CNN, 9/11/2001]
http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?day_of_9/11=aa11&timeline=complete_911_timeline

[Hani] Hanjour... couldnt pass a basic english test. [citation needed]

January-February 2001: Flight School’s Repeated Warnings About Hijacker Hanjour Ignored by FAA

Hani Hanjour, from a 2000 US visa application. [Source: 9/11 Commission]In January 2001, the Arizona flight school JetTech alerts the FAA about hijacker Hani Hanjour. No one at the school suspects Hanjour of terrorist intent, but they tell the FAA he lacks both the English and flying skills necessary for the commercial pilot’s license he has already obtained. For instance, he had taken classes at the University of Arizona but failed his English classes with a 0.26 grade point average. A JetTech flight school manager “couldn’t believe he had a commercial license of any kind with the skills that he had.” A former employee says, “I’m still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon. He could not fly at all.” They also note he is an exceptionally poor student who does not seem to care about passing his courses. [New York Times, 5/4/2002; CBS News, 5/10/2002] An FAA official named John Anthony actually sits next to Hanjour in class and observes his skills. He suggests the use of a translator to help Hanjour pass, but the flight school points out that goes “against the rules that require a pilot to be able to write and speak English fluently before they even get their license.” [Associated Press, 5/10/2002] The FAA verifies that Hanjour’s 1999 pilot’s license is legitimate (see April 15, 1999), but takes no other action. However, his license should have been rejected because it had already expired in late 1999 when he failed to take a manadatory medical test. [Associated Press, 9/15/2001; CBS News, 5/10/2002http://www.historycommons.org/timel...meline&the_alleged_9/11_hijackers=haniHanjour

[Hani] Hanjour... Couldnt fly a Cessna [citation needed]

Mid-August 2001: 9/11 Hijacker Hanjour Rents Plane in Maryland; He Is Still Not Skilled Enough to Fly Solo

9/11 hijacker Hani Hanjour goes to the Freeway Airport in Bowie, Maryland, about 20 miles west of Washington. He wants to rent a single engine Cessna airplane. However, when two instructors take him on three test runs, they find he has trouble controlling and landing the plane. One instructor has to help him land. Due to his poor skills, therefore, he is not allowed to rent one of their planes without more lessons. Further, while Hanjour appears to have logged over 600 hours of flying experience and possesses a valid pilot’s license (though it has in fact expired), he refuses to provide contact information: He gives no phone number and only gives his address as being a hotel in Laurel. (Same link as the last one)

[Hani] Hanjour... was described as a dipshit by his flight instructors [citation needed]

Duncan Hastie, the school’s owner(CRM Airline Training Center in Scottsdale, Arizona), finds Hanjour a “weak student” who is “wasting our resources.” According to Hastie, “He was not able to fly solo in a small plane, which is equivalent to getting out of a parking space [in a car] and stopping.” Another instructor he had “only the barest understanding what the instruments were there to do.” In April of 99, he dubiously got a pilot's licence.....The flight school he attends in 2001 is so appalled by his skills that they reported him to the FAA at least 5 times.

[Hani] Hanjour... operated a nearly impossible maneuver [citation needed]

Quite a number of pilots have stated that this maneuver is very difficult for expert pilots, and impossible for a Cessna school flunky. Flight Controllers in Dulles saw it approaching Washington(with transponder shut off...alert anyone?) on radar and believed it was a military jet due to the speed it was flying at. Capt. Russ Wittenberg, U.S. Air Force and Retired commercial pilot said "The government story they handed us about 9/11 is total B.S. plain and simple." …"descended 7,000 feet in two minutes, all the while performing a steep 280 degree banked turn before crashing into the Pentagon's first floor wall without touching the lawn."… http://www.historycommons.org/timel...7&timeline=complete_911_timeline&startpos=100 The plane hit the only side of the Pentagon with no basement and also the only side that had been reinforced. Coincidentally(Oddly) Flight 77 pilot Charles Burlingame once worked for Navy Intelligence in the very same area that the plane hit the Pentagon. weird. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/playerfly/attack_path.jpg This also "coincidentally" hit the budget analysis office of the DOD that was investigating the missing 2.3 trillion that Rumseld reported missing on 9/10.

no positive identification of flight 77... recovered from the pentagon [citation needed]

This is where most of the speculation lies. The conspiracy "theorists" are usually split on this verdict. I admit I have been stupid enough to bite into this one, but at the end of the day there is very little information and evidence to work with. People who believe there was no plane(or 757) point to the lack of visible airplane debris that one(albiet mostly uneducated)would expect to see at a plane crash. "It only seemed like a small hole in the building. No tails, no wings, nothing."
Steve De Cairo. Survivor.

"With all the evidence readily available at the pentagon crash site any unbiased rational investigator could only conclude that a Boeing 757 did not fly into the Pentagon."
Col. George Nelson. Aircraft accident Investigator for US Airforce.

Through the Freedom of Information Act, we have seen 2 videos of the crash that dont show much of anything. The FBI confiscated a total of 86 video camera tapes and claims the other 84 dont show the Flight 77 impact. http://www.rense.com/general67/fbicl.htm

The Pentagon crash is the only one of the 4 events to not register any seismic data, or at least nothing significant. The FBI took complete control of the Pentagon investigation and to this day they have not released anything. http://www.historycommons.org/timel...line&investigations:_a_detailed_look=penttbom

You can watch the NTSB's animation of the airplane's flight trajectory and crash which unfortunately the animation did not show. This is from the plane's very own flight data recorder. American 77 Final Maneuver - YouTube

Me personally, I think it would be much easier for the conspirators to simply fly an American Airlines 757 into the Pentagon just like they said they did. It is impossible to prove that it was hit by anything else. A Global Hawk is out of the question. Nobody saw a missile hit the building. So far I see MORE evidence to suggest that an airplane hit the building. Photos of the wreckage(some kinda gruesome) shows some serious damage, some plane parts are visible. I seriously doubt a team of workers dumped all that shit there. So there, I was wrong mate. http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm

There are still ALOT of questions regarding the Pentagon. Dick Cheney's role....

(Between 9:20 a.m. and 9:27 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Transportation Secretary Mineta Reaches Bunker, Meets Vice President Cheney

Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta. [Source: US Department of Transportation]Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta arrives at the White House bunker—the Presidential Emergency Operations Center (PEOC)—containing Vice President Dick Cheney and others. Mineta will tell NBC News that he arrives there at “probably about 9:27,” though he later says to the 9/11 Commission that he arrives at “about 9:20 a.m.” He also later recalls that Cheney is already there when he arrives. [MSNBC, 9/11/2002; 9/11 Commission, 5/23/2003; St. Petersburg Times, 7/4/2004; Academy of Achievement, 6/3/2006] This supports accounts of Cheney reaching the bunker not long after the second WTC crash (see (9:10 a.m.) September 11, 2001). Questioned about this in 2007 by an activist group, Mineta will confirm that Cheney was “absolutely… already there” in the PEOC when he arrived, and that “This was before American Airlines [Flight 77] went into the Pentagon,” which happens at 9:37. Yet, while admitting there is “conflicting evidence about when the vice president arrived” in the PEOC, the 9/11 Commission will conclude that the “vice president arrived in the room shortly before 10:00, perhaps at 9:58.” Mineta also later claims that when he arrives in the PEOC, Mrs. Lynne Cheney, the wife of the vice president, is already there. Yet the 9/11 Commission will claim she only arrives at the White House at 9:52 (see (9:52 a.m.) September 11, 2001). [9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 40; 911truthseattle (.org), 6/26/2007] Once in the PEOC, Mineta establishes open phone lines with his office at the Department of Transportation and with the FAA Operations Center. [Academy of Achievement, 6/3/2006]
http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&day_of_9/11=dickCheney

black boxes [were turned] to dust [citation needed]

Pretty inaccurate statement on my part. The black boxes(Flight Data Recorders and Cockpit Voice Recorders) from Flights 11, and 175(WTC site) were reportedly(FBI and 9/11 Commission both claimed) "never found". This is not without some controversy, as two men working at the Ground Zero clean up site claimed to find 3 of the 4 black boxes. To name one, New York City firefighter Nicholas DeMasi(He's been interviewed about it before). To this day nothing from those black boxes has been released to the public. We were told they were destroyed or lost in the WTC rubble(which is possible).

Apparently black boxes from both Flight 77 and Flight 93 have been recovered. A partial transcript of Flight 93's CVR has been released, but the last few minutes before the crash were absent(It was claimed to have been damaged) The NTSB has released a report on the Flight 77 Flight Data Recorder. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc02.pdf

After studying the NTSB report of Flight 77 some wacky conspiracy nut pilots had problems with it. I dont feel like getting into it. Basically the NTSB findings contradict the 9/11 Commission(NTSB shows flight path to be different from the one presented by Commission report), some people disagreed, found some bullshit in the NTSB report too(false height parameter, and the point of impact is not present in recording), and yadda yadda. As far as I know the NTSB has declined to clarify on their mistakes, and the CVR shows nothing relating to a hijacking, the cockpit door apparently never opened. I dunno. You can listen to a phone call if you're bored or interested. Phone call to NTSB regarding AA77 Flight Data Recorder - YouTube

I partially agree with you in wishing this shit would just go away. It's a mindfuck thinking about this stuff, and dwelling on it doesnt get you shit except a headache(which I now have). But on the other hand it still is very interesting, I dont care who you are. The 9/11 Truth Movement(conspiracy theorists to some) was founded by family members and victims(including firefighters and first responders), these questions keep being asked because the US government will not answer them. I think it's absurd for people to suggest that questioning the official story means that you are a batshit crazy extremist nut who hates freedom and deserves to be shunned and marginalized. Tell the truth and people will shut the fuck up already. Eh but then again maybe not right?

Anyway, I think this 5 minute video says it better than I could muster. This is the stupidest conspiracy theory of them all. 9/11: A Conspiracy Theory - YouTube

 

[Jedi]

Everybody I've heard speak of their belief in the 9/11 conspiracy theory (via audio, not here in this thread) came off as a little... batshit crazy.

 

[Panopticon]

Just like I said, you're an intpforum admin hell bent on discrediting me in front of the whole forum. How else could you "predict" what I was going to say unless you have control of the forum and can see the posts before they appear on the web? Huh? Huh?

In my 4,000+ posts on this forum, I've never been anything but informative, enlightening, and deadly serious about everything. The admins have secretly hated me for this. And now you come along and try to make me look bad. Coincidence? I think not.

Your name reveals your intp admin roots:

Panopticon - The letters INTP are right there in the name. And if you flip the 'P' upside down you get a 'd' and then you have 'ad in' and if you imagine there being a 'm' there you have 'INTP ADMIN'!!!!

Hehe I get it, you're having fun. No worries. But I hate to disappoint you, I auditioned as a mod-patsy but they said I was under qualified and "incapable of operating even the simplest forum tools and features."

Oh, you're good. Links. ON THE INTERNET! There's nothing that multiple links can't make true.

I know this looks bad for me, intpf, but don't believe this hype about 9/11. This is a ruse to get rid of dear old Noddy.

I'm less offended by being called a liar, than by being called enthusiastic. I've never been enthusiastic about anything in my life.

Links have alot more to say(regarding the actual event than you and I will ever get to discussing, so what the hell.

The 9/11 Timeline(cooperative research) was originally pieced together through a collective effort by 9/11 family members(the ones that forced the 9/11 Commission to be started) Kristen Breitweiser, Patty Casazza, Lorie Van Auken, Mindy Kleinberg and researcher Paul Thompson(who runs/ran the site).They basically did the work we expected our own government to do...which is to provide evidence. The patriotsquestion9/11 website speaks for itself. You have 9/11 Commissioners, Senior military, government officials, pilots, architects, and family members(victims) all calling bullshit on the official story. Or so the tale goes.

I'll leave it with a quote from a 9/11 First responder by the name of David Miller, who is suffering from respitory illness(cancer) related to toxic ground zero air quality. He supports this fringe movement called the "twoofers" and he says "Everytime Popular Mechanics calls the people of this movement "nuts", these propagandists, professional liars, and tools who can not by any stretch of imagination be considered journalists, strike another nail into another coffin of anothe rescue worker." 40,000 rescue workers who were lied to by the EPA and cant get affordable coverage today.

If you want to marginalize and make a mockery of people because they have certain beliefs, or in this regard, questions and objections about 9/11 that YOU dont agree with, then that's on you.

What do you think of Barry Jennings? Did he exist to before this video. Barry Jennings: WTC 7 (Explosions) Interview - YouTube

 

[Panopticon]

• Flight 93... 6 mile debris field [citation needed]

Apparently so. http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/13/penn.attack/ I was wrong, it was as far as 8 miles. Some witnesses reported a second plane in the area.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...uestions-the-mystery-of-flight-93-639770.html

 

[Panopticon]

Everybody I've heard speak of their belief in the 9/11 conspiracy theory (via audio, not here in this thread) came off as a little... batshit crazy.

 

[NoID10ts]

Links have alot more to say(regarding the actual event than you and I will ever get to discussing, so what the hell.

There are a ton of links about this conspiracy and I've read through some of them, but there are just as many links that counter them. And the ones that defend the official position tend to make more sense to me, personally. The truther side labels their opposition as government cronies and do the six degrees of separation thing to make it look like there are nefarious connections with the conspirators. And then the opposition labels them "batshit crazy."

The 9/11 Timeline(cooperative research) was originally pieced together through a collective effort by 9/11 family members(the ones that forced the 9/11 Commission to be started) Kristen Breitweiser, Patty Casazza, Lorie Van Auken, Mindy Kleinberg and researcher Paul Thompson(who runs/ran the site).They basically did the work we expected our own government to do...which is to provide evidence. The patriotsquestion9/11 website speaks for itself. You have 9/11 Commissioners, Senior military, government officials, pilots, architects, and family members(victims) all calling bullshit on the official story. Or so the tale goes.

I think the US got caught with it's pants down and I'm not surprised that they would obfuscate and deflect the details in order to minimize the political fallout. Perhaps it's a matter of national security, perhaps something nefarious did happen, or perhaps the details were just too embarrassing. We'll probably never know. Non answers and wheel spinning seems to be what governments do best. I'm not a fan of the government. I think it's inept and broken. Governments in general are a part of the two headed viper that is destroying our world, the other head being religion (perhaps that's too strong an image, but you get the idea).

Anyway, I see so many of these people calling "bullshit" and they have military titles (many retired before 9/11), or are in some sort of relevant field such as architects, or they're family members of victims, but most of them don't have any more information than the rest of us. Okay, so an architect says the building couldn't have collapsed like that. Well plenty of architects and structural engineers disagree. Why accept one expert over another? The fact of the matter is that these people are in the minority and they're probably looking at youtube videos and google images just like you and I can do.

Sometimes, there are some compelling ones, but what do we know about those people? We see a title, we here "expert" and assume they must know more than we do. But what if they really are batshit crazy? What if they have an axe to grind? Does anyone explore the backgrounds of those people? Conspiracy theorists trump them up as sympathetic patriots, heroes facing down Goliath, but what if they're lonely little people who just want attention?

Is it possible that some of the very tactics the conspiracy theorists accuse the government of can be employed by them? The misinformation machine can go both ways, can't it?

Like I've said before, there's too many questions that plague my mind on this thing.

I'll leave it with a quote from a 9/11 First responder by the name of David Miller, who is suffering from respitory illness(cancer) related to toxic ground zero air quality. He supports this fringe movement called the "twoofers" and he says "Everytime Popular Mechanics calls the people of this movement "nuts", these propagandists, professional liars, and tools who can not by any stretch of imagination be considered journalists, strike another nail into another coffin of anothe rescue worker." 40,000 rescue workers who were lied to by the EPA and cant get affordable coverage today.

If you want to marginalize and make a mockery of people because they have certain beliefs, or in this regard, questions and objections about 9/11 that YOU dont agree with, then that's on you.

Okay, see this gets the opposite reaction from me then what it's designed to do. Maybe I'm missing something, but how are the health concerns related to the 9/11 aftermath (concerns that might be warranted) related to the greater conspiracy theory? Why must we accept the conspiracy theory in order to accept that there were undisclosed health concerns during the clean up? There may be a good answer to that, I don't know.

I work at a fifty year old school that's being renovated right now. Anyone who's worked here over the last few years knows damn well there's asbestos in the floors because there have been abatement crews here on two separate occasions. But this summer they began demolishing the interior of the school, replacing the floors, with no regard for that fact. They kept telling us it was safe, but we knew that was nonsense. It wasn't safe and they had us and their own workers walking through that filth as it drifted through the air.

I have no problem with the idea that the 9/11 clean up workers were exposed to nasty stuff. I'd be surprised if they weren't.

Mind you, I'm not saying I absolutely agree that there was a problem, just that I'm prepared to accept there was if it appears that was the case. I just don't see why it has to be used as an emotional ploy to sell the bigger conspiracy.

What do you think of Barry Jennings? Did he exist to before this video. Barry Jennings: WTC 7 (Explosions) Interview - YouTube

I watched the video and I believed him, I just don't think he understood the bigger context of what was happening around him that day. I actually trust the people who were on the ground in NY and at the Pentagon less than I trust people who had a broader view of what was going on. It's not that I don't believe them, but I think they lacked perspective. They viewed the events through tunnel vision and emotionally charged, panicked tunnel vision, at that.

We know that rumors abounded and that the sounds going on around them were horrific and disorienting. I would imagine that two of the tallest building in the world pancaking in on themselves would make repetitive and thunderous sounds as each floor collided into the next. I would expect it to have a similar sound to the systematic popping associated with controlled demolition. Logic tells me that if you're a structural engineer designing buildings of that size, god forbid, if they ever came down, you'd want them to fall straight down, not fall over. It just makes sense to minimize collateral damage. Those buildings fell the way they were designed to fall, but it wasn't perfect. They ultimately took tower 7 with them.

That doesn't seem like a stretch to me. What does seem like a stretch is an army of men in black infiltrating the three buildings and rigging them for demolition without a single person saying, "umm excuse me? What are you doing sir?" And on top of that, still flying planes into the buildings just to sell the whole thing, without, I might add, knowing whether the debris from towers 1 and 2 would damage tower 7 enough to sell the story!

Why not say the terrorists rigged the buildings for demolition and leave the planes out of it? Wouldn't that have been an easier, more straight forward story to sell, especially since an attempt to bomb them had already happened once before?

And another thing, unfortunately Barry Jennings died under unspecified circumstances. People die all the time. All people die, in fact. Why would they kill this one guy, who really wasn't adding much to the discussion, AFTER he'd already said what he had to say publicly? I read this thing about the private investigator who was hired to look into his death and the PI cut off the job abruptly. Is it possible that the family wanted the cause of Jenning's death to remain undisclosed for innocent reasons of their own choosing? Is it possible that the guy who hired the PI wasn't entirely honest with the PI and, when the PI uncovered the facts of the case, was simply disgusted that he was being hired to pry into the lives of a family mourning the loss of a loved one?

Too many questions. And I've already spent too much time asking them.

 

[Kin Wagner]

Whomever Cloud turned his footage over to, added a black blob. Clifton, did not hear nor see a plane. It would have been coming from his left. Clifton, debunks all video fakery shown on 911. Advance to 2:00 for his real-time account. He says it over and over and over and over. He didn't see a plane because there was no plane to see. The blob cannot be seen south of where it magically appeared. He was about a mile east of the towers and slightly north.

"I just caught the second explosion on videotape...No, a bomb, I saw it, no plane hit nothin', the building exploded from the other tower floors down."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2unTcZnY30&list=PL1C1F97A9B8B8D8AE&index=139&feature=plpp_video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTkzxaHAcNc

 

[Kin Wagner]

I was able capture the orb as it peeked out and then a quick edit occurs to well after the explosion. These guys did not see a plane and were confused as to how the south tower exploded. There's little doubt they made mention of the object and that audio would've been edited out too. There are countless videos with the impact edited out because they weren't going to insert fake plane images into all of them. You can see him pan to the right when the bogey caught his eye.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHaVi...ure=plpp_video

 

[Kin Wagner]

WB11's, wackadoodle coverage of a flying bomb and failed computer graphics

"A lot of ah, uncertainty right now as to what is happening, you can see there are choppers--I believe that could be a police helicopter that is co...oooh."

She only mentioned choppers being in the area after the drone came into frame. She was stunned and shocked when the tower exploded because what appeared on screen had no wings or propeller, which is the very reason she said it only might be a chopper. She used the smallest aircraft that most people would be familiar that fit closest in size to the unknown flying blob. She could have said it was a green concord, but its unknown status would remain for anyone dealing in reality.

"We just saw another (long pause because she did not describe a plane) live picture of, duhhh, what I believe, duhhh, was a plane that just hit another plane?" So, it went from an unidentifiable chopper, to, duh, what she knew had to be a plane because that's what was supposed to happen, but didn't.

She first described it as what might be a police helicopter and after she realized it caused the explosion, changed her thoughts in that moment. These women literally got trapped in the twilight zone. If it wasn't a helicopter, (no propeller) it certainly could not have been a plane. She simply repeated what it was supposed to be, but the orb was shown at least six more times and was described as a plane or twin engine jet.

The first computer generated image was first shown only one minute after the last orb. You can see the time change to 9:27. The fake image is so poor that it has no wings and two dots for engines. Notice the bogey move directly east and cgi more left/north.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKj0H...8D8AE&index=30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIyGE...8D8AE&index=34

 

[Panopticon]

^This guy is some sort of bot. I have seen those exact same posts on another forum. More of that TV fakery nonsense. No links, no sources, just bold letters, underlines, and horribly edited videos that dont even appear to have real time commentary of the event.

Just some more baseless and retarded theories being thrown out there to distort truth and discredit any legitimacy these 9/11 conspiracy theories may or may not have. We all fuckin know planes hit buildings, people witnessed this, cameras witnessed this, survivors, ect. What u talkin bout Kin Wagner?


Dont start a JFK thread because I bet this guy will make posts that look identical to this, except he will be arguing that it was the driver that shot him all along. He will use grainy video to prove this.

 

[Panopticon]

There are a ton of links about this conspiracy and I've read through some of them, but there are just as many links that counter them. And the ones that defend the official position tend to make more sense to me, personally. The truther side labels their opposition as government cronies and do the six degrees of separation thing to make it look like there are nefarious connections with the conspirators. And then the opposition labels them "batshit crazy."

Show me the best "counter" to them. I'm curious to what claims they actually counter. My guess is that these links "countered" speculative bullshit(The weakest claims in the first Loose Change movie for instance)about airplane pods, no plane theories, whether or not a plane hit the pentagon(I've bitten hard into this one myself). There is very little fact to support CT arguements in those topics so of coarse these "debunking" websites use them to build strawman arguements and knock em down.

In regards to their "debunking" claims of a WTC demolition, you have to remember what you said(Somewhere below this haha). It's a game of My Experts vs. Your Experts. "My scientific analysis of the collapse is superior to yours" and here are my facts why....

Fact of the matter is, whether it is NIST, or a scientist endorsed by the CT movement, NONE of them ever did a full and proper examination and investigation of the actual buildings. Both sides are using physics to prove their arguements, but without a proper examination of the actual building material all of it is hogwash as far as empirical truth is concerned.

I think the US got caught with it's pants down and I'm not surprised that they would obfuscate and deflect the details in order to minimize the political fallout. Perhaps it's a matter of national security, perhaps something nefarious did happen, or perhaps the details were just too embarrassing. We'll probably never know. Non answers and wheel spinning seems to be what governments do best. I'm not a fan of the government. I think it's inept and broken. Governments in general are a part of the two headed viper that is destroying our world, the other head being religion (perhaps that's too strong an image, but you get the idea).

I see your point. However, if we did get caught with our pants down, and if our government is inept and broken(Which I wont argue against) then we seemed to pick up the ball in a big way by justifying a war in Afghanistan which the Bush Administration had been planning since Jan of 2001, and met on it on 9/9/01.
How wonderful that freedom hating islamic radicals attacked us two days later. Now we didnt need a campaign to get public support for it!

And if our intelligence agencies are that fuckin stupid that they cant put the 65 billion dollar a year funding to good use as a means of National Security, then that right there is a crime in itself. What do they do with all of that? They had followed a number of the highjackers since the mid 90s, but they didnt notify the FBI, instead they gave them Visas and flight training. They knew who Atta was through the Able Danger program in 1999, as well as other highjackers, but terabytes of those documents were destroyed. What kind of punishment did they get? Oh that's right, increased funding.

You forgot to mention that this two headed viper has a dick. It penetrates every facet of society with it's rich, and powerful wang. The two heads are there to negotiate some more action for it. It reeks of mcdonalds fries, oil, toxic waste, weapons and munitions, and dead fish(environmental destruction. Boo)

It has a prince albert piercing, made out of gold from fort knox. You get it,
And for being such dumbass motherfuckers with no anticipation, they sure reacted quickly and concisely by drafting and passing a highly ambitious legislation known as the Patriot Act. The Neo cons couldnt stop islamic hijackers, but thats ok, it was a perfect excuse to fulfill the goals outlined in the PNAC document of 2000. They were less successful in connecting Iraq to 9/11, but in the end we got there anyway.



Anyway, I see so many of these people calling "bullshit" and they have military titles (many retired before 9/11), or are in some sort of relevant field such as architects, or they're family members of victims, but most of them don't have any more information than the rest of us. Okay, so an architect says the building couldn't have collapsed like that. Well plenty of architects and structural engineers disagree. Why accept one expert over another? The fact of the matter is that these people are in the minority and they're probably looking at youtube videos and google images just like you and I can do.

Let's take the offical government funded NIST analysis................

They built 3d models of the buildings. They attempted to recreate heat and fire in the buildings, and what it would take to melt the steel, or compromise the integrity and structure of the towers. Most of their test models resulted in No structural collapse due to fire. Not the conclusion they were trying to arrive at, so they altered a few things, changed some numbers around. made the buildings weaker, and boom, we have scientific proof of a global(pancake?) collapse due to fire(The first 3 in history)

How exactly is that a scientific study? They knew they werent allowed to arrive to any other conclusion, so they altered their findings to arrive at the predetermined conclusion. I never read their 500 hundred page document, but from what I understand, they dont even bother trying to explain the collapses.

How can one hypothesis be regarded as truth while the other is dismissed as conspiracy theory? Arent they both just theories anyway? Nobody got the chance to examine the most perplexing structural collapse in history because Mayor Giuliani ordered the debris to be melted, recycled, and shipped to China before FEMA, NIST, or any independent agencies could examine it. Who cares right? We already know what happened.

Sometimes, there are some compelling ones, but what do we know about those people? We see a title, we here "expert" and assume they must know more than we do. But what if they really are batshit crazy? What if they have an axe to grind? Does anyone explore the backgrounds of those people? Conspiracy theorists trump them up as sympathetic patriots, heroes facing down Goliath, but what if they're lonely little people who just want attention?

Yah, what if?

Is it possible that some of the very tactics the conspiracy theorists accuse the government of can be employed by them? The misinformation machine can go both ways, can't it? Definitely. It can go all ways actually.

Like I've said before, there's too many questions that plague my mind on this thing. Me too. We got different questions.

Okay, see this gets the opposite reaction from me then what it's designed to do. Maybe I'm missing something, but how are the health concerns related to the 9/11 aftermath (concerns that might be warranted) related to the greater conspiracy theory? Why must we accept the conspiracy theory in order to accept that there were undisclosed health concerns during the clean up? There may be a good answer to that, I don't know. My point was. They publicly lied about the air quality, they covered up and refuse to acknowledge the aftermath of respitory illness and cancer, therefore, I MAY conclude, that MAYBE, they are lying and covering up more. I dont trust liars do you? Why would I believe one thing they say if I've seen them lie before? The EPA drafted documents that stated that clean up workers needed proper equipment to work in such toxic air quality, the White House intercepted it, and changed warnings to reassuring statements so their workers could hurry up and clean their mess so Wall Street could open back up. Some may call it Moralfaggotry, I call it a blatant crime.

Those people got suckered into thinking they were heroes for their country, and when they needed help from their country they get called kooks, conspiracy nuts, didnt get medical support for their ground zero illness, and to this day dont get much coverage, if any. That's messed up bro.

I work at a fifty year old school that's being renovated right now. Anyone who's worked here over the last few years knows damn well there's asbestos in the floors because there have been abatement crews here on two separate occasions. But this summer they began demolishing the interior of the school, replacing the floors, with no regard for that fact. They kept telling us it was safe, but we knew that was nonsense. It wasn't safe and they had us and their own workers walking through that filth as it drifted through the air.

I have no problem with the idea that the 9/11 clean up workers were exposed to nasty stuff. I'd be surprised if they weren't.

Mind you, I'm not saying I absolutely agree that there was a problem, just that I'm prepared to accept there was if it appears that was the case. I just don't see why it has to be used as an emotional ploy to sell the bigger conspiracy.

If you saw it as an appeal to emotion to sell a conspiracy theory, then I'm afraid you missed my point. Rescue and clean up workers are first hand testimony of the aftermath. Some reported molten steel, some report a huge building complex pulverized to dust. some were members of the Family Steering Comittee, others went public with their testimony and got dismissed as confused paranoid nuts who were too shocked to percieve the moment in a clear manner to be credible, ect.

I was just adressing a general point that there is a tendency among people to assume that 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists are foundationally a bunch of lifeless hacks who have no skin invested in the game, so it is easy for them to question the events and present wild theories of the events that may morally offend 9/11 families and survivors.

My point is that the batshit crazy conspiracy nut movement started with people who lost family members on 9/11 or survived the event. In the end their perspective is more relevant than mine or yours.

I watched the video and I believed him, I just don't think he understood the bigger context of what was happening around him that day. I actually trust the people who were on the ground in NY and at the Pentagon less than I trust people who had a broader view of what was going on. It's not that I don't believe them, but I think they lacked perspective. They viewed the events through tunnel vision and emotionally charged, panicked tunnel vision, at that.
Right. I dont disagree, I cant imagine being able to remember events clearly and correctly if I was under a great deal of panic and distress at the time.

We know that rumors abounded and that the sounds going on around them were horrific and disorienting. I would imagine that two of the tallest building in the world pancaking in on themselves would make repetitive and thunderous sounds as each floor collided into the next. I would expect it to have a similar sound to the systematic popping associated with controlled demolition. Logic tells me that if you're a structural engineer designing buildings of that size, god forbid, if they ever came down, you'd want them to fall straight down, not fall over. It just makes sense to minimize collateral damage. Those buildings fell the way they were designed to fall, but it wasn't perfect. They ultimately took tower 7 with them.
I have one problem with the pancake theory, and that is that if seems impossible for that many floors to collapse on eachother in less than 12 seconds. There seemed to be little to no resistance from the floors below. Like walking through ten open doors instead of opening each one and the going them. I see what you mean about designing buildings to collapse into it's own footprint to minimize collateral damage....but that is essentially how controlled demolitions are executed.

Besides the building severely damaged so many other surrounding buildings that it is bizarre that only WTC7 collapsed in 7 seconds from structural damage and fire.

That doesn't seem like a stretch to me. What does seem like a stretch is an army of men in black infiltrating the three buildings and rigging them for demolition without a single person saying, "umm excuse me? What are you doing sir?" And on top of that, still flying planes into the buildings just to sell the whole thing, without, I might add, knowing whether the debris from towers 1 and 2 would damage tower 7 enough to sell the story!

Why not say the terrorists rigged the buildings for demolition and leave the planes out of it? Wouldn't that have been an easier, more straight forward story to sell, especially since an attempt to bomb them had already happened once before?

And another thing, unfortunately Barry Jennings died under unspecified circumstances. People die all the time. All people die, in fact. Why would they kill this one guy, who really wasn't adding much to the discussion, AFTER he'd already said what he had to say publicly? I read this thing about the private investigator who was hired to look into his death and the PI cut off the job abruptly. Is it possible that the family wanted the cause of Jenning's death to remain undisclosed for innocent reasons of their own choosing? Is it possible that the guy who hired the PI wasn't entirely honest with the PI and, when the PI uncovered the facts of the case, was simply disgusted that he was being hired to pry into the lives of a family mourning the loss of a loved one?

Too many questions. And I've already spent too much time asking them.
Very interesting questions. Do you have any regarding the official conspiracy theory? The one proven and substantiated by torture renditions that the CIA destroyed tapes and documents for?

Noddy, Obviously I could have responded to this over six months ago. I started to, then decided researching 9/11 links is a total mindfuck, resulting in a headache, a new found stupidity/enlightenment/confusion, and just a stark realization that we dont know shit, will likely never know shit, and need to give up on chasing rabbits that went through the hole 11 years ago. At this point there hasn't been any relevant new information about it in years.

Let's just say you win. We both love Breaking Bad, so I see no reason to argue on a damn thing Just pissed off that it will once again leave me hanging off a cliff by my balls this year, because it got split into two mini seasons. As a conspiracy fuck, I kind of doubt 2013 will even come of age!

Debating 9/11 conspiracy theories is so 2006 to me though. I used to love getting into it back in the day. These days it's not fun because it is too much work to show someone around the internet(too much BS)...... and when it was fun, I ADMIT, it was about shitslinging more than convincing my opponent of the truth. I'm a primate at heart still, what can I say.

This is still an emotionally touchy subject to discuss. People just need to just grow some balls and realize that their family members are overseas fighting illegal wars justified by a huge load of bullshit fed to us when we were scared.

 

[Kin Wagner]

Whenever the no plane truth comes up, the first question that pops into my mind is, how did the 65 passengers on flight 175 fit into an orb that was 3-5 feet wide?

 

[Kin Wagner]

Eyewitness testimony is the most unreliable evidence and has put more innocent people behind bars than any other. I already explained it many times and posted the clips. The fake plane images from the west circled the towers which is impossible for a real airplane, and the official flight path had fake 175 flying over the bay in the final 14 seconds. The orb passed east of the north tower in the final few seconds which is why the shadow was cast. Flight 175 could not have left a shadow logically or officially, therefore the official myth of planes is in doubt for that fact and many others. The shadow is so distinct because the orb literally moved in between the towers, turning right and finally left across the rear of tower 2.

 

[Kin Wagner]

http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0110/images/m04.jpg

"And then heard this noise that seemed to come from everywhere but didn't...had no idea what it was and then the south tower just exploded, it just it just, it just blew up. And somebody said that was a plane and I was like, "I was underneath it, I was looking at the tower, I had my camera in my hand, I heard the noise, I never saw the airplane."

David, did not hear or see an approaching plane and did not photograph one. He would have heard the roaring engines and plane coming in at over 500 mph. NO REAL PLANE HIT THE SOUTH TOWER.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHrbQ0u3xzk&list=PL1C1F97A9B8B8D8AE&index=25

 

[Kin Wagner]

Using crap fuzzy very low quality heavily distorted badly compressed clips from youtube is not evidence of real boeings.

Why don't the plane idiots source the originals and go buy themselves some copies and make a short video showing something different than blurry black blobs with wings and engines misplaced that all support cgi planes? Because they know that all plane photographs and videos are easily proven fakes.

You have to admit if that happened and it showed real boeings as you don't claim, then honest thinking folks would have to rethink their conclusions that jackass fakery was used on 911. A real boeing banking left does not make the right engine appear closer to the fuselage, nor can the left wing be attached to air with the flap open on the front, instead of rear where it must be, but isn't, because it's a disasterous fake failure.

The hinged control surfaces are used to steer and control the airplane. The flaps and ailerons are connected to the backside of the wings. The flaps slide back and down to increase the surface of the wing area. They also tilt down to increase the curve of the wing. The slats move out from the front of the wings to make the wing space larger. This helps to increase the lifting force of the wing at slower speeds like takeoff and landing. The ailerons are hinged on the wings and move downward to push the air down and make the wing tilt up. This moves the plane to the side and helps it turn during flight. After landing, the spoilers are used like air brakes to reduce any remaining lift and slow down the airplane.

 

[Kin Wagner]

The area right of the towers when facing south will always be west and plenty of witnesses said west, over Newark, or from the Jersey side. It all means west, which was not flight 175.

CNN.com - Transcripts
This man had a north view of the towers and saw the drone coming from the west.

OK, we actually have an "Eyewitness News" reporter, Dr. J. Atlasberg (ph) who was downtown at the time and he is on the phone with us live.

Dr. J., what can you tell us?

DR. J. ATLASBERG (ph), REPORTER: Hello, Steve.

I'm actually uptown at 86th and Riverside. I can see the World Trade Center from about half the building up to the top. And about five minutes ago, as I was watching the smoke, a small plane -- I did -- it looked like a propeller plane, came in from the west.

And about 20 or 25 stories below the top of the center, disappeared for a second, and then explode behind a water tower, so I couldn't tell whether it hit the building or not. But it was very visible, that a plane had come in at a low altitude and appeared to crash into the World Trade Center.

 

[Kin Wagner]

Chopper 4 is the longest live broadcast before the south tower's explosion that starts around two minutes beforehand. If flight 175 was really involved, it would have been filmed way behind and (southwest) right of the towers at some point during its descent. It had to fly just northeast/past the statue of liberty making a hard right and left turn into the southeast corner. None of this occurs because there was no plane, but a very small orb that floats for less than ten seconds before disappearing behind the towers. It leaves a very distinct shadow in the final seconds before explosion which proves that it literally circled around the south tower before bumping into it. It becomes visible at 2:14 on top right of screen.

The 911 commission, properly and logically concluded that 175 had to fly over New York Bay in its final seconds, therefore, any object seen west of the towers could not be flight 175. The shadow between the towers seen in three broadcasts is that of the drone, because it logically and officially could not have flown east of Tower 1 in its final 3-5 seconds, which is required to create the shadow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_caQ9ZsGycY&list=PL1C1F97A9B8B8D8AE&index=95&feature=plpp_video