What's the strongest argument for atheism?

[Old Things]

I experienced things happening in the environment I relate to God trying to tell me something.

I have no problem with that whatsoever. God communicates to us in all sorts of ways. But that is a kind of evidence for God. It is not the be-all-end-all to end the conversation about whether God exists or not.

you said though experience was about ideas being correct or incorrect.

to me, I experience lots of things like the five senses or love

so what makes an experience of God just an idea and not real?

can

The point is that here on earth sometimes our emotions line up with our experience and sometimes they don't. When they don't something is wrong. That's more fundamental than just "happy = good, sad = wrong."

 

[Black Rose]

I experienced things happening in the environment I relate to God trying to tell me something.

I have no problem with that whatsoever. God communicates to us in all sorts of ways. But that is a kind of evidence for God. It is not the be-all-end-all to end the conversation about whether God exists or not.

you said though experience was about ideas being correct or incorrect.

to me, I experience lots of things like the five senses or love

so what makes an experience of God just an idea and not real?

can

The point is that here on earth sometimes our emotions line up with our experience and sometimes they don't. When they don't something is wrong. That's more fundamental than just "happy = good, sad = wrong."

So because atheist do not see God they are wrong in some way about what in not happening to them, i.e. what is not happening is they are not seeing God.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

To say someone is feeling the wrong things is basically saying there's something wrong with them I guess is what I am getting at.

Yes, and I would say there is something wrong with everyone.

Your catholic is showing

 

[Old Things]

I experienced things happening in the environment I relate to God trying to tell me something.

I have no problem with that whatsoever. God communicates to us in all sorts of ways. But that is a kind of evidence for God. It is not the be-all-end-all to end the conversation about whether God exists or not.

you said though experience was about ideas being correct or incorrect.

to me, I experience lots of things like the five senses or love

so what makes an experience of God just an idea and not real?

can

The point is that here on earth sometimes our emotions line up with our experience and sometimes they don't. When they don't something is wrong. That's more fundamental than just "happy = good, sad = wrong."

So because atheist do not see God they are wrong in some way about what in not happening to them, i.e. what is not happening is they are not seeing God.

Yes (if you meant "they are wrong in some way about what is not happening to them"), but something is happening to them.

 

[birdsnestfern]

That the idea of heaven and hell should make you realize that many things in every day life are permeated with both.
The more adept we are at underworld journeys, the more victorious we are on the upper world path.
You've got to transverse all these areas, high and low so you ARE prepared and adept. The bible is too simplified, it says fire and brimstone when in reality, you need to experience all of it like an epic journey to transcend. Don't look at it as black and white, but as one and the same world and how you work through it with problem solving day to day. I think thats part of being reciprocal with the universes mind.

 

[Old Things]

The bible is too simplified

This is a very ignorant comment.

 

[sushi]

atheism is just a form of nihilsm, or nonexistance thereof.
God is unprovable therefore he does not exist.

 

[Old Things]

God is unprovable therefore he does not exist.

Thanks for the laugh.

 

[birdsnestfern]

I mean heaven and hell are part of life. You can't exclude one or the other. The bible is too simplified in that context in that it says don't tread on the shadow side, when in reality, you must tread on both sides to be whole. It is oversimplified view of good and bad. Look at them as the same thing, on different ends of a spectrum and that you couldn't have good without bad, both extremes are in a sort of a loop, like night and day, Summer and Winter, Dark and Light. They need each other as part of the whole ball of life.

 

[Old Things]

I mean heaven and hell are part of life. You can't exclude one or the other. The bible is too simplified in that context in that it says don't tread on the shadow side, when in reality, you must tread on both sides to be whole. It is oversimplified view of good and bad. Look at them as the same thing, on different ends of a spectrum and that you couldn't have good without bad, both extremes are in a sort of a loop, like night and day, Summer and Winter, Dark and Light. They need each other as part of the whole ball of life.

Your ignorance is really showing here. As if to say that the way the Bible portrays no positive and negative experiences on this side of things... Some denominations do believe that heaven and hell are felt here on earth. So just stop. You don't know the theology of the Bible. You think you do, but you don't. I don't go around criticizing how you throw salt over your shoulder.

 

[Black Rose]

We cannot all know what God is.

That is because not everyone experiences God.

So it is that not everyone has met God.

That is personal so can not be invalidated.

 

[Old Things]

We cannot all know what God is.

That is because not everyone experiences God.

So it is that not everyone has met God.

That is personal so can not be invalidated.

An atheist wakes up alive most of the time. Being alive is definitely something.

 

[birdsnestfern]

I don't know the bible, and I am not an expert in it, only that the tv evangelists always make you fear hell, and make you afraid to do or try things or think differently, when in truth, that seems wrong.

This thread is about the strongest argument for atheism, not the bible.

 

[Old Things]

I don't know the bible, and I am not an expert in it, only that the tv evangelists always make you fear hell, and make you afraid to do or try things or think differently, when in truth, that seems wrong.

This thread is about the strongest argument for atheism, not the bible.

I would agree with you that those TV Evangelists (who ask grandma for her last $500) are wrong. But to say that is evidence against Christianity (and God) wholesale is a real stretch.

 

[Black Rose]

asking questions is a good place to start

most times atheists just live life without asking because they are not affected by life negatively to seek more answers, to them life just is, so why ask?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

atheism is just a form of nihilsm, or nonexistance thereof.

not necessarily

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Your ignorance is really showing here. As if to say that the way the Bible portrays no positive and negative experiences on this side of things... Some denominations do believe that heaven and hell are felt here on earth. So just stop. You don't know the theology of the Bible. You think you do, but you don't. I don't go around criticizing how you throw salt over your shoulder.

does the same logic hold true for something else ?


do you think it would be fair to say that you don't call yourself a taoist

simply because you are unfamiliar with EVERY SINGLE taoist teaching ?


and if you spent your entire life studying taoism

you would certainly call yourself a taoist ?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

What makes empty space empty rather than space that is non-empty?

space-time itself is not "NoThing"

also

quantum foam

 

[Black Rose]

What makes empty space empty rather than space that is non-empty?

space-time itself is not "NoThing"

also

quantum foam

so you can tell me why it exists?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

so you can tell me why it exists?

because "NOthing"

can only exist

NOwhere

at NOtime

and takes up NOspace

 

[EndogenousRebel]

My only issue @Old Things is that you are taking reading the bible to be some sort of badge or something.

If I knew Latin or Hebrew, I would definitely be interested in reading the bible, but since I don't, I won't.

To me these are the people of their time trying to make sense of the world, and it's basically a dated manuscript that might have some good commonsense, and even some tactful commentary, but I would definitely opt to read some self-help book off the shelf than the bible.

I am pretty much dismissing something I have only had cursory looks at, but this once I can do that. I didn't read Twilight either.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

atheism is just a form of nihilsm, or nonexistance thereof.

buddhists do not believe in immortal beings

 

[Black Rose]

so you can tell me why it exists?

because "NOthing"

can only exist

NOwhere

at NOtime

and takes up NOspace

that is not saying anything at all.

the pen on my desk:

why does it not simply disappear? what keeps it from disappearing?

 

[Black Rose]

what I am getting at is ontological

what do things exist at all

 

[Old Things]

Your ignorance is really showing here. As if to say that the way the Bible portrays no positive and negative experiences on this side of things... Some denominations do believe that heaven and hell are felt here on earth. So just stop. You don't know the theology of the Bible. You think you do, but you don't. I don't go around criticizing how you throw salt over your shoulder.

does the same logic hold true for something else ?


do you think it would be fair to say that you don't call yourself a taoist

simply because you are unfamiliar with EVERY SINGLE taoist teaching ?


and if you spent your entire life studying taoism

you would certainly call yourself a taoist ?

Other religions do not believe the Holy Spirit inhabits a person when they are converted like Christianity. So, yes. It is different.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

what I am getting at is ontological

what do things exist at all

because "not existing" is impossible

 

[Black Rose]

what I am getting at is ontological

what do things exist at all

because "not existing" is impossible

but only certain things exist

the distribution is not sysemetrical

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Other religions do not believe the Holy Spirit inhabits a person when they are converted like Christianity. So, yes. It is different.

that's not part of the argument

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

but only certain things exist

the distribution is not sysemetrical

based on what framework ?

 

[Old Things]

Other religions do not believe the Holy Spirit inhabits a person when they are converted like Christianity. So, yes. It is different.

that's not part of the argument

And yet it is completely relevant.

 

[Black Rose]

but only certain things exist

the distribution is not sysemetrical

based on what framework ?

matter and energy

why is the distribution as it is?

why not just a random distribution instead of an ordered one?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

And yet it is completely relevant.

why would you argue that someone can't "logically" lack faith in YHWH (IFF) they haven't studied the holyscriptures enough to know if they lack faith in YHWH

if your REAL argument is simply


the holy spirit needs to possess you first

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

matter and energy

why is the distribution as it is?

why not just a random distribution instead of an ordered one?

all truly random distributions contain ordered sets

 

[Black Rose]

matter and energy

why is the distribution as it is?

why not just a random distribution instead of an ordered one?

all truly random distributions contain ordered sets

is it possible for objects to appear and disappear?

Why cannot I just imagine things into existence?

why cannot they imagine themselves into existence?

 

[Old Things]

if your REAL argument is simply


the holy spirit needs to possess you first

Yes, and God does that through people most of the time.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

is it possible for objects to appear and disappear?

quantum foam

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Why cannot I just imagine things into existence?

well, if you're an architect, you might be able to manifest a tower

 

[Black Rose]

is it possible for objects to appear and disappear?

quantum foam

I know you do not know the answer.

that is why you dodge the question

but the question of why things exist is important

things exist in space but some space is empty

so maybe there is a reason?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

things exist in space but some space is empty

nope, there is always quantum foam

there is no truly "empty space"

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

things exist in space but some space is empty

 

[Black Rose]

things exist in space but some space is empty

nope, there is always quantum foam

there is no truly "empty space"

first of all, you dodged the question again,

if foams exists: then why does it exist?

second:

you are saying,

there is no difference between space with an object in it and space without an object in it.

you refuse to clarify the difference between existence and non-existence

 

[birdsnestfern]

I think ephesians 6:5 is one argument against biblical indoctrination. Who really thinks God would endorse slavery?
This has got to be mans writing.

 

[ZenRaiden]

This has got to be mans writing.

Everything in bible is mans writing.
When Christians say its word of God, what they mean, these are accounts of what we know about this duded who claims to be son of God. But that is mouth full.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

you refuse to clarify the difference between existence and non-existence

non-existence

doesn't

exist

because

it could only exist (hypothetically)


NOWHERE at NOTIME and take up NOSPACE

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

but the question of why things exist is important

please explain

things simply exist because they must

they don't really have any choice in the matter

it seems you've discovered the teleological fallacy

 

[Black Rose]

@LOGICZOMBIE

you cannot understand

so goodbye

 

[Old Things]

I think ephesians 6:5 is one argument against biblical indoctrination. Who really thinks God would endorse slavery?
This has got to be mans writing.

Does not say that slavery is good or desirable. Also, the slavery that Paul is talking about there is different from than chattel slavery of the deep south USA.

You should also read the book if Philemon as a different look at slavery.

My PoV of why the Bible does not outright say, "Don't do slavery" is the same reason why Jesus says,

Matthew 19:7-9
"“Why then,” they asked him, “did Moses command us to give divorce papers and to send her away?”
He told them, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of the hardness of your hearts, but it was not like that from the beginning. I tell you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another commits adultery.”"

Given that the men were in power at that time, they abused this by divorcing their wives for little reason sometimes. And that is what Jesus is combatting. It is much the same with women divorcing men today in our society for little to no reason.

 

[Black Rose]

@birdsnestfern what @Old Things is saying is that people long ago as today do not obey Gods words. You cannot expect things to change unless we start at some point in time with God telling people what is right and wrong. It then needs to spread to everyone from that central point. So the start is with Abraham then we go to Moses then we go to Jesus. No one would obey God except Abraham then Moses set up the laws people disobeyed as well and now Jesus is supposed to show us the way for all humans.

In the New Testament, many times people had to be told the difference between the old ways and the new ways. It is because people cannot think in the right way (Gods way) to begin with.

Here Paul talks about the law (what is required under the customs) that man can not follow perfectly in regard to being in Christ:

Galations 5

1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Paul is saying that in no way can humans justify themselves to God to become perfect. only Jesus can make us free, and if people are free then by no means can we justify the mistreatment of others because God sees all people as equal.

This is the complete opposite of might makes right (I can do what I want if I have power over others)

-

This may be small because I only know so many bible verses but as I grew up this was instilled in me what Jesus meant. The Bible is not a rule book, it was written to certain people at certain times. The original apostles were spending a message that required them to teach and demonstrate to others what God's new ways were. This would not have worked in the times of Moses because people still did not even know that killing was wrong.

 

[BurnedOut]

Islam

Bomb has been planted

 

[scorpiomover]

Without a belief in G-d, morals are only human conventions. They can be ignored when humans are not watching or can be bribed to look the other way.