What does it mean to be an INTP to you?-WARNING CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT

[nschlaff]

When I took the Myers-Briggs Personality Test for the first time, I liked my results. Having an ingenious, logical temperament that is rare and one of a kind is not something the average person can claim, but how limited is the Myers-Briggs test in defining individual temperament, and how seriously should we take our MBTI results?

I ask this question because I thought a lot about the nature of the MBTI. In a way, this test is manufactured by choice. In other words, if one merely "wants" to be, but is not actually an INTP, he or she can answer test questions showing favorable "preferences" for introverted, intuitive, thinking, perceiving. I use the world "preferences" because what people prefer to be is not necessarily what people are. In other words, it is possible that people score INTP on the personality test because they want to be an INTP, not necessarily because they are INTPs. To what extent do you think the MBTI results are reliable because of this issue of wanting to be a personality versus actually being that personality?

Another interesting thing that I noticed about MBTI that I would appreciate your feedback on is the labeling of certain geniuses such as Einstein, Newton, and Darwin as INTPs. Often (myself included), INTPs proudly claim that they share their temperament, as if it were a golden piece of their identity, with these great, scientific geniuses. To support this idea, academic studies have been published by researchers about the correlations between temperament and creative genius, such as the finding in a book titled "Scientific Genius: A Psychology of Science" by Dean Simonton, where the author purports that individuals with particular temperaments, such as introverted thinking and intuition, tend to be more abstract, theoretical thinkers. Isabel Myers herself, the main proponent of the MBTI, found the correlations between intuitive thinkers and higher test scores in a study published in her landmark book "Gifts Differing". However, just because an individual exhibits INTP traits, does not mean that individual can claim credit for Einstein, Newton, or any other scientific genius's accomplishments. Even if an individual exhibited INTP, genius traits such an abnormally high IQ score, it is controversial whether or not raw, exorbitant intellectual capabilities indicate genius. Rather, most geniuses "accomplish" something great. In a way, accomplishment, the application of creativity to solve some difficult, prevalent issue, and not the mere presence of creative impulse causes genius to be recognized. My question for this point is: is it necessary for someone to accomplish something noteworthy in order to be considered a genius? How do you measure or quantify genius, or is this even possible? Do you think we claim too much credit or capability for having the temperament, as separate from intellectual competence, with Einstein and the other great thinkers?

The last question that I have involves the formation of INTP culture, which I love, but am also cautious when contemplating. When a culture forms, and its various constituents congregate, there seems to form a particular pattern of acceptable behavior, as distinguished from non-acceptable behavior. In other words, two conditions must be met in order for a culture to form: 1) People naturally conform to traditions or a standard established by the whole culture AND 2) There needs to be a level of exclusivity. In order for a culture to exist (i.e. INTP), we must exclude all other personality types from this culture. I observed these two issues of conformity and exclusivity inherent in all cultures with the rise of hipster culture. Hipsters are basically people who are fans of indie music, which thrives and defines itself as "other" than mainstream music, and rejects conformity. Hipsters tend to shop at thrift stores, wearing vintage clothing. I admire hipsters' individualism and resistance to conformity; however, I realized that when the hipsters create their own "counter-culture" they are participating in a paradoxical thing. While collectively uniting in the name of non-conformity, they are conforming to their particular cause: establishing their own trends or patterns of behavior and dress, as distinct from but still behaving the same way as mainstream society. To get to the point, do you think it is even possible to have a culture, whether INTPs or otherwise, and to still maintain individuality or non-conformity (two values that INTPs tend to value tremendously)?

Please let me know what you think! I know this message questions the very existence of INTPs and our forum, but I still think these are important topics to consider.

 

[snafupants]

I use the cognitive functions and, to a lesser degree, the overarching MBTI type profiles to discern folks' personalities. Whether they agree with my analysis is immaterial to the rightness of said analysis.

It makes sense that a trait concerned with reflection, synthesis, curiosity, information, study, and global thinking (e.g., introverted intuition) would correlate with a construct also concerned with those things, namely giftedness. Introverted intuition doesn't necessarily make someone gifted, but both forms of intuition are, knowingly or otherwise, disproportionately used by gifted folk.

I would argue that a genius has no societal or definitional obligation to create "something great" to vindicate his genius status. That's an absurd notion because it relies on the adjudication of contemporaneous culture. A bloke with an IQ of 198 is perhaps a genius with or without recognition or contribution to the underlying society.

The INTP culture on the forum is a perfect foil to your conjecture. There's a very INTP vibe pervading most threads, but input comes from an array of intuitive, largely intelligent, folk. The term culture has been narrowly defined to include common interests and shared dress codes when, in fact, it could just mean common thought processes.

There can always be both conformity within a group and lack of conformity to the consensus culture of the era. Think of art school kids from the seventies who homogeneously dressed in black.

 

[nschlaff]

snafupants: Thank you for your feedback. So, say we take your definition of culture to mean similar "thought processes". Then would INTP thought processes' similarities produce a conformity of thought? Is it possible to maintain diverse or unconventional, creative thinking if everybody thinks similarly? Please correct me if I misunderstood this point.

 

[snafupants]

snafupants: Thank you for your feedback. So, say we take your definition of culture to mean similar "thought processes". Then would INTP thought processes' similarities produce a conformity of thought? Is it possible to maintain diverse or unconventional, creative thinking if everybody thinks similarly? Please correct me if I misunderstood this point.

That's not my definition of culture. I simply expanded a narrow definition of culture with another leg, namely thought processes. The presupposition and foundation for your later questions is wanting because those questions assume a harmony of terms which isn't there. Anyway, I happen to think that there are MBTI cognitive processes which are predisposed to free-thinking. In other words, introverted intuition or introverted thinking is more apt to objectively analyze the data and subjectively ascertain truth than, say, extraverted sensing, which is largely shackled to the culture, world, trends, and modalities in which it finds itself. So, yeah, a group of introverted thinkers would be more apt to think creatively and iconoclastically (a.k.a., with minimal unconscious intellectual/cultural co-option) without the whole (e.g., INTP forum) falling into homogenous blather.

 

[nschlaff]

Thank you. This makes sense then since the originality proceeds from the individual rather than from some external standard. However, I would think that the presence of an INTP "vibe" within the forum itself would be somewhat restricting, since the assumption of a common vibe is within itself an admission of conformity to some standard established by even the most free-thinking, introverted thinkers. In other words, I do not think it is possible to even create a group and dialogue between constituents without at least conforming to the group, which although distinct from most of society, is still perpetuating conformity.

 

[snafupants]

Would you prefer everyone speak a different language and talk about completely diffuse topics? How about some people wearing tin foil, and others wearing spandex and sparkles? The bias of the forum is literally in the name. Why are shared interests, aptitudes, and thought processes necessarily anathema? This seems like a phantom problem.

 

[EditorOne]

Sharing traits does not constitute conformity. As usually used in conversation, conformity is a value-laden term freighted with the idea that an individual feels an obligation to adapt some form of thought or behavior shared by others in an identifiable group. I've detected no such thing in the INTP forum, merely people who seem to communicate more quickly and with much greater assurance they are understood than in the world at large. Nobody seems to have "Gosh I need to work harder to be more like Snafupants" or anyone else on their agenda. The closest you get is when someone writes a concise post that captures something perfectly, and the "feeling" that goes with that is usually admiration followed by "I wish I'd said that."

I'm not seeing conformity, or, as snafu said, a problem.

 

[nschlaff]

I am not attempting to make any normative claims about any culture, whether INTP or otherwise. I am merely attempting to seek truth in an area that has been ambiguous to me for a long time, so I would appreciate it if you did not set up a straw man fallacy to attack my ideas instead of objectively answering the question, if you indeed value objectivity so much. Anathema is not what I am saying is a result of any group; rather, conformity according to the Oxford dictionary is "behavior in accordance with socially accepted conventions or standards" or "similarity in form or type; agreement in character". According to this definition snafupants, similar thought processes does constitute an agreement in character that is an element of conformity. Let me be clear, I am not advocating that the INTP forum is a bad thing. If conformity exists in the forum, then let conformity be towards noble causes like seeking truth or free-thinking as you mentioned earlier. But let us not be so close-minded as to not consider the possibility of conformity existing within the forum with the excuse that this is a phantom issue or that it does not exist. This is a real issue, and it is important to deal with "objectively". My point in bringing this issue up is not to exclaim what "should be", but to understand what IS. I just want to understand how conformity functions in a forum, or whether it functions at all. And I appreciate people's feedback.

 

[nschlaff]

EditorOne: I appreciate your feedback. But according to the Oxford dictionary, conformity is "behavior in accordance with socially accepted conventions or standards" or "similarity in form or type; agreement in character". According to this definition EditorOne, similar traits does constitute an agreement in character that is an element of conformity. However, I can agree with you that conformity in character may not necessarily be a bad thing, since each person brings something new to the forum. This may be where the disagreement is occurring. I would like to make it clear that I am not attempting to state whether conformity is good or bad, just whether or not it exists in a forum. According to the Oxford dictionary, it does exist on the forum.

 

[Architect]

Having an ingenious, logical temperament that is rare and one of a kind is not something the average person can claim

I came from the other direction. MBTI tests put me as either INFJ or INTJ, since those roles never fit it took some cogitation and personal observation (and knowledge of the Functions) to see I was INTP. Now I appreciate 'being the type' as it were, but I didn't see it that way previously. I answered the test for who I wanted to be, a sensitive, but driving artistic type.

but how limited is the Myers-Briggs test in defining individual temperament, and how seriously should we take our MBTI results?

The test is limiting but we should take the results very seriously

I ask this question because I thought a lot about the nature of the MBTI. In a way, this test is manufactured by choice. In other words, if one merely "wants" to be, but is not actually an INTP, he or she can answer test questions showing favorable "preferences" for introverted, intuitive, thinking, perceiving.

Yes I see many supposed INTP types on boards who really don't seem to fit. In general few people test out as Sensors because the test has an obvious bias that Sensors are stupid clods. I personally think many sensors are stupid clods, but the test needs to done in such as way as to not seem like that.

Another interesting thing that I noticed about MBTI that I would appreciate your feedback on is the labeling of certain geniuses such as Einstein, Newton, and Darwin as INTPs. Often (myself included), INTPs proudly claim that they share their temperament, as if it were a golden piece of their identity, with these great, scientific geniuses. ... How do you measure or quantify genius, or is this even possible? Do you think we claim too much credit or capability for having the temperament, as separate from intellectual competence, with Einstein and the other great thinkers?

Genius is a cultural tag I'm not interested in. If Britney Spears did science instead of shaking her booty we'd call her a genius (if it's not clear by that I mean the title Genius is a popularity contest)

To get to the point, do you think it is even possible to have a culture, whether INTPs or otherwise, and to still maintain individuality or non-conformity (two values that INTPs tend to value tremendously)?

Yes obviously. Examples are all around us. Geek culture is an example, and INTP culture doesn't fall that far from it.

 

[intpz]

I actually consider myself somewhere in between INTP, INTJ and ENTP. To be more precise, I checked out www.mypersonality.info, so here are some quotes for ENTPs that are exactly like me:

"ENTPs are idea people. Their perceptive abilities cause them to see possibilities everywhere. They get excited and enthusiastic about their ideas, and are able to spread their enthusiasm to others. In this way, they get the support that they need to fulfill their visions"

"ENTPs are usually verbally as well as cerebrally quick, and generally love to argue--both for its own sake, and to show off their often-impressive skills... argument as a sport."

INTJ quotes:

"...observer, values solitude, perfectionist, detached, private... does not talk about feelings, hard to impress, analytical, likes esoteric things..."

"INTJs are natural leaders, although they usually choose to remain in the background until they see a real need to take over the lead. When they are in leadership roles, they are quite effective, because they are able to objectively see the reality of a situation, and are adaptable enough to change things which aren't working well. They are the supreme strategists - always scanning available ideas and concepts and weighing them against their current strategy, to plan for every conceivable contingency. "

INTP quotes:

"The INTP is above all a thinker and his inner (private) world is a place governed by a strong sense of logical structure. Every experience is to be rigorously analysed, the task of the INTP's mind is to fit each encountered idea or experience into a larger structure defined by logic."

"INTPs live in the world of theoretical possibilities. They see everything in terms of how it could be improved, or what it could be turned into. They live primarily inside their own minds, having the ability to analyze difficult problems, identify patterns, and come up with logical explanations. They seek clarity in everything, and are therefore driven to build knowledge. They are the "absent-minded professors", who highly value intelligence and the ability to apply logic to theories to find solutions."

"INTPs contribute a logical, system-building approach to their work. They like being the architect of a plan, because of the scheming and thinking involved, far more than being the implementer of that plan. Implementation tends to be drudgery. They are content to sit back and think about what might work, given their view of the situation. INTPs may ignore standard operating procedures. The hours that they spend are not what is important to them, but rather the completion of their thought process"

These are the most precise quotes, there are others that I skipped. I consider them as follows: INTP - ENTP - INTJ.

Yes I see many supposed INTP types on boards who really don't seem to fit. In general few people test out as Sensors because the test has an obvious bias that Sensors are stupid clods. I personally think many sensors are stupid clods, but the test needs to done in such as way as to not seem like that.

Do I fit the profile? With no regards to the upper quotations.

 

[MichiganJFrog]

To what extent do you think the MBTI results are reliable because of this issue of wanting to be a personality versus actually being that personality?

I just retook the MBTI , but I don't know what my results are yet. I felt really conflicted about some of my responses. I feel like my status is probably going to change. Maybe I did try to game the system a little bit, I don't know. Maybe somehow, they factor in that people will try to do that.

 

[redbaron]

Wow, that was a really controversial post.

I hadn't thought that people might be dishonest on a test, or that some people think they're smarter than they really are. Or the fact that maybe the MBTI tests aren't the be-all and end-all of everything.

I'm shocked, really.

I am not attempting to state whether conformity is good or bad, just whether or not it exists in a forum. According to the Oxford dictionary, it does exist on the forum.

Consult the dictionary first next time.

 

[intpz]

I just retook the MBTI , but I don't know what my results are yet. I felt really conflicted about some of my responses. I feel like my status is probably going to change. Maybe I did try to game the system a little bit, I don't know. Maybe somehow, they factor in that people will try to do that.

What do you mean, any site gives instant results.

Wow, that was a really controversial post.

I hadn't thought that people might be dishonest on a test, or that some people think they're smarter than they really are. Or the fact that maybe the MBTI tests aren't the be-all and end-all of everything.

Wow, that sounds really closed-minded. It is kinda obvious, all of these things you've mentioned. I've never thought otherwise.

 

[MichiganJFrog]

What do you mean, any site gives instant results.

I took this one through school and paid for it, though I don't know whether it's any more accurate than the free ones you can take online.

 

[intpz]

I took this one through school and paid for it, though I don't know whether it's any more accurate than the free ones you can take online.

I actually was offered to take it at school, but after I looked through the questions, they were the same... Of course the "algorithm" can be different... But anyway, I don't think it's much different, if you can be honest with yourself.

 

[redbaron]

Wow, that sounds really closed-minded. It is kinda obvious, all of these things you've mentioned. I've never thought otherwise.

I was being deliberately obtuse. Not sure if you're doing the same

 

[pjoa09]

That whole oh-I-am-not-alone thing.

That meant a lot.

I don't like being so different.

I am not so different here.

911! Hell yeah.

 

[MissQuote]

I had no idea that I was thinking and behaving this manor my whole life just waiting for the day I would find INTPforum so I would finally fit in somewhere. Glad to have that sorted now.

Okay. I probably should read the rest of the topic before I continue to be so sarcastic.

 

[gedanken]

you are, what you want show to other people

 

[ObliviousGenius]

The last question that I have involves the formation of INTP culture, which I love, but am also cautious when contemplating. When a culture forms, and its various constituents congregate, there seems to form a particular pattern of acceptable behavior, as distinguished from non-acceptable behavior. In other words, two conditions must be met in order for a culture to form: 1) People naturally conform to traditions or a standard established by the whole culture AND 2) There needs to be a level of exclusivity. In order for a culture to exist (i.e. INTP), we must exclude all other personality types from this culture. I observed these two issues of conformity and exclusivity inherent in all cultures with the rise of hipster culture. Hipsters are basically people who are fans of indie music, which thrives and defines itself as "other" than mainstream music, and rejects conformity. Hipsters tend to shop at thrift stores, wearing vintage clothing. I admire hipsters' individualism and resistance to conformity; however, I realized that when the hipsters create their own "counter-culture" they are participating in a paradoxical thing. While collectively uniting in the name of non-conformity, they are conforming to their particular cause: establishing their own trends or patterns of behavior and dress, as distinct from but still behaving the same way as mainstream society. To get to the point, do you think it is even possible to have a culture, whether INTPs or otherwise, and to still maintain individuality or non-conformity (two values that INTPs tend to value tremendously)?

I disagree. There is no conformity on INTPf because each thought is our own. Just because individualistic and similar-minded people come together as a group does not mean we are "conforming as non-conformers". I'm not sure how you can compare hipsters (a society only related by its interests) to a group of people with the same MBTI.

I agree with what EO said. What does INTPf conform to? I think your lack of insight in this topic is your inexperience with the forum. You've only thought of the idea of INTPf being conforming in theory, but have not actually been apart of the forum culture to accurately judge a point like that. Do you feel like you are conforming by posting on this forum? Where is it that you can say beyond a doubt that someone is conforming? To even be able to measure conformity in this forum you'd need to know a member's personality beyond his/her MBTI. INTPs will act like INTPs so to say that we're conforming because we share the same cognitive functions.

Last point, come up with your own definition of conformity. What does it mean to you as an INTP. (Because most of the people on this forum would go with EO's definition). The fact that it comes from "Oxford's Dictionary" doesn't mean much to me at all.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I could have sworn Fukyo posted in here.

Well, this is INTP forum. No doubt there may be small adjustments in fitting in, that happens anywhere and everywhere. Conforming is too strong a word(see EditorOne's post), but being influenced, even indirectly, to adapt to the already present vibe of the forum and other people makes unproblematic sense.

 

[MichiganJFrog]

Wow, that was a really controversial post.

I hadn't thought that people might be dishonest on a test, or that some people think they're smarter than they really are. Or the fact that maybe the MBTI tests aren't the be-all and end-all of everything.

I'm shocked, really.

Not sure if you're responding to me or the OP. In any event, I'm looking for real-life examples of people fudging their responses, why they do so, and whether the MBTI is a sensitive enough instrument to catch it. Everything I've read so far seems to dance around the issue.