The Big Question: Willl you take the pill?

[wonkavision]

The Big Question: Will you take the pill?

Ok, so, after a 9-day hiatus (not long, I know), here I am again.

Here's my take on the "Would you take the pill?" question which was brought up in another thread....


First of all, mankind, by nature, does not want to know the truth. In fact, he intentionally suppresses the truth.

Romans 1:18,

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

EDIT: Added for clarification:
Ever since the fall of Adam in the Garden of Eden, mankind has been totally depraved.
All the descendents of Adam have inherited his totally depraved nature.
Mankind is morally incapable, and therefore totally unable, to receive the truth, unless GOD, by the Spirit, enables him.
Unless God GIVES man the will to believe, he is dead in trespasses and in sin.
He will not submit to God unless God intervenes.

Man knows that God exists, that God is the Creator and Sustainer of all things, and that, as such, he is the rightful ruler of all things, so that he is without excuse.

Romans 1:19-20,

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

God has provided abundant evidence of these things in nature, and all of mankind knows these things intuitively.
They simply refuse to acknowledge the truth and give God what is due to him.

Some worship false gods and some worship no gods at all. But all men, by nature, suppress what they know about the true God.

Romans 1:21-22,

For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Now, what God has not revaled to all men is the Gospel of salvation.

Yet, he has graciously revealed it to some.


This truth cannot be obtained through rational/scientific inquiry. It must be received at face value, as it is the declaration of Almighty God.

You must receive it by faith, like a little child. There is no other way.

Unbelief, in this matter, is the unpardonable sin.

There is no salvation outside of faith in Christ.


And, if anyone actually wishes to know the truth, and does receive the gospel, it's because God has put that desire in him.

And, furthermore that person who has been taught by God, will believe in and follow Christ, because Jesus Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is God in human flesh, and he said, in John 6:44-45,

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’

Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

So,

The "pill" which leads to the truth is the Gospel of Christ. The message of Christ, and him crucified.

Christ lay down his life for the sins of his people, all who come to him by faith manifest that they are his people.

He made atonement for them, and satisfied the justice of God on their behalf. And God's Spirit will draw them to him.


Will you come?

Will you seek mercy from God for the guilt of your sin?

Or will you remain in darkness forever?


If you do not take this pill you will remain in darkness, in your sinful, rebellious, willful ignorance, and you will be punished in hell forever.

You are guilty before God, so turn yourself in. Plead for mercy, and you will receive it.

That is the "pill'' you need to take.

Listen to this glorious promise. This is the absolute truth:

Jesus said, in John 10:26-30,

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”

So,

What will it be?

Will you take this"pill", and go deeper into understanding the truth?

Or will you remain in darkness, and perish in your sins and go to hell?


Either way, God will be glorified.

He'll be glorified in saving you, or glorified in damning you.

The question is, will you turn yourself in?


If you don't come to Christ, I lose nothing.
But you lose EVERYTHING.

Come to Christ, and be saved from the wrath to come.

He WILL NOT turn you away.

Jesus said, in John 6:37,

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

My friends,

Ultimately, God has predetermined your eternal destiny. Nothing I say can change that.

But my hope is that this post will be used by God to call at least one of his people home.

I pray at least one of you will be drawn out of darkness.

In Christ,

Wonkavision

 

[Jennywocky]

Likewise, I wish you would take a pill that would free you from your own darkness -- you are caged and behold to a fundamentalism that places you in the hell of being unable to engage other people in substantial and meaningful ways -- but as you show no inclination of facing the truth even when challenged by virtually everyone on this forum, I expect to be severely disappointed at this time.

Perhaps one day you will see more broadly than you see now. I can only hope and pray for that day, for your sake.

 

[wonkavision]

Likewise, I wish you would take a pill that would free you from your own darkness -- you are caged and behold to a fundamentalism that places you in the hell of being unable to engage other people in substantial and meaningful ways -- but as you show no inclination of facing the truth even when challenged by virtually everyone on this forum, I expect to be severely disappointed at this time.

Perhaps one day you will see more broadly than you see now. I can only hope and pray for that day, for your sake.

Jenny, there's still time left.

Stop wasting it trying to argue with me.

Your conscience tells you what I'm saying is true.

So, just stop suppressing the truth.

Your whole life is a lie, and you know it.

So, stop running.

Turn yourself in and find mercy.

 

[Rook]

Jenny, there's still time left.

Stop wasting it trying to argue with me.

Your conscience tells you what I'm saying is true.

So, just stop suppressing the truth.

Your whole life is a lie, and you know it.

So, stop running.

Turn yourself in and find mercy.

@Wonka
Welcome back.

It is through thinking and logic that one attains the truth.
The philosophies that many of us on the forum follow are based on these concepts, our lives are defined by finding the truth.

So what method is the best?
Social manipulation and holding ancient and man-made texts as the ultimate truth?
Or figuring out the universe rationally, with a tool such as science?

You may find solace in unproven words and unobserved miracles, but that does not mean that others will find solace therein.

So please, is it possible that you can lessen the preaching? Engage in the more social aspects of the forum and participate in discussions that do not hold a direct link to religious debate. Through such a mode of interaction, you will hold more reverence on the forum, and people will be more inclined to meet you half way on certain topics.

I do not wish to attack your principles, I rather wish to suggest an altered way of communication.

 

[The Void]

1) If human by nature supresses truth and God is truth then human is supposed to by nature be atheist. But majority is theist according to statistics. (though is increasing may be?).
(PS: I am no one. I am in no side.)
"Man knows that God exists and sustains." -You think everyone feels like you deep down inside?

I can also say man truly by nature can not endure truth. They wanted to make some meaning and purpose behind apparent order. They wants to depend on a figure and Thus God?

I can also say it is natural selection. Man with meaning works better?

I can also say it may be illuminati's conditionings to make man have faith in God for control.

You think your God is true, other's God is false but so does everyone (almost).

Prove that you are true.

God has given the power of faith?
Or evolution?
Or illuminati?
Or we ourselves?
Or unicorn?

2) Okay so I am assuming for the moment that your God is true. Then next what? Why is God here? Why do God and what he created exists even? God is an uncaused beginningless existence right? And uncaused means no purpose.... So we are all created to serve a being who himself is purposeless? Why? Why no just nothing exist? God himself exists by luck, by chance? Or is there a God's God? Why not God's God?
If an entity like God can exist by chance, then so can our mundane world? Isn't it.

But still say even if purposeless (or like you theists say to artificially hide the gap: We are not meant to know the purpose. It is just like saying we are not meant to know if I can chew my teeth with the same teeth or not? Just like drawing a squaretraingle is impossible, having a purpose is impossible too.

You may create an ultimate creator or cause, but ultimate imples that it itselfs uncreated and uncaused and what is uncreated or uncaused is purposeless.

Ultimate purpose is ultimate i.e behind every purpose thus it itself is purposeless.

So why serve and follow a purposeless God in a purposeless existence?

3) Okay forget all that. Say there is a good God who brings all meaning, purpose love and light. And then now what? Why is your God the real God? Why is your bible the right one.
AND I WANT EVERY ANSWERS OF EVERY QUESTIONS BECAUSE I AM SICK OF DELUSIONS!!!
NO SKIPPING! IF YOU FAIL TO ANSWER ONE OR ASNWER SOMETHING LIKE: WE ARE NOT MEANT TO KNOW, THEN IT JUST MEANS YOU KNOW NOTHING EXACTLY!

4) Not everyone is same. EVeryone is conditioned differently and different beliefs and faith.
Your faith in 'your' Gods proves nothing.
a) You have faith in God.
b) the ability to have faith on God without any evidence can only be God gift.
c) so I have faith in God.
Thats circular reasoning.
Thats not even circular reasoning, a joke, a parody.

I had faith and faith is what leaded me to doubt and doubt leaded me to lots of different world.

5) Yes humans by nature can endure uncertainty, supresses truth and make up stories. Just like you.

6) You want real understanding? Christ is a mode of consciousness, enlightenment.
The path to heaven (truth \God\life) is the through christ or christ consciousness and when you attain christ consciousness you become like christ and christ is God, and you become God, all is God.

Cause and effect are interconnected. Effect is always a form of cause.

Ice + heat = water....forms are changing only. Same thing.

Artist's body + thoughts + materials = thoughts expressed in materials as art.

IF God was there when there was nothing and only God was there then....

God is still here everywhere.

Creation = created.

Since there was nothing other than God and God is infinity, we are infinity, we are actually God itself expressing in different forms.


God is love and true love needs no purpose or reason.
God itself is life.
Following God\jesus means to 'live' and most of the humans are living lives of zombie. Mindless and stuck in future, past, heaven , hell, work, stress.

Wake up, and live.

Life is God.

You take bible literally?

It is all metaphors.



7) I can make up thousands of stories, you see. But they are still stories.
Neither do I know nor do you. Those are just terms, who knew how they used it.
If you make claims that 'YOU KNOW' then back them up without using scripture quotes!

Loobaloba wrote a book called koko and wrote in it :'I am an unicorn and it is true'
Poopaopoop asked Loobaloba to prove that what is written in Koko is true.
Loobaloba says it is written in Koko so it must be true.

8) Yes I know what you think. I am weak, foolish ignorant and I cant surrender to God.
I can't accept him as my master. I am selfish, I myself wanna be God, I cant accept the fact that God is there stronger wiser than everyone, making universes in a blink, and I am arrogant ignorant and not submitting to him.

Yes I submitted to God near about a decade ago.
And this is where he leaded me. Happy? All workings of the divine will.

But give me each and every answer. One by one or something will happen.
Something always happen.

 

[wonkavision]

@Wonka
Welcome back.

It is through thinking and logic that one attains the truth.
The philosophies that many of us on the forum follow are based on these concepts, our lives are defined by finding the truth.

So what method is the best?
Social manipulation and holding ancient and man-made texts as the ultimate truth?
Or figuring out the universe rationally, with a tool such as science?

You may find solace in unproven words and unobserved miracles, but that does not mean that others will find solace therein.

So please, is it possible that you can lessen the preaching? Engage in the more social aspects of the forum and participate in discussions that do not hold a direct link to religious debate. Through such a mode of interaction, you will hold more reverence on the forum, and people will be more inclined to meet you half way on certain topics.

I do not wish to attack your principles, I rather wish to suggest an altered way of communication.

Look, maybe you don't actually read my posts. I'm not saying you have to read them. But if you do actually read them, it should be obvious I'm not trying to win anyone's approval.

I'm only interested in transmitting the truth.

And one thing I'm telling you is that putting Ultimate Truth under the limited microscope of human reasoning is a surefire way to damn yourself to hell.

I'm not trying to convince you through clever argumentation. I'm telling you dogmatically that if God does not give you faith in his Son, Jesus Christ, you will burn in eternal hellfire. And that punishment will be absolutely just.

And you will NEVER come to faith in Christ without hearing the WORDS of Christ.
So, what stands between you and hell right now is a messenger. One who will point you to Christ, dogmatically.

I know you don't understand that. To you, right now, I'm just a person giving out his own opinion.

But I'm a person who knows the truth, and you don't.

And if you remain in darkness, you're eternally damned.


Once again, if you don't listen, I lose absolutely nothing.

But you will lose absolutely EVERYTHING.

You've been warned.

Come to Christ, the only Savior of Sinners.

 

[redbaron]

Jenny, there's still time left.

Stop wasting it trying to argue with me.

Your conscience tells you what I'm saying is true.

So, just stop suppressing the truth.

Your whole life is a lie, and you know it.

So, stop running.

Turn yourself in and find mercy.

Projecting is fun! \/

 

[TBerg]

Why do people think Bible quotes and simple declarations suffice for rational argumentation?

 

[wonkavision]

1) If human by nature supresses truth and God is truth then human is supposed to by nature be atheist. But majority is theist according to statistics. (though is increasing may be?).
(PS: I am no one. I am in no side.)
"...........

If you were asking sincere questions, I would take the time to answer them.

I'm concerned about those who will listen, not those who are just playing games.

For now, I'll just tell you that the answers are all found in the Bible.

All that God revealed in the Bible is for us to know. And whatever he left out, he does not intend for us to know.

Plain and simple.

If you ever get serious about wanting to know more about Christ, I will gladly take the time to tell you.

But not until then.

I only have so much time to spare.

Surely, you understand that, don't you?

 

[wonkavision]

Why do people think Bible quotes and simple declarations suffice for rational argumentation?

The declaration of Almighty God has power to save sinners.

Clever argumentation does not.

1 Corinthians 1:21-24,

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

I dare you to actually read the quotes, and face Ultimate Truth. I promise you'll feel a well-needed pang in your conscience.

 

[TBerg]

The declaration of Almighty God has power to save sinners.

Clever argumentation does not.

I dare you to actually read the quotes, and face Ultimate Truth. I promise you'll feel a well-needed pang in your conscience.

I read the Bible often.

It only fulfills us because we are afraid of death and unknowable things. We thereby have a bias towards ideas that seem to fill that void, but that void, that rock-bottom understanding of uncertainty, will never cease to encroach upon our faithful will, our Will to Make Things Make Sense. We all worship different gods in different ways depending upon the time and place we occupy, anyway, meaning that we are all always worshiping wrongly. The Calvinists are honest about Total Depravity. Why aren't you? Why don't you understand your hubris in thinking that you have access to The Truth?

 

[wonkavision]

The Calvinists are honest about Total Depravity. Why aren't you? Why don't you understand your hubris in thinking that you have access to The Truth?

Well, you're right that I'm not a Calvinist. But I share their belief in Total Depravity.

In what way have I been dishonest about that doctrine?

If you mean by omission, then, yes, maybe I should add that in.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

I think you yourself would be too afraid to take the pill or become an artificial intelligent construct only to surpass your ideas of godhood and your capabilities of a human being.

You have no proper evidence, you make a claim that this pill will surely bring the only possible truth that occurs to you, that is, the existence of the Holy Trinity corp.

What it would be like to open your perception to the possibility that you are free to conjure your god and free to believe in what you like and find right?

Would you be frightened by the possibility that you will find out your information different and your preference shifted?

Of cource not. You will not begin doubting or questioning based on a few posts made by a stranger and yet you expect to make these strangers react to your ideas in a way that you will never allow to sway you.

Quite amusing and peacefully noble, this struggle, if it is for real and not your internet persona. I don't know how dilligent and faithful you are in real life.

 

[Rook]

Why do people think Bible quotes and simple declarations suffice for rational argumentation?

It is simple. The christian has his whole life followed the path of god. He is indoctronated to believe that every word of the bible is true, from the mouth of god himself.

So when he comes to stand against one that challenges his belief with logic and well thought out arguments, what truth does he possess? Why, the bible!

He does not see the irrationality of the arguments posed, no, they are the utter truth for they are the word of god.

That is way people think the bible is viable for rational argumentation: for the same reason they blindly believe in god.
Their faculties of reason are stunted, their brains re-wired.
They are programmed to blindly stumble onwards, holding a candle in a hurricane.

 

[wonkavision]

It is simple. The christian has his whole life followed the path of god. He is indoctronated to believe that every word of the bible is true, from the mouth of god himself.

So when he comes to stand against one that challenges his belief with logic and well thought out arguments, what truth does he possess? Why, the bible!

He does not see the irrationality of the arguments posed, no, they are the utter truth for they are the word of god.

That is way people think the bible is viable for rational argumentation: for the same reason they blindly believe in god.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but are you implying that all Christians were indoctrinated from birth?

That is simply not true. And I doubt that you meant that.

But it sounds like that's what you're saying.

 

[TBerg]

If there is Total Depravity, then one cannot take the pill, because one cannot have unbiased access to Truth or Goodness in such a case. The pill would be a fiction, in such a case.

 

[wonkavision]

Of cource not. You will not begin doubting or questioning based on a few posts made by a stranger and yet you expect to make these strangers react to your ideas in a way that you will never allow to sway you.

Well, maybe you didn't actually read the OP, but I made it abundantly clear that I don't expect anyone to believe on Christ without God-given faith.

I'm just pointing you to Christ. God himself must convert you.

Perhaps you should read the OP before making comments.

 

[wonkavision]

If there is Total Depravity, then one cannot take the pill, because one cannot have unbiased access to Truth or Goodness in such a case. The pill would be a fiction, in such a case.

Well, if you actually read the passages I quoted, you will find the explanation.

Again, this is just willful ignorance.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

How do you disprove the fact that there are other holy texts, sometimes more ancient, such as Ramayana or Quran and their merit?

Why did god ignore all the people living in the far east and sent his son to enlighten and save the mediterranean areas? The rest didn't even care that someone dies for their sins and didn't believe this version as they had no previous chance to know.

 

[wonkavision]

How do you disprove the fact that there are other holy texts, sometimes more ancient, such as Ramayana or Quran and their merit?

Why did god ignore all the people living in the far east and sent his son to enlighten and save the mediterranean areas? The rest didn't even care that someone dies for their sins and didn't believe this version as they had no previous chance to know.

There are other supposed "Holy" texts. But they are false. It's that simple. And I don't need to prove that, God himself will, in due time.

And as to your second question, God saves whom he will and passes by whom he will. He's not obligated to save anyone at all.

He could justly cast the whole human race into hell, but he graciously saves some by the blood of Christ.

The question you should be asking is"How can one be saved"?

The answer is by the blood of Jesus Christ.

By the atoning sacrifice of Christ, and by faith in Christ himself.

That is the "pill" you need to swallow.

If you don't, you'll go to hell. I'm telling you the truth.

You'll have the proof when you die. But not until then.

 

[wonkavision]

The fact is, you're all brainwashed by Humanism, Postmodernism, Freud, Marx, and a host of other brainwashed men, to think that the center of existence is Man.

I was there too, at one time. But God opened my eyes to the truth.

And it wasn't by argumentation or the kindness of a stranger that my eyes were opened to the truth.

It was through the dogmatic declaration of what God says in his Word, and the Spirit of God causing me to believe it.

And that's the only way anybody will ever be saved: by the grace of God, through the merits of Christ, and under the preaching of his Word.

If you don't like that, and won't submit to that, then your eternal damnation is just.


Will you take the "pill" or not?

Will you turn yourself in, and receive MERCY, through the blood of Jesus Christ?


Please read these words, If you care at all about your soul:

In John 6:37-39, Jesus said:

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

 

[Rook]

@Wonka:
The following scenario is set:
A man lives in a tribe deep in the amazon. Throughout his whole life he has met no outsiders. His religion is a primitive form of ancestor worship.

As missionaries or other outsiders never reach his tribe, he does not hear about christianity. By your reasoning, god has chosen not to bless him with christianity("And as to your second question, God saves whom he will and passes by whom he will.").

So this man, this tribesman, will be cast into the fires of hell simply because god has willed it.

Is this the hallmark of an all-loving god, or a puppeteer stringing us along for his own amusement?

As you state that god saves whom he wills and passes by whom he wills, why then try to convert us? Is the outcome not already predetermined by god, has he not at our very births chosen our fate?

Or is there rather a flaw in your reasoning?

 

[Rook]

Alas, many of my stated questions are left unanswered. The OP merely answers one of them with unproven statements on the human psyche.

Eluded me, you have.

 

[Hawkeye]

Someone once revealed the secret of a great magic trick to me.

Whilst I gained knowledge of how the trick worked, I simultaneously lost the effect of magic it held on me...

However, I now have the ability to provide magic to others. I get to see the reaction I once had and I look at them with envy.

 

[wonkavision]

Alas, many of my stated questions are left unanswered. The OP merely answers one of them with unproven statements on the human psyche.

Eluded me, you have.

Wait, hold on a sec.....

I still wish you would read the actual OP.

But here you go....

@Wonka:
The following scenario is set:
A man lives in a tribe deep in the amazon. Throughout his whole life he has met no outsiders. His religion is a primitive form of ancestor worship.

As missionaries or other outsiders never reach his tribe, he does not hear about christianity. By your reasoning, god has chosen not to bless him with christianity("And as to your second question, God saves whom he will and passes by whom he will.").

Yes, that means God has not ELECTED to save that man.

So this man, this tribesman, will be cast into the fires of hell simply because god has willed it.

No, not only because God wills it, but ALSO because it's JUST. That man is a sinful rebel like all men are by nature.
And God is HOLY, and MUST punish sin.

Is this the hallmark of an all-loving god, or a puppeteer stringing us along for his own amusement?

God does not love all men.

God only loves those who are RIGHTEOUS.

And the only ones who are righteous are Christ himself, and those who have his righteousness imputed (accounted/charged) to them, through his substitutionary, atoning death on the cross.

As you state that god saves whom he wills and passes by whom he wills, why then try to convert us? Is the outcome not already predetermined by god, has he not at our very births chosen our fate?

Yes, it is all predetermined from eternity whom God will and will not save.

But God does not tell US who they are. He tells us to send the message out to all men everywhere.


Look man, I don't just sit at my computer all day.

I have to use my time wisely.

Don't expect me to spend all my time answering your questions. Actually read what I post, and try to understand it, or stop asking questions, please.

 

[redbaron]

So then since everything is god's will, why would he will the existence of tribesmen who are predestined to go to hell?

God, you so silly!

~

Congregation, please be seated and open your prayer guides to the book of revelations, Psalm sixty nine.

Drinking the blood of Jesus
Drinking it right from his veins
Learning to swim in the ocean
Learning to prowl in his name

The body of Christ looked unto me
A preacher with cock in his hand
He wants you to suck off the Holy Ghost
And swallow the sins of man

The invisible piss of the Holy Ghost
Comes down like acid rain
They're making a bonnet of terminal guilt
The scavengers go on parade

The fathers who write that eternity
Is used to fight the sword
Have filled you up with the devil's cock
And he'll come in the name of the lord

 

[Rook]

"Yes, that means God has not ELECTED to save that man."

Why? Is man not created in god's image, is man not meant to have a choice between serving god and denouncing him? Here is this man, made by god, but damned by him from the very beginning. Does not fit into christianity's message of salvation.


"No, not only because God wills it, but ALSO because it's JUST. That man is a sinful rebel like all men are by nature.
And God is HOLY, and MUST punish sin."

How can this man be a rebel? Throughout his life his family and his tribe has enforced their religion upon him. No one came by to introduce them to god. How then has he sinned? It is circumstances that had led him to the life he has know, he had no control over it.

"God does not love all men."

Yet Jesus attones that all men are god's children and can be saved. You state that this is not so. God has decided long before their existence wether they are saved or not. Contradiction upon contradiction!

"God only loves those who are RIGHTEOUS."

Righteousness then seems to be completely out of the hands of men. As god chooses who is saved, he must also choose who is righteous. So he has created a species to praise and worship him, but in the end they seem to have no free will over their lives and actions. All is pre-determined. Why then the need for worship, if god already knows the outcome?

"And the only ones who are righteous are Christ himself, and those who have his righteousness imputed (accounted/charged) to them, through his substitutionary, atoning death on the cross.

Yes, it is all predetermined from eternity whom God will and will not save."

Why would god create such a system? If all is predetermined, and if he is benevolent, would he not let everyone be saved, let everyone believe in him? Why would he damn those that he can save? Makes no sense, unless he is experimenting with us out of boredom or out of malice.

"But God does not tell US who they are. He tells us to send the message out to all men everywhere."

Yet the amazonian has not heard from one of these men, and is damned to hell. God has then pre-determined that none of his followers are to reach this man, his glorious message is never to befall his ears. That is needless cruelty.

 

[wonkavision]

"Yes, that means God has not ELECTED to save that man."

Why? Is man not created in god's image, is man not meant to have a choice between serving god and denouncing him? Here is this man, made by god, but damned by him from the very beginning. Does not fit into christianity's message of salvation.

Man was ORIGNALLY created in the image of God. But man FELL and the image was RUINED.
Since the fall, Adam's posterity has inherited this RUINED nature.

"No, not only because God wills it, but ALSO because it's JUST. That man is a sinful rebel like all men are by nature.
And God is HOLY, and MUST punish sin."

How can this man be a rebel? Throughout his life his family and his tribe has enforced their religion upon him. No one came by to introduce them to god. How then has he sinned? It is circumstances that had led him to the life he has know, he had no control over it.

If you had read my OP, you would see that the Bible says all men are sinners by NATURE. Ever since the fall of Adam, they inherited his sinful NATURE.

And if you had read the OP, you would have read that all men know that the Creator is worthy of worship, but men prefer to worship the creation instead. That's their rebellion against God.

"God does not love all men."

Yet Jesus attones that all men are god's children and can be saved. You state that this is not so. God has decided long before their existence wether they are saved or not. Contradiction upon contradiction!

There is no contradiction. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God loves all men. And nowhere does it say all men are his children.

It says that God's children are those who are born from above, those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
They are children, not by nature, but by ADOPTION.

It says that God loves the righteous and hates the wicked.

There's no contradiction, you just don't know what the Bible says.

"God only loves those who are RIGHTEOUS."

Righteousness then seems to be completely out of the hands of men. As god chooses who is saved, he must also choose who is righteous. So he has created a species to praise and worship him, but in the end they seem to have no free will over their lives and actions. All is pre-determined. Why then the need for worship, if god already knows the outcome?

"And the only ones who are righteous are Christ himself, and those who have his righteousness imputed (accounted/charged) to them, through his substitutionary, atoning death on the cross.

Yes, it is all predetermined from eternity whom God will and will not save."

Why would god create such a system? If all is predetermined, and if he is benevolent, would he not let everyone be saved, let everyone believe in him? Why would he damn those that he can save? Makes no sense, unless he is experimenting with us out of boredom or out of malice.

"But God does not tell US who they are. He tells us to send the message out to all men everywhere."

Yet the amazonian has not heard from one of these men, and is damned to hell. God has then pre-determined that none of his followers are to reach this man, his glorious message is never to befall his ears. That is needless cruelty.

Well, good. You're starting to understand.

It IS all out of man's hands. It IS up to God whom he will and will not save.

And it's ALSO up to God HOW people are saved:
And that's through the blood and righteousness of Christ.

Now come to Christ for MERCY, and I guarantee he will save you.

But if you DO NOT come to Christ, I guarantee he will not.


And by the way, in regard to God reaching the world, the Bible says that there will be believers from every tribe, and nation and tongue.

Revelation 5:9,

And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

 

[TBerg]

Well, if you actually read the passages I quoted, you will find the explanation.

Again, this is just willful ignorance.

I can have hallucinations telling me to tell others not to think, too. Just like Saul of Tarsus, haunted by the victims of his bloodlust.

 

[Cavallier]

Ack! It just won't stop. This is not a good place for your pulpit Wonka.