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Pros/Cons of Programming for an INTP

Architect

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When it comes to a degree, I really don't see a use for it especially in programming field. A reason a lot of people I think go back is to fill some kind of societal void, especially experienced programmers or they think they will make more money.

"Programming" is a shorthand for "engineering", and I've met very few engineers without a degree (maybe one or two). The closest you can get is by having a related technical degree (math, science) like I do. I never see job reqs with "no degree necessary" written on them.
 

Analyzer

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"Programming" is a shorthand for "engineering", and I've met very few engineers without a degree (maybe one or two). The closest you can get is by having a related technical degree (math, science) like I do. I never see job reqs with "no degree necessary" written on them.

Sure, but programming compared with other engineering fields has a easier barrier of entry since nowadays you can produce working code and gain experience without actually having a job. I have never seen those requirements as well but have seen "degree or relevant experience". A lot of the bigger companies have red-tape or HR departments that require some form of degree so they can eliminate applicants or because the hiring manger doesn't have the technical knowledge to judge the applicants ability. They want some kind of credential to prove they have the skills.

It's also a matter of personal choice of the working environment. Many small to medium size businesses want someone with the skills or experience, since most of the time hiring is done by someone who understands the requirements. Whats better someone who is self taught and truly enjoys what he does or someone who gets a degree to climb the corporate ladder for the image or financial security? Small business seem to be the future as well, at least for innovation.
 

h0bby1

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sometime there are some that allow self taught people, but also when hiring people beyond 30, experience and project realized can become more important than the degree, because school teaching can become obsolete pretty quick, but need to be convincing and have some experience, but i've seen many time people who hire even in good company without caring about diploma, specially in start up or medium sized companies

but it's clear having a diploma open many door much more easily, specially in corporate environment and big companies, i had a friend who was hired in IBM, he told me he was simply frozen, like he didn't had anything to do, but still having good salary, because some company have a brain monopoly kind of policy, and hire all engineer out of school, even if they have nothing to do =) it's clear it's way easier to get some good paying job even with middle skill with a diploma, in another company also they hired the 5 best of a promotion, and they were mostly doing hosting stuff, but as they had good contact, good ceo manager, they were having lot of good contract for easy things , it's way easier to get into those ring when in good school, cause lot of recruiter go there to get people and find the brains

generally i'm hired with test period, and it take more time to get really well integrated than if you have a good degree, but if you are convincing, have experience, motivation, and prove efficient in the team, it can still work out

if you can talk a bit math, crypto or some hype stuff like that, or some good looking advanced jargon of tech stuff , it always give good impression as well, but need to be rigorous, and know well all vocabulary and tech and being up to date with latest tech thing, with people who have diploma, it can be much easier

there are many job offer where they mention they want geek profile, who are passionate, and do what they do because they like it, and are dynamic, and like to dig into thing and keep up to date by themselves, it can have also many advantage over engineer who will need to have paid formation each time, and will sit on their degree, and will be more reluctant to do more than strictly required with how much they are paid

but yeah, need to have solid background in math, physics, not being scared to read heavy book, and getting in depth into cutting edge tech stuff
 

h0bby1

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it's a northern europe website, but if you look job offers, there are many that are not too big on degree and diplomas, even for good positions

http://www.arcticstartup.com/jobs

in the startup section ( http://www.arcticstartup.com/companies ), there are many who are also hiring even if they didn't post a job on the site, and large part of them mention required skill, experience, and what task they expect you to realize, more than degree
 

h0bby1

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http://www.careerigniter.com/career-advice/what-generation-y-needs-to-know-about-getting-a-job/ =)

after i'm not bill gates either, i don't know how it works everywhere, but more and more i hear that diploma aren't as important as they used to be, probably it's because of globalization, and internet is specially exposed to it, schools are not always up to date with everything going on in companies, as well before there were big pole of development, like silicon valley, or other, and school could align on some big pole to make up their program for what is needed easily, but nowdays as everything evolve fast in every domain, it's not as much uni polar like it used to be, technologies evolve all the time, and real world experience into projects tend to get as much valued than diploma if not more

last time i was speaking with a guy, he had really impressive CV, he was from some good aeronautic related programming school, something related to image analysis and filtering, if not a phd not far from it, he worked for some good companies in stage while at school, like boeng or something, his cv was impressive, he told me he couldn't quite find a job , i was very surprised, but he was looking for something for month and didn't find anything, maybe it's too specific, or not real world experience that is directly usable in a project, but it seem to happen this way more and more
 

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My friend completed a degree with highest qualifications at Imperial College London. He is CS major. He said that there is nothing you cannot learn from the Internet. Go figure.
 

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Regarding the degree - that's fine folks, I'm seeing the same articles touting now how you don't need a degree. And that's true, you don't have to have a degree, but you probably want a degree. I'm here to encourage you to take business opportunities as they arise, but also get the sheepskin when you're young.

These articles are just a long overdue backlash to the Baby Boomer over interest in college. Boomers are obsessed with college and we had to endure decades of articles saying so. Well now we're learning that going into debt to get a degree in International Relations isn't better than just starting your life.

You want the best jobs and be able to solve the hardest problems in engineering? Get the degree.
 

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You want the best jobs and be able to solve the hardest problems in engineering? Get the degree.

I'm going to have to agree with Architect on this one. Sure you don't need a degree to be a programmer. But it really depends on where you want to work and what you want to do. As an INTP, we are great at seeing the bigger picture and you've got to see the bigger picture on this regarding your career.

College debt is a huge burden, I did everything possible not to go into it. I know companies that hire without a degree, but you're putting yourself at huge risk in the long-term of a real Software Engineering career. Generally, these companies don't do that big of projects and the work is more 'monkey-like'.

I have a buddy who HATES college, sees it as totally worthless for programming. He has a job right now that he loves and he makes good money. The guy preaches agile development like no other and thinks planning is an abomination. But you know what? He's never actually seen a very, very, very fucking large software design. He does smaller projects. I worked at a Fortune 500 last summer and I worked with software that dealt with at least a thousand classes. I love agile, but it truly is not the best way to go on everything.

Now I'm not saying you can't learn that stuff but I guarantee no one is going to even look at you without a degree if you want to work on that type of stuff. But again, it's what you want to do, where you want to work, and how you are going to use college to get to where you want to be. If you are going to go to college and make absolutely zero connections and not talk to anyone, then it's probably going to be a waste.

On a side note, I have a family member who has been programming his whole life. Makes very good money, has a family, does not have a degree. You know what he tells me every time I see him? - "I wish I got the degree".
 

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Lucky me, Scottish government will pay fees for me lol. I will get out without debt. Thus it will be worth it to go to university I guess... I somehow think that being among other programmers will be great learning opportunity. :}
 

h0bby1

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agile is best suited for little team, over 10-20 people, agile is not very efficient =) agile are typically good for team of 5-10 people

in the same time, i wonder how many engineer are able to solve a differential equation 5 year after being out of school =)

degree can be security for long term career planning, but the one i know who are really good are the one who were already programming before getting into school, and were also doing project outside of school, staying strictly confined to the minimum to get the diploma is not always that great either

after it's also matter of affinity and all, but i tend to find corporate job more 'monkey like' than little company, with big frameworks, and services, who work on huge framework that require 2 month of brainstorming to change 2 lines in it, it's not always very dynamic either, and lot of constraint regarding framework, and the different service the code has to go through , it's often very slow process =) but yeah if you get a good position into that kind of company it's good monney and stable jobs, and it will be very hard to get those position without a degree, unless you really are into the biz for long time, have good contact and dependable references

some while ago, i wanted get some advise about fourrier analysis stuff, to know how to get the power of a signal based on it's frequency, thing that didn't seem that much uncommon kind of thing, i asked several people who signal processing engineering degree, none of them could give a positive answer =) one of them was 3 year into his cursus, and then i showed him what the code looked like, he looked like he never a real life software that used actual practical fourrier tranform in real time, then he asked me for some kind of project they had to do at school , it seemed rather trivial thing, he was like anyway i'll do it as fast as i can, i don't really care, i hope the teacher won't mind, i was like hmm kay lol

there are many who are also on a do the least possible to get the degree, and never put the nose in anything that is not taught at school ever, i wonder how competitive they can be in real world environment , and it's always possible to have jobs even in big structure, even if it's often difficult without degree, i know some guy who don't have degree and work in banking sector or in big companies as well, and they get equivalence diploma that you can get after some years of experience in the field

i tend to prefer little company environment anyway, the project are in B2C fashion, they are often more varied and more dynamic things , not like you work in the same framework with the whole lot of services hierarchy for 30 years =) but yeah those kind of job tend to be traditionally more rewarding and more stable in general, start up often come and goes, you can't expect more than 5 year long life span for most start up, they generally make up some kind of project, create a structure for it, and rarely last for more than a few years, so need to be able to adapt as well
 

Architect

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in the same time, i wonder how many engineer are able to solve a differential equation 5 year after being out of school =)

Not many, but that's not the point of school. Can you be an architect or composer without first knowing what has gone before? If you're working in the sciences you have to know the 'canon'
 

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What about embedded systems programming? Is that on the same level of standard software engineering or more in line with electrical engineering. Like someone who programs robots, firmware, devices on cars, planes, ect...is that more of an embedded systems engineer? I have always been confused between this distinction and application/systems programming.
 

walfin

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Architect said:
"Programming" is a shorthand for "engineering", and I've met very few engineers without a degree (maybe one or two).

I agree very much with this. That, and the degree is not difficult to obtain, with a minimal amount of studying if you were self-taught beforehand.

What about embedded systems programming? Is that on the same level of standard software engineering or more in line with electrical engineering. Like someone who programs robots, firmware, devices on cars, planes, ect...is that more of an embedded systems engineer? I have always been confused between this distinction and application/systems programming.

Mmmm...style is a bit different, lots of inline assembly, lots of bitwise stuff, and lots of char *motor=(char*)0xDEADBEEF; *motor=... etc. etc.

Much of your time will be spent figuring out how to encode binary messages (and converting the numbers into hex). I don't think it's very much more like electrical engineering though; anything analog becomes digital when a microprocessor is involved so you won't be doing stuff like electrical engineers do with analog signals.

Although I don't know much, the only embedded device I programmed before was a bill validator.
 

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What about embedded systems programming? Is that on the same level of standard software engineering or more in line with electrical engineering. Like someone who programs robots, firmware, devices on cars, planes, ect...is that more of an embedded systems engineer? I have always been confused between this distinction and application/systems programming.

All depends on the job exactly. Most of the time you're writing C or programming FPGAs. Oftentimes these jobs are done by EE's with just enough of software knowledge.
 

h0bby1

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What about embedded systems programming? Is that on the same level of standard software engineering or more in line with electrical engineering. Like someone who programs robots, firmware, devices on cars, planes, ect...is that more of an embedded systems engineer? I have always been confused between this distinction and application/systems programming.

i watched bit of digital electronics with DSP's, it can be pretty cool =) but as generally memory will be much more limited, the system part will be thinner, if any system is even present, and need to work more at a level is in direct use of DMA/IRQ's , or IO stuff, ADC/DAC, but on a pure electronic point of view, digital electronic is rather simple, much simpler than analog electronic, if you take component from a single brand, you don't have much to bother about voltages, tension, and most electric laws, more how to connect dsp with memory devices, with input ports, with interrupt signals and all

application/system, it can be linked with OSI model, and protected memory architecture, back in the day basically before the mid 90's with the rise of windows and linux, the distinction was not that high, as under DOS or amiga/c64, programmer often had to program half of what can be seen as a drivers, if you look at the latest game of the DOS era, when graphic accelerators started to come in, programmer often had to develop their own sound and graphic drivers into the game, or least part of it, because dos was very limited

now there is a clear distinction between system and application because of protected mode, because there are area of memory that are shared with device, and only managed by the OS, so there is an hardware distrinction of system and application memory area, executed in different mode of the cpu, it's made to avoid that an application can mess up with the memory area owned by the system, to provide better stability and security to the system, but there is not clearly defined limit between what is supposed to be part of system or application software in the absolute, it's mostly arbitrarily defined

even system you can make difference between the kernel, and system libraries, any code that is to be used by several applications should be part of system, as like this one application cannot mess with some shared segment of code or memory, but it's a bit loosely defined in the absolute

the need for a clear seperation between system and application mostly come from extensive multi tasking, and the way pci bus work to have shared memory zone and asynchronous multi processor architecture that has to be shared between different application, if not for this, on a mono task mono user kind of system, there is not that much strong need for this seperation between application and system, embeded system are most often mono task and mono user kind of stuff, so there is not that much a dramatic need for separation between system and application code level
 

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My observation is that programmers, who are teaching computers to do everybody else's job, are bad at doing software to replace themselves. Plus we always have to be at the forefront.

But they're constantly replacing their earlier selves. Programmers have an instinctive objection to any form of repetition. Whenever you build something, that particular form of thing never needs to be built again... maybe something quite similar, but never exactly the same. Because what you're actually building are not end results but the processes for achieving them, processes that can be infinitely employed at zero cost in human effort. Practically you may not always be able to live up to this ideal, but fundamentally, being a programmer means that all of the work you do is some form of improvement or invention. Can that be said about any other profession? When it's your daily job, I think it's easy to forget how incredible this is.

One of the most satisfying activities for me as a programmer is destroying earlier work and replacing it with something better -- something more efficient, or more flexible, or making better use of existing modules, whatever. The moment of realizing "I don't need this anymore" is honestly pure joy... realizing, in other words, that the job I did a few months ago is now obsolete. Again, not something you can experience very often in other professions.
 

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When I first came into contact with MBTI I judged myself an INTP. Then for a while I doubted that and labeled myself as INXP, which turned out to be nonsense as I got deeper into the subject and started working with the cognitive functions that make up the type, and I realised was actually an INFP. Oops. atleast I got the 2nd and 3rd functions right.

I have an electrical engineering / embedded systems degree. At the time I felt that learning about how computers work was more interesting then learning what to do with them, but had no real convincing arguments and no one asked. Back then I felt obligated to go to a university as that is wat is expected, I didn't even protest but truth is I couldn't imagine what I'd do with the degree once I had it. I also couldn't imagine making a living with anything non technical. I dragged myself through that period, not even realising I was propably depressed as the world in my mind was totally disconnected with reality. Once I had my bachelor's, I decided to continue for my master's, mostly to postpone the inevitable and subscribing to courses that interested me without any drive left to finish things up. Then I quit.

After a period of switching between jobs I got into software development. At first I was intimidated; I'm not a model thinker so I don't apply patterns as well as some and I'm poor on details and routine work. I'm terrible with schedules, discipline and managing interruptions. My strength however is empathising with the user and their situation and what they are trying to accomplish with the software that I'm making.'Doing the right thing right, which is basically my Fi and Te at play. I'm currently a support engineer for a small company, which means I have my software development projects (usually seeing whats possible instead of actually building the thing to it's final form) and I don't get repremanded when I don't make my deadlines as I hide behind interruptions from support tasks, which is putting out fires, deescalating, puzzling and in the meantime get to see the user at work (which grows my empathy for the user and ability to simulate them in my head).

I'm sure you are wondering what this has to do with pros and cons for INTP's. well, I think there is a sort of resemblance between the two types and perhaps it's interesting to get my viewpoint. I have an enormous respect for INTPs. Whenever I pair up with an INTP (and that just somehow happens) stuff happens. We like to dream things up and play with it.

I feel software development is a lot of fun because there are so many good communities out there to interact with. It is a young field, and most of its pioneers are still alive. In most fields people fantasise about what their old heroes would have to say, and you're either a follewer of this dead guy or of another dead guy. While in software, you could simply ask them if it was important enough, and they might make up their minds later on.

We like to be alone, but we can easily reach out and get to talk with people if we want to. Take advantage of the fact that you want to be alone, resist working in a group of annoying people, it's a drain not a source of inspiration. Only show your face when you want to.

Right now agile is totally hip and it's hip to make small apps that do one thing very well. I'm sure we will see old techniques get dusted off and refitted for a new cycle of hip software development paradigm. It's an endless debate with no definitive answer. Enjoy it.

INTP's don't need an engineering degree. What people learn there is how to think and you've been doing that all your life anyways. Sure, you might get filtered out because you don't have a degree. Do you really want to work for someone who doesn't take the time to really consider something? What is a degree anyways? a set of courses combined with a social and professional network? can't that be substituted some other (cheaper) way? What they teach are usually outdated skills or theory so abstract that it's barely applied anywhere. and if it's applied, it's just bits and pieces of it instead of the entire model set up properly. And they rely heavily on your own passion to do extracurricular stuff.

Create a portfolio, list your achievements. Blog about it. Show your face from time to time and blow people's minds with what you got to say. We're effective that way.
 

Valentas

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I talked with many programmers and here are their observations:

Pros:
* They get paid to play with computers
* They emphasized the love of building a product from nothing
* Best business to get into. Low start-up costs compared to other disciplines
* You can reach millions instantly
* A lot said that they love solving problems. They love solutions coming to them in the shower.

Cons:
* Jobs become repetitive. Managers are bad and fail to deliver
* Annoying customers who don't know what they want
* Growing bureaucracy in SE lowers productivity.
* Almost all of them hate deadlines
* Very steep learning curve if you want to be good
* Some of them told that their families suffer due to the time they need to learn stuff to not become dinosaurs.

I agree with above author of the wall of text that bullshit with degrees should stop. Degree courses usually are outdated and employers often moan that graduates come to work without necessary skills and can't learn fast.

In my country, there are more and more companies where degree is not a requirement. There is simply a list of skills and experience needed and you are good to go. My friend called to such company and they said you can work here even if you graduated from high school. The important thing is that you must know your stuff and be ready learn.
 

Architect

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Pros:
* They get paid to play with computers
* They emphasized the love of building a product from nothing
* Best business to get into. Low start-up costs compared to other disciplines
* You can reach millions instantly
* A lot said that they love solving problems. They love solutions coming to them in the shower.

All true, plus many other advantages depending on the exact work you do.

Cons:
* Jobs become repetitive. Managers are bad and fail to deliver

Two different points. All jobs are repetitive to one degree or another. Programming jobs are generally least so because you are paid to innovate and create new features. Of course if you consider sitting at a computer every day and working repetition then you're out of luck, but if you consider having to learn something new to do something different then you're in luck.

On managers it depends, in my experience I've had good and bad, but they're all annoying for one reason or another.

* Annoying customers who don't know what they want

Damn customers! Why do they have to have the money? Anyhow I find it a challenge, particularly exciting when you can figure out what customers want before the customers even know what they want. That's where the money is (invent whole new vistas for the human race). It's called the "Post-It" effect. Who would have thought that a piece of paper with a poor glue on the back could be so useful?

* Growing bureaucracy in SE lowers productivity.

Sure, so find the groups that are nimble within the bureaucracy or go with a startup. This one is horrific though I agree.

* Almost all of them hate deadlines

lol ... yeah

* Very steep learning curve if you want to be good

That's the best part

* Some of them told that their families suffer due to the time they need to learn stuff to not become dinosaurs.

Yeah, but that's easy. Shoot your TV and give your family iPads. In my family we sit around with iPads during what would normally be considered "TV family night". We're still together, but I'm on a laptop learning about some new technology while they are off reading, watching NetFlix on headphones or whatever.
 

Architect

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INTP's don't need an engineering degree. ...

Create a portfolio, list your achievements. Blog about it. Show your face from time to time and blow people's minds with what you got to say. We're effective that way.

True enough, I don't have an engineering degree and have gotten quite far in the industry. While I agree that the lack of a degree, and an inability to get one shouldn't prevent an INTP from pursuing software work, I'd also recommend getting it if you are in a position to do so.
 

mu is mu

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Very true.

Distilling these ideas, which are applicable when looking at other careers

  • Logical creativity and challange
  • Autonomy and freedom
  • Continual change and newness

Dream job ...

Actually this is probably the best formulation of the recipe for INTP fulfillment in any walk, whether as a teenager, retirement, career, etc.

Wow, this sounds like gold to me.
 

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I've been reading this for a while now, and I have to admit I've always been interested in programming but I've never made a solid attempt to learn it (I think it was java).

I'm still in school, about 5 weeks away from final exams, but I was wondering if anyone could suggest a language to do first if I wanted to learn anything about programming?

Sent from my GT-I9210T using Tapatalk 4 Beta
 

Architect

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I've been reading this for a while now, and I have to admit I've always been interested in programming but I've never made a solid attempt to learn it (I think it was java).

I'm still in school, about 5 weeks away from final exams, but I was wondering if anyone could suggest a language to do first if I wanted to learn anything about programming?

It's funny that the first question anybody asks for getting into programming is which language. It doesn't really matter, but Java is a good choice.
 

Huggogguh

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It's funny that the first question anybody asks for getting into programming is which language. It doesn't really matter, but Java is a good choice.

Thanks for the reply. Well as an industry based on language and with so many languages existing it seemed like the first logical question to ask. Out of curiosity, what other questions would be expected?


Sent from my GT-I9210T using Tapatalk 4 Beta
 

Architect

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Thanks for the reply. Well as an industry based on language and with so many languages existing it seemed like the first logical question to ask. Out of curiosity, what other questions would be expected?

Typically the next question is "what first project should I do"? At which I say "what are you interested in? Music, drawing, social networking, graphics, games, AI, the environment ..."
 

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I'm seriously considering programming as another skill to add to my repertoir. Unfortunately, math is probably my worst subject. Is programming more about mathematical formulas or is it more of a language than actual math a la HTML?

Also, what, if any, are the easiest programming languages to learn that will not become obsolete (hopefully) within the next 10 years?
 

Architect

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I'm seriously considering programming as another skill to add to my repertoir. Unfortunately, math is probably my worst subject. Is programming more about mathematical formulas or is it more of a language than actual math a la HTML?

Also, what, if any, are the easiest programming languages to learn that will not become obsolete (hopefully) within the next 10 years?

Programming is about thought, architecture and idea rather than math most of the time. And programming languages rarely go obsolete, important systems are still running Fortran and Cobol
 

NullPointer

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I find programming to be a good fit for an INTP. As pernoctator mentioned, programming is about devising processes for doing things, rather than directly doing them. It's a layer of abstraction, and it plays into our intuitive strength.

As for software engineering having an easier barrier of entry, that's a product of the vaguely defined notion of a "software engineer". At the university I'm attending, we software engineers share the same first year as all the other branches of engineering, and the entry requirements are the same. After the first year, you continue to share many classes with the other engineering specialisations, and at the end of it, you're awarded with a BEng like everyone else. What sort of shared classes? Chemistry, Biology, Mechanics, Systems Engineering, Technical Communication, Chemical and Materials, Electrical Engineering, etc.

Compared with computer science, software engineering is usually less flexible, and with a bigger focus on the "engineer" mentality, but often with a reduced focus on pure maths. At my university, you're also required to get at least 800 hours of engineering work experience before you graduate, and at least 200 of those must be "general engineering" - I.E. not specifically software related. I know in a lot of other countries, both computer science and software engineering are offered as four year degrees, but computer science is a 3 year degree here, with a fluid structure, and lower entry requirements.

Actually, it's true that you could learn anything from the internet, but taking a formal course will give you feedback about how thoroughly you know something, both in terms of coverage, and depth of understanding. You're also given access to equipment, and databases of articles, that it's unfeasible to obtain by yourself (mostly for reasons of cost), and even if the qualification may not mean much to you, it may stop a potential employer from immediately discarding your C.V./résumé in those first few seconds. If you want to focus your energies primarily within the realm of programming, do consider universities.
 

ActiveMind

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The problem with this subject, I find is that I don't have the money nor the inclination to go back to school for x amount of years to learn one thing (not the INTP way). But then again, I also want to have a clear understanding of how and why, something that is scarce in my experience and something that not all teachers will acquiesce to.

What is the path of least resistance in terms of learning the most popular programming languages in terms of getting a clear yet concise understanding of what is being taught?
 

Amagi82

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The problem with this subject, I find is that I don't have the money nor the inclination to go back to school for x amount of years to learn one thing (not the INTP way). But then again, I also want to have a clear understanding of how and why, something that is scarce in my experience and something that not all teachers will acquiesce to.

What is the path of least resistance in terms of learning the most popular programming languages in terms of getting a clear yet concise understanding of what is being taught?
Search for programming bootcamps in your area. There are several of them here in San Francisco, though depending where you live such a course may not be available. devbootcamp, hackbright academy, and app academy are three I can think of off the top of my head. Most of them focus on web development, which is something I was never really interested in, but from what I hear they're quite good, and they do job placement, unlike your friendly 4+ year shitty university experience where you graduate and still don't have a clue, let alone a job.
 

Valentas

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Recently Barclays bank opened a branch in my country and they take in high school grads interested in becomming programmers. They pay above average salary, pay your trips but it si intensive two-year course and you must produce results quickly. Not for everyone. Also banks don't tend to be an interesting place to work.
 

Architect

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Recently Barclays bank opened a branch in my country and they take in high school grads interested in becomming programmers. They pay above average salary, pay your trips but it si intensive two-year course and you must produce results quickly. Not for everyone. Also banks don't tend to be an interesting place to work.

I have some friends doing Software Engineering for Barclays, been doing it a long time too. They seem to like it well enough.
 

ActiveMind

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Tried a Just BASIC class online. Utter boredom and minutiae ensued.
 

Grayman

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I took a C class in high school and loved it. I am fearful of going to college to learn more. I have taught myself VBasic, Visual C#, and very little C++ and am starting on Java in order to program some android systems. The API in C++ looks painful but the OOP in the .net framework is so easy. The best part is that it can be used with any language.

I find that teaching myself is a great struggle but at the same time, it allows me to pursue what I am interested in at any time. I also learn better through trial and failure than I do a classroom setting. Trial Failure experimentation gives me a wider understanding of how things can work together before I get the most practical approach from someone more learned than I.

I am currently a hobbiest but I built a few programs for work purposes, and I let them use it for free also. I also built a program for a school for free. I am not sure if I could ever be taken as a serious as someone who went to school and I am not sure if I have what it takes.

Any tips for someone like me?
 

pernoctator

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The problem with this subject, I find is that I don't have the money nor the inclination to go back to school for x amount of years to learn one thing (not the INTP way). But then again, I also want to have a clear understanding of how and why, something that is scarce in my experience and something that not all teachers will acquiesce to.

What is the path of least resistance in terms of learning the most popular programming languages in terms of getting a clear yet concise understanding of what is being taught?

I find that teaching myself is a great struggle but at the same time, it allows me to pursue what I am interested in at any time. I also learn better through trial and failure than I do a classroom setting. Trial Failure experimentation gives me a wider understanding of how things can work together before I get the most practical approach from someone more learned than I.

I am currently a hobbiest but I built a few programs for work purposes, and I let them use it for free also. I also built a program for a school for free. I am not sure if I could ever be taken as a serious as someone who went to school and I am not sure if I have what it takes.

Classes and teachers by their nature are suited to disseminating facts and assigning mindless tasks, but not to giving clear understanding and insight. Just jump in and do it yourself, learn from your mistakes, and keep looking for ways to do it better. It won't cost you any money, and you will learn far more than any school can give you.

There is an abundance of free information in the form of QA sites like stackoverflow, blogs, or even the official documentation of languages or APIs (some of them are written from the perspective of beginners, such as Python's). Even university lectures and famous books are free. Here's a list of countless more free books.

As for not being "taken seriously" for not having gone to school, I think this is an outdated myth. There is a lot of empty talk about this, but when it comes to people who are actually in charge of hiring, in my experience they don't give a damn whether you went to school... and rightly so, since there is no shortage of graduates who have no clue what they're doing when given real work.
 

rtezh

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The Pros
I know a lot of you just 'can't get into programming' and I can certainly see why. I hope you all find something you do enjoy or maybe you'll come back to it. IMHO, Programming is the ideal career. You can build the most abstract shit in you head that you couldn't build in the real world and then write code to construct an entire computational system that doesn't even really exist in a concrete way except on magnetic disks or in electrodes on an Solid State Drive. That is the definition of an INTP - the pursuit of ideas that exist in the human mind.

I am approaching the 40s and recently discovered that I am an INTP. Having read that programming is ideally suited for INTPs, I recently started with Ruby. Learning a language doesn't seem too exciting though.

On forums I've read that most software development does not require the use of Algorithms or abstractions. Hence, what do you mean when you say "build the most abstract shit in you head."

Can you give me a few examples of this abstraction?
 

RandomGeneratedName

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Been bouncing between attempted careers for a few years now.
Seemed like I revisted programming a few times though.

Could never get past the basics, bored off my ass. Find out later, apparently ADHD /shrug.

Right now in the middle of an identity crisis after 3+year relationship with an INFJ, and as always in this relationship, there's bad timing... Over the next few months, I'm under social pressure to make big decisions which will make or break me, my life and my happiness.

Going from T80%~ to T1% in 3+ years, in a relationship with an INFJ... people really should give warnings about that combo, lol.

Early hours, I wandered onto a "6 reasons why you shouldn't do programming"(or suited whatever - all nighter) and I was all 6, so i've been looking back into programming all night, and have decided that I'm going to just put my big boy pants on and spin a middle finger at my self doubts and fears, and just get on with it, taking it on the chin.

I was doubting myself earlier and trying to rationalise not doing it, looking for reassurance earlier, like some of you guys are here. It fucking sucks, but hey, we can do it.

Going to start with Java (and android). Then move onto C++ in a few months.

I have ideas all the time and it's so goddamn annoying, cause I lose half/all of the day and don't even apply that stuff because I soon lose interest :storks:


I know INTP = similar to ADHD/possibly is. I am not a happy bunny on stimulants, but i've decided to stay on them until i've got a foundational basics of programming tied down and in the habit of programming daily.


Great post by Brachiosaurus. Thanks Brachi for sharing (if you ever read this), and wow... you remind me of how aggressive I was in my early 20s. :evil:
Wonder how he's doing with programming now. Any one know?

Programming:
Pros: Autonomy
Cons: Spending the rest of your life finding out what the rest of the world values (your software) and struggling like hell to understand and market it.

I must confess though. Having gone from consistant 80%~Thinking to 1%~ wanting the automonousiminity(ha) is actually wearing a little thin...

Don't say I never warned you guys about INFJs :p
(it's seriously fucking scary to be in this position)
Who said personal growth was easier though, right.



I could go on about the pros and cons of INTP as a programmer, but i'm a tangenter, i'll spare you guys today though :D
 

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I was CS major in college and switched to IS because I found programming to be extremely boring. I took Basic & Pascal while in High School and those were straight forward programming languages. Early in college I took C++ / Cobol and ASM (Assembler) was the one was the turning point for me. I realized that future career as programmer would involve hours of mundane tasks and didnt want to do it.
 

Ostap Bender

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What is IS exactly? (I have a feeling I would like that one too)

Information Systems which is more the business side of CS. IS would be for project manager that would design the system on paper and CS would be for programmer who would implement the design (10% of design life cycle).
 
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I don't see why programming is considered engineering. I never had. As someone mentioned previously, a piece of code usually doesn't have any life-threatening aspect to it. I don't see coders stamping software saying it's perfect and ready for use and staking professional liability and their livelihoods on it. If that were the case, I wouldn't have to patch and update things constantly. As someone who completed a doctorate in mechanical engineering and stamps drawing and calculations quite frequently, I don't see how the two fields occupy the same level. I don't what to be condescending, mind you, but it seems so odd to me that someone who writes code for a living calls themselves an engineer.

That being said, I did take programming in university and I'm always tweaking some piece of code I've written, or starting something new, nearly every day for algorithms I've written for the purposes of day trading.
 

Architect

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I don't see why programming is considered engineering. I never had. As someone mentioned previously, a piece of code usually doesn't have any life-threatening aspect to it.

Squeeze me? I mean, excuse me? What? Seriously? Gotta take a break here to laugh my ass off.

f that were the case, I wouldn't have to patch and update things constantly.

What???? Heart defibrillators don't get software updates? Or deep brain implantation devices for Parkinson's? Or cochlear ear implants and hearing aids? What about finance? Not mission critical?

I've either worked on, or closely known engineers who worked on all of those platforms. The brain implant is actually updatable wirelessly, and I used to work with the main DSP engineer for ear implants.

That being said, I did take programming in university

OK, clear.
 

redbaron

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- you're a programmer

Cons:
- you're a programmer
 
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Squeeze me? I mean, excuse me? What? Seriously? Gotta take a break here to laugh my ass off.


What???? Heart defibrillators don't get software updates? Or deep brain implantation devices for Parkinson's? Or cochlear ear implants and hearing aids? What about finance? Not mission critical?

I've either worked on, or closely known engineers who worked on all of those platforms. The brain implant is actually updatable wirelessly, and I used to work with the main DSP engineer for ear implants.

OK, clear.

I said "usually." I would bet there is probably more software that is not involved in medical devices that than there is. I wouldn't consider finance to be life-threatening; I build financial and economic models all the time. It's not the same if I screw up and designate the wrong flange on a pressure vessel and it explodes or the calculations for a building or bridge are incorrect and it collapses. I've never heard of a software engineer having his or her license revoked and sent to prison for negligence or stupidity.
 

del

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I don't see why programming is considered engineering. I never had. As someone mentioned previously, a piece of code usually doesn't have any life-threatening aspect to it. I don't see coders stamping software saying it's perfect and ready for use and staking professional liability and their livelihoods on it. If that were the case, I wouldn't have to patch and update things constantly. As someone who completed a doctorate in mechanical engineering and stamps drawing and calculations quite frequently, I don't see how the two fields occupy the same level. I don't what to be condescending, mind you, but it seems so odd to me that someone who writes code for a living calls themselves an engineer.

That being said, I did take programming in university and I'm always tweaking some piece of code I've written, or starting something new, nearly every day for algorithms I've written for the purposes of day trading.

Bold is wrong. I program PLCs and you'll see that software stamped, especially on government funded jobs.
 
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Bold is wrong. I program PLCs and you'll see that software stamped, especially on government funded jobs.

So, you're telling that a licensed professional engineer stamps these with a rubber stamp and signature on the software adding his or her professional and, occasionally, personal liability to it?

If that is the case, it means the software is absolutely perfect.
 

Analyzer

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I said "usually." I would bet there is probably more software that is not involved in medical devices that than there is. I wouldn't consider finance to be life-threatening; I build financial and economic models all the time. It's not the same if I screw up and designate the wrong flange on a pressure vessel and it explodes or the calculations for a building or bridge are incorrect and it collapses. I've never heard of a software engineer having his or her license revoked and sent to prison for negligence or stupidity.

I only have experience with software for web applications but what about planes or embedded devices? I'm sure there are systems in planes which are synched or tested using software. Flying people around in a metal container can be life threatening.
 
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