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Quird

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Hi all. Me and my wife are trying to conceive and it's getting really hard for both of us. We've been trying for about 8 months and it's just not happening. We're trying this ovulation calculator for the next few months to try get our timing a little better which hopefully will help. We're considering going to a doctors to test for infertility. Is there anything else we should be looking at before that?

Many thanks for any suggestions. :)
 

onesteptwostep

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Hi, welcome to intpf. Unfortunately we don't have a lot of married couples on this forum. There's a few a the top of my head but they seldom post here now. I would recommend a bigger place like reddit. Good luck. :)
 

Cognisant

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Stress has a profound effect on the body, relax, don't worry, you're not ordering a package on Amazon it'll happen at its own pace.
 

Serac

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Maybe look into diets. Ive heard that e.g. vegans tend to lose fertility because they mess up their hormones.

I personally would recommend a meat/fish-based diet, no sugars, no starch, no processed garbage foods.
 

washti

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In case of woman fertility it's worth to check up for PCOS and insulin resistance they often lead to difficulty with conception.
 

Quird

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Thank you so much for all the responses! I really appreciate it :)

Hi, welcome to intpf. Unfortunately we don't have a lot of married couples on this forum. There's a few a the top of my head but they seldom post here now. I would recommend a bigger place like reddit. Good luck. :)
I'll check out looking for bigger communities, found a few i.e. r/infertility but think I'll lurk for a bit before joining!

Stress has a profound effect on the body, relax, don't worry, you're not ordering a package on Amazon it'll happen at its own pace.
Makes me happy every time I hear that song. You're certainly right about stress having such an impact

Maybe look into diets. Ive heard that e.g. vegans tend to lose fertility because they mess up their hormones.

I personally would recommend a meat/fish-based diet, no sugars, no starch, no processed garbage foods.
I like to think I eat fairly healthily, but there's definitely cheat days and bad habits all over the place. I've wanted make myself eat a better rounded diet/generally more healthy but have never had the push I need - maybe this is it! Interesting you bring up the infertility via diet thing, might be worth really thinking about what I eat and how it affects me.

In case of woman fertility it's worth to check up for PCOS and insulin resistance they often lead to difficulty with conception.
I've wanted to go to the GP about it but read quite a lot they won't really listen or do much until you've been trying for 12+ months. Afaik I don't have any other symptoms of PCOS or other main possible reproductive issues but you never know.

Thank you all again, it means a lot more than you think!
 

Minuend

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Maybe look into diets. Ive heard that e.g. vegans tend to lose fertility because they mess up their hormones.
Are you saying being vegan have the added benefit of being more or less sterile? That would be awesome, but also sounds kinda pseudoscientific, so I wouldn't drop birth control just yet. Imagine if you could go vegan when you didn't want kids, that would be amazing, as the pill might fuck your shit up and condoms aren't a 100% sure.
 

baccheion

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Had any blood work done? Hormone, thyroid, nutrient, etc panels may be revealing. There are YouTube videos mentioning supplements women have tried to increase likelihood of conceiving. On the other hand, maybe the body is saying something if averse to getting pregnant.
 

washti

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Diet causes hormonal imbalances in women with low body fat percentage. It could occur on any diet type. Not only vegan.

No matter your -vore if not balanced may contribute to lack of conception.

OP so what specific medical actions you and your partner already did to understand your problem?
 

washti

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Hold on

Afaik I don't have any other symptoms of PCOS or other main possible reproductive issues but you never know.
As a man it would be indeed quite a phenomena if you have it. PCOS - Polycystic ovary syndrome. Hi troll.
 

Cognisant

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Couples sometimes post with one account.
 

lightfire

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I don't get why he/she/its asking for medical advice on this forum, makes more sense on a medical forum, or just go to a doctor.
 

washti

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I bet it's Pizzabeak sock looking for attention I just generously provided.
 

Serac

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Diet causes hormonal imbalances in women with low body fat percentage. It could occur on any diet type. Not only vegan.

No matter your -vore if not balanced may contribute to lack of conception.

OP so what specific medical actions you and your partner already did to understand your problem?
while it is true that body fat in itself affects hormones, one also finds cases where e.g. women get their period back only after a few weeks after going back to eating animal foods like eggs, fish, etc. Then it's not really about body fat – it might be fat-soluble vitamins, certain specific fats like omega 3, proteins etc.

"balanced" diet is just nonsense in my view. 90% of what people eat on a balanced diet is trash (wheat and starch from pastas and bread, tons of sugar from fruits, yogurts and misc snacks, lots of anti-nutrients from vegetables, legumes, seeds, etc)
 

washti

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yeah just sink teeth in sweat pearled skin of your prey.
warning tho - if you proceed into the stomach. watch out. the contents could include unnecessary anti-nutrient, the travesty known as vitamin C
 

Pizzabeak

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Diet causes hormonal imbalances in women with low body fat percentage. It could occur on any diet type. Not only vegan.

No matter your -vore if not balanced may contribute to lack of conception.

OP so what specific medical actions you and your partner already did to understand your problem?
while it is true that body fat in itself affects hormones, one also finds cases where e.g. women get their period back only after a few weeks after going back to eating animal foods like eggs, fish, etc. Then it's not really about body fat – it might be fat-soluble vitamins, certain specific fats like omega 3, proteins etc.

"balanced" diet is just nonsense in my view. 90% of what people eat on a balanced diet is trash (wheat and starch from pastas and bread, tons of sugar from fruits, yogurts and misc snacks, lots of anti-nutrients from vegetables, legumes, seeds, etc)
No, that's the old model. They revised it (the "food pyramid") so there's less bread, starch, and processed, refined sugars already, so you're wrong about that too. You aren't an expert. I don't see how people can't see through this attitude, just because you don't want to, and can't, focus on harder sciences (computer programming; etc), you have to be relegated to things like "nutrition" or other bodily health related fields, in hopes it makes you "smarter" because your brain-mind complex is less stuffed with extra knowledge or information, so you could, hypothetically, focus on more people stuff, which causes the illusion you're "woke" or "aware". People are "tired of the song and dance". No one really keeps track of what they're eating that much by writing it down and keeping notes (not just mental notes), if you took a class on health in school, you'd do something like that, but you didn't major in nursing, you googled factoids on that briefly before posting some text on your feelings concerning it.
 

washti

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Check up ppl who live longest and are the most physically/mentally able when compered with their age peers in other countries- what they eat? Blue zone diets.like Okinawa in Japan and specifically Sardinia Italy. And why according to half century of research mediterranean diet constitutes the healthiest one. Hint there are veggies, vegetable oil like hehe olive, fruits, nuts seeds, pasta bread legumes and cheese there. Meat is restricted especially red one (1-2 servings per month). If you check up blue zones they have all this pretty much incomon.

Also why ppl with cardiovascular problems, strokes and after heart attack fair best on vegetarian and vegan diets. So weird. You may though that if carbs are to be blamed they would drop it after severe health damage like heart attack

tho keto or evean lower carb diet is good for people with epilepsy. I have empirical evidence here with my brother. It reduced his attacks in half. And medicine dosage is lower as well.
 

Serac

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@washti interesting that when talking about veganism and infertility, you immediately concluded that the cause was something unrelated to veganism –lower body fat in general. Whereas here, you do the opposite – conclude that whatever effect there is must be due to the specific diet. Obviously a handy way to reason about things.

Things like beans, seeds, tomatoes have large anti-nutrient content like lectins. These substances not only inhibit vitamin absorption but also are highly inflammatory (vegans tend to get a lot of inflammatory issues). Fruits are obviously full of fructose which is both highly inflammatory and causes liver damage.

The link between heart disease and red meat is a very dubious one. If you look at the statistical evidence, only some studies find this link – which is not a good sign taking into account things like publication bias. And obviously, it's hard to draw any conclusions from such studies because one cannot perform this as a controlled experiment.
 

Pizzabeak

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@washti interesting that when talking about veganism and infertility, you immediately concluded that the cause was something unrelated to veganism –lower body fat in general. Whereas here, you do the opposite – conclude that whatever effect there is must be due to the specific diet. Obviously a handy way to reason about things.

Things like beans, seeds, tomatoes have large anti-nutrient content like lectins. These substances not only inhibit vitamin absorption but also are highly inflammatory (vegans tend to get a lot of inflammatory issues). Fruits are obviously full of fructose which is both highly inflammatory and causes liver damage.

The link between heart disease and red meat is a very dubious one. If you look at the statistical evidence, only some studies find this link – which is not a good sign taking into account things like publication bias. And obviously, it's hard to draw any conclusions from such studies because one cannot perform this as a controlled experiment.
Carbs aren’t that nutrient dense. What is your point? So you researched a little just to type “lectins” as extra detail so when people research they aren’t as surprised to read it (as if they didn’t already know the term)? Inflammation isn’t good no matter what.

Body fat has nothing to do with it besides storing waste longer in its fat cells. Everyone is different so people could have different efficiencies metabolizing nutrients.

Diets only work in so far as exercise and health, I would try increasing testosterone through any means, and reducing blood pressure in general (through the cardiac system). Make the timing perfect too.
 

moody

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Maybe look into diets. Ive heard that e.g. vegans tend to lose fertility because they mess up their hormones.

I personally would recommend a meat/fish-based diet, no sugars, no starch, no processed garbage foods.
I think that's mainly where there isn't enough fats in the diet. It's especially a problem if you were previously a meat eater, and didn't substitute fat content with making the transition. It looks like high fruit (natural sugars) and vegetable consumption is definately key! *Olive oil is magical.
I just wouldn't recommend fish or chicken in general, if you are not a meat eater; but if you are, it's probably wise. Just don't go crazy. Mercury and polution content is real.

 

Serac

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I agree that during a pregnancy, too much fish is not good due to the mercury content. In the long-run though, I don't see what other foods we have that have an adequate ratio of omega 3 to omega 6. The argument against chicken is also that it has very high omega 6 content.

"natural sugars" is of course a stupid expression, because this sugar is just like any other sugar – it's either glucose or fructose, but mostly fructose. Once again, fructose causes inflammation, liver scarring, subsequent fatty-liver disease, etc. Fruits are mostly just sugar and water. The only benefit of eating fruits vs candy is that fruit has fiber which counteracts some of the bad effects of fructose. But in general, my opinion is that fruit will have a net negative effect on your health.
 

Minuend

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interesting that when talking about veganism and infertility, you immediately concluded that the cause was something unrelated to veganism –lower body fat in general. Whereas here, you do the opposite – conclude that whatever effect there is must be due to the specific diet. Obviously a handy way to reason about things.

Things like beans, seeds, tomatoes have large anti-nutrient content like lectins. These substances not only inhibit vitamin absorption but also are highly inflammatory (vegans tend to get a lot of inflammatory issues). Fruits are obviously full of fructose which is both highly inflammatory and causes liver damage.

The link between heart disease and red meat is a very dubious one. If you look at the statistical evidence, only some studies find this link – which is not a good sign taking into account things like publication bias. And obviously, it's hard to draw any conclusions from such studies because one cannot perform this as a controlled experiment.
What do you think is optimal to eat?

In the terms of red meat, that's an obvious carcinogenic in large amounts, that's pretty much agreed upon in ><science ><> It's not dubious at all.

How do people like the okinawas even survive when they eat like 60% sweet potatoes and less than 3% meat/ animal product if what you say is fact? How is it even possible they are among the longest living people on our planet (or was until they adopted the western diet).

I actually think shit like absorption and anti-nutrients are poorly understood and will turn out to be different than we think. I think the way we measure these things is off. Our bodies uses what we eat in a larger whole, our body doesnt take 1 nutrient from 1 food dependent on what % of nutrient that food has. I think our bodies adsorb based on what we need and the combination we eat food in. You wont absorb much iron if you don't consume c vitamin, and the same goes for everything else we consume. At the same time, getting too much iron can be bad for your health

Our bodies tend to be understimated, we can adapt more readily than what most people think, and our bodies adapt nutrition intake based on what it needs and is provided. We wouldn't have survived if our bodies were pussies who could only survive on 1 type of food, if we weren't able to survive because tomatoes inhibited nutrition
 

Serac

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@Minuend Accroding to WHO, there is a weak statistical link between red-meat consumption and colon cancer. The problem is that they also state that things like high-temperature preparation of meat creates carcinogens, and it's also impossible to say for sure whether it's the red meat that causes cancer or something else that tends to be consumed by people who eat more red meat than others.

I personally have been pretty preoccupied with finding sources of inflammation in particular, because I'm myself someone who deals with arthritis. In terms of indigenous peoples, one interesting case for me is the Sami people who have an extremely high incidence of rheumatoid arthritis. These people, before the industrialization of the western world, used to only eat reindeer meat and fish, with the exception of some berries during summer. I would guess they had lower incidence of rheumatoid arthritis then. And one has to remember that for every indigenous group (including the okinawas), the only source of protein – and likely the main source of micronutrients – has always been meat, fish, and animal organs. I am a believer that plants have been eaten by humans only out of caloric necessity and at the expense of suffering elevated inflammation levels. It's only in the past few thousand years that humans have started mass-consuming grains, fruits and vegetables as main parts of their diets. And despite people proclaiming the great micronutrient content of plants, they never discuss the bioavailability of these – which is often next to zero.

In short, my opinion is that the optimal diet is one where meats, fats, and organs like liver constitute the main source of protein and micronutrients, while sugars (both mono- and polysaccharides), grains, seeds, fruits and vegetables are largely avoided.
 

Pizzabeak

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And despite people proclaiming the great micronutrient content of plants, they never discuss the bioavailability of these – which is often next to zero.
Can you cite any sources or books backing this up?
In short, my opinion is that the optimal diet is one where meats, fats, and organs like liver constitute the main source of protein and micronutrients, while sugars (both mono- and polysaccharides), grains, seeds, fruits and vegetables are largely avoided.
This sounds familiar, I'm clueless as to whether you're sure this is your opinion or not, and what the implications of that are.
Accroding to WHO, there is a weak statistical link between red-meat consumption and colon cancer. The problem is that they also state that things like high-temperature preparation of meat creates carcinogens, and it's also impossible to say for sure whether it's the red meat that causes cancer or something else that tends to be consumed by people who eat more red meat than others.
Your tone suggests you're trying to come off as cool, calm, collected, and an expert, except, you are not. Okay. Everyone is different, everyone suffers from their own ailments, everyone might require different treatment, some need more meat or protein than others mostly not as a preference, but as food. Free radicals can occur upon chemically changing the food (i.e. the substance that comprises it) and people's body can malfunction trying to metabolize too many of those. It's not an association linked to diet, possibly wine being a leading candidate contributing factors to that.
(including the okinawas)
What the fuck is an "okinawas"? I can't trust anyone who would write something like that. You are an INTJ, gtfoh.
What do you think is optimal to eat?
I wouldn't even ask his or anyone else's opinion. There is no secret knowledge this guy knows and no one else doesn't.
 

baccheion

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The best diet is probably one with a little bit of everything (ie, spread it around). Many tend to be missing things like greens, quality water, etc. Sometimes even watery fruits.

IIRC, animals in the wild are said to eat organ meats after a kill and not muscle meat or bones.

Certain nutrients and calories are required due to other nutrients being consumed. That is, calorie requirements may be different if consuming all blended vegetables than if consuming red meat.

MSM (organic sulfur) increases cell permeability and gut absorption overtime, potentially lowering calorie requirements. That is, inefficient digestion can also change an individual's requirements.

Some run better on mostly carbs based on genetics (like myself, technically), while others do better with protein + fat. Being able to determine which combination lines up with someone's genetics, etc would probably do more to help them than pointing to a mediterranean diet or keto.
 

Minuend

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@Minuend Accroding to WHO, there is a weak statistical link between red-meat consumption and colon cancer. The problem is that they also state that things like high-temperature preparation of meat creates carcinogens, and it's also impossible to say for sure whether it's the red meat that causes cancer or something else that tends to be consumed by people who eat more red meat than others.
I'm not balls deep in red meat science, I assume if they label red meat as carcinogenic, it's because the science is pretty solid. If you have researched the topic in depth, checking biased sources on either side and found that the research is weak, then sure, go ahead. Considering all the commercial interests behind shilling it and people genereally wanting it to be good for you, I find it a bit weird it made it to the cancer list, but I wont close off any possibilities I haven't researched. Especially in this case it makes no difference to my life, so my stance doesn't matter

I personally have been pretty preoccupied with finding sources of inflammation in particular, because I'm myself someone who deals with arthritis.
That sucks, my mother has arthritis and is on disability because of it. Did you get diagnosed early? My mother was treated like shit by health care for like 4-5 years before she was diagnosed. They thought she was a hypocondriac and even sent her to a chiropractor who knead and put pressure on her limbs which caused horrible pain because arthritis. Imagine someone pressing on your limbs when you're in horrible pain....

I am a believer that plants have been eaten by humans only out of caloric necessity and at the expense of suffering elevated inflammation levels. It's only in the past few thousand years that humans have started mass-consuming grains, fruits and vegetables as main parts of their diets. And despite people proclaiming the great micronutrient content of plants, they never discuss the bioavailability of these – which is often next to zero.

In short, my opinion is that the optimal diet is one where meats, fats, and organs like liver constitute the main source of protein and micronutrients, while sugars (both mono- and polysaccharides), grains, seeds, fruits and vegetables are largely avoided.
I think you'll find populations which ate a lot of fats and meat did poorly, and populations in the blue zones that washti mentioned, does very well in terms of longevity

But regardless, you'll be better off if you abstain from stupid carbs, alcohol, bad fats and so. Whether that diet is vegan, low carb or whatever (unless the low carb is eating butter and then put butter in your coffe, then ur gonna die young)
 

Serac

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@Minuend yes, the current knowledge on arthritis is comically poor. I was also told initially that it was "definitely not arthritis", then diagnosed a few months later after a genetic test. Had it for about 7 years now, but you wouldn't be able to tell. Painkillers, diet, and lots of exercise does the trick.
 

lightfire

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Whether that diet is vegan, low carb or whatever (unless the low carb is eating butter and then put butter in your coffe, then ur gonna die young)
Truth. Man this reminds me one time I had dinner with some people who were all passing around the butter as a condiment, putting it into soups or spreading it on their bread. One if them was vegan (I'm not sure how cuz the butter ain't vegan), the rest ate red meats mostly. I feel bad saying this but the vegan and the rest of her family did not have healthy habits and were obese.

I notice tons of bad habits in American diets. Most of the diets consist of red meats, bad fats, deep fried, covered in cheese/sauces, being a huge part of the meal, whereas in Asian and even Mediterranean diets red meats are eaten as a side/once or twice a week. Teas or something high in antioxidants are also part of the daily meals.

Probably my own opinion but: I think lean proteins and fiber are good. Red meats good as long as its lean. Diet is high in antioxidants. Green tea, grapefruit, etc. And low in bad fats. There are good fats like olive oil, avocado, some seafood. High carb is good only if your an athlete, and are going to burn it off the moment you eat it. If you're not an athlete then eat complex carbs. Greens and stuff are good too. Anyways this thread makes me want to live at the gym.
 

Serac

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To point to fat and red meat as the main issues concerning the American diet is amusingly foolish. I would try processed foods and sugar.
 

lightfire

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Yeah I forgot to mention the processed, sugary stuff too.
 

baccheion

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Whether that diet is vegan, low carb or whatever (unless the low carb is eating butter and then put butter in your coffe, then ur gonna die young)
Truth. Man this reminds me one time I had dinner with some people who were all passing around the butter as a condiment, putting it into soups or spreading it on their bread. One if them was vegan (I'm not sure how cuz the butter ain't vegan), the rest ate red meats mostly. I feel bad saying this but the vegan and the rest of her family did not have healthy habits and were obese.

I notice tons of bad habits in American diets. Most of the diets consist of red meats, bad fats, deep fried, covered in cheese/sauces, being a huge part of the meal, whereas in Asian and even Mediterranean diets red meats are eaten as a side/once or twice a week. Teas or something high in antioxidants are also part of the daily meals.

Probably my own opinion but: I think lean proteins and fiber are good. Red meats good as long as its lean. Diet is high in antioxidants. Green tea, grapefruit, etc. And low in bad fats. There are good fats like olive oil, avocado, some seafood. High carb is good only if your an athlete, and are going to burn it off the moment you eat it. If you're not an athlete then eat complex carbs. Greens and stuff are good too. Anyways this thread makes me want to live at the gym.
Organ meats. Animals in the wild are said to consume organs, leaving the muscle meat humans are biased toward. Getting more calories from (saturated and monounsaturated) fats than protein is one part of normalizing/maintaining gender hormones. For example, 40% carbs + 30% fat + 30% protein.

Excess fiber is unnecessary and can be problematic. It's mainly preferred due to increased satiation and bowel transit. See instead: magnesium.

Green tea extract can be bad for the liver if someone possesses a particular genetic mutation.

One large problem is insufficient vitamin D and magnesium. Beyond that, some say the RDA was originally to be set at 800 mg. Magnesium and chlorophyll are present in greens.

DHEA is said to be the only hormone that declines with age and that it's due to accumulated stress/cortisol/inflammation. Maintaining levels (via supplements if necessary) as indicated by lab work can improve health and youthfulness.
 

Minuend

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yes, the current knowledge on arthritis is comically poor. I was also told initially that it was "definitely not arthritis", then diagnosed a few months later after a genetic test. Had it for about 7 years now, but you wouldn't be able to tell. Painkillers, diet, and lots of exercise does the trick.
How were you diagnosed if you were told it's not arthritis? Why were you told it's not arthritis? Did you bring up that diagnoses yourself? Were you refereed by your doctor immediately even though s/he was skeptical?

Kinda curious, because illnesses within the rheumatic spectrum has shown in studies to be diagnosed later and have more difficulty getting a diagnosis. And I've grown up rurally and experienced a couple of people who got their diagnosis late.

I hope you will continue to do okay, though. Being forced into welfare at a young age where you didn't even get to "prove" your worth (worth is usually measured from work etc) is quite hellish.

Truth. Man this reminds me one time I had dinner with some people who were all passing around the butter as a condiment, putting it into soups or spreading it on their bread. One if them was vegan (I'm not sure how cuz the butter ain't vegan), the rest ate red meats mostly. I feel bad saying this but the vegan and the rest of her family did not have healthy habits and were obese.

Probably my own opinion but: I think lean proteins and fiber are good. Red meats good as long as its lean. Diet is high in antioxidants. Green tea, grapefruit, etc. And low in bad fats. There are good fats like olive oil, avocado, some seafood. High carb is good only if your an athlete, and are going to burn it off the moment you eat it. If you're not an athlete then eat complex carbs. Greens and stuff are good too. Anyways this thread makes me want to live at the gym.
Vegans or vegetarians aren't healthier just because they avoid meats. Some of them eat junk food and drink tons of beer, so yeah you can eat and drink pretty shittily if you're vegan. There's so much empty carbs and bad food to eat as a vegan

I think lean proteins and fiber is good too. I don't think all meat amino acids are cancer or anything, I think the human body can absorb and use efficiently amino acids from meat. But I also think humans can absorb and use amino acids from plants and that we can thrive on a plant based diet + taking b12 (some protest the use of supplements here, but we actually give farm animals supplements. Like cos in norway get iodine so that they have more idodine in milk. Is it worse to tak iodine yourself rather than drinking milk? Also, b12 come from bacteria and i do believe it's supplemented in various animal feed) Which brings into question the ethical question of killing beings capable of suffering, like animals. I don't stick to a plant based diet because of fear of cancer, but because I can't justify eating lesser beings who are able to feel and experience. It's a "defend the weak" type of stance. I don't want to engage in violence or killing of animals unless it has a good reason.
 

Serac

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@Minuend Yes, there's not a lot of ways to diagnose arthritis until the physical traces of it show up in the bones etc. So some doctors rely on stone-age methods like just looking at which regions on the body are painful, stiff etc. So when I went to the first doctor, he rejected the idea based on locations of the pain. Later on I went to another doctor. She ordered a genetic test which resulted in the diagnosis. Later it also turned out that, unbeknownst to me, my father also had this stuff, which I didn't know because I haven't seen him since I was a kid.

And yeah, I have lived with a certain sense of urgency because of this
 

baccheion

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yes, the current knowledge on arthritis is comically poor. I was also told initially that it was "definitely not arthritis", then diagnosed a few months later after a genetic test. Had it for about 7 years now, but you wouldn't be able to tell. Painkillers, diet, and lots of exercise does the trick.
How were you diagnosed if you were told it's not arthritis? Why were you told it's not arthritis? Did you bring up that diagnoses yourself? Were you refereed by your doctor immediately even though s/he was skeptical?

Kinda curious, because illnesses within the rheumatic spectrum has shown in studies to be diagnosed later and have more difficulty getting a diagnosis. And I've grown up rurally and experienced a couple of people who got their diagnosis late.

I hope you will continue to do okay, though. Being forced into welfare at a young age where you didn't even get to "prove" your worth (worth is usually measured from work etc) is quite hellish.

Truth. Man this reminds me one time I had dinner with some people who were all passing around the butter as a condiment, putting it into soups or spreading it on their bread. One if them was vegan (I'm not sure how cuz the butter ain't vegan), the rest ate red meats mostly. I feel bad saying this but the vegan and the rest of her family did not have healthy habits and were obese.

Probably my own opinion but: I think lean proteins and fiber are good. Red meats good as long as its lean. Diet is high in antioxidants. Green tea, grapefruit, etc. And low in bad fats. There are good fats like olive oil, avocado, some seafood. High carb is good only if your an athlete, and are going to burn it off the moment you eat it. If you're not an athlete then eat complex carbs. Greens and stuff are good too. Anyways this thread makes me want to live at the gym.
Vegans or vegetarians aren't healthier just because they avoid meats. Some of them eat junk food and drink tons of beer, so yeah you can eat and drink pretty shittily if you're vegan. There's so much empty carbs and bad food to eat as a vegan

I think lean proteins and fiber is good too. I don't think all meat amino acids are cancer or anything, I think the human body can absorb and use efficiently amino acids from meat. But I also think humans can absorb and use amino acids from plants and that we can thrive on a plant based diet + taking b12 (some protest the use of supplements here, but we actually give farm animals supplements. Like cos in norway get iodine so that they have more idodine in milk. Is it worse to tak iodine yourself rather than drinking milk? Also, b12 come from bacteria and i do believe it's supplemented in various animal feed) Which brings into question the ethical question of killing beings capable of suffering, like animals. I don't stick to a plant based diet because of fear of cancer, but because I can't justify eating lesser beings who are able to feel and experience. It's a "defend the weak" type of stance. I don't want to engage in violence or killing of animals unless it has a good reason.
Non-animal protein results in lower testosterone among males, which is especially bad during puberty. Also, organ meats are preferrable to muscle meats. Spread it around.
 

Serac

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baccheion is right on the money I think. Its all about fats and organs. Indigenous tribes prepared the most nutricious food they had when they wanted to conceive - which was things like liver. When it comes to fatty meats, nutrient content will depend on what the animal ate. E.g. grass-fed beef is more nutricious than corn-fed, etc.
 

Polaris

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The morphology of mammal's teeth and digestive tract are reflective of evolutionary adaptation to different diets, but of course there are many exemptions to the apparent general patterns. Most obligate carnivores have razor sharp canines and lack molars, which means they have to tear the meat off and swallow it more or less whole. Human teeth are shaped to be able to both tear at pieces of meat (we have smaller and less developed canines than obligate carnivores) as well, as grinding up various vegetable matter (large molar teeth). This would indicate our dentition is set up for omnivorous diets, but it is also dependent on which part of the world one comes from and the diet of our ancestors from those particular parts. Inuit people of the Arctic had to survive on more or less 100% carnivorous food, but more research has indicated they weren't as healthy as some sources would like to claim. The Masai people of Africa have lived on mostly carnivorous diets and displayed very few signs of heart disease. But of course, the Masai also spend a lot of their time running and chasing their bloody food around, which may explain why they are still fit and healthy, dhuh.

However, the human dentition is reflective of our tendency for being generalists, which is partially a reason for our success ( if you want to call it that) as a species. We can survive on and adapt to different diets in times of increased environmental pressures. Think Darwin's finches and all the different beak shapes that were a direct result of high competition and the resulting need for specialisation in a confined spatial context. Humans have also cooked food for long enough for our physiology to gradually adapt to it, so the claim that we should only be eating raw food is not entirely correct either, but of course there are benefits to eating some foods raw.

The fact that humans are neither obligate herbivores or carnivores means we can survive for longer on either diet, depending on climate, competition, energy consumption and genetics. Obligate carnivores have short small intestines which allows for more efficient processing of meat. Human small intestines are shorter than obligate herbivores, but longer than obligate carnivores. True carnivores swallow their meat whole because they don't have digestive enzymes in their saliva. Humans have digestive enzymes in their saliva, which aids the breakdown of various foods before it passes through the digestive tract. Contrary to popular belief, meat is easily digestible, which is why carnivores and omnivores have shorter small intestines. Cellulose is difficult to digest, which is reflected in ruminant's need to chew for hours, multiple stomachs and long intestinal tracts. But someobligate carnivores still have to ingest small amounts of vegetable matter to facilitate digestion. This is true for cats who eat grass almost every day to eliminate fur balls and speed up digestion. And carnivores do ingest small amounts of vegetable and grains indirectly as a result of eating birds and mammal's stomach contents.

So yeah, to expend a lot of energy in a really cold climate on a strict vegan diet would most likely not be sustainable for long. But probably fine for sitting inside, playing videogames. Likewise, eating a high-energy, purely meat-based diet in a temperate climate, sitting in front of a box all day would have equally disastrous consequences for long term health....:rolleyes:

Of course there is the claim that there are many "modern"diseases that have proliferated as a result of the agricultural revolution and mass production of grain- based, carbohydrate foods; diabetes, heart disease, dental diseases, etc. Coeliac disease is interesting as it is an immunoreaction to gluten, a protein found in many grains. However, it may also be worth considering that proliferation of cancers and so-called modern "lifestyle diseases" are more obvious or even possible because of our longer lifespans. With my own background in palaeopathology and dentistry, I would speculate there would be plenty of disease data unavailable or hidden in the fossil record that we simply cannot access, for obvious reasons. But human mummies of very ancient origins have been found with signs of atherosclerosis. The idea that certain diseases are thus a result of modern lifestyle is therefore up for debate. Seeing that humans have spread all over the planet since their inception, it would be natural to assume that humans would have adopted to different diets according to the surrounding climate and environment over time, and we would therefore perhaps have developed geographically different tolerances and/or intolerances to certain diets. I therefore think future medical research will be focusing even more on genetics and individual risk, rather than assuming we are all equally set up for the same disease development.
 

baccheion

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The morphology of mammal's teeth and digestive tract are reflective of evolutionary adaptation to different diets, but of course there are many exemptions to the apparent general patterns. Most obligate carnivores have razor sharp canines and lack molars, which means they have to tear the meat off and swallow it more or less whole. Human teeth are shaped to be able to both tear at pieces of meat (we have smaller and less developed canines than obligate carnivores) as well, as grinding up various vegetable matter (large molar teeth). This would indicate our dentition is set up for omnivorous diets, but it is also dependent on which part of the world one comes from and the diet of our ancestors from those particular parts. Inuit people of the Arctic had to survive on more or less 100% carnivorous food, but more research has indicated they weren't as healthy as some sources would like to claim. The Masai people of Africa have lived on mostly carnivorous diets and displayed very few signs of heart disease. But of course, the Masai also spend a lot of their time running and chasing their bloody food around, which may explain why they are still fit and healthy, dhuh.

However, the human dentition is reflective of our tendency for being generalists, which is partially a reason for our success ( if you want to call it that) as a species. We can survive on and adapt to different diets in times of increased environmental pressures. Think Darwin's finches and all the different beak shapes that were a direct result of high competition and the resulting need for specialisation in a confined spatial context. Humans have also cooked food for long enough for our physiology to gradually adapt to it, so the claim that we should only be eating raw food is not entirely correct either, but of course there are benefits to eating some foods raw.

The fact that humans are neither obligate herbivores or carnivores means we can survive for longer on either diet, depending on climate, competition, energy consumption and genetics. Obligate carnivores have short small intestines which allows for more efficient processing of meat. Human small intestines are shorter than obligate herbivores, but longer than obligate carnivores. True carnivores swallow their meat whole because they don't have digestive enzymes in their saliva. Humans have digestive enzymes in their saliva, which aids the breakdown of various foods before it passes through the digestive tract. Contrary to popular belief, meat is easily digestible, which is why carnivores and omnivores have shorter small intestines. Cellulose is difficult to digest, which is reflected in ruminant's need to chew for hours, multiple stomachs and long intestinal tracts. But someobligate carnivores still have to ingest small amounts of vegetable matter to facilitate digestion. This is true for cats who eat grass almost every day to eliminate fur balls and speed up digestion. And carnivores do ingest small amounts of vegetable and grains indirectly as a result of eating birds and mammal's stomach contents.

So yeah, to expend a lot of energy in a really cold climate on a strict vegan diet would most likely not be sustainable for long. But probably fine for sitting inside, playing videogames. Likewise, eating a high-energy, purely meat-based diet in a temperate climate, sitting in front of a box all day would have equally disastrous consequences for long term health....:rolleyes:

Of course there is the claim that there are many "modern"diseases that have proliferated as a result of the agricultural revolution and mass production of grain- based, carbohydrate foods; diabetes, heart disease, dental diseases, etc. Coeliac disease is interesting as it is an immunoreaction to gluten, a protein found in many grains. However, it may also be worth considering that proliferation of cancers and so-called modern "lifestyle diseases" are more obvious or even possible because of our longer lifespans. With my own background in palaeopathology and dentistry, I would speculate there would be plenty of disease data unavailable or hidden in the fossil record that we simply cannot access, for obvious reasons. But human mummies of very ancient origins have been found with signs of atherosclerosis. The idea that certain diseases are thus a result of modern lifestyle is therefore up for debate. Seeing that humans have spread all over the planet since their inception, it would be natural to assume that humans would have adopted to different diets according to the surrounding climate and environment over time, and we would therefore perhaps have developed geographically different tolerances and/or intolerances to certain diets. I therefore think future medical research will be focusing even more on genetics and individual risk, rather than assuming we are all equally set up for the same disease development.
Many instances of cancer and other issues traced back to vitamin D and magnesium insufficiency. That is, there was some sort of long running deficiency lowering defenses.

Eating within a 1-6 hour window at least after turning 25 is likely another good idea, as more time is then spent healing (14 hours) than digesting/aging (10 hours). At an 8-hour window, it's a 50/50 split.

And watching/maintaining DHEA levels.
 

Serac

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@Polaris things like rheumatoid arthritis has been found in mummies from ancient Egypt - which I wouldn't consider a rebuke to the notion that modern diets predispose people to autoimmune disease, considering that ancient Egypt were one of the pioneers of agriculture and mass-production of grains. We're talking about people who lived within the past 4000 years; compare that to millions of years of prehistoric evolution, and in particular at least 100,000 years of homo sapiens living in hunter-gatherer tribes prior to the emergence of agriculture.
 

Minuend

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Non-animal protein results in lower testosterone among males, which is especially bad during puberty.
Well, no. That being said, if you're worried about testosterone you should unironically eat raw onion as that has shown to increase levels. Yes, it sounds like a joke.

things like rheumatoid arthritis has been found in mummies from ancient Egypt - which I wouldn't consider a rebuke to the notion that modern diets predispose people to autoimmune disease, considering that ancient Egypt were one of the pioneers of agriculture and mass-production of grains. We're talking about people who lived within the past 4000 years; compare that to millions of years of prehistoric evolution, and in particular at least 100,000 years of homo sapiens living in hunter-gatherer tribes prior to the emergence of agriculture.
I'm intrigued by the virus hypothesis, where it's believed we have viruses that triggers genes to where the body starts attacking itself, for instance. Basically the exposure of a certain virus, or several types of viruses, makes us ill. It would explain why we see a high degree of some illnesses, like MS, in some groups. Because the virus spread and triggered genes, or because it's common in that area. Or some people being genetically prone to having certain genes triggered.

That being said, diet has a lot of influence and is estimated to be one of the biggest factor determining how long we live and what illnesses we develop.

Also also, since you mention grains. There's a norwegian scientist who've done research on celiac and found that countries without a certain type of parasite in the gut has less prevalence of caliac than countries without. (I didnt find that guy, but this might be interesting) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4403024/

Also, I thought modern day grain was prepared differently from ancient egypt grain? We also use more fertilizers, I assume.
 

baccheion

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Non-animal protein results in lower testosterone among males, which is especially bad during puberty.
Well, no. That being said, if you're worried about testosterone you should unironically eat raw onion as that has shown to increase levels. Yes, it sounds like a joke.

things like rheumatoid arthritis has been found in mummies from ancient Egypt - which I wouldn't consider a rebuke to the notion that modern diets predispose people to autoimmune disease, considering that ancient Egypt were one of the pioneers of agriculture and mass-production of grains. We're talking about people who lived within the past 4000 years; compare that to millions of years of prehistoric evolution, and in particular at least 100,000 years of homo sapiens living in hunter-gatherer tribes prior to the emergence of agriculture.
I'm intrigued by the virus hypothesis, where it's believed we have viruses that triggers genes to where the body starts attacking itself, for instance. Basically the exposure of a certain virus, or several types of viruses, makes us ill. It would explain why we see a high degree of some illnesses, like MS, in some groups. Because the virus spread and triggered genes, or because it's common in that area. Or some people being genetically prone to having certain genes triggered.

That being said, diet has a lot of influence and is estimated to be one of the biggest factor determining how long we live and what illnesses we develop.

Also also, since you mention grains. There's a norwegian scientist who've done research on celiac and found that countries without a certain type of parasite in the gut has less prevalence of caliac than countries without. (I didnt find that guy, but this might be interesting) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4403024/

Also, I thought modern day grain was prepared differently from ancient egypt grain? We also use more fertilizers, I assume.
Well, no: https://reference.medscape.com/medline/abstract/11103227.
 

Minuend

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I'm having difficulty opening that. Is it a meta study? I assume you've been around studies enough to know 1 study of a small amount of people is insufficient to draw conclusions?

I mean, I can do the same https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2374537/pdf/83-6691152a.pdf

I can probably find a study more biased towards a plant based diet if we're doing the single study combat thing

It should be said I think overall diet is more important for shit like hormones and health, than whether you eat meat or not. If you eat a lot of processed shit and drink a lot, you're gonna feel bad. If you don't get enough fat or whether you get too much fat, it's gonna fuck you up. Western testosterone has declined and they eat more meat than ever. Most people want diet to be simple. Eat fish and meat and you're healthy. Eat vegan and you're healthy. But if your diet is shit it's never healthy to where it will help protect against illness, obesity etc

You take supplemets, no? Even when you eat meat, you still rely on supplements? I assume since you recommend GABA etc to people. I'm not saying that is wrong, just that eating meat wont magically solve all your problems. Neither will a vegan diet. There's probably more factors at work as to our well being than what we eat. Some of those factors we might be defenseless against, like if viruses turn on genes that makes our bodies attack itself.

I guess I should add a lot of people need supplements. Like in norway we're prone to vitamin D deficiency (long, dark winters) and iodine deficiency (not enough in diet, salt has some added, but not nearly enough. Cows are also supplemented in their diet to give more iodine in milk). Correct me if I'm wrong but pregnant women are recommended folate. New born babies gets d vitamines. My meat and fish eating sister had d vitamin deficiency recently.

Diet is complex.
 

baccheion

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I'm having difficulty opening that. Is it a meta study? I assume you've been around studies enough to know 1 study of a small amount of people is insufficient to draw conclusions?

I mean, I can do the same https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2374537/pdf/83-6691152a.pdf

I can probably find a study more biased towards a plant based diet if we're doing the single study combat thing

It should be said I think overall diet is more important for shit like hormones and health, than whether you eat meat or not. If you eat a lot of processed shit and drink a lot, you're gonna feel bad. If you don't get enough fat or whether you get too much fat, it's gonna fuck you up. Western testosterone has declined and they eat more meat than ever. Most people want diet to be simple. Eat fish and meat and you're healthy. Eat vegan and you're healthy. But if your diet is shit it's never healthy to where it will help protect against illness, obesity etc

You take supplemets, no? Even when you eat meat, you still rely on supplements? I assume since you recommend GABA etc to people. I'm not saying that is wrong, just that eating meat wont magically solve all your problems. Neither will a vegan diet. There's probably more factors at work as to our well being than what we eat. Some of those factors we might be defenseless against, like if viruses turn on genes that makes our bodies attack itself.

I guess I should add a lot of people need supplements. Like in norway we're prone to vitamin D deficiency (long, dark winters) and iodine deficiency (not enough in diet, salt has some added, but not nearly enough. Cows are also supplemented in their diet to give more iodine in milk). Correct me if I'm wrong but pregnant women are recommended folate. New born babies gets d vitamines. My meat and fish eating sister had d vitamin deficiency recently.

Diet is complex.
Another link: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-nutrition/article/effects-of-replacing-meat-with-soyabean-in-the-diet-on-sex-hormone-concentrations-in-healthy-adult-males/50C464775151BA6ECBF767221F763AFF.

I suppose a compounding of studies would need to then be presented to support your claim.

Regarding supplements: better to recommend labs. A comprehensive hormone panel, thyroid panel, nutrient panel, etc. There are some that even check sensitivity to a variety of foods (ie, eliminating ones causing excess inflammation would tend to further improve health). If labs show issues, then adjust diet and supplement strategy.
 

Minuend

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Study of 42 people..... Assuming all vegans eat soy....The comparison was tofu only Grrruauahejhejhe. What did you even google to find that?

Thus, replacement of meat protein with soyabean protein, as tofu, may have a minor effect on biologically-active sex hormones, which could influence prostate cancer risk. However, other factors or mechanisms may also be responsible for the different incidence rates in men on different diets.


Come on, dude, you're obviously being biased here. Don't try to find studies that disprove me, spend the week reading up on this stuff. Use your critical sense, ask questions. Rather than trying to prove me wrong, the bigger intellectual challenge is reviewing the evidence yourself and examining it without feelings and wants getting in the way.
 

baccheion

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Study of 42 people..... Assuming all vegans eat soy....The comparison was tofu only Grrruauahejhejhe. What did you even google to find that?

Thus, replacement of meat protein with soyabean protein, as tofu, may have a minor effect on biologically-active sex hormones, which could influence prostate cancer risk. However, other factors or mechanisms may also be responsible for the different incidence rates in men on different diets.

Come on, dude, you're obviously being biased here. Don't try to find studies that disprove me, spend the week reading up on this stuff. Use your critical sense, ask questions. Rather than trying to prove me wrong, the bigger intellectual challenge is reviewing the evidence yourself and examining it without feelings and wants getting in the way.
Prove your point. The idea is plant-based proteins have lower amounts of certain amino acids. Also, many more grams have to be consumed to be equivalent to animal protein ("isoenergetic").

Tofu only? What other plant-based proteins of relevance exist?

What opposes sex hormone synthesis? Primarily estrogen, parathyroid (low vitamin D, low calcium, excess phosphorus, etc), and pancreas (digestion, insulin..). There are also the primary rate-limiters (when low) like vitamin A, thyroid hormone, cholesterol..

Maybe with sufficient fat and carbs, production could be maintained. It seems like quite a task to keep even the mentioned systems purring while avoiding meat, which leads me further in the direction of thinking it decreases.
 

Serac

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I'm intrigued by the virus hypothesis, where it's believed we have viruses that triggers genes to where the body starts attacking itself, for instance. Basically the exposure of a certain virus, or several types of viruses, makes us ill. It would explain why we see a high degree of some illnesses, like MS, in some groups. Because the virus spread and triggered genes, or because it's common in that area. Or some people being genetically prone to having certain genes triggered.

That being said, diet has a lot of influence and is estimated to be one of the biggest factor determining how long we live and what illnesses we develop.

Also also, since you mention grains. There's a norwegian scientist who've done research on celiac and found that countries without a certain type of parasite in the gut has less prevalence of caliac than countries without. (I didnt find that guy, but this might be interesting) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4403024/

Also, I thought modern day grain was prepared differently from ancient egypt grain? We also use more fertilizers, I assume.
From what I understand, indigenous peoples and various groups who consumed grains and plants throughout history had varying outcomes in health depending on whether they developed methods for fermenting them or prepare them in certain ways like soaking them in water over long periods of time. These methods can remove the anti nutrients like oxalates and lectins, although I’m no expert in this. I generally just avoid grains and plants altogether.

In terms of gut bacteria/viruses yes, I’ve seen a lot of studies which establish links between that and various autoimmune diseases. It’s a helluva complicated subject of study though, considering that the gut contains millions of different bacteria interacting with your body. It’s kind of a miracle that for the most part, the body can figure out what bacteria should be left alone and what should be attacked by the immune system.
 

Minuend

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Prove your point. The idea is plant-based proteins have lower amounts of certain amino acids. Also, many more grams have to be consumed to be equivalent to animal protein ("isoenergetic").

Tofu only? What other plant-based proteins of relevance exist?

What opposes sex hormone synthesis? Primarily estrogen, parathyroid (low vitamin D, low calcium, excess phosphorus, etc), and pancreas (digestion, insulin..). There are also the primary rate-limiters (when low) like vitamin A, thyroid hormone, cholesterol..
Lentils, seeds, nuts, beans, seitan, tempeh, other soy products if you're ok with soy. You don't need to eat soy on a vegan diet, though. Other foods have an ok amount of protein, so if you eat normally, you'll get a normal amount of proteins.

Do you believe that calories is all that matters in term of weight and muscle btw? That eating x amount of calories in veggies will have the exact same effect on the body as x amount of calories of milk chocolate?

Even eating your entire daily caloric intake in vegetables (broccoli, cauliflower, peas, potatoes etc) will usually give you the minimal amount of protein needed if you don't do strength exercise.

Eating more in terms of grams can actually be beneficial in terms of loosing weight (if obese/ overweight) and maintain a normal weight.

Tofu has a fairly high protein to low calorie count.

Maybe with sufficient fat and carbs, production could be maintained. It seems like quite a task to keep even the mentioned systems purring while avoiding meat, which leads me further in the direction of thinking it decreases.
It seems. Have you tried finding some app or program that list nutrients, proteins, fats and input a vegan diet?

Quite a task? More diifcult than learning a new language, reading a book of philosophy, learning biology?

From what I understand, indigenous peoples and various groups who consumed grains and plants throughout history had varying outcomes in health depending on whether they developed methods for fermenting them or prepare them in certain ways like soaking them in water over long periods of time. These methods can remove the anti nutrients like oxalates and lectins, although I’m no expert in this. I generally just avoid grains and plants altogether.
There have been populations who have had a diet consisted of mostly plants and who thrived. It should be said we've been cooking plants for at least a 120 000 years and we have genes adapted to that effect. Oxalates is not a concern for healthy people as far as I know. As for lectins, just google meta studies on whatever your concern is.
 

baccheion

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Prove your point. The idea is plant-based proteins have lower amounts of certain amino acids. Also, many more grams have to be consumed to be equivalent to animal protein ("isoenergetic").

Tofu only? What other plant-based proteins of relevance exist?

What opposes sex hormone synthesis? Primarily estrogen, parathyroid (low vitamin D, low calcium, excess phosphorus, etc), and pancreas (digestion, insulin..). There are also the primary rate-limiters (when low) like vitamin A, thyroid hormone, cholesterol..
Lentils, seeds, nuts, beans, seitan, tempeh, other soy products if you're ok with soy. You don't need to eat soy on a vegan diet, though. Other foods have an ok amount of protein, so if you eat normally, you'll get a normal amount of proteins.

Do you believe that calories is all that matters in term of weight and muscle btw? That eating x amount of calories in veggies will have the exact same effect on the body as x amount of calories of milk chocolate?

Even eating your entire daily caloric intake in vegetables (broccoli, cauliflower, peas, potatoes etc) will usually give you the minimal amount of protein needed if you don't do strength exercise.

Eating more in terms of grams can actually be beneficial in terms of loosing weight (if obese/ overweight) and maintain a normal weight.

Tofu has a fairly high protein to low calorie count.

Maybe with sufficient fat and carbs, production could be maintained. It seems like quite a task to keep even the mentioned systems purring while avoiding meat, which leads me further in the direction of thinking it decreases.
It seems. Have you tried finding some app or program that list nutrients, proteins, fats and input a vegan diet?

Quite a task? More diifcult than learning a new language, reading a book of philosophy, learning biology?

From what I understand, indigenous peoples and various groups who consumed grains and plants throughout history had varying outcomes in health depending on whether they developed methods for fermenting them or prepare them in certain ways like soaking them in water over long periods of time. These methods can remove the anti nutrients like oxalates and lectins, although I’m no expert in this. I generally just avoid grains and plants altogether.
There have been populations who have had a diet consisted of mostly plants and who thrived. It should be said we've been cooking plants for at least a 120 000 years and we have genes adapted to that effect. Oxalates is not a concern for healthy people as far as I know. As for lectins, just google meta studies on whatever your concern is.
Even the study I quoted talked about "isoenergetic" allotments which resulted in many more grams of plant- than animal-based protein.

Nuts, eh? Yet another thing that lowers testosterone.

A calorie isn't a calorie. Certain nutrients aren't as required depending on overall intake, stress, and amount of exertion. For example, low-carbers don't need much vitamin C and elimination of PUFAs dramatically lowers vitamin E requirements.

Increased intestinal absorption and cell permeability can decrease calorie requirements, due to higher bioavailability of processed nutrients. MSM, riboflavin, etc help along absorption/uptake efficiency.

A bias toward foods that aren't as energy consuming to digest further lowers calorie requirements. For example, protein is harder for the body to process. Some don't gain (as much) weight with a higher percent of macros as protein, as more energy is used/drained during assimilation. Further, excess being converted to fat also requires more energy and is usually converted to waste and excreted in urine. A waste if trying to eat the minimum amount and taxing otherwise (especially as one gets old or doesn't consume enough water).
 

lightfire

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Meat makes me nauseous sometimes. I can eat it once a week if thats the case (that's a good amount too). It also gives me a chance to eat fruits and veggies that I usually wouldn't touch. I had asparagus for the first time a few weeks ago. It was awesome.
 
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