matter and spirit

[sushi]

is everything made of matter and spirit

modern science and materialism has reduced that everything is material and physical, there is no room for spiriit

is this true though

even human and life is made of matter only, the concept of soul has no room in science because it cant be proven

a thing is only matter and physical that make the thing.

therefore, is matter and spirit talk and theory obsolete, or has science only reveal matter and there is something deeper down

 

[Cognisant]

If spirit exists and we can interact with it doesn't that just make it another kind of physical phenomenon? Like matter and energy; physical in the sense that it exists within the scope of the study of physics.

And if can't be interacted with why does it matter?

 

[sushi]

good point

i am just saying not everything is matter and physical

there are some things that are immaterial and intangible

reducing everything to material and physcial doesnt explain anything


for example is time and age physcial? are events and ocurance, experiences physical

 

[Cognisant]

for example is time and age physcial? are events and ocurance, experiences physical

Yeah they are, physical properties aren't necessarily tangible properties, I can't touch taste or see time but I can record measure and study it, therefore it is within the scope of physics.

 

[sushi]

things go from physical to informational,? or is it just our brain playing tricks or creating memories?

all information and knowlege arise and emerge from physical phenonmenon?

 

[Black Rose]

all information and knowlege arise and emerge from physical phenonmenon?

information

in - formation

arrange the pieces and you get a new effect. different from expected. more than the sum. magic.

 

[ZenRaiden]

all information and knowlege arise and emerge from physical phenonmenon?

@Cognisant is absolutely right. Physics means Nature in greek.

Thus its with in the realm of natural science.

Physics measures the stuff and things that happen around us and trys to explain how things happen or interact with each other.

Its a little weird that people are taught this in schools, yet somehow people cannot understand what this means.

IF you have a soul then why would you assume that this soul has no impact on the material given that you are trapped with in material body?

What you are concerning yourself with is metaphysics.

It is literally in the name of the category. Meta means above - physics - nature.

AKA, unnatural, supernatural, above natural.

This is why people should probably learn latin and greek.

It will save you a lot of brain ache if you do learn latin and greek.

 

[sushi]

if an event happens and observed, it becomes information and history, such as holocust and whatever you encountered today at work

information by nature is not phyiscal, it arises from phyiscal
that is why it is so easy for people to deny something that has happened or give a different account, because they can falsify information after observation or event has passed.

 

[Sandglass]

Information is physical. Humans might not record information as obviously as a hard drive, but everything is still logged through physical interactions in our brains. If you cut out a chunk of your brain, all the information written there is gone.

Anything interacting with us must be physical, otherwise it won't interact with us. Its possible for phenomena to exist outside of the natural world, but its almost pointless to think about because there's no way to observe or interact from either direction.

For concepts like spirit or soul to make sense, they have to be defined in a way where they consist of brain patterns or heuristics. They can't be some intangible "thing" that pops in our bodies and operates them.



I could be wrong, but I feel like you're trying to pin down the problem of consciousness. The overlap with your post would be that there isn't any spirit or soul guiding us, our bodies would interact to stimuli and do what they do no matter what because they have to. The only room for a soul is as an observation to our patterns, not as a driving force.

 

[sushi]

I could be wrong, but I feel like you're trying to pin down the problem of consciousness. The overlap with your post would be that there isn't any spirit or soul guiding us, our bodies would interact to stimuli and do what they do no matter what because they have to. The only room for a soul is as an observation to our patterns, not as a driving force.

yes i am

the mind and consciousness is already a non physical entity, as well as time

not everything is composed of material and matter

 

[Sandglass]

I think the thing about consciousness is to try to figure out where and how exactly it connects with the physical world. If it isn't based on physics, it can't interact with our brains and has no relevance on us. Some experiments have shown that our body decides what it will do relative to stimuli before our consciousness "decides" it will do that action. Whatever consciousness is, it doesn't make us act; but I don't have an explanation for the qualia it experiences yet.

As for time, we are reliant on it progressing forward in order for our experience to develop. Because of this, I believe we are biased in how we perceive it. If something like the many worlds theory is 'true,' I can see time as being a static thing. But no matter the case, we will have issues observing it because of our dependence on it going in a specific direction.

 

[sushi]

but still everything is physical just doesnt quite make it

is a day or length of a day physical, is a month or year physical

it arises from motion and earth's rotation , but it is not physical

 

[Cognisant]

You're conflating physical with material.

Time is physical, this is by the strict definition of "physical" as in it pertains to physics, which is to say it can be measured and studied.

Physics means Nature in greek.

Perfect example, physics didn't have the same meaning to the ancient Greeks as it has to us today because the word was co-opted for use in scientific literature as a stand in for "as pertaining to nature".

 

[Black Rose]

spirit is motion
we are as beings not atoms but motion.
even by reductionism standards.

 

[ZenRaiden]

You're conflating physical with material.

Time is physical, this is by the strict definition of "physical" as in it pertains to physics, which is to say it can be measured and studied.

Physics means Nature in greek.

Perfect example, physics didn't have the same meaning to the ancient Greeks as it has to us today because the word was co-opted for use in scientific literature as a stand in for "as pertaining to nature".

Yeah not a linguist expert, but there is a lot of controversy about the way this word was used in the past or what it meant.

Phy for example can understood as IS
ta physis basically could also be understood in caveman talk as
that which is - is. Obviously this is speculation.
In other words an object while humans and human rules are subject the thing that acts on object. Object the thing that is being acted on.

 

[scorpiomover]

for example is time and age physcial? are events and ocurance, experiences physical

Yeah they are, physical properties aren't necessarily tangible properties, I can't touch taste or see time but I can record measure and study it, therefore it is within the scope of physics.

You can't touch the Sun either. But it is material, right?

You can see the Sun. But you can't see the suns of far-away galaxies. You can only see the galaxy. So then you can't see or touch the suns of far-away galaxies => they are not material ????

You're conflating physical with material.

Time is physical, this is by the strict definition of "physical" as in it pertains to physics, which is to say it can be measured and studied.

Physicists don't measure and study the human body (biologists and doctors do that) => human body is not physical ????

Physics means Nature in greek.

Perfect example, physics didn't have the same meaning to the ancient Greeks as it has to us today because the word was co-opted for use in scientific literature as a stand in for "as pertaining to nature".

There's a word for in the English language "as pertaining to nature": natural.

The problem I think you're alluding to, is that Godel's incompleteness theorems point out that given any definition, you're bound to find things that are contradictory, such as material things that are not detected & proved to exist materially, and the same goes for physical things, that only make sense once you expand your previous definitions.

As long as you are a materialist, it's usually only a matter of time until scientists make discoveries of non-material things using material things.

As long as you are a physicalist, it's usually only a matter of time until scientists make discoveries of non-physical things using physics.

 

[computerhxr]

It depends on how you reduce information. If you divide the system into two parts, then one gives the other its value and defines its properties. The fixed or immutable properties and the mutable. Where you draw the divide is a matter of perspective.

For example, you can say that a ball floating on water is fixed, and the water is mutable. From another perspective, the ball can be changed and then you can draw a line and say that atoms are fixed. You can continue and say that atoms are mutable and that particles are fixed. This goes on indefinitely, beyond measure. What is beyond measure is then outside the domain of what is encapsulated by science.

If you think of it as a light switch, in a binary system, you have on and off. However, this is not true, there is a state in-between where it is not completely on or completely off. This 3rd state is the domain of the spirit.

What is measurable through science is limited to the first two, fixed and mutable, because we can observe them. However, in order for them to exist, it necessitates a mutable system that is beyond measure. This is what we call spirit, and it operates outside of the domain of science.

Think of the observable universe being a ball suspended in water. The entire observable universe can move with the current, and the contents while affected would not have a measurable connection to the outside world. Like tossing a ball in the air inside of a moving vehicle, it would maintain the velocity and appear to be the same as tossing it from a vehicle at rest. However, if the vehicle is moving past a massive object, then there would be some difference due to gravity. If the observable universe moves past a massive object, then there would be an affect but our observation would be attributed to a local cause due to the limited perspective of science.

 

[sushi]

to clarify myself I am just arguing that there are things beyond matter and physical that affect this universe.

to reduce everything to matter and physical doesnt seem to complete the picture.

energy is already an example of this

 

[computerhxr]

to clarify myself I am just arguing that there are things beyond matter and physical that affect this universe.

to reduce everything to matter and physical doesnt seem to complete the picture.

energy is already an example of this

If it affects the universe, then what you are calling matter and physical are a medium.

 

[BurnedOut]

Consider the arguments provided by Determinism or Randomness proponents. The concept of soul does not make sense in either cases. Either all of our actions are mere random frames in successions or we are a mathematical process towards completion. Soul is rather a subjective phenomenon. Consciousness is a byproduct of metacognition which in turn arrives by the process of proprioception.

 

[sushi]

Consider the arguments provided by Determinism or Randomness proponents. The concept of soul does not make sense in either cases. Either all of our actions are mere random frames in successions or we are a mathematical process towards completion. Soul is rather a subjective phenomenon. Consciousness is a byproduct of metacognition which in turn arrives by the process of proprioception.

soul is just a way to distinguish living and non living things

a thing is souless if it is non living

science has reduced even human and life to pure matter and material.