INTP's shouldn't try to help people

[Architect]

Dad loves to stick to the same damn routine every single day. Not one iota of difference ... Otherwise his views on life have remained static.

I keep very regular habits, a trait common for people with creative lives (automate the quotidian). But I have a variety of views and discuss almost anything. Actually to be clear I'm fed up really with the ES types, not the IS. One of my best friends is an IS (ISFP), they're mostly OK, but I've had so many ES's in my life I'm just sick of them. By definition they won't get out of your face, or just shut up for a few minutes.

I am curious though, aren't there other INTP software engineers who work with you?There must be a ton of them ... I hear our type is very common in Silicon Valley.

Yes, my other best friend is an INTP engineer, and that relationship has its issues too. I didn't say INTP's are ideal either! The problem being the same ones I have. He's a fickle friend and has peculiarities. For example he won't preplan any event. It has to be spontaneous. Last minute "let's go out for a beer". And those are fairly rare. Also he has the annoying habit of doing all the talking. He likes to use me as his sounding board (sound familiar?), meaning he doesn't listen to my theories.

And INTP's still aren't that common. A study was done, while INTP's are some 3% in the population, they're 10% in software engineering (IIRC the number). Much more common, but that still means the majority of people around here are ISTJ's and ISTP's.

 

[redbaron]

I didn't say they're subject to a Markov property - I'm not even sure what that means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markov_property

You can't use the Markov model to model something that doesn't have the Markov property (is memory-less). Is type and behaviour memory-less? Arguable.

I'm saying that I believe the process of discerning type is similar to using a Markov model to discern hidden variables.

That's really not what you said at all. If it's what you meant you really worded it poorly.

We can observe output (behavior) which correlates in a non 1-1 manner to state. We don't have the observational methods to actually do a HMM on a persons type (in the future computers will be able to do this to determine type) but in theory we could.

You actually did say that we can theoretically apply an HMM model to someone's behaviour to determine type and that with the right technology we could actually do it via computer.

It's hardly wishful thinking but simply an analogy. Going farther and saying it's actually stochastic process is an even bigger leap that I'm not even close to.

A Markov model is a stochastic process...

Trying to discern type through the use of behaviour by using an HMM requires the assumption that behaviour/type are a Markov process in the first place. If they're a Markov process, they're stochastic in nature.

The only leap here is you when you talk about applying doing behavioural analysis using an HMM, which inherently implies that it's a stochastic process.

Don't selectively choose what you're going to apply to your 'theory' of type and then try and imply that I'm the one making a leap in calling behaviour a complicated process that's contextually stochastic. Not inherently stochastic as you're assuming if you're going to apply an HMM.

But never mind, what you really mean is that it's like using a HMM right? It really isn't like that at all unless you assume Type is a much more concrete thing than what it really is (which you do).

 

[Architect]

OK that's fine, but you're getting way more specific with it than I am (you're in Ti mode while I'm in Ne here). I'd prefer using the terms "hidden variables" but that has other meanings that don't seem to apply. A Kalman filter is another idea which appeals to me here, but again it doesn't quite fit as that is more for noisy signals.

The point is that there is a hidden thing called Type that we're trying to discern though behaviors, which are motivated by the type but not the type itself. Obviously this isn't rigorous, but to me at least is useful to separate out the concepts I think play out in the psyche.

 

[Idunno]

too personal to make any deductions. What point are u trying to make? that intps should just stop trying to help people because you cant?

sure intx can have a harder time than most
perhaps because most people are F's and thats not what they are looking for, even though they don't know it. Maybe the correct answer to other humans isnt necessarily THE correct answer.
INFJ's have a high tendency to be counsellors
INTJ's as physicians
Both help people but require different characteristics as a professional meet that goal: which is to help people.

sounds like a personal rant to let off some steam to me?

can it be that you only see yourself frustrated when helping certain types of people?
Scenario 1: someone asks u a certain thing, you give them what you think would be considered good advice. Done. this can be as minimalisitic as replying to a forum post or whatever that you dont even make the conscious decision that it was considered helping someone
Scenario 2: this person is in dire need of help, but you have trouble making out they really want. You, as an INTP Ti kicks in and wants to do whatever it can to understand the situation and find the core principle to solving that problem, but its so focused on Ti matters, that it doesnt know it wants a Fi or Fe response. Thus frustration.

The problems that f**k with u tend to stick longer and stronger than small things you dont notice. natural human behavior

Just throwing some random scenarios that might be the problem

idunno

 

[Idunno]

ask your wife

Helping is not when you support someone in something what you think is good.
In definition it means to support other thoughts, not yours. If you think someone do something wrong and try to make someone to do something, what you think is good is not helping, but manipulation. I know something about it ;D

True help is always selfless.

Pessimists can't help people.
To help means to give energy to realize goals.
Only optimists, who believe someone will succed can support. Pessimists see everywhere problems and say that something what succed, then they discourage.

Everyone what something different, you can't know what is good or bad for someone.

Sometimes I think to best help is to do nothing. People need understand something, not hear advice which they don't understand, it goes nowhere. Let them fail. Let them learn.

id have to disagree completely with ur statement, if anything pessimists are the best at helping people.
If you habitually form ur mind to be an optimist and see all the good and forget the bad, when the bad comes ur struck blind-sided.
If your a pessimist, and take on the approach to help you already know the bad, because you were so focused on the bad in the past, understanding the bad is second nature to you, the cause will come to you in a second. The first step in fixing a problem.

Its not optimal to think that its best to do nothing. I think its smarter to help when you truly believe help is needed. Is this person even worth it? This can however only come from experience.

 

[Inquisitor]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/how-do-life/201502/your-dark-side-s-upside

The author of this article, Marty Nemko, a f*cking awesome career counselor, is one I have been following for quite some time...I identify with his view of the world so strongly, I would be very surprised if he is not an INTP as well. I have learned a great deal about him through his writing, and many other things as well about life, society, work, investing, etc. I know his writing has helped me, it might do the same for you...and here I am giving "helpful" advice...damn you Fe! Why won't you STFU?!

Seriously though, regarding the OP, my point is that sometimes, it's actually best to let people stew in their negativity, and by helping them you might actually be doing them a disservice. If they're not dissatisfied with life, why would they change?

Unfortunately, Nemko is not a believer in MBTI, citing unreliability. Objectively he's right, but I'm not sure how deeply he has delved into the functional stack...

 

[Idunno]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/how-do-life/201502/your-dark-side-s-upside

The author of this article, Marty Nemko, a f*cking awesome career counselor, is one I have been following for quite some time...I identify with his view of the world so strongly, I would be very surprised if he is not an INTP as well. I have learned a great deal about him through his writing, and many other things as well about life, society, work, investing, etc. I know his writing has helped me, it might do the same for you...and here I am giving "helpful" advice...damn you Fe! Why won't you STFU?!

Seriously though, regarding the OP, my point is that sometimes, it's actually best to let people stew in their negativity, and by helping them you might actually be doing them a disservice. If they're not dissatisfied with life, why would they change?

Unfortunately, Nemko is not a believer in MBTI, citing unreliability. Objectively he's right, but I'm not sure how deeply he has delved into the functional stack...

interesting. as a self typed INTJ, could it be that when i fall under the same conditions it is just a natural response of Fi in order to complete the desired goal? maybe even too much to an extreme...

Its too early to make a decision but very interesting though nonetheless.

"you’re more likely to be successful and feel good about yourself if you, when appropriate, invoke less societally encouraged behaviors"

Wow, to make this claim when it is perceived that
"America rewards optimism, cheeriness, and moderation."
is a big one.

America is just a huge commercial factory, with sensor survivalists. The country appreciates what is can do to continue functionally running, and forgets the innovation of new ideas or the action to new heights. It has found ways to fix everything, in order to be happy. It doesn't care how, it only cares for results.

The DSM is a book of descriptions on mental disorders that lists the symptoms classified by many doctors. It is a simple way of diagnosis and that is it. Diagnose and move on. Keep the wheels running. I am overgeneralizing the situation as a whole but i think the quote
“The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.”
can serve some purpose here to further reinforce my claim.

just some food for thought

idunno

 

[Vion]

When people set you up to do the impossible and/or fail... you have to make it totally epic beyond all conceivable measure. And in that sole instance of awe they have no damn clue what they were just doing, but they now doubt everything they ever knew to be true.

http://failblog.cheezburger.com/

 

[Idunno]

When people set you up to do the impossible and/or fail... you have to make it totally epic beyond all conceivable measure. And in that sole instance of awe they have no damn clue what they were just doing, but they now doubt everything they ever knew to be true.

http://failblog.cheezburger.com/

hypothetically, if you purposely raised a child to fail, when all it wanted to succeed. what would happen

 

[Inquisitor]

interesting. as a self typed INTJ, could it be that when i fall under the same conditions it is just a natural response of Fi in order to complete the desired goal? maybe even too much to an extreme...

Its too early to make a decision but very interesting though nonetheless.

Don't know enough about Fi to comment about this...but it seems like Nemko was making a more universal statement about how a negative emotion can be much more motivating than a positive one. I think this applies to everyone.

"you’re more likely to be successful and feel good about yourself if you, when appropriate, invoke less societally encouraged behaviors"

Wow, to make this claim when it is perceived that
"America rewards optimism, cheeriness, and moderation."
is a big one.

It's certainly counter-intuitive in a way, but I have found that this is for the most part true in this country. Let's say you go to a party or gathering and someone asks you "Hey how are you?" if someone is actually pissed off/sad/depressed/upset/miserable, they will never say it. Their stock response will always be "Great/good/can't complain/fine/doing well, etc." If they actually did speak their minds, the other person would most likely not be comfortable with that.

I think the author was just saying that if you're fat and feel shitty about your appearance, it's better to look at yourself in the mirror and invoke some anger than to repeat the "I am beautiful and sexy" mantra 10 times. The former will actually get you off your ass and into the gym...the latter probably won't.

America is just a huge commercial factory, with sensor survivalists. The country appreciates what is can do to continue functionally running, and forgets the innovation of new ideas or the action to new heights. It has found ways to fix everything, in order to be happy. It doesn't care how, it only cares for results.

The DSM is a book of descriptions on mental disorders that lists the symptoms classified by many doctors. It is a simple way of diagnosis and that is it. Diagnose and move on. Keep the wheels running. I am overgeneralizing the situation as a whole but i think the quote
“The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.”
can serve some purpose here to further reinforce my claim.

just some food for thought

idunno

Hmm... I think the DSM keeps getting expanded so shrinks can keep charging more money. Without an actual diagnosis, people are less likely to give you repeat business. Plus you can't give someone pills unless there's a legitimate psychiatric condition, and the DSM legitimizes an awful lot of things...But yeah...in a lot of areas, innovation is not a priority.

 

[RandomGeneratedName]

Well I'm about to post something for INTPs, which no doubt is going to be viewed as too much.

I realise now i'm an INFP (developed T via savagely suppressing my Fi)

I've only been here 2weeks~, so i'm used to talking/frustratingly trying to express complex ideas to simple minded people (ie "those that suck"). So I hope, INTPs don't take my communication "style" as an indication of my ability and write it off straight away.

Let's see how INTPs receive an INFP who is being serious, trying to communicate important ideas.
I will be saddened if INTPs "don't understand what he's saying", because I know INTPs have been through the same thing. If I can understand what you guys and girls share (albeit I need to concentrate a little harder), I'd hope you'd take that on board as something worth of note.

Once again RandomGeneratedName has had no sleep.
Hopefully that'll ease up as I integrate my Fi.

 

[Relic]

I didn't read all the posts because I really didn't care to so I read the original post and then decided to post my reply to your original thought.

First off I can level with you to some extent on people don't appreciate INTP thought. For example when I was in highschool everyone hated me (didn't know this until about 3 years out of highschool) because every time I would hear someone's idea I would tell them why it wouldn't work. I wasnt being malicious I just was being honest and helpful. (In my own mind I thought) however as I got out of highschool and into college and the real world I found that there are many many people in the world who do appreciate my perspective as an intp and see that as help. Perhaps what you need to learn as you said is how to present your idea properly. Example:
someone messes up at work. As an intp my first reaction is to say "You done screwed up the whole damn thing now son!!" I'm not being mean I'm jusy being honest, however we both know people don't like this and will take this offensively. So since you know that people's feelings are there just learn to adapt your idea in a way that they will accept. instead of telling someone they screwed up the way I state before say something like "Your work left much to be desired but it's ok, here is how we should do it differently" (While smiling) This is extremely difficult I know, but if you are really concerned with helping people you need to adapt the way you present your idea differently. Don't present your idea, be a showman and sell your idea! If you want to learn how to do this, watch NF and SF types. They will teach you all you need to know about how to interact with people! There are people who want your help, you just have to find them! Good luck

 

[thompinoo]

I don't offer a lot of advice. I sit in the background and quietly observe, picking up on the errors that others make. I learned a long time ago that most people don't like to be told the truth when they are not doing something efficiently or effectively, so most of the time I just take notes and store it away.

Several times, I have had bosses who have been absolutely clueless about how to run things, and I haven't said anything. Eventually they have left the position or stepped down and I have been there to step up into their place, at which time I have completely transformed the systems, which has upset them because they can't see why I wouldn't just do things their way. This has actually happened in three different positions (and I am currently working in a similar situation).

I don't offer advice; I just wait until I get my opportunity (or rather, the opportunity presents itself to me; I shouldn't make it sound as though I am purposefully plotting away because it really is more the product of being in the right place at the right time).

In terms of personal problems, I am surrounded by people who have them, but I practice the same restraint. People don't like to be told that they are doing things badly, and I don't like upsetting others (it means that I then have to spend time smoothing things over when I could have just shut up in the first place and had more time to myself), so I stay silent.

 

[Latte]

Frame
Sometimes when I am the listener to someone's troubles, I ask them more and more about the external and internal circumstances they are dealing with until I can deduce what seems to be the least bad option(s) and make sure to enable them to see the same I see through further questions if necessary, and sometimes make them commit to the solution through making them conclude that there's no other good way.

Supplementary
Interwoven into this is making sure to address the person's needs for feeling understood and sympathized with, or the person's need for being told they are a giant faget (no homopho). The mixture and nature of this kind of emotional and personal effort depends on the person and circumstances.

Supplementary
Sometimes direct assertions are made to make the person feel something they try to avoid feeling, but which they should feel. This can be risky and is used with caution.

That is the best case scenario though. Reality can quickly get messy.

In essence, I try to order and guide their introspective process, on the way we are both discovering what may be their ideal path for striding into the future, and then there are additional tools for addressing blockages or aiding the person to get into the right state of mind for moving "forwards" (that is, where I suspect the conversation should be going).

Main tool being a non-confrontational usage of Ti, outsourcing the scaffolding of the investigative process from them to oneself in the construction of a clearer vista of understanding that enables (hopefully good) choices to be more easily made, with material and work largely consisting of their own guided attempts at self-understanding.

 

[del]

And INTP's still aren't that common. A study was done, while INTP's are some 3% in the population, they're 10% in software engineering (IIRC the number). Much more common, but that still means the majority of people around here are ISTJ's and ISTP's.

How is it that there are so many STs in engineering? My office is mostly STs. My immediate boss is an ISTJ. And I'll admit, probably a majority of the conflicts are caused by the N/S divide.

Today a supervisor criticized something I worked on and said it "looked stupid" to him. He was literally just talking about how the plan was drawn, nothing else. Text justification, alignment, etc. The design was completely functional and worked. My attitude is: as long as it is electrically correct, the circuits could be drawn into a smiley face for all I care. Go bother the CAD tech ffs.

 

[Reluctantly]

^ Regardless of type, engineering seems to attract people that are highly detail oriented. I actually think it helps though because it leads to making less engineering mistakes. Course, the downside is a lack of creative thinking; guess it depends which one the business values more.

 

[Architect]

How is it that there are so many STs in engineering? My office is mostly STs. My immediate boss is an ISTJ. And I'll admit, probably a majority of the conflicts are caused by the N/S divide.

Yup, sounds familiar. I've got plenty of stories. The S types are good people, but I have to remind myself not to get pissed off. Team meetings could be for talking about ideas and future directions, but instead are spent grinding through quotidian details. They love that.

^ Regardless of type, engineering seems to attract people that are highly detail oriented. I actually think it helps though because it leads to making less engineering mistakes. Course, the downside is a lack of creative thinking; guess it depends which one the business values more.

My boss, an enlightened ESFP, will tell you that you need a mixture of people in your team. And he's right. He's not approaching it from an MBTI standpoint though he's roughly familiar with the theory, he just knows you need a couple of wild haired scientists (N's), a bunch of detailed oriented high achiever doers (ISTJ's mostly), and a couple lower talented support and other people too (mixture).

If you find a team with such a mindset it's a great place for an INTP. I'm the crazy haired genius, and the rest are mostly ISTJ who carry the project forward. They get all the nasty little projects (from my standpoint), while I get to work on the projects that marketing hardly understands. Nobody really knows what I'm doing most of the time. As he says "Well, nobody's telling me to have you not work on these things yet", so I come out with innovative left field stuff.

Many sites say that an INTP should be paired with say an ISTJ to capture and implement the ideas. Which is true ideally, but in practice seems impossible to pull off due to personality differences and other factors.

 

[Oddity]

Perhaps try to fake Te

You think that Te could possibly help the OP? Given that his problem is "people need the language of feeling, not information"...