I was totally wrong about my type

[fluffy]

I am not the person who looks for all the ways things could be. I am not completely rational and I am not as cooperative as I could be.

I believe that I am INTJ

The stereotype is a heartless mastermind calculating all ways to achieve a goal. But that is not the way it is. Not absolutely.

I believe that INTJ can have great empathy. They keep distant because trust is harder when they know the way people are.

I love my dog and my niece, I help people.

Yet others are not as empathetic.

So there is a barrier.

The way INTJ are has two sides. One they want to create something, achieve something. That is we want to understand and be component in whatever purpose we set for ourselves. Second we need others to understand us but this is rare. This makes us sad and or angry. It is isolating. We would prefer to do things with others if they were capable of knowing us.

The INTJ as a female is not really a tough bad ass. This is another stereotype. She is moreso a person who looks at the future and has hope of making it real. She is happy to find someone like herself. A wish that together they can do the impossible.

It is also not true that all INTJ are super intelligent. They may have trouble getting what they want and feel like they've failed many times. But they can keep going because they know what can be done. No single path is outside the reach of it. And they want to do it for themselves even if others have been there. It is having the personal ability that matters. That they learned to do it by themselves.

INTJ are the most rare so it is understandable they are mistaken for what they are not. They have a heart and carry hopes and dreams. It is to be experienced at what they can do and be loved for it, for who they are. Like everyone this is where the empathy comes from. The feminine is particularly part of it for that gender of them. Knowing others need kindness and care along with this energy's aura. INTJ are not just power projecting.

I believe that after I had my moment of feeling my emotional state that I have gained a great amount of personal growth. This has changed my perspective and what type I believe I am. People can confuse type for identity but this is a fraction of who we are. We can be more as we get older and individuate. Thank you for reading this.

 

[Hadoblado]

What makes you an INTJ?

You wrote a lot about how actually it's possible to not meet the sterotype, but didn't write much about how it's the best fit for you.

 

[fluffy]

What makes you an INTJ?

You wrote a lot about how actually it's possible to not meet the sterotype, but didn't write much about how it's the best fit for you.

I seek competency in myself directed at my life goals. Now there are many factors to being INTJ but I think that it came to me when revisiting types in my other thread. The recombination I made between MBTI and Socionics.

Ego
Ni Te best at future projections of experience

Persona
Se Fi presents awareness impacting ones feelings

Anima
Ti Ne wants rational possibilities

Id
Fe Si imposes cooperation by embodiment

Ni in ego is also insightful and Te is not just experience but understanding operations in the real world - In school I always had projects going on, I had planned to make a.i. and keep it in mind with everything I do.

The persona is how I naturally act around others with energy and stimuli of intensity of feeling. I need to be comfortable though. If I sense any rejection I clam up fast. Because of depression I wasn't able to be this way a long time.

The Anima is part of the unconscious. I realize it through the Ni function when I make my arguments in real time. I can instantly tell if people have become unreasonable and quickly resolve it in my head but responding without knowing consciously how I did it.

The id comes out when all resolve has been lost. If not in dangerous situation I simply shut down but it is that I can take out any threat if necessary. I have been in life threatening situations before and came out of them either by force or direct command to the persons involved. I know what's most important and ACT with no hesitation in combat alone or in a group. It is instinctual.

The opposite case may be that I am INTP but I don't lay out arguments as eloquently as rationally as thought out and logically. My emotions get in the way and I seen how perfectly stable and mature thoughts can be coming from Ti individuals. I put things within my experience and insight that is odd and not well formulated with adequate deductions. I flow differently from that way.

I know that it's not well organized but I believe my model would work if fleshed out properly. Applied to myself I think this is what the best correspondent to the mind of an INTJ is

 

[EndogenousRebel]

Thinking Styles Inventory

Since there is a craving for classifying quality of thought, I'm going to say fuck you and say we classify nature of thought. More details on the test here including the guy who conceived it. Best link to PDF, has to be done manual. Idk do it in paint? Found this test on this talk where a...

www.intpforum.com

I liked the the concepts the CIA apparently uses to classify "thinking styles".

IIRC

There are sequential thinkers and non-sequential thinkers.

And abstract/theoretical thinkers vs concrete/practical thinkers.

I don't think INTP captures what you are trying to get at as well as that thinking style framework.

I would assume that mbti is a consequence of thinking styles.

So I'm not sure you could measure that unless you went through a lot of effort.

Stereotypically, it's safe to assume that n and p types both are concerned with abstract thinking. With the inverse being true for s and j types

We could pontificate about this all day but again there's not much foundation to really say anything worth saying.

I mean I think it speaks to the only value the mbti actually has, and that is that you could probably integrate it with a lot of other frameworks and models of cognition.

Oppose to something like astrology.

 

[fractalwalrus]

Thinking Styles Inventory

Since there is a craving for classifying quality of thought, I'm going to say fuck you and say we classify nature of thought. More details on the test here including the guy who conceived it. Best link to PDF, has to be done manual. Idk do it in paint? Found this test on this talk where a...

www.intpforum.com

I liked the the concepts the CIA apparently uses to classify "thinking styles".

IIRC

There are sequential thinkers and non-sequential thinkers.

And abstract/theoretical thinkers vs concrete/practical thinkers.

I don't think INTP captures what you are trying to get at as well as that thinking style framework.

I would assume that mbti is a consequence of thinking styles.

So I'm not sure you could measure that unless you went through a lot of effort.

Stereotypically, it's safe to assume that n and p types both are concerned with abstract thinking. With the inverse being true for s and j types

We could pontificate about this all day but again there's not much foundation to really say anything worth saying.

I mean I think it speaks to the only value the mbti actually has, and that is that you could probably integrate it with a lot of other frameworks and models of cognition.

Oppose to something like astrology.

Careful about that agency, they glow in the dark.

Thinking styles flow in the dark, my dude (or chick, or something else).

 

[fluffy]

"Measurement"

This seems to be a barrier in the conception that Jungian type is possible.

The same as when people rejected the conception that the unconscious exists.

Ni is close to the unconscious, in fact it is a conduit or medium of it. People unaware of it hold fast to some beliefs absolutely especially if it is immaturely developed: "The zombies will attack, I saw it in my dream".

In the relationship to time, people work in static or predictive modes. Making a chair with your hands or designing. Vs. anticipation of what to do next and or the perception of what will happen next. Non predictive mode simply aligns with the stimuli as is. In the body or exterior.

The way people are whether it is in their actions or their observations, they being passive / active, to lay out a formulaic system of them requires some understanding of internal processes. If you don't believe they exist (behaviorism) half the categorical structures will be missed. What is happening in a person from their point of view is subjective but not impossible to know. It is in description that is where the communication may or may not be effective. The right words to use.

Thinking is not the only way of subjective experiences. Not just external impression into the subject. Attachment and detachment can be where feelings reside and ideas can be rationally understood or irrationally understandable. Words cannot be used to explain music or art but they both are understandable via a totality of the whole. So we can be emotional about them or feel nothing. We can have ideas without any details but have them appear fully formed from the inside of the unconscious that may be indescribable. Feel good or bad or anything about these ideas. These are real subjective experiences, they do happen so must be part of psychology categorization.

My point is that we have trouble conceptually with others subject modes of being. We think in halfway categorical frames. Subjective experiences can only be this way or that way depending on what is dominant in us. Or it doesn't exist at all for some people, everything in their minds are completely externalized therefore if you see it differently you are wrong and stupid. Some people do nothing but observe people, these people watchers know people in ways they don't know themselves.

The word "application" also has a connotation to it, no use means it's not real. I can say that's not true. Not understanding is not ground for dismissal, it means you are ingnorant. Some science requires more intelligence than people have time to check their bias and limitations at the door. We must understand there are ways of seeing the world that have the same validity but our access is confined by our imagination Einstein said.

 

[fluffy]

I would say that Ti Fe types have greater detachment than Te Fi types because internal thinking requires observations to not disturb them thus they don't seek external control. Where external thinking needs control of the outside not to be disturbed.

That is why it was said that thinking requires emotions, because actions are emotional. But Ti has no actions to take, so they can think about things that may make others uncomfortable and block them out. Ti being detached then has more energy to think given mistakes don't matter as much. Fi drive the actions of extraverted thinking by making the energy a matter of importance. Fe can find things important but not increase the emotional state. It is chillax. Not trying to get anywhere.

 

[Hadoblado]

I guess I just don't see any relationship between how you present and either the INTJ profile or functions.

You obsess over specific topics. You currently conceptualise this as being goal oriented, but that seems off to me.

You have your share of complaints and frustrations that you've shared on this forum. Overcoming these difficulties would be the INTJ's most immediate goal. Instead, you distract yourself with intellectualisation of futurism and intelligence which TMK has done nothing to further your current situation.

I can't really imagine a world in which a real INTJ confuses themselves for all the things you've categorised yourself as over the years. I'm pretty sure at one point you thought you were INFP. INTJ's don't wake up in the morning thinking they're INFP.

 

[fluffy]

I guess I just don't see any relationship between how you present and either the INTJ profile or functions.

Hm, what do you view as INTJ functions presenting themselves as?

You obsess over specific topics. You currently conceptualise this as being goal oriented, but that seems off to me.

I find that when one loses life purpose they don't display much goals orientation either.

I did say that I had depression and that I have failed many times in life.

You have your share of complaints and frustrations that you've shared on this forum. Overcoming these difficulties would be the INTJ's most immediate goal. Instead, you distract yourself with intellectualisation of futurism and intelligence which TMK has done nothing to further your current situation.

It is way more complicated than you are presenting it. I said I was not a super genius. I cannot miraculously cure depression and give myself a reason to exist.

I believe that I've done well so far given those obstacles.

I can't really imagine a world in which a real INTJ confuses themselves for all the things you've categorised yourself as over the years. I'm pretty sure at one point you thought you were INFP. INTJ's don't wake up in the morning thinking they're INFP.

All types have multiple levels to themselves. They are all people and under stress and under mental illness they can be confused. A persons type does not go away just because of those circumstances / conditions. It is not as if I had all the information on the subject that I needed, I had to figure it out. Besides, I was not holding any one type to be my identity. I was approaching it as a reasonable consideration each time. Sure why not an INTJ thinking they are INFP. That makes sense when that person has feminine qualities. It's not like all INTJ are evil now is it.

My attempt at showing why these stereotypes about INTJ are wrong is to bring greater clarity on myself. It is not to offend anyone, what they think, because it takes years and years to understand. I have been processing things for a long time now. Trying to be objective even when upset.

Early in life I saw that existence had barriers to them. Emotional, physical, social. I did not want to be immoral. I had to get things the correct way. There wasn't room to manipulate people. I had to be a good person.

I was called autistic for many years because I was depressed. No proof, scientific or diagnostic says I am. I had no money and I was not capable of school, so I had to research on my own. In the condition I was in. When I had to help relative's and other relations. I was immature at taking care of myself, all I wanted was to not be alone and staring at the wall.

Things have changed.

I am old enough to understand people and not have to react to them. That was why I avoided them. I can feel things as I was numb many years. I am getting things resolved. Life will be better. I will not fail as much. I learned what I needed to learn from being stuck.

 

[Hadoblado]

Sorry, I didn't mean to attack your competence or anything like that.

I see INTJs as having a strong grasp on their worldview (Ni) which informs the vector of their engagement (Te). I don't see you as having a fixed worldview, you are just engaged by what you find interesting. You tinker with ideas, you don't weaponise them.

 

[Puffy]

It's possible that you are INTJ, AK. I think it's fair to say that you have had a lot of barriers to overcome to come into yourself more, which I feel you are doing marvellously at the moment. So who you were years ago might not be a reflection of your true self.

I guess the question I would ask is, does it matter if you're INTJ or INFP? Whether MBTI is legit or not aside, I don't think these labels determine people's perceptions of you much. If you say you're INTJ on a dating profile maybe that might form an initial impression of you, but for someone who gets to know you a little it doesn't play much into someone's perception of you.

If it's about self-identity, I'd be more interested in hearing who you are. Maybe you saying you're INTJ is a part of that. Like, this is who I am, this is what I'm like, these are my values, these are my goals, these are my preferences /needs /boundaries. Discover and own a stable sense of self but don't be limited in trying to box yourself into an MBTI category, you're more than that.

 

[fluffy]

Sorry, I didn't mean to attack your competence or anything like that.

I see INTJs as having a strong grasp on their worldview (Ni) which informs the vector of their engagement (Te). I don't see you as having a fixed worldview, you are just engaged by what you find interesting. You tinker with ideas, you don't weaponise them.

That is a good way to look at it.

Normally I do know what is the truth of the matter, I do know what is important.

One description I got for the INTJ is that of a wizard. Their world view is so vast you cannot see but small glimpses of it in their work as it is reflected from a great multidimensional understanding. It can be weaponized but usually that doesn't bring more understanding of reality. Nor will it bring a satisfactory feeling.

I get that those drawn to this type as themselves see it as being powerful. But then power is a-moral. The task at hand is to use it where and when needed not just to ones own ends. I had a plan in 2007 that may be possible soon. Only I had to wait for technology to become powerful enough. The book from 2005 is on my desk. I have 97% of the information in my notes that were not lost.

 

[fluffy]

It's possible that you are INTJ, AK. I think it's fair to say that you have had a lot of barriers to overcome to come into yourself more, which I feel you are doing marvellously at the moment. So who you were years ago might not be a reflection of your true self.

It is possible to see type different when older. To see healthy vs unhealthy aperture of each type as they develop.

I guess the question I would ask is, does it matter if you're INTJ or INFP? Whether MBTI is legit or not aside, I don't think these labels determine people's perceptions of you much. If you say you're INTJ on a dating profile maybe that might form an initial impression of you, but for someone who gets to know you a little it doesn't play much into someone's perception of you.

It only matters to me because it is something to understand. I don't much care about telling everyone I am this or that because nobody would listen unless interested. I recognize if people are those whom I can share with and not broadcast it to everyone as I might be wrong. I am not looking to be perceived as what people think an INTJ is in the media.

If it's about self-identity, I'd be more interested in hearing who you are. Maybe you saying you're INTJ is a part of that. Like, this is who I am, this is what I'm like, these are my values, these are my goals, these are my preferences /needs /boundaries. Discover and own a stable sense of self but don't be limited in trying to box yourself into an MBTI category, you're more than that.

I agree, a box really is about self perception than what Jungian type is. So a person like me coming to it can think they are one or another not fully getting it. They then can identify with what might be inaccurate.

Like how I learned that tests don't matter. Intelligence tests can go up or down 10 points making them useless. You height can go up or down 10 centimeters would be a terrible measurement of height. But then we do have an exact height, we do have an exact relative intelligence to others and type is about energy flow in opposite direction from other types. Knowing where the energy goes wasn't told to me, these tests don't understand it at all. I know brainwave mathematics has advanced alot. It will be one of the things I will work on in the future.

Myself I find that I think of who I am in relation to my ability to complete tasks I want to do. Other people are people persons so they like being around them. I am fine with others as long as I haven't got real problems to solve. Then it gets complicated. As I see it not all people want to cooperate. And if not the problem doesn't get solved. I usually know what needs to be done, I just need more people experience. Plus I understand not all problems need to be solved, if people want to fail I let them fail, not much can be done. I cannot make others listen if they don't want to.

 

[fluffy]

One thing I have noticed is that Ni is definitely the main part of my psyche.

Te may be secondary but it is also limited by reality constraints. That is to say it's often confusing why a Te person would not follow up on some goals and not others. For one this assumes Te wants are not prioritized. That INTJ will just do whatever the fuck they want, get what they want regardless of consequences. It takes away the agency of of the type to reflect on what's most important to them. And it's not even what Te is doing.

Te is assessing the environment. Where it's actually Fi that determines the goal. So maybe world domination is not what INTJ finds important. Te rather in just inferring every way in which some objective can be worked around. What's possible and impossible in the given circumstances. Strategy is not based only on the goal then but constraints.

Yet any Te type can do so. What makes INTJ different? It's how Ni gives them the ability to note what might be hidden causalities. Looking at my air-conditioning unit I must infer how it works if I never seen it before. What it's connected to and the process these parts all play in doing the job of making the air cold. It's like a vast network. Not exactly like INTP because I only care about this one unit if I wanted to use it for a purpose. I would not spend time on understanding it unless I had to know. Maybe it broke down and I have to find the cause. This can be because of my interest in Air compressor science but more so the why I need cold air is to feel ok

INTJ spend time on their projects not making maps of the possibilities that extend in all directions. What do I need to know not what everything is.

This isn't to say INTJ don't make maps. But a reason exists that not about exploring novelty but having a guild that can be used as a tool instead of just documentation categorization.

Ni then realize the missing parts.

A contingency is set up.

Critical Failures are avoided.

But its only if the goal has meaning.

Sometimes even with tremendous effort the INTJ doesn't have a goal in mind. It could be they go existential and ask why life is supposed to be about. This is meta in the sense that Ni always knew something was missing. What is the point of it all?

In the beginning INTJ have fixed goals they work on that are most important to them. As they get older sometimes they achieve the goal but have no idea what to do next.

I came to this point earlier in my life. Searching for hidden meaning to reality. I asks what do I really want? It was hard to think about.

I am not that high in intelligence that matters to getting what I want, that is to say I may have ADHD preventing me from working on goals that require high ability. I focused more so on the Te assessment of things. Which is not the same as intelligence. Most of my goals require getting help from more intelligent organizations.

Right now I am in the in-between space of life. I want to accumulate resources to do future projects. This will require keeping within my physical limitations. I don't want to be hot so I did what I could to get an temporary air conditioner. But I need to fix the main house unit and it needs to be professional as the money wasted by experimenting is too much for me to afford no food. That's the problem is that people don't understand consequences. To get what you want requires long waiting periods and making sure you don't overheat and starve to death. Happy go luck people don't understand when your poor you don't waste resources on dumb shit. Not everything magical appears from thin air.

So I guess that doing things that last long term I know what to do. I simply need things to do in the mean time that won't physically hurt me and help me not be board. Sunburn is stupid, why do this to yourself when you don't have to? I have to make sure everything works. The right way is always the way that you don't hurt yourself when simpler methods exist. I don't do anything the wrong way, the way that failed because of impulsivity. The everything has to happen right now mentally is detrimental to everyone involved. You don't experiment on the mission critical equipment or you die of heatstroke.

 

[ZenRaiden]

To me Extravert thinking is where someone looks at something, and finds the easiest and fastest way to manipulate the world to their goal intraverted feeling ergo value system.
Intraverted intuition is primary mode of thinking so its automatic and hardest to see sometimes, because most of it is unconscious. Its kind of counter intuitive, because primary function is also most conscious one, but intraverted version of it means it works in mysterious ways, but it always works.
Intuitive patterns thus are established outside of conscious mind, they are vast and complex and create a framework.

Te is executive and action oriented and discerning, while Ti is observing, framework that is prolific, but also more logical consistent.

For example Te can move on from object to object even if things are less consistent, for Ti people moving on when things are not consistent is hard.

Ne looks at the world of objects and wants a system of things that are connected like a web a model where everything fits in to grand scheme of things.

Ni carves out a specific vision even at the expense of things that would be interesting to Ne.


The way I approached typing myself was of "What type would have greatest utility for me if I had typed this way" ego would its description fit me.

I had a recent crisis as well, but then I decided that I am still INTP>
key point here is that whatever type you are should reflect the way you normally operate, not just marginal features of the way you operate.

So for example INTPs are often performance obsessed, which runs seemingly counter to what people think of INTPs... but INTPs are the types that low to test performance of something against reality.

INTJs would be the types that want the thing to perform as well, but they would be fixated more on the outcome not just performance for sake of performance.

 

[nobody]

imo, you are either INTP or INTJ, but not in an MBTI sense. The difference between those types are probably more minute than most people are willing to realize or admit.

I don't want to get into a long drawn-out nitpicky debate, but to preface, I don't see reason to believe it's productive that Jungian Types and functions should get reinterpreted with different frameworks, such as MBTI and Socionics. The Jungian Types are excellent conscious-unconscious starting points and the functions of the types have a large set of philosophy behind them from which to observe and reason.

From that perspective, MBTI is essentially an over-simplistic and biased reinterpretation of Jung in my view. Socionics is much better and adds interesting logical structure and connections, but it still interprets things in its own bias. The biggest bias seems to be a negative imbuement of harsh Russian culture as belonging to Se and Fi, which seems logical given that Socionics was devised by supposed "alpha NT types" in areas either in Russia or once belonging to the Soviet Union. And the other is that dualistic aspects of our nature is something we want or will generally experience positively (I see that often is not the case).

There's also an aspect of type that rarely gets discussed because it adds greater complexity, a persona type. Gulenko's DCNH might be an attempt to describe this, but it essentially means the type you are can and will often be different than the type you present to others. That might sound obvious, but I rarely see people reason the distinction, often confusing persona for an actual type.

All that said, I think the view of INTJ in MBTI is highly skewed and represents more of a persona than the actual type. For example, it's not uncommon for people to feel a lot of sensing types are typed as INTJ. Hado's explanation here of INTJ sounds like a sensor with an INTJ persona for example. But Elon Musk is one of the most egregious examples I can think of. I think he's actually a more introverted ESTP with an NT persona, but it's also possible he's an ENTP with an ESTP persona. But Elon Musk with leading Ni is particularly odd because Ni is arguably the most reflective and introverted function, a kind of state of mind where you allow unconscious perceptions to manifest into conscious awareness, where you simply perceive a nature of things. Seer, crank, mystic are reasonable descriptions of that and absolutely not Elon Musk. Se on the other hand, is an opposite state of consciousness that actively must ignore that passive Ni process in order to engage the world directly outside of the mind. I think you could theoretically apply the Jungian functions to different states of consciousness and apply that to conceptualizing states of AI processes as well. There's a lot of potential to the Jungian ideas. But I don't enjoy when people start pretending MBTI, Socionics, and Jung are all different and equally valid. It usually just means they don't like or care for Jung.