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Have we screwed ourselves over with mass vaccinations?

Glaerhaidh

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Long story short: targeted vaccination is effective at preventing a global pandemic, but may be disastrous when several Covid 19 variants are already present in the population. Two problems are possible:
1. It may create ideal conditions for the virus to mutate resistance to the vaccine and future vaccines/tools.
2. The antibodies acquired through vaccination will prevent the natural antibodies from finding the virus by "binding" the virus and infected cells when these antibodies are no longer effective and one would prefer natural antibodies binding the virus instead.

What's your take?
 

Cognisant

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1. It may create ideal conditions for the virus to mutate resistance to the vaccine and future vaccines/tools.
2. The antibodies acquired through vaccination will prevent the natural antibodies from finding the virus by "binding" the virus and infected cells when these antibodies are no longer effective and one would prefer natural antibodies binding the virus instead.

What's your take?
That's idiotic.

1. Even if that wasn't absolute nonsense, which it is, the risk of exposure to a vaccine causing mutations that evade the vaccine is under no circumstances a reason not to vaccinate in the first place. You know what's always less effective than a partially effective vaccine? No vaccination at all.

2. Antibodies are antibodies whether they're derived from a vaccine or exposure to the live virus makes absolutely no difference because in either case they're produced by the body, if they stick to something that's their fucking job, they won't get in the way of the immune system because that's not how it works. T-cells are not going to ignore a virus covered in antibodies because those antibodies are produced by the body to tell the T-cell "kill this thing".
 

onesteptwostep

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Im not entirely sure on how the vaccines stop the viruses, but I remember reading somewhere that the current vaccinations cover for all variants and will most likely cover for all future variants. The delta variants we read on the news are simply more contagious than past variants, not that they are more resistant.
 

scorpiomover

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Long story short: targeted vaccination is effective at preventing a global pandemic, but may be disastrous when several Covid 19 variants are already present in the population. Two problems are possible:
1. It may create ideal conditions for the virus to mutate resistance to the vaccine and future vaccines/tools.
Had that problem with MRSA 30 years ago when we used antibiotics liberally to wipe out SA. Oddly enough, it was more prevalent in hospitals than in the people outside of them.
2. The antibodies acquired through vaccination will prevent the natural antibodies from finding the virus by "binding" the virus and infected cells when these antibodies are no longer effective and one would prefer natural antibodies binding the virus instead.
If vaccines are used ubiquitously, so that the body is consistently living in an environment where natural immunity isn't necessary, using up precious energy to make natural immunity where it's clearly unnecessary, is going to be against your biological survival instinct.

For instance, since we started reguarly eating sources of food that contain plenty of Vitamin C, the genes that control Vitamin C synthesis stopped being activated, and have become dormant.
 

Cognisant

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Had that problem with MRSA 30 years ago when we used antibiotics liberally to wipe out SA. Oddly enough, it was more prevalent in hospitals than in the people outside of them.
In what way? I mean hospitals are where sick people go and often where their conditions are diagnosed, like if I had a giant fucking disgusting welt on my leg that looks infected and only seems to be getting worse over time, and rather than immediately going to hospital I went to my general practitioner, I'm pretty sure he would either immediately send me to hospital, or take a biopsy and send it off for testing then immediately send me to hospital.

So if you think about it MRSA being more common in hospitals than outside of them actually makes a lot of sense, or are you saying people being infected with MRSA was more common in hospitals? Because that's a very bold claim.

If vaccines are used ubiquitously, so that the body is consistently living in an environment where natural immunity isn't necessary, using up precious energy to make natural immunity where it's clearly unnecessary, is going to be against your biological survival instinct.
No that's not how it works, the immune system can't get lulled into complacency or slack off, indeed if anything our hyper aggressive immune systems are the cause of many problems. Y'know those kids with clean freak parents who never let them get dirty and then they start developing all kinds of problems, that's because without invaders to fight off the hyper aggressive human immune system goes looking for a fight and starts killing off symbiotic bacteria and even the body's own cells.

So yeah if we vaccinated people against absolutely everything that could actually cause problems, humans are not only survivors we actually thrive on adversity (within reason) and without it we begin to literally self-destruct.

But a vaccine for a particular strain of virus isn't going to do that and if you get COVID it could really fuck you up, so it's simply better to get vaccinated than not, and if you're still worried about your immune system turning on you go buy a meat pizza and leave it in the fridge for 3-4 days to acquire character.


For instance, since we started reguarly eating sources of food that contain plenty of Vitamin C, the genes that control Vitamin C synthesis stopped being activated, and have become dormant.
Eehhh, yeah, but that's over hundreds if not thousands of generations of humans having plenty of access to Vitamin C in the fruit and vegetables we ate, and sure modern medicine in general is weakening the human gene pool but as I said we're talking hundreds if not thousands of generations.

Transhumanism will make natural selection irrelevant long before vaccinations have a noticeable impact.
 

scorpiomover

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Had that problem with MRSA 30 years ago when we used antibiotics liberally to wipe out SA. Oddly enough, it was more prevalent in hospitals than in the people outside of them.
In what way? I mean hospitals are where sick people go and often where their conditions are diagnosed, like if I had a giant fucking disgusting welt on my leg that looks infected and only seems to be getting worse over time, and rather than immediately going to hospital I went to my general practitioner, I'm pretty sure he would either immediately send me to hospital, or take a biopsy and send it off for testing then immediately send me to hospital.

So if you think about it MRSA being more common in hospitals than outside of them actually makes a lot of sense, or are you saying people being infected with MRSA was more common in hospitals? Because that's a very bold claim.
Was a big deal in the UK for several years. Sooooo many people went into hospital for something, caught MRSA, and died. Wasn't spreading outside of hospitals. Even knew someone whose dad died of it. It was like COVID, but for a decade.

I'm sorry that you aren't aware of the epidemics that have been happening.

If vaccines are used ubiquitously, so that the body is consistently living in an environment where natural immunity isn't necessary, using up precious energy to make natural immunity where it's clearly unnecessary, is going to be against your biological survival instinct.
No that's not how it works, the immune system can't get lulled into complacency or slack off, indeed if anything our hyper aggressive immune systems are the cause of many problems. Y'know those kids with clean freak parents who never let them get dirty and then they start developing all kinds of problems, that's because without invaders to fight off the hyper aggressive human immune system goes looking for a fight and starts killing off symbiotic bacteria and even the body's own cells.

So yeah if we vaccinated people against absolutely everything that could actually cause problems, humans are not only survivors we actually thrive on adversity (within reason) and without it we begin to literally self-destruct.

But a vaccine for a particular strain of virus isn't going to do that
The main argument for vaccination for COVID, is that despite that our immune systems are strong at protecting us against thousands of coronaviruses, and have plenty of viruses to fight that gives them plenty of adversity to thrive on, they're still lax against COVID-19 because they haven't had to deal with THAT type of coronavirus before.

and if you get COVID it could really fuck you up, so it's simply better to get vaccinated than not,
My concern is that attitude is how we got MRSA. People said that bacterial infections could really mess someone up, and antibiotics aren't going to kill anyone. So it's simply better to use antibiotics than not. People took that to heart, and used antibiotics all over the place like they were water, particularly in hospitals, and ignored any other reasonable measures that were old-fashioned and considered something only Boomers would do.

So quite clearly, humans made poor decisions regarding MRSA.

Also, humans seem to have made bad decisions regarding Thalidomide.

I'd like to see something that considers the pros and cons of something. A black-and-white argument that presents only one side, seems to be probably missing the other side of things.

Maybe if we had that back in the 1990s regarding MRSA, many people would still be alive.

and if you're still worried about your immune system turning on you go buy a meat pizza and leave it in the fridge for 3-4 days to acquire character.

That would be trying to ramp up people's fears until they make the decision you want them to, that is contrary to the views of their rational mind. I believe that's called "demagoguery".

I believe that demagoguery was something that Trump was accused of doing. Weren't you against Trump?
For instance, since we started reguarly eating sources of food that contain plenty of Vitamin C, the genes that control Vitamin C synthesis stopped being activated, and have become dormant.
Eehhh, yeah, but that's over hundreds if not thousands of generations of humans having plenty of access to Vitamin C in the fruit and vegetables we ate, and sure modern medicine in general is weakening the human gene pool but as I said we're talking hundreds if not thousands of generations.
For most of human history, the global population was stable, and the healthiest 10% of children survived to adulthood to reproduce and father the next generation.

Today, 99% of children survive to adulthood.

Imagine if you had a university in your country, that only accepts the top 10% of students. Now imagine that the government passes a law that says that the university must accept the top 99% of students. Do you expect that the level of intelligence and competency of the university's graduates will drop?

If they do drop, then by how much? 0.1%? 1%? 10%? More?

Transhumanism will make natural selection irrelevant long before vaccinations have a noticeable impact.
People were talking about transhumanism, flying cars, and spaceships that could travel to different galaxies, when I was a kid. Still not there yet.

Meanwhile, no-one was talking about having portable communicators that you could use to play games on, i.e. smartphones.

We're still waiting...
 

Cognisant

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You're right you shouldn't get vaccinated.

I will, but I think you shouldn't.
 

Deleted member 1424

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You listen to Mercola. That's just embarrassing.
A known profiteering scumbag quack even way before covid and you're his happy little patsy?

I'd insult you, but there's literally nothing that's worse than that that first statement of fact.
I urge you to relocate your brain.
 

peoplesuck

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The koolaid is safe, drink the koolaid
 

Glaerhaidh

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1. Even if that wasn't absolute nonsense, which it is, the risk of exposure to a vaccine causing mutations that evade the vaccine is under no circumstances a reason not to vaccinate in the first place. You know what's always less effective than a partially effective vaccine? No vaccination at all.
Agreed. I think the podcasts also agree provided that a new vaccine can be created quickly enough to stop the vaccine resistant variant. Otherwise if the mutations ramp up the guest says that Covid may become a seasonal flu-like pandemic that's going to hit every year.
2. Antibodies are antibodies whether they're derived from a vaccine or exposure to the live virus makes absolutely no difference because in either case they're produced by the body, if they stick to something that's their fucking job, they won't get in the way of the immune system because that's not how it works. T-cells are not going to ignore a virus covered in antibodies because those antibodies are produced by the body to tell the T-cell "kill this thing".
Having little knowledge on how the fascinating/complex human immune system works besides watching a few videos and reading a few articles, I can't verify their claim. What I know is that antibodies have two functions, they help other elements of the immune system recognize the pathogen that they bind to and they also "physically" stop the pathogen from replicating if they bind to an important element of its entry/replication mechanism.

If it's true that antibodies can be ineffective at stopping the replication mechanism after binding to the virus shell — meaning that they can glue its interfaces and virus can ignore it and continue to invade cells and replicate then it may lead to a significant decrease in the efficacy of the vaccine.

They also make the extra claim that the antibodies of the natural immune system are universal and can do the job better than the antibodies of the acquired immune system after the virus mutates against the vaccine. This would make more sense if the natural immune system also evolved its antibodies over time in the presence of the virus which I don't know if it does.

Another claim they make is that the vaccine antibodies bind more strongly and natural antibodies have a weaker binding so there is a tendency for vaccine antibodies to crowd the pathogents and stop the natural antibodies from getting close. Interesting if it's true.

I was one of the first people to get vaccinated because I trust the science and I had an early opportunity and I don't doubt that it's going to be useful to me personally. The podcasts says that it may be harmful globally and personally which is dubious to me.

Liking their open way of communicating and explaining things, though certainly they may be wrong and they're talking about a possibility.
 

ZenRaiden

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It would be nice if people look up what a virus is.

Every discussion about COVID would make more sense with people who know what an actual virus is.

Here is a hint. Its not a freaking 5 letter word.

Viruses will always exist.

Viruses don't care about emotions, politics, medicine, or vaccines or science.

They do not even care if they live or die.

They do not care if they infect you or not.

They have only one job and that is to replicate. If they fail to replicate they simply stop existing.

Any virus that does replicate is a problem for humans one way or another.

Unless of course that virus targets only cancerous cells and leaves the healthy cells alive.
 

ZenRaiden

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Covid may become a seasonal flu-like pandemic that's going to hit every year.
Covid may? more like Covid will.

Vaccines will not stop Covid ever.

It spreads too easy much like the flu we cannot shake of this planet.

Vaccines are merely damage control for time being.

They were only hopeful solution if the virus did not spread that much and had not muted that much.

Now vaccines merely represent a temporary solution.
 

Beliefofmine

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What is the point of a vaccine that neither stops you from getting a virus or stops you from spreading it?

That sounds like just being healthy to me, which can be accomplished in any number of other ways.

2 points I think we should all consider.

1. The current covid vaccines are different style vaccines than all other vaccines currently used to prevent other diseases. Unlike vaccines that prevent you from getting or spreading a disease, all the vaccine can do is make it milder.

2. We never were able to get rid of the Influenza virus that killed millions in 1918. It simply mutated into a less deadly version that we've been living with for the last 100 years. And the flu vaccines/boosters that come out each year for the flu have not been able to eradicate the flu, because it changes too often.

Some diseases we simply have to learn to live with. We all get sick, but as long as we don't die, that's the important thing.

I think it's important to look at the data.

Roughly 1 in 10 people have gotten the virus.

There's been a 1-2% fatality rate for Covid.

People 0-45 make up only 5% of deaths

People without underlying conditions make up <1% of deaths

So your chances of dying from Covid if you're under 45 and have no underlying conditions is roughly 1 in a million. If you're under 45 and you do have underlying conditions your chances of dying from covid are 1 in 10,000. I don't know about you, but those are pretty good odds of survival.

The media paints this picture as though everyone on all demographics are affected equally, which is not true. They're painting a picture that healthy kids and middle aged people are dropping like flies at the same rates as elderly people with pre-existing conditions. Which again, is simply not the case. But it sells their fearporn. And since it's gotten politicized so much, people will throw aside anyone that has a stance pointing out holes in the arguments.

People generally lack perspective when it comes to large numbers, so it's easy to get caught up thinking things are worse than they are.

Keep in mind that on average 60 million people die a year from all causes, and covid has killed 4 million in almost 2 years. It's not even a blip in the grand scheme of things, but what it is, is a massive power grab by governments and surveillance states, who get to push a political narrative to get you to give up freedoms and rights so they can protect you. And years from now when covid is gone and not talked about, what won't be gone is the powers that we so willingly gave up to government.
 
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