Dream analysis format COOKED and FRIED

[ZenRaiden]

I don't know much about dream analysis and I don't know how helpful can it be, but over the past months I had very vivid and also very complex dreams, dreams so complex they feel like entire books have been written in my mind.
Factually if I could remember the dreams and write them out it would be worth pages of writing. Maybe even make for a good fantasy story.

The problem I have is these dreams are recurring, and things are always fuzzy and hard to grasp in such complexity.

My recurring themes are hidden libraries with vast number of books...
Being in a city and going through buildings usually dressed in some late 19 century clothing.
Just going through attics and houses in urban areas and sometimes chasing someone.
One time I chased Dracula who was jumping on roof tops of Prague.
Sometimes I have dreams of rooms and hotels, and various complex areas and slides, like huge vast number of different slides I jump on and slide down. Some rooms are tiny and I have to crawl in them and other rooms are massive and have complex design.
Its not just one slide, but 10 or 20 slides in row all going in different direction or sometimes they are parallel.
Usually dreams evoke feelings, but no talking, minus one dream I had.
Sometimes I am interacting with people on some level, but not sure who.
Symbolic things that I cannot figure out.
Obviously these dreams mean something and theme can happen again and again, but at the same time, the theme can happen in different setting with different visuals.

I looked at dream analysis ideas from Freud and Jung on youtube they have similar ideas, albeit Jung prefers taking symbols more literally.

I wrote down what I could, but I have hard time pinning down anything traceable to real life.

 

[Hadoblado]

Writing it down is a really good idea, it will help you remember them and to give a more objective appraisal of their value. Often what I consider deeply meaningful while dreaming turns out nonsensical when considered while awake.

I'm a proponent of psychodynamic theories to some extent, and I think that dreams most likely mean something, but the measure is too unreliable and the interpretation rarely valid. Quite frankly, I just don't trust people to gain meaningful insights into dreams or more importantly, to know when these insights are meaningful compared to when they are not (which is likely most of the time).

The subconscious and unconscious influences are just too hard to objectively measure.

For interpreting my own dreams, it's actually my unfettered emotional response to the dream that I pay attention to. While the dream could just be random synapses firing, an echo of waking thought, my reaction makes use of the same neural architecture as my waking state, but less inhibited. For someone like me who suppresses emotions in order to function, this can serve as a window into actually seeing where I'm at. The symbolic stuff seems to make use of faculties I have access to while awake, so don't feel the need to torture meaning out of them.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Yeah you seem to echo my own internal concerns I have. Pretty much the idea that this messy visual story can be traced to some deeper meaning without it just being random synaptic spasm, or random chance of how my brain configures the days input.

Either way I do believe Jung and others spoke of great importance to dreams so I bet there is some value in the things, Ill stick to it just for fun now tho.

When it comes to symbolism I think there is indeed conscious part of our mind that can comprehend it too.
I feel like symbols are just compressed information or very complicated mental functions sort of.

 

[Hadoblado]

I see symbolism as rhyming concepts. There doesn't need to be much there beyond the cosmetic, but a mind hungry for meaning will chew bones for the marrow. Yes in a way, it's a compression of information, like a personal language of meaning. I like that.

 

[scorpiomover]

I don't know much about dream analysis and I don't know how helpful can it be, but over the past months I had very vivid and also very complex dreams, dreams so complex they feel like entire books have been written in my mind.
Factually if I could remember the dreams and write them out it would be worth pages of writing. Maybe even make for a good fantasy story.

Dreams tend to be like that when you remember them. Occasionally I have described my dreams to someone else (who was in the same house) when I woke up and could still remember them. Usually took at least 2 hours.

The problem I have is these dreams are recurring, and things are always fuzzy and hard to grasp in such complexity.

I tend to find recurring dreams are when things are going on in my life that keep happening and need urgent action.

My recurring themes are hidden libraries with vast number of books...
Being in a city and going through buildings usually dressed in some late 19 century clothing.
Just going through attics and houses in urban areas and sometimes chasing someone.
One time I chased Dracula who was jumping on roof tops of Prague.
Sometimes I have dreams of rooms and hotels, and various complex areas and slides, like huge vast number of different slides I jump on and slide down. Some rooms are tiny and I have to crawl in them and other rooms are massive and have complex design.
Its not just one slide, but 10 or 20 slides in row all going in different direction or sometimes they are parallel.

Given that you are usually chasing someone or going through places, it sounds as if you are searching for someone.

Given that you are surrounded by books, it sounds as if it's about information, as if you are surrounded by information, but seeking something else. Either:

1) You feel you need information, and are surrounded by messages and ideas that are all really misinformation and disinformation, and so looking for a needle in a haystack. You know you need truth, but are living in a post-truth world, where everyone claims to have the truth, but everything you come across turns out to be either false, or things that misrepresent and distort the truth, and so you have to keep searching.

2) You are surrounded by ideas. But you have reached the point at which you find information alone is useless, and you need something more: possibly action, or love, or something else. Either way, you have reached the point at which more information isn't going to help you at this point in your life.

Usually dreams evoke feelings, but no talking, minus one dream I had.
Sometimes I am interacting with people on some level, but not sure who.

Given that you are talking with people you can't identify, and you are somehow aware that there are no feelings involved, even though you're normally not that bothered by feelings, it sounds as if you feel like you're in an emotionless vacuum. All those people seemingly upset about things that don't really have anything to do with them, and that they really probably don't care about at all, while ignoring all the issues that probably would make them upset.

Given how you observed this, it's clear that you feel that your environment is missing feelings, and personal communication. Your subconscious is telling you that you have reached the point of personal development where you need some face-to-face emotionally-fulfilling relationships. Doesn't have to be romantic or sexual. But it has to involve feelings.

Symbolic things that I cannot figure out.
Obviously these dreams mean something and theme can happen again and again, but at the same time, the theme can happen in different setting with different visuals.

I looked at dream analysis ideas from Freud and Jung on youtube they have similar ideas, albeit Jung prefers taking symbols more literally.

I wrote down what I could, but I have hard time pinning down anything traceable to real life.

I've been reading your posts on and off over the years. I've noticed a tendency where you've realised that the typical INTP pursuits have not helped you very much. You even recently started a thread suggesting that you not thinking would actually improve your life.

So clearly, either you feel that you're not getting the info you need, or you need to get on and do, rather than just think.

That this is repetitive, suggests that it's a need that keeps happening to you, over and over. Like a man who is hungry, but hasn't seen edible food in over a month. Time to change your life.

 

[scorpiomover]

I'm a proponent of psychodynamic theories to some extent,

I'm not a fan of psychodynamic theory.

Psychodynamic theory stresses that most of what we do, and thus most of the things that happen to us because of the consequences of what we do, are mostly not due to our conscious, what we think, know, value, feel, and also what we believe we do (as opposed to what we actually do), but still due to us.

It's like we are an iceberg, and the conscious is just the tip of the iceberg that can be seen. If we cause severe harm to others, like an iceberg that hits the Titanic and kills hundreds of people, it's only the stuff underneath that is not seen by us that wrecked the ship and caused all those people to die.

If we see others as racists, then either they are not racists, and we are attacking them unfairly, or we are racists as well, and just as guilty as them, maybe even more so, because if there really was racism going on, and we had nothing to do with it, then we wouldn't even be aware of it and wouldn't even notice it.

I agree with the theory in principle.

But most of what i hear about psychodynamic theory, does not seem to deal with the 3 most important elements of that:

1. How to stop yourself harming others due to things outside of your conscious awareness and conscious control, without basically locking ourselves in our rooms and not enjoying our lives.
2. How to deal with the incredibly uncomfortable emotions that we are the evil-doers.
3. How to interact with others in a positive way that takes our own unconscious effects into account.

Without those elements, it robs people of their perception of agency to do good in the world, and not to do evil, which often freaks people out, and leads to suicide attempts in those who acknowledge their evil, and thus to save the mind from a complete nervous breakdown, makes most people deny their part in such injustice and oppression.

 

[ZenRaiden]

1) You feel you need information, and are surrounded by messages and ideas that are all really misinformation and disinformation, and so looking for a needle in a haystack. You know you need truth, but are living in a post-truth world, where everyone claims to have the truth, but everything you come across turns out to be either false, or things that misrepresent and distort the truth, and so you have to keep searching.

2) You are surrounded by ideas. But you have reached the point at which you find information alone is useless, and you need something more: possibly action, or love, or something else. Either way, you have reached the point at which more information isn't going to help you at this point in your life.

I can see both as problem but number to seems more real and personal. That is I did search ton of information on topics of psychology in order to deal with some personal issues and have come up rather short of expectation. I did find some small solutions, but honestly I thought Id have a all round solution, but it seems that is no longer possible and I will have to work out my issues over long period of time with who knows what kind of tools. So not a bad reading.

Given how you observed this, it's clear that you feel that your environment is missing feelings, and personal communication. Your subconscious is telling you that you have reached the point of personal development where you need some face-to-face emotionally-fulfilling relationships. Doesn't have to be romantic or sexual. But it has to involve feelings.

That is true, also accurate, its just that has been my case for years.

I've been reading your posts on and off over the years. I've noticed a tendency where you've realised that the typical INTP pursuits have not helped you very much. You even recently started a thread suggesting that you not thinking would actually improve your life.

Its not that the pursuits did not help, they were kind of hollow and I genuinely did not find much energy to engage with them.
In matter of speaking I do like my pursuits I just lacked the energy to do them on one side, on other side I realized recently my will power is not the issue when it comes to following through. It seems I am kind of mentally blocked on some level. Either way I realized part of that block is from my mind. Recently wrote a remark "Am I just a clown on square wheels?" It really made me think there is something I have to fix, but at same time there are lot of issues I have, but to reduce it to one issue I think it would be focus on emotions rather than constantly living in my head.

 

[scorpiomover]

That is I did search ton of information on topics of psychology in order to deal with some personal issues and have come up rather short of expectation. I did find some small solutions, but honestly I thought Id have a all round solution, but it seems that is no longer possible and I will have to work out my issues over long period of time with who knows what kind of tools.

I had some personal issues, and found the same issues.

Its not that the pursuits did not help, they were kind of hollow and I genuinely did not find much energy to engage with them.

In matter of speaking I do like my pursuits I just lacked the energy to do them on one side, on other side I realized recently my will power is not the issue when it comes to following through. It seems I am kind of mentally blocked on some level. Either way I realized part of that block is from my mind.

I noticed the same problems with myself.

Recently wrote a remark "Am I just a clown on square wheels?" It really made me think there is something I have to fix, but at same time there are lot of issues I have, but to reduce it to one issue I think it would be focus on emotions rather than constantly living in my head.

I ended up taking an entirely different approach, which seems to be working better for me.

 

[ZenRaiden]

I ended up taking an entirely different approach, which seems to be working better for me.

Well I like to hear it then if you care to share.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Without those elements, it robs people of their perception of agency to do good in the world, and not to do evil, which often freaks people out, and leads to suicide attempts in those who acknowledge their evil, and thus to save the mind from a complete nervous breakdown, makes most people deny their part in such injustice and oppression.

Just recently read a paper taking the same position as you on psycho dynamic theory, but I deleted it immediately because it seemed like professional attack on certain guy who developed ideas in psycho dynamic theory. Did not think much of it.

But this seems like it could be a thread on its own lol. I actually wonder what the critique is, because so far I have not come across anything explicitly objectionable in psycho dynamic theory.

 

[fluffy]

I agree with the theory in principle.

But most of what i hear about psychodynamic theory, does not seem to deal with the 3 most important elements of that:

1. How to stop yourself harming others due to things outside of your conscious awareness and conscious control, without basically locking ourselves in our rooms and not enjoying our lives.
2. How to deal with the incredibly uncomfortable emotions that we are the evil-doers.
3. How to interact with others in a positive way that takes our own unconscious effects into account.

Without those elements, it robs people of their perception of agency to do good in the world, and not to do evil, which often freaks people out, and leads to suicide attempts in those who acknowledge their evil, and thus to save the mind from a complete nervous breakdown, makes most people deny their part in such injustice and oppression.

Are you taking about projection?

The tendency to think of others as having bad qualities to deflect from thinking of oneself as possessing those bad qualities?

I believe that is a natural response to pain.

Likely a pain you can only get rid of by expressing it externally. Yelling breaking screaming.

Patrick Starfish on SpongeBob show, his slogans was: He will take our countries problems and push them somewhere else.

Which really is defeated purpose.

Pushing your problems onto other people don't always work. Sometimes ones problems need more work than that so it's easier to do the opposite and not work on them at all.

Rather people need help with their problems they don't know how to solve, when they don't know what else to do.

I've gotten very upset in the past when others project onto me when I ask them for help or try to help. It means they don't know how to help me or themselves and are mad I need help in the first place.

I learned that as long as I have basic needs met I can maintain composure but unless other people are mature it's best not to interact with them when I know they won't help me. This is most hard for one to do when they need to emotionally rely on others for validation. That's the reason people project as it's something they did not receive as children having unstable attachments.

 

[scorpiomover]

Just recently read a paper taking the same position as you on psycho dynamic theory, but I deleted it immediately because it seemed like professional attack on certain guy who developed ideas in psycho dynamic theory. Did not think much of it.

Freud and Jung used psychodynamic theory. But both were psychoanalysts in a time when most people could not afford psychotherapy. It was mostly for the very wealthy, and only for problems that would be worth spending thousands of dollars on.

It also took several years for therapy to complete. So it was only for long-term problems that weren't urgent. Even if it stopped them from earning a living, they still needed to have a wealthy family who would keep paying all their bills for several years till therapy would complete.

It was mainly used for people in very wealthy families with extreme psychological conditions. E.G. a woman married to a very wealthy man, who can't enjoy sex with her husband, because she's only turned on by thoughts of having sex with dogs.

But this seems like it could be a thread on its own lol. I actually wonder what the critique is, because so far I have not come across anything explicitly objectionable in psycho dynamic theory.

One critique would be that since the theory suggests that a lot of what we do is due to things from the subconscious, that we don't even know about, it also suffers from the Alignment Problem.

 

[Hadoblado]

I'm a proponent of psychodynamic theories to some extent,

I'm not a fan of psychodynamic theory.

Psychodynamic theory stresses that most of what we do, and thus most of the things that happen to us because of the consequences of what we do, are mostly not due to our conscious, what we think, know, value, feel, and also what we believe we do (as opposed to what we actually do), but still due to us.

It's like we are an iceberg, and the conscious is just the tip of the iceberg that can be seen. If we cause severe harm to others, like an iceberg that hits the Titanic and kills hundreds of people, it's only the stuff underneath that is not seen by us that wrecked the ship and caused all those people to die.

If we see others as racists, then either they are not racists, and we are attacking them unfairly, or we are racists as well, and just as guilty as them, maybe even more so, because if there really was racism going on, and we had nothing to do with it, then we wouldn't even be aware of it and wouldn't even notice it.

I agree with the theory in principle.

But most of what i hear about psychodynamic theory, does not seem to deal with the 3 most important elements of that:

1. How to stop yourself harming others due to things outside of your conscious awareness and conscious control, without basically locking ourselves in our rooms and not enjoying our lives.
2. How to deal with the incredibly uncomfortable emotions that we are the evil-doers.
3. How to interact with others in a positive way that takes our own unconscious effects into account.

Without those elements, it robs people of their perception of agency to do good in the world, and not to do evil, which often freaks people out, and leads to suicide attempts in those who acknowledge their evil, and thus to save the mind from a complete nervous breakdown, makes most people deny their part in such injustice and oppression.

1 and 3 are hand in hand. I'll address 2 first the circle back.

2) That's a personal journey and one that involves understanding the world in terms of scale. Yes, I see everyone as racist etc. I don't think it's possible to go through life without the stupid pattern recogniser part of your brain gleening some pattern from your experience that extends to some race/gender/whatever.

Does that mean that my grandma is equal in racism to the KKK? No. Does it mean I hold everyone in contempt? Also no. It's just an acceptance that we're all a little bit flawed basically by definition, and we try, through mindfulness, self-awareness, and conscious effort, to behave ourselves. This is where we get to 1 and 3. Am I harming others? In some ways yes. You don't get the benefit of a clean sheet. We're all in it together. I can only, through experience and effort, come to be a person better than the one I am today. While the conscious mind is a minority, similar to government, it holds disproportionate sway. In fact, there's a lot about government that I see as analogical to psychodynamic consciousness. Politicians, while obviously more salient and powerful than the lay person, are still mechanistically tied to their constituents even if they never meet them face to face.

 

[scorpiomover]

I ended up taking an entirely different approach, which seems to be working better for me.

Well I like to hear it then if you care to share.

It's an entirely different approach to the common modern rationalist attitude towards life, and even the stereotypical religious attitudes towards life.

Think of it like you are Sinbad the Sailor. The captain of the Titantic looks for the icebergs. But you know that most of the icebergs are underwater. You'll problably hit an iceberg long before you know it's there.

So you have to follow the currents, as the currents will flow around the icebergs, and so that's what will tell you how to avoid the currents.

Even when the other sea-captains are saying that you're heading for the rocks, you have to trust that the ocean is "on your side", and will show you the right currents to follow, because otherwise, you'll stop following the currents, and look for the icebergs, and then it's only a matter of time until you hit an iceberg that is a lot bigger than you realised.

So it requires 3 attitudes:
1) Keep moving. Staying still is just waiting for an iceberg to hit your hull underwater.
2) Follow the currents where they lead, no matter how crazy it seems to everyone.
3) Trust that the universe is on your side, and that things will work out in the end.

 

[Puffy]

It’s a fascinating topic that I agree leans more into the intuitive than the logical in making an interpretation, similar to how you’d interpret a novel it’s symbolic and multi-layered in its meaning. Can we say a novel has one objective meaning? Not really but we still enjoy engaging with them and using them as a source of contemplation.

Something I try is having a conscious dialogue with the dream. As I’m falling asleep or as I wake up in the night I ask a question I’d like an answer to in the form of a dream. Then I’ll write down as much as I remember about the dream in the morning and review it as a response. I’ve noticed that dreams also respond to how you interpret them or what you have on your mind. I.e if you start leaning on Jung a lot then you’ll get a lot of Jungian references and it will lend itself to that interpretation. Through such means you can develop your own framework of dialogue and making sense of dream content.

In terms of dream interpretation I try to go with my initial waking impression. If you stay in the same position when you wake up you’re more likely to remember more of the dream.

 

[scorpiomover]

Are you taking about projection?

Also transference.

The tendency to think of others as having bad qualities to deflect from thinking of oneself as possessing those bad qualities?

You can also project and transfer without tying to deflect, as you may not even be aware that you possess those bad traits.

I believe that is a natural response to pain.

Likely a pain you can only get rid of by expressing it externally. Yelling breaking screaming.

That's one approach to pain, if pain is only there to be got rid of.

Imagine you had a pain that was indicative that you are sick. You can get rid of the pain by taking painkillers that would numb the pain. But that won't stop you from getting sicker and sicker.

OTOH, if the body produces pain when you are sick, then if you treat the sickness, even if the treatment is itself painful and therefore causes even more pain, then the sickness will heal, and then the body will eventually stop being sick, and so will stop producing pain.

Patrick Starfish on SpongeBob show, his slogans was: He will take our countries problems and push them somewhere else.

Then the other countries have those problems, and then the Patrick Starfish in those countries push those problems onto other countries. Then the Patrick Starfish in those countries push those problems onto other countries, and so on, until eventually a Patrick Starfish in another country is pushing those problems back onto your country.

Which really is defeated purpose.

Yes.

Rather people need help with their problems they don't know how to solve, when they don't know what else to do.

Yes. But that requires everyone working together to solve each other's problems, that they cannot solve themselves.

I learned that as long as I have basic needs met I can maintain composure but unless other people are mature it's best not to interact with them when I know they won't help me.

Yes. But humans are a social species. So you still need other people to interact with. Also, no human is perfect, and so most people will probably do this sometimes.

This is most hard for one to do when they need to emotionally rely on others for validation. That's the reason people project as it's something they did not receive as children having unstable attachments.

Yes. You have to learn a different way of dealing with life's problems. But just as not all people will make you suffer, some people have learned how to deal with problems better, and will help you to learn how.

 

[fluffy]

The past two days I had very vivid clear dreams.

Yesterday I dreamed about Dragon Ball Z and going to a beach town where the characters interacted. Then I was 4 feet tall in an apartment complex at night with a kitchen, living room and tv.

Last night it was about spaceships and a future economy of agriculture in space with materials for space stations and transport.

Tho I have had dreams like them in the themes it was not in the same ways that things happened in place or sequence.

 

[scorpiomover]

@Hadoblado, don't want to get into a potential argument with you, where you might think that I'm assuming motives about you that aren't true, and which could get very heavy. This thread is really only about @ZenRaiden's dreams, after all.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Something I try is having a conscious dialogue with the dream. As I’m falling asleep or as I wake up in the night I ask a question I’d like an answer to in the form of a dream. Then I’ll write down as much as I remember about the dream in the morning and review it as a response. I’ve noticed that dreams also respond to how you interpret them or what you have on your mind. I.e if you start leaning on Jung a lot then you’ll get a lot of Jungian references and it will lend itself to that interpretation. Through such means you can develop your own framework of dialogue and making sense of dream content.

Apparently there are ways to directly tap into unconscious using symbols. That unconscious language is complex, but our conscious mind can find a link to it.

What I tried doing is closing my eyes and watching what image comes up in my minds eye. If something happens to be there its Id argue the representation of the unconscious in form of symbol.