do all women eventually want kids?

[bemused]

I read something on Slate that shook me to the core. A woman in her early 30s wrote in claiming that she is changing her mind when it comes to having children. She and her husband of five years both agreed before marriage never to have them, but now she is having a change of heart, but he is still staying true to his conviction.

I am in this slow transitional phase from friend to romantic partner- she claims never to want children, but I have noticed (long before we decided to date) when she is perusing facebook, the bitter envy in her eyes as she is viewing all those carefully selected snapshots of her friends 'perfect' lives. She sees the smiling faces in the happy wedding photos, she is constantly bombarded with photos of cute babies - she sees this sappy, carefully cultivated image that I'm afraid she is going to merge into her fantasy life.

I fear us developing a meaningful relationship, and her suddenly changing her mind a few years down the road about the whole family thing. I can hear it now: "Jonas- I know we agreed not to have children, but I think I want to start a family- I can't go on living this empty life anymore - I'm 30, my biological clock is ticking, all our friends have moved on, and we're stuck in this wretched overpriced apartment - we do nothing but kvetch about the world, lie around watching netflix, and you're always high. I'm sick of it. I want move to the suburbs, you know? I want to take my kids to Disney world and to the beach, I want to go for walks at night without hte fear of being raped or mugged. It's time for us to grow up"!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

"But (redacted) aren't most of your friends divorced now? Aren't they struggling single moms? Look- raising a child isn't easy - the constant worrying about their health and safety, the unbelievable cost, it is a huge responsibility. Is it worth it? I thought we both agreed not to bring a human being into this vile world- those were your words, weren't they? What if our kid is born with some life-threatening disease or illness? what if they become ill, or are in some sort accident or something and it wipes out our savings? What if the financial market collapses, and everything we saved and work for is gone?"

Maybe I am thinking too far ahead, but damn is that frightening.

Anyway-so is the evolutionary desire to breed too strong, or can reason triumph.

 

[Jennywocky]

Overall, I would suggest that you not worry about women in general, but just about your [potential?] partner. She's the woman who matters in terms of it impacting your life. Also, conjecturing about it won't matter as much (except to get you worked up) as engaging her on the issue. Yes, people can change; sometimes we are mistaken about what we want, other times we can change and so we'll want things we didn't think we'd want earlier in life. That's part of life. You need to communicate and stay on the same page as well as you can -- this means this is not a "one time for always" discussion but something you will need to stay in tune on. You should even share your fears about how she might change based on what you've seen, and how you feel about that.

Also, interestingly, you have to acknowledge that YOU might change at some point. Maybe not, but you could. Life brings about some funny insights and desires sometimes.

In my experience, though, many women do at some point want kids, yet I have female friends who I think would be good mothers but who do not want children. I even have a few female friends who actively dislike children, even if otherwise they're just your average female. Some are very happy to be single, be childless, and/or raise pets instead.

Finally, it's not necessarily "desire to breed" vs "reason." You make it sound illegitimate to actually desire kids or to agree with any biological instincts one might have. There are lots of good rational reasons to have kids; there are also some really bad irrational reasons to have kids. The reasons matter.

 

[kris]

Sometimes you just have to take your chances. Get a vasectomy and there is only a 0.5% chance you'll be able have a child with her or any other woman. Well, a child of your own, at least. I mean, you can't control everything, but you do what you can.

I wouldn't worry about kids in the vile world though. Pretty sure it was almost always vile in one way or another, yet people still managed to eke out happiness here and there all the same.

 

[bemused]

Overall, I would suggest that you not worry about women in general, but just about your [potential?] partner. She's the woman who matters in terms of it impacting your life.

Yeah I agree- but my mind is constantly looking for patterns and associations and reaching broad conclusions from them. I read that article a few days after we decided to date and had a 'oh crap' reaction, and immediately started thinking way off into the future.

In my experience, though, many women do at some point want kids

See what I mean?

Also, conjecturing about it won't matter as much (except to get you worked up) as engaging her on the issue. Yes, people can change; sometimes we are mistaken about what we want, other times we can change and so we'll want things we didn't think we'd want earlier in life. That's part of life. You need to communicate and stay on the same page as well as you can -- this means this is not a "one time for always" discussion but something you will need to stay in tune on. You should even share your fears about how she might change based on what you've seen, and how you feel about that.

The thing is, we at least verbally agree on this issue. We discussed stuff like this long before we started dating- our worldview is very similar, though mine is more cynical and cold and hers is a little more dewy-eyed and hopeful, but we generally arrive at the same conclusions. However, I get this nagging sense that she has this underlying biological urge that is going find its way to the surface.

We are in the genesis our relationship and decided to move slowly, so I can't exactly bring this up now. I doubt she is even aware of her feelings. I know I am thinking far ahead, but there is a possibility we 'fall in love' and this issue could the one that tears us apart.

Also, interestingly, you have to acknowledge that YOU might change at some point. Maybe not, but you could. Life brings about some funny insights and desires sometimes.

lol I highly doubt it. Anything is possible though.

Finally, it's not necessarily "desire to breed" vs "reason." You make it sound illegitimate to actually desire kids or to agree with any biological instincts one might have. There are lots of good rational reasons to have kids; there are also some really bad irrational reasons to have kids. The reasons matter.

Can you provide one reason that isn't from some emotional or biological perspective on why bringing a child into this world is a good thing?

...and why did I just feel like I had a mini therapy session? haha

 

[kris]

The elderly will eventually be carried by the young. Potentially, you will some day be elderly. Someone has to have kids to fill this need. If it's you, you at least have some influence on the generation that will be running things when you've retired, and who will support you should you need it.

 

[Jennywocky]

Yeah I agree- but my mind is constantly looking for patterns and associations and reaching broad conclusions from them. I read that article a few days after we decided to date and had a 'oh crap' reaction, and immediately started thinking way off into the future.

yeah, I know. I do that too.

What I have discovered is that sometimes I create problems for myself for situations that haven't even begun yet, though. The mind races too far ahead into fantasy land, into a future that might never exist with the smallest of twists in the present.

The troubles of the future will be waiting for you when you get there, it's best to focus on the troubles of today with just a glance down the road so you don't run off a cliff.

See what I mean?

The thing is, we at least verbally agree on this issue. We discussed stuff like this long before we started dating- our worldview is very similar, though mine is more cynical and cold and hers is a little more dewy-eyed and hopeful, but we generally arrive at the same conclusions. However, I get this nagging sense that she has this underlying biological urge that is going find its way to the surface.

We are in the genesis our relationship and decided to move slowly, so I can't exactly bring this up now. I doubt she is even aware of her feelings. I know I am thinking far ahead, but there is a possibility we 'fall in love' and this issue could the one that tears us apart.

See, cutting to the chase, here's the problem: If you can't even trust this woman you actually know, why would you think some other woman (other than a sterile one) could give you a better outcome? Basically you've pinpointed the uncertainty inherent in any relationship, and it's one of those things you just have to explore as best as you can, then make a trust decision. You won't get any stronger promises, life always possesses an element of uncertainty.

Either you reasonably trust her or you don't. But you're gonna have the same questions with anyone you marry, so you risk-assess based on the individual.

lol I highly doubt it. Anything is possible though.

That sounds fair.

Can you provide one reason that isn't from some emotional or biological perspective on why bringing a child into this world is a good thing?

Why is a biological or emotional reason faulty? Not everything in life is logical. Even "quality of life" is an emotional / harmonic centering, not a rational one. Why do you want to be in a relationship at all? I am sure there is something "emotional" in there.

People don't have babies for rational reasons, well, not unless you're the only mated pair left after the human race has almost been destroyed and you feel some burden to repopulate the species. There is no rational reason for you to be in a romantic relationship with anyone, you could do just fine being alone I am sure.

...and why did I just feel like I had a mini therapy session? haha

Sorry. I've had other people tell me that too, you're not the first. I'm in the wrong line of work!

 

[TimeAsylums]

There is no rational reason for you to be in a romantic relationship with anyone, you could do just fine being alone I am sure.

Humans are social creatures. Assuming that a romantic relationship provides better for continuous stability rather than not - semi rational. But, this is a fundamental assumption.

 

[deadpixel]

Children.... the only kid I like is my own, other than that they make me uncomfortable.
Im lucky to have her, the innocence of a child can be very nice to have around, I cant really describe it.

Here us making a pizza

 

[TimeAsylums]

Children.... the only kid I like is my own

they make me uncomfortable

I hate kids, all of them

also, i'm the resident attention whore around here

 

[Spocksleftball]

All women want my children. I am fixed. Therefore, all women can attempt to have my children with a result of the tandem glories of the process without resulting burden .


Been drinking, thus no women are approaching.

 

[Jennywocky]

Humans are social creatures. Assuming that a romantic relationship provides better for continuous stability rather than not - semi rational. But, this is a fundamental assumption.

it could be argued in today's world that a relationship can be as frustrating as it is potentially positive.

And there are some people who are fine with being alone, so your initial statement doesn't hold up across the board and even conflicts with the second part -- it's not typically stability (and thus rational), it's emotional.

People usually don't go looking for an SO for practical reasons at least here in the USA, it's usually, "OMG I'm attracted to this person" or "OMG I'm so lonely and now I'm in love." It's usually for an emotional reason. In fact, spoofs are made on someone who would propose by saying, "I think we'd make genetically superior offspring and we'd make a professional team and lots of income together." That's not exactly why people seek out a personal relationship.

 

[TimeAsylums]

it could be argued in today's world that a relationship can be as frustrating as it is potentially positive.

And there are some people who are fine with being alone, so your initial statement doesn't hold up.

Agreed. That's why I called it an assumption.

By "being alone," I meant like hermit alone, not just yer regular introvert (jk) lol

My point is that people usually don't go looking for an SO for practical reasons at least here in the USA, it's usually, "OMG I'm attracted to this person" or "OMG I'm so lonely and now I'm in love." It's usually for an emotional reason.

ye I agree

 

[Cherry Cola]

For a woman (unfortunately so owing to the world being sexist) to say that she does not want to have children can be an expression of individuality and freedom. That is not to say that a woman who says so does not mean what she is saying. Nor that all women want children.

I am basing this on anecdotal evidence btw.

 

[Pyropyro]

I think it's the potential parents' capability to raise kids rather than the idea of raising kids that should be questioned.

People usually don't go looking for an SO for practical reasons at least here in the USA, it's usually, "OMG I'm attracted to this person" or "OMG I'm so lonely and now I'm in love." It's usually for an emotional reason. In fact, spoofs are made on someone who would propose by saying, "I think we'd make genetically superior offspring and we'd make a professional team and lots of income together." That's not exactly why people seek out a personal relationship.

I envy your culture's flexibility sometimes. The freedom to simply choose without taking other people's thoughts and feelings into account. Here, family members usually also have a minor say in your relationships and conflicts arising from this concerns can become bitter sometimes. Courting someone (in the traditional way anyways, there are shallow relationships built through texting and chat here as well) usually involves courting all family members as potential allies. Then there's religious restrictions as well. It's not unusual for one of the partners to convert so that they can be in a relationship.

 

[bemused]

See, cutting to the chase, here's the problem: If you can't even trust this woman you actually know, why would you think some other woman (other than a sterile one) could give you a better outcome? Basically you've pinpointed the uncertainty inherent in any relationship, and it's one of those things you just have to explore as best as you can, then make a trust decision. You won't get any stronger promises, life always possesses an element of uncertainty.

Either you reasonably trust her or you don't. But you're gonna have the same questions with anyone you marry, so you risk-assess based on the individual.

This is definitely true, I agree. I am hopelessly cynical. However, I think we had a bit of a communication breakdown here. I wasn't suggesting nor do I think she lying to me in order to ensnare me into donating sperm for some future gravida nightmare scene. I was just saying that I don't even think that she is aware of her own biological feelings. Like I said, I've noticed the way she looks enviously at photos of friends with their leave-it-to-beaver snippets they post online that leave the impression of a happy life.

You seem very perceptive and mindful of others, so I am sure you can agree that some people give off certain vibes and looks that contradict their words (even if they believe them). That is what I am getting from her. As you stated, in your experience, most women eventually come to want children. See that is what frightens me, and that is the whole reason I made this thread.

Why is a biological or emotional reason faulty? Not everything in life is logical. Even "quality of life" is an emotional / harmonic centering, not a rational one. Why do you want to be in a relationship at all? I am sure there is something "emotional" in there.
People don't have babies for rational reasons, well, not unless you're the only mated pair left after the human race has almost been destroyed and you feel some burden to repopulate the species. There is no rational reason for you to be in a romantic relationship with anyone, you could do just fine being alone I am sure.

I'm actually nodding in agreement as I am reading all this, but you stated (and I hate to get all male ego on you) that there are rational reasons for procreation. I was asking you to provide of an example of one.

well, not unless you're the only mated pair left after the human race has almost been destroyed and you feel some burden to repopulate the species

I'll accept that but I put that more along the lines of evolutionary instinct. Forgive me for being a teenage drama queen here, but if everything must die, why bring it into existence in the first place? All emotional and biological reasons, right?

Sorry. I've had other people tell me that too, you're not the first

That doesn't surprise me.

 

[Jennywocky]

This is definitely true, I agree. I am hopelessly cynical. However, I think we had a bit of a communication breakdown here. I wasn't suggesting nor do I think she lying to me in order to ensnare me into donating sperm for some future gravida nightmare scene. I was just saying that I don't even think that she is aware of her own biological feelings. Like I said, I've noticed the way she looks enviously at photos of friends with their leave-it-to-beaver snippets they post online that leave the impression of a happy life.

I know. You were clear about that.

I'm just saying that you could say that about any woman... so who can you trust if you think any woman might be unaware of her own desires? If I just thought, "all guys just want women for sex" (as another example) regardless of how they seem right this moment, then I'd be scared/depressed about bothering with any of them.

You seem very perceptive and mindful of others, so I am sure you can agree that some people give off certain vibes and looks that contradict their words (even if they believe them). That is what I am getting from her. As you stated, in your experience, most women eventually come to want children. See that is what frightens me, and that is the whole reason I made this thread.

Most people want to get married, it seems, and many settle down and have kids. (Not sure of the percentage of kid-less marriages.) So when I might suggest "most women want children," that's really "most people want to get married and most end up having kids." That's men AND women, not just women.

(EDIT: Just found this:
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/dec/08/nation/la-na-childless-couples-20131208
Looks like the number of married women without children went up within the last decade -- it's now up to 6% from 4.5%. But that means 94% of married women have kids. But doesn't that also say the same for the men? These women are married to SOMEONE.)

I guess the question is, would you read the same vibes off any woman you'd be interested in dating? Are the vibes in them? Or is it your perception of them? Or do most people have pro-kids feelings... or mixed feelings that you could read as pro-kids? Just because a woman might want kids doesn't mean she will. I tend to regret ANYTHING I don't end up doing, because it's a kind of loss. If I hadn't had kids, I would have probably regretted it... yet at the same time I'm capable of regretting having them in the sense that it used up a lot of my prime energy and years and money and whatever else, that I might have spent being more flexible and having more freedom to pursue other things.

I guess I'm saying just because you perceive she might regret on one level not having kids, it doesn't mean she would still choose to have them. People regret a lot... and sometimes contradictory things.

To summarize all that, what matters is what she chooses to do (or not)... not necessarily what she "regrets."

I'm actually nodding in agreement as I am reading all this, but you stated (and I hate to get all male ego on you) that there are rational reasons for procreation. I was asking you to provide of an example of one.

I'm not sure why you are asking me. It's a simple matter of brainstorming why human beings might procreate. There's nothing I can say that you wouldn't have thought of already and apparently discounted. *shrug* Or things that seem rational and that you'd probably say were just instinct and/or convention.

I'll accept that but I put that more along the lines of evolutionary instinct. Forgive me for being a teenage drama queen here, but if everything must die, why bring it into existence in the first place? All emotional and biological reasons, right?

Why fret over this woman wanting to have kids -- you can just dump her if nothing matters. Why try to have a relationship at all? Why not just decide to be single? Why not just kill yourself? Why should your parents have had you in the first place if nothing matters? Why are you asking for advice or caring enough to bounce ideas off the forum?

I mean, I'm not trying to be a smartass, I'm taking it seriously. If you want to take it to that level, why bother with anything? I asked the same kinds of questions, and was left with either just ending my life or playing it out and seeing what meaning I could create for myself.

And sometimes life is sweet. I figure if I'm dead, there's nothing; but right now I have something, which sometimes is good. So I keep going.

(I appreciate your investment in the conversation, I hope this isn't coming off adversarial. I find your perspective interesting, and you seem pretty intelligent and have a good sense of humor.)

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Maybe all men eventually want women to have kids, as well?
generalisation time

 

[DaDaMan]

There are two kinds of women: those who want kids, and those who want kids.

 

[Latte]

Combine them and you get a man. Combine that man with another man and you get gay marriage. Combine the gay marriage with a hetero marriage and you get a boat. Now, drive that boat into a surfer and the dead surfer will be eaten by a shark that can be combined with another shark that when cut in half, becomes a woman who wants kids and a woman who does not want kids.

 

[bemused]

@ jennywockey- 'investment' may be a bit too strong of a word lol. You just seem like really nice in your replies when you could have easily dismissed me by simply and succinctly saying: "You're an idiot- either you have a fear of intimacy or your repressing your homosexual feelings and subconsciously sabotaging a relationship before even begins - grow up asshole".

And despite my nihilistic overtones- I wasn't saying that 'nothing matters'. I mean I have this heavy emotional attachment to my music collection; it is this meticulously organized thing of beauty. If anything ever happen to it I would be devastated. But what is it really? It's just a collection of vinyl's and cds and digital files. I can't take them with me in death. So why do I care so much about them? There is no logical reason, it purely a sentimental and emotional one. They are important to me as a living breathing human being.

Now-I know what my very teenage goth-like question sounded like, and frankly it did deserve a smart ass response. But what I was trying to get to is- if life is suffering and struggle (we all can agree to that) what is a logical and rational reason (remember you did say there are 'rational' reasons for having children) for willfully bringing another human being in the world to experience the same human dread when they're just going to die eventually anyway?

You could argue that suffering and struggle and hardship in life is what gives us our character and provides us meaning, but then you look around the world, contemplate the meaning of life, the intricacies the universe, and think about death and come to the same conclusion that a 15 year old goth girl locked in her room blasting the Cure came to: "Life is bullshit".

But then as an adult you can say: "Well, since I am here, might as well make the most of it".

People have kids for all the reasons you mentioned and NONE of them are based in logic.

Come to think of it- I bet most kids are born purely as a result of carnal urges. In other words: their parents were just horny.

 

[Jennywocky]

@ jennywockey- 'investment' may be a bit too strong of a word lol. You just seem like really nice in your replies when you could have easily dismissed me by simply and succinctly saying: "You're an idiot- either you have a fear of intimacy or your repressing your homosexual feelings and subconsciously sabotaging a relationship before even begins - grow up asshole".

Lol! Well, would that be more effective?

Honestly, that bit never crossed my mind... mainly because you sound open-minded in your posting style and able to acknowledge any flimsy parts of your own views, so... I figured you must legitimately be hung up. More information could help you resolve the matter, rather than a verbal pummeling.

But it ain't like I've got "the answers," i just have my own experience and that's all. I mean, there's some pretty legitimate things in what you're saying.

And despite my nihilistic overtones- I wasn't saying that 'nothing matters'. I mean I have this heavy emotional attachment to my music collection; it is this meticulously organized thing of beauty. If anything ever happen to it I would be devastated. But what is it really? It's just a collection of vinyl's and cds and digital files. I can't take them with me in death. So why do I care so much about them? There is no logical reason, it purely a sentimental and emotional one. They are important to me as a living breathing human being.

Yeah. I have the same attachment to some things of mine, but really it's all dust and dross.... just like I will be some day.

Now-I know what my very teenage goth-like question sounded like, and frankly it did deserve a smart ass response. But what I was trying to get to is- if life is suffering and struggle (we all can agree to that) what is a logical and rational reason (remember you did say there are 'rational' reasons for having children) for willfully bringing another human being in the world to experience the same human dread when they're just going to die eventually anyway?

Well, don't read too much into my statement a few posts ago about "rational" reasons -- I was making a broad-brush comment... if you consider things like biological imperative, preserving the human race, fulfilling a desire you have for happiness if you would happen to be happier with kids, wanting to pass down your knowledge and traits of yourself, seeking some kind of intimacy, etc. Maybe the premises are ultimately not rational if everything dies, but they can be derived rationally from those awkward premises. (e.g., if you accept that you have chosen to live, then it's rational to maximize your own satisfaction and enjoyment and competion in a way that justifies that choice, correct?)

But that doesn't mean I haven't wondered about it. Sometimes I wonder if I'd have been happier not being born, but that's a rather pointless question because there would be no "I" to be happier or sadder if I didn't exist. For whatever reason, I have life; so everything starts from there. But I've wondered if I've cursed my children by bringing them into existence. I guess I'd be in a pretty horrible state if I believed that my providing them life was a cruel and terrible thing; how could I live with myself? I guess that, despite any fear, disappointment, sadness, or pain they might experience, they're generally happy to be alive, and when I observe their joy in living, it kind of makes the other questions negligible.

IOW, we ask all these kinds of abstracted, existential questions, but it's all "drunk talk in the bar" when it comes down to rubber-meets-the-road experience: Are my kids happy to be alive? It certainly seems to be the case. So ... the actual transcends the conjecture in that case.

You could argue that suffering and struggle and hardship in life is what gives us our character and provides us meaning, but then you look around the world, contemplate the meaning of life, the intricacies the universe, and think about death and come to the same conclusion that a 15 year old goth girl locked in her room blasting the Cure came to: "Life is bullshit".

Well, there's a reason it's usually 15 year olds blasting the Cure in their rooms who come to that conclusion -- you're basically in the middle of reaching for autonomy but still heavily within the power of others who you might not agree with, and being forced to make decisions about your future for years to come -- and none of the options are what you wanted nor seem to make sense, because the world is a fucking asylum run by the patients. You're still in the early stages of grappling with existential reality, the arbitrary nature of the system, your inability to escape it, etc... and only a few years ago, you were playing Hungry Hungry Hippo and happily eating PB&J sandwiches for lunch, and when you were five, you probably thought your parents were god and Santa existed and things made sense and then found out otherwise.

Yeah, that's enough to blow any 15-year-old mind.

But then as an adult you can say: "Well, since I am here, might as well make the most of it".

Yeah, eventually you come to terms with it or you kill yourself or you withdraw from society or some other. And it's not always, "Oh, sigh, I guess I might as well just make the most of it," sometimes it's like, "Well, hey, I thought that would suck, but it ended up actually being kinda cool. Let's do that again." And so you start constructing a life you actually realize you enjoy, even if you're creating your life around you.

Come to think of it- I bet most kids are born purely as a result of carnal urges. In other words: their parents were just horny.

Can't argue with that one.

 

[The Void]

 

[r4ch3l]

Many don't when they are younger. I know I definitely did not. But now that I've entered my late 20s I watch myself and the females around my age changing. I definitely think it's a fear-of-missing-out thing (we at least want the option; the ability to even have the option diminishes with age).

For me thinking about having children always leads back to thinking about mortality and value and all these things that have nothing to do with love or nurturing. Either I'm really immature or really honest. I don't know whether this is normal or if other people are just lying about their not-so-pretty motivations.

 

[Jennywocky]

Well, I've met other women who really seem to be in love with kids and having kids... but I'm not really one of them, so they confuse me. I've watched them long-term (friendships over years) and it seems to be authentic to me, but... I don't really get it.

In those circles of women who gush over live babies or baby pictures? Well, I find them cute, but not enough to gush and I quickly get bored. I've tended to like my kids more and more the older they get (closer to adulthood), and the best part about them being young was observing them learning about the world -- so I guess I'm still a scientist/lab researcher at heart.

 

[bemused]

Honestly, that bit never crossed my mind

I take it you're not a city girl with a degree in pop psychology?

Anyway- I think an existential crisis of a teen is different from a twenty-something PHD student that quits life because he discovered determinism, which of course is different from a middle-age guy that buys a sports car and bangs that hot blonde waitress in at hooters.

the first group is hormonal, angsty, and hate their parents. The second group are making a transition into adulthood and struggle with the genuine meaningless of life. The third group are hormonal, angsty, and are sick of their wives and kids and job.

Eventually a lot of folks comes to the same gloomy realization that all the self-indulgent teenagers do - life is kinda crappy. It's interesting, because studies have shown that older folks that are staring death in the face are reported to be much happier than the general population.

Again- this is all coming from a fairly comfortable, white middle class POV- much of the world doesn't have time for an 'existential crisis'. they're more worried surviving- wars, disease, rape, genocide, filth is what much of humanity as to endure.

(I know I'm kind of rambling here) but is it so crazy not to want to bring a human being into this world- even if it would provide some sense of happiness, joy and meaning to ones life? Don't me wrong- there is a lot of good in the world, and a lot of enjoyable things....but in the grand scheme of things, if one has the choice- is life worth it?


IMO I think there is a difference between wanting to die, and wishing one was never born.

 

[kaelum]

I'm 30, my biological clock is ticking, all our friends have moved on, and we're stuck in this wretched overpriced apartment - we do nothing but kvetch about the world, lie around watching netflix, and you're always high. I'm sick of it. I want move to the suburbs, you know? I want to take my kids to Disney world and to the beach, I want to go for walks at night without hte fear of being raped or mugged. It's time for us to grow up"!

....

Anyway-so is the evolutionary desire to breed too strong, or can reason triumph.

*shrugs* Evolutionary desire has more leverage with women than men because of the biological clock. Women need to decide to have children before age 35 (to avoid stuff like Down's syndrome). Men have a much longer time to change their mind on not having kids.

Take it this way: Even if a woman doesn't want kids, she might still decide to have kids before 35 years in order to avoid regretting not having kids in the future when it is too late. (I know I'm writing something far-fetched, but I think it's plausible).

It's inherently unfair, but there it is.

 

[Jennywocky]

I take it you're not a city girl with a degree in pop psychology?

I grew up as a poor little rural girl with her nose stuck in books when she wasn't out climbing trees and running around barefoot.

Anyway- I think an existential crisis of a teen is different from a twenty-something PHD student that quits life because he discovered determinism, which of course is different from a middle-age guy that buys a sports car and bangs that hot blonde waitress in at hooters.

the first group is hormonal, angsty, and hate their parents. The second group are making a transition into adulthood and struggle with the genuine meaningless of life. The third group are hormonal, angsty, and are sick of their wives and kids and job.

Heh. The cycle comes back around, don't it?

history is a circle, an endless coil of expanding spirals.

Eventually a lot of folks comes to the same gloomy realization that all the self-indulgent teenagers do - life is kinda crappy. It's interesting, because studies have shown that older folks that are staring death in the face are reported to be much happier than the general population.

I think there's something to be said with accepting the realities of life.

Usually bitterness comes when you can't get what you want but thought you could get. Sometimes that's because you've been ripped off, sometimes it's because you never could have what you thought anyway.

Coming to grips with reality and developing some reasonable expectations -- or even tossing away expectations altogether and just taking things as they come -- seems to increase the happiness ratio. hence, the old farts -> happiness observation, they've come to terms hopefully.

Again- this is all coming from a fairly comfortable, white middle class POV- much of the world doesn't have time for an 'existential crisis'. they're more worried surviving- wars, disease, rape, genocide, filth is what much of humanity as to endure.

Yeah, aint' that the truth. I'm not sure "progress" has helped all of us be happier -- it just gives some people more awareness of their misery and time to wallow in it.

(I know I'm kind of rambling here) but is it so crazy not to want to bring a human being into this world- even if it would provide some sense of happiness, joy and meaning to ones life? Don't me wrong- there is a lot of good in the world, and a lot of enjoyable things....but in the grand scheme of things, if one has the choice- is life worth it?

Is there any answer to that?
I mean, that's what we each need to decide.
It's more of a choice of what you conclude is worth believing, not an "objective answer."

Anybody could give you their answer, but if you think they're wrong, then ... well, you still have your answer, I suppose.

IMO I think there is a difference between wanting to die, and wishing one was never born.

I've experienced both.

 

[bemused]

But now that I've entered my late 20s I watch myself and the females around my age changing. I definitely think it's a fear-of-missing-out thing

Do you view married women your age who have kids to be generally happier than their childless counterparts?

is there any underlying envy or thought process that thinks "I wish I had that"?

 

[bemused]

've experienced both.

Me too, me too.

 

[Jennywocky]

Do you view married women your age who have kids to be generally happier than their childless counterparts?

It depends on what people fill their time with and how they direct their affections. If you're talking about women who don't have kids and have nothing else in their lives, then sure, they might be less happy. But if a woman has decided to not have kids and has found other things in life to direct that energy at (and thus find fulfillment), then she will still be happy.

is there any underlying envy or thought process that thinks "I wish I had that"?

Not really, that I know of, nothing that explicit. Women my age are typically kidless because they have chosen to be; if not, they're done the foster kid or the adoption thing.

I do have one friend who does like kids and I think is great with them, but she feels that she would be a neglectful mother if she ever had children. So she has purposefully chosen to not have kids. She's definitely one of those "perfect aunts." I suspect at times she might feel a little remorse because it's not like she hates children; but she actively made her decision for sound reasons, in terms of her own ability to parent, and so she's okay with it and isn't going to change her mind.