A flaw (or benefit) I notice in INTPs - Mental Abstraction

[bantwon]

Reading INTP posts, I notice that arguments are "off" a bit. (I will be phrasing in absolutes for simplicity, but I only mean 'this is at least slightly more common in INTPs than other types, so, I am characterizing and analyzing the trend.) By "off" I mean the post contains errors or misunderstandings that need correcting. The errors seem based on a vast but abstract and superficial understanding of reality, coupled with a desire to weave a web between things, and an open-mindedness toward humoring completely new (possibly crazy) ideas.

This is both dysfunctional and beneficial. It is dysfunctional because it isn't intended to be functional. The process of gaining functional understanding is far more arduous and boring than gaining abstract understanding. The INTP seems more interested in answering an abstract answer and moving on to new thoughts. However, if one truly tests themselves and competes in a knowledge skill to completion, they find out it is harder than they thought, questions arise which they didn't realize existed. You don't think of the concavity of a pelvic bone until you're pressed to actually finish a page of that manga you're drawing and the pose just doesn't look right at 2 am, as a very limited example. Details like these are glossed over and taken for granted when abstracting things to a simplicity required to connect reality together in ones head (a favorite pastime of INTPs, I understand)

To summarize, INTPs try to abstract vast knowledge without becoming functional (competative skilled experts) in the knowledge.

While this is a criticism, it is also a benefit. Humans have limited resources (time and mental) and abstraction is a huge task. While other types don't bother, and become more functional in one area, the INTPs are willing to dive into the seemingly insurmountable task. This takes an egolessness, because one will usually have errors in their results, but it doesn't matter because a conversation or debate can weed them out, and instead of being insulted, the INTP is happy to have advanced closer to the truth.

I welcome affirmation, refinement, and criticism toward this expression of my intuitive feelings based on my gathered perceptions on this matter.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Are you sure your observations are of INTPs, since the bulk of the active membership actually isn't INTP?

What about using Jungian cognitive functions or position of various functions in the functional stack as opposed to MBTI type?

Are you factoring in interpersonal dynamics, historic interactions, lurking, private interactions, and the static nature of cognition?

Are your observations generalizable to thought patterns or interactions outside of this forum?

Have you triangulated, or might you suffer from the very bias you criticize?

Have you factored in some member's propensity to edit their posts ad nausem?



*takes the waffle and applies peanut butter*

 

[bantwon]

Are you sure your observations are of INTPs, since the bulk of the active membership actually isn't INTP?

Are you factoring in interpersonal dynamics, historic interactions, and the static nature of cognition?

Have you triangulated, or might you suffer from the very bias you criticize?



*takes the waffle and applies peanut butter*

I do think I have mentally filtered my observation to correlate with INTPs, though I can't prove it, so if you disagree I cannot provide more to sway you than a trust in my perception.
I didn't know cognition had a static nature, isn't it a process? After cognition, static results are memorized, but that is after cognition.
I cant find a definition of triangulated (other than a GPS usage)
I am INTP so this applies to me too, yes.
I have infinity waffles feel free to utilize them.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

I do think I have mentally filtered my observation to correlate with INTPs, though I can't prove it, so if you disagree I cannot provide more to sway you than a trust in my perception.
I didn't know cognition had a static nature, isn't it a process? After cognition, static results are memorized, but that is after cognition.

The general idea is that sometimes one is on top of things while other times they aren't. xNTPs especially tend to fluctuate between flow and apathy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)#Conditions_for_flow

I cant find a definition of triangulated (other than a GPS usage)

Generally it means to verify through multiple angles (which you're attempting to do with this thread).

I have infinity waffles feel free to utilize them.

Allz of ur waffles iz belong to me!


Essentially I think you describe a problem experienced by all types, though it may be more prevalent in xNTPs and is likely associated with Ne for that specific MBTI subgroup. ENTPs like myself experience it more. Cognitive dissonance and the like.

 

[BigApplePi]

thehabitatdoctor. I want to make this observation. Your links (I'm thinking of any number of threads) are good and often right on the mark. But often they are so vast that I can't be conversational about them if I'm lazy ... which I might be ... don't know. Is that intentional on your part? That is, are you satisfied if they make your statement and no replies are given?

 

[BigApplePi]

bantwon. I wrote a reply and forgot to post it. So here's a rewrite.

Reading INTP posts, I notice that arguments are "off" a bit. (I will be phrasing in absolutes for simplicity, but I only mean 'this is at least slightly more common in INTPs than other types, so, I am characterizing and analyzing the trend.) By "off" I mean the post contains errors or misunderstandings that need correcting. The errors seem based on a vast but abstract and superficial understanding of reality, coupled with a desire to weave a web between things, and an open-mindedness toward humoring completely new (possibly crazy) ideas.

This is both dysfunctional and beneficial.

I think you're onto to something. Do you have an example(s) of what you are talking about here? Your statements are so general I can't get a hold of what (lack of Si) what you're on about with the result what I read must be "off a bit" from what you have in mind. What errors? What misunderstandings?

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

thehabitatdoctor. I want to make this observation. Your links (I'm thinking of any number of threads) are good and often right on the mark. But often they are so vast that I can't be conversational about them if I'm lazy ... which I might be ... don't know. Is that intentional on your part? That is, are you satisfied if they make your statement and no replies are given?

Uh oh...

It's not my goal to not get responses, but when I do that it's generally something I understand in a flash, which I automatically tend to use as a foundation to build deductive structures of data, thoughts, and possibilities. This is why I made the compendium, because it's all coming together into something that's easier to manage outside of my head and physically in front of me.

I often want feedback for the purpose of refinement (basically the subject of the OP), and a lot of what you see is me actively forming a holistic (or at least more holistic) understanding. Usually, I intuitively know an axiom, but need to run a structure of thoughts through the gauntlet in order to flesh out it's complexity.

The same mechanism works in reverse as well. Instead of building structures, they can be torn down using possibilities (see post #2).

One problem of mine is lack of immediate follow through (for example, I've been adding to my understanding of economics off and on since May, but haven't posted it yet because it's still a work in progress, and I currently owe Minuend a pm, among other neglected threads), but I've been in a flow state as of late, so...

 

[Jennywocky]

To summarize, INTPs try to abstract vast knowledge without becoming functional (competative skilled experts) in the knowledge.

Big-picture thinking serves a purpose, but it does not a surgeon make. It has limitations, especially in practical application. I think it's common for abstract thinkers to believe they understand something in totality, when the experience itself would leave them floundering; the details aren't there to apply, if the principles aren't sufficient enough to guide action.

The flaw with experience is that it tends to miss exceptions or draws conclusions from limited data sets, and it will miss connections that might have provided insight or even additional application.

This takes an egolessness, because one will usually have errors in their results, but it doesn't matter because a conversation or debate can weed them out, and instead of being insulted, the INTP is happy to have advanced closer to the truth.

Agreed.

I welcome affirmation, refinement, and criticism toward this expression of my intuitive feelings based on my gathered perceptions on this matter.

Wow. Couldn't you just have said, "Feedback appreciated"?

I'd like a waffle now. Thanks.

 

[bantwon]

Well, as a very simple example, I taught physics in graduate school and feel my intuition is a competitive skill there, so I can come across a post on someone's theory of the multiverse and pick up on a lot of misdefinitions and superficial connections on their post, which nobody notices, or like me doesn't feel like explaining complex things to the person. I still like the adventure of humoring their new insights and perhaps trying to make them work, even though I pick up on the 'trait' I'm trying to describe (boldly abstracting knowledge which one isn't skillfully functional in). I notice this in other topics I have arduously introspected in (sociology/physiology/language) too, combining enough to illicit the expression of the feeling here.

The feeling is significant because I hold myself to this value of 'functional knowledge' strongly, and try to avoid being a 'collector' of superficial knowledge and understanding, mainly out of fear that I will forget which knowledge I truly know functionally, and which I heard on a NOVA special and never arduously introspected on. This is rooted in a general distrust of common beliefs.

 

[bantwon]

Wow. Couldn't you just have said, "Feedback appreciated"?

I'd like a waffle now. Thanks.

lol, I suppose. People surprise me with the creative ways they misinterpret me when I am vague and open to interpretation, plus I like the vividness of detailed verbosity, even though it sounds goofy. It's sort of tongue-in-cheek goofing off to me to write overly flowery words.

 

[MissQuote]

While this is a criticism, it is also a benefit. Humans have limited resources (time and mental) and abstraction is a huge task. While other types don't bother, and become more functional in one area, the INTPs are willing to dive into the seemingly insurmountable task. This takes an egolessness, because one will usually have errors in their results, but it doesn't matter because a conversation or debate can weed them out, and instead of being insulted, the INTP is happy to have advanced closer to the truth.

I find this to be fairly accurate.

I notice most often my own errors only once I am in discussion with another, and I do not usually become despondent over those errors, but rather cheerful to have noticed them or had them pointed out, especially if new information I had not considered before is being presented to add into my understanding of the topic at hand.

Yet, at the same time I also frequently hesitate to post here, or discuss in person with people, the thoughts I have on matters and subjects because I am not confident I have everything correct in my understanding.

Don't speak up because I don't understand enough of a subject yet, but when I do speak up because I think I get it well enough I am nearly always pleased, rather that annoyed, to find there is more I hadn't considered. weird loop.

Did someone say something about waffles?

 

[Nick]

Did someone say something about waffles?

Well, I just got back from Vermont, let me tell you what their syrup tastes like on the waffles I ate.

Also you've just made your 1000th post, that should instill a bit of confidence from within.


bantwon, I'd say we're pretty good at 'connecting the dots', for whatever the topic is at hand. Even if the dots are few and far between.

 

[Jennywocky]

lol, I suppose. People surprise me with the creative ways they misinterpret me when I am vague and open to interpretation, plus I like the vividness of detailed verbosity, even though it sounds goofy. It's sort of tongue-in-cheek goofing off to me to write overly flowery words.

I know. it WAS quite lovely.

 

[Coolydudey]

I f*** up my exams despite knowing the theory (and being more intelligent at the given subjects than most), simply because I think 41+17=68.. That, is enough said.

 

[bantwon]

I f*** up my exams despite knowing the theory (and being more intelligent at the given subjects than most), simply because I think 41+17=68.. That, is enough said.

That's not enough said, because there was not enough context for me to understand why that connects with this thread or why you think it is 68 :/

 

[Rikki Riziati]

lol, I suppose. People surprise me with the creative ways they misinterpret me when I am vague and open to interpretation, plus I like the vividness of detailed verbosity, even though it sounds goofy. It's sort of tongue-in-cheek goofing off to me to write overly flowery words.

I agree with this statement completely. I will admit that I can't mash away at my keyboard and have an elegant collage of words appear in front of me without some mental pauses. Even so, I do enjoy reading the posts of those who can accomplish that. It's comforting to know that there are living individuals who can spell words correctly and use them in an orderly fashion to debate. We've all see the Facebook debates where an insult usually consists of one or two words shorter than five letters and less than two syllables.

 

[Sorlaize]

I definitely notice this is my own thinking; I just end up spending more time on it to compensate.. yes there are some situations where practical knowledge really prepares you for taking everything into account. And it's the perfect complement to a lot of abstract thinking. I struggle with "thinking like other people" and actually this is apparently a key aspect of advanced game design according to this book by Jesse Schell. I realize it's a huge limitation of my thinking. But I'm working around this, see.. there's things I can do.

I can construct models (programming is just such a great example.. for thinking it helps a huge amount, too) like building a simple virtual economy, and I can relate theories about game characters; believability; economics to that model and the interactions and problems the model presents me with.

Another thing is, for the types of thinking I want to be doing, I can just try to explain it in full detail. Completing a theory (of the mind/psychology for example) gives you other areas to think about. I actually have no set limits myself i.e. "sociology"; "psychology"; "physics" .. I'd thought about everything for as long as I can remember. And now that I have a theory of existence I've started to organize the concepts and I realize "oh wait look.. this concept actually belongs as a child of this one.." e.g. "self identity" emerges from "experience".. the ordering prompts me with NEW challenges.

Another.. I often challenge myself by talking like I'm lecturing a class (in my room) .. and just going on and on. And it prompts me with problems or new ways to think. It has a spontaneous factor to it. I've done this for about 5 years now and it's amazing.


I really want to change my thinking. Only recently did I learn about the left and right brain. I'm looking for new ways to challenge and prompt myself so I can tackle new whole areas of thinking. So for example "what causes people to turn away when they finish talking with someone" .. whole new thing. Taking examples from the real world and applying theories has been a great help. I go on a walk and prompt myself with what I see. This lets me strengthen my theories because I always approach them critically.

I know for drawing/animation you're supposed to just keep practicing and trying new things. If you're not doing practical art.. a digital artist called it "intellectual masturbation". Random tip.. it's great to have a strong visual library. (examples to influence your work) .. for fighting Bruce Lee says to visualize the enemy attacking and work out how to defend. BUT TODAY WE HAVE COMPUTERS!! IT'S SUCH AN OPPORTUNITY!!! Chris Crawford is probably exploding by now.

 

[Words]

If there is an order in things or if the universe makes sense, then it should be simplifiable. If theres an idea thats meant to simplify and yet it fails because it doesn't sufficiently take account of certain details, then it is simply an invalid idea and the INTP only needs to make a better model of the situation. The area with the least visible order is social order, humans don't act as predictable as nature.

 

[nightstreaking]

@bantwon This made me laugh. I like philosophy (if one can "like" philosophy), so sometimes I mess around and read Kierkegaard or go to Youtube to listen to Zizek tell anecdotes involving coffee and toilets. (Academic/formal) philosophy is perceived as difficult for a reason, and despite the pleasure of gaining some obscure insights here and there, I am not part of the group of people who can wield terms like "the Other" and use it twelve times in a sentence with varying definitions while still making sense.

Gaining functional knowledge affords a role, but as you said, "it is dysfunctional because it isn't intended to be functional." The reluctance to specialize and go in-depth may partly be due to the realization that it'd be confining (in terms of identity and effort). There isn't enough time to satisfy the demands of every discipline or project you're curious about (and so potentially intend to master). But then again, this might just be personal. I always want to know the motives behind an argument/observation, and I was curious about yours. You don't express your judgment of this tendency. The process is functional or valid because it continuously occurs and allows for contingencies such as egolessness and acceptance of error, but there doesn't seem to be a purpose for it.

 

[Sorlaize]

It really annoys me when people will only talk about one issue in response to a news article. The world needs the bigger picture shoved in their face.

 

[Architect]

Best example of this I've seen is a clips of Paul Wolfowitz at a Senate hearing years ago. They were debating something important - the Iraq war I think - and he starts in on an academic discussion of the nature of war (or something like that). Rumsfeld and others practically fell over themselves shushing him up, they must be used to it. Wolfwowitz is surely an INTP. I contain this pretty well I think from a working lifetime of being in an engineering environment, but I've been accused of doing it (just once, on this board, by a non INTP.)

You should consider the opposite however, a situation I'm far to frequently in with my Sensor coworkers, which is diving in and discussing some stupid detail in painful reiteration. Mention anything - any problem - and these guys immediately huddle and try to figure out how to solve it. Horribly frustrating and a time waster, as it gets painfully wrought over by too many people. The more trivial the problem the more attention it gets.

 

[Late2theParty]

To summarize, INTPs try to abstract vast knowledge without becoming functional (competative skilled experts) in the knowledge.

"The map is not the territory. The menu is not the meal"

I agree that this can be an issue. I know it has especially been one for me. I struggled in math class despite never feeling like I didn't understand the overall concepts. I would watch the lectures and be like "Oh that makes sense, I get it". But then when I would actually sit down and try do problems and take the tests.... I could never get more than a C. I would make too many silly errors. I didn't have the skill of actually working through all the variations of the problems in the real world.

It's a big issue for me with a lot of my hobbies as well. Especially music composition and martial arts. With music composition I don't feel like I truly understand how certain musical concepts work unless I can improvise them with consistent results. This takes forever and is very reptitious / boring to go through the process of internalizing them so my INTP-ness wants to reject doing that. But at the same time it knows that it doesn't truly understand and wants to... so it's a constant struggle. I ran away from the thought of having to really practice and internalize for years. I thought I could get everything I needed from my head but I was wrong. Once I begrudgingly accepted that, I feel a lot better about it and I feel like I'm gaining much more "real" knowledge. But it still bothers me.

Similar thing with martial arts. I'll put somebody in a move and inside I'll be like "there is no way they can now escape from this or counter this" only to have some subtle thing happen I never imagined that makes it all fall apart.

I think an INTP is truly formidable when they have access to a ton of information in order to make the proper deductions, AND they can pressure test these deductions. Or if you could somehow get a think tank team / scenario going, with some other types that would help fill the gaps.

 

[Duxwing]

"The map is not the territory. The menu is not the meal"

I agree that this can be an issue. I know it has especially been one for me. I struggled in math class despite never feeling like I didn't understand the overall concepts. I would watch the lectures and be like "Oh that makes sense, I get it". But then when I would actually sit down and try do problems and take the tests.... I could never get more than a C. I would make too many silly errors. I didn't have the skill of actually working through all the variations of the problems in the real world.

It's a big issue for me with a lot of my hobbies as well. Especially music composition and martial arts. With music composition I don't feel like I truly understand how certain musical concepts work unless I can improvise them with consistent results. This takes forever and is very reptitious / boring to go through the process of internalizing them so my INTP-ness wants to reject doing that. But at the same time it knows that it doesn't truly understand and wants to... so it's a constant struggle. I ran away from the thought of having to really practice and internalize for years. I thought I could get everything I needed from my head but I was wrong. Once I begrudgingly accepted that, I feel a lot better about it and I feel like I'm gaining much more "real" knowledge. But it still bothers me.

Similar thing with martial arts. I'll put somebody in a move and inside I'll be like "there is no way they can now escape from this or counter this" only to have some subtle thing happen I never imagined that makes it all fall apart.

I think an INTP is truly formidable when they have access to a ton of information in order to make the proper deductions, AND they can pressure test these deductions. Or if you could somehow get a think tank team / scenario going, with some other types that would help fill the gaps.

An XNTP-ISFJ pair would be truly formidable in a debate: the XNTP would think circles around the team's opponents while the ISFJ would keep him/her supplied with an endless supply of facts, practical knowledge, and personal experience, along with emotional readings of the gallery and opposing team.

-Duxwing

 

[viche]

I'm not an INTP and I do this. I noticed that everyone does this to certain extent -- as such everyone lives in a bubble saturated with their own personal delusions.

Of course some individuals show greater propensity for this than others. When a person has vast life experience and friends to debate with who will challenge his view points, then they will have more solid basis for their understanding and won't fall prey to derealization.

Reading INTP posts, I notice that arguments are "off" a bit. (I will be phrasing in absolutes for simplicity, but I only mean 'this is at least slightly more common in INTPs than other types, so, I am characterizing and analyzing the trend.) By "off" I mean the post contains errors or misunderstandings that need correcting. The errors seem based on a vast but abstract and superficial understanding of reality, coupled with a desire to weave a web between things, and an open-mindedness toward humoring completely new (possibly crazy) ideas.