Would you be satisfied with a purely menial job?

[JPS]

I certainly would. One of the things I strive for is exterior simplicity. I don't need stuff, or a high pay.

Being a menial would also give me time to think about what I want to think about.

What about you?

 

[Brontosaurie]

yes

it would appeal to me both in temperament and ideology

 

[TheManBeyond]

could you put examples of menial jobs please?

 

[JPS]

could you put examples of menial jobs please?

Say, working at a grocery store, as a waiter or waitress at a restaurant, at a patent office. Anything that involves little in the way of intellectual effort and is generally looked down upon.

 

[TheManBeyond]

For some time i would be satisfied but i suppose i will end up trying to destroy myself.
Hopefully someday i'll work in a cool library. :P
Or playing rock around the world.

 

[Pizzabeak]

Oh.. So that can be considered normal?

 

[TheManBeyond]

yes

edit: at least more likely to be free of stress

 

[StevenM]

Yes for me as well.

I actually really enjoy the independent aspect of custodial work. Most of the time, your left alone to your own devices, while you do the work.

I also don't mind stocking shelves at the grocery store at night. Usually just a small crew, and for the most part we keep to ourselves.

I have done tons of factory work, and while the job itself is mindless as fuck, I find it a great deal of a challenge navigating my way with my co-workers. From my experience, it would be more peaceful in a mental asylum.

 

[computerhxr]

Yes, it gives me plenty of time to think. I would prefer to be a box box than a cashier because of the distractions. Factory work is amazing for thinkers.

Yes for me as well ...

You beat me to it!

I have worked in several factories, in grocery stores, custodial, offices, fast food, etc... Probably over 50 different places just for the experience.

Custodial is the best. Office jobs suck. Working on a campus is great, but the polarity between management and engineers is often unbearable.

 

[Cherry Cola]

yes if it's easy and predictable

When you're super bored you can come up with great ideas too

 

[Pyropyro]

As long as it is a honest living then why not?

My stint would be just temporary though since I would use my unused mental energy for night school/adult classes after work.

 

[Architect]

No, absolutely not. I hated and was terrible at those jobs when I had them when I was younger. Not sure how one could think while trying to throw 75lb bales of hay on the back of a tractor, or clearing out brush in 100 degrees. Even the less menial ones like when I worked at a commercial hardware shop were as bad.

 

[dark+matters]

I certainly would. One of the things I strive for is exterior simplicity. I don't need stuff, or a high pay.

Being a menial would also give me time to think about what I want to think about.

What about you?

Never. Not in 100 million years. In principle, sure. I understood what Ghandi was saying when he suggested that everyone return to a simple life working with their hands. That sounds cool. But in practice, I have hated every single job I ever had that did not reward me for coming up with ways to solve a puzzle. And once that puzzle was solved, I had no interest in returning to it. That doesn't jive well with repetitive tasks. Then again, I am in career-limbo, back in school, so I might not be the best one to poll.

 

[Yellow]

Nope. I've had a ton of them. I can't handle spending 6-16 hours a day (menial jobs often have crazy long hours) doing the same thing over and over. I find it a little hard to believe that everyone saying "yes" has actually had a lot of experience with it.

- If it's especially physical, you get so tired that you simply cannot think at all by the time you get home.
- If it's customer-service oriented, you get burnt out by the constant interaction and the lack of alone-with-thoughts time.
- If it's factory work, you have to be so fast and accurate that you cannot afford to let your mind wander too far without risking your safety or your employment.

I struggle with career-jobs in that they lack challenge, and I go out of my way to seek out challenges. The lack of stimulation in menial work is almost unbearable.

 

[QuickTwist]

No, I know this from experience.

 

[JPS]

It's nice to see that the forum is split on this issue. It makes for interesting discussion.

I should clarify the difference between menial jobs that do take away a substantial amount of time and energy and those that don't. I certainly wouldn't be content with the former.

And although I don't have much experience with any of this (unless school counts), I'm sure I'd be ok with a job (such as custodial work) that essentially leaves the worker up to his own devices, as mentioned before. I would not be ok with a menial job that includes any of the things which Yellow listed: physical intensity, customer interaction, routine concentration. At least not over a long period of time.

As long as there's room to think I believe I'll have the opportunity of being who I want to be; I can create my own challenges; that in and of itself is a challenge.

 

[Vrecknidj]

If the pay was good or there were decent benefits, then yes. I have quite a few financial obligations, so, the pay/benefits matter more to me than the job itself.

 

[scenefinale]

No.

 

[QuickTwist]

No, absolutely not. I hated and was terrible at those jobs when I had them when I was younger. Not sure how one could think while trying to throw 75lb bales of hay on the back of a tractor, or clearing out brush in 100 degrees. Even the less menial ones like when I worked at a commercial hardware shop were as bad.

I wouldn't mind those kinds of menial jobs, I just hate stocking shelves and jobs like that. If it gives me a workout, I'm fine with it.

 

[Cherry Cola]

No, absolutely not. I hated and was terrible at those jobs when I had them when I was younger. Not sure how one could think while trying to throw 75lb bales of hay on the back of a tractor, or clearing out brush in 100 degrees. Even the less menial ones like when I worked at a commercial hardware shop were as bad.

Ugh, sucking at work really sucks. Makes you feel like such a piece of shit it's incredible. I was like the worst construction worker ever once. I wasn't handy for shit and I'd hang out with the Bosnians during lunch break because they didn't mind and we didn't understand each other anyway so there was no need for talk and shit. I really hated that job most of the time.

But sometimes you'd be given these really long and monotone but extremely simple tasks to perform. That's when it appealed to me. I'd be doing the same thing over and over while i was completely in my head. I was extremely bored, but that was the only problem I had. I would listen to audiobooks and music and I would sometimes get completely detached and just drift of in my head while my hands were working. Out of nowhere I'd come up with theories and ideas about all kinds of stuff, or songs would write themselves in my head. By my standards they were good theories and songs too. I could definitely see myself doing that again. It was kind of therapeutic. But I suppose that it's not something you would want to do for years though.

 

[Architect]

Ugh, sucking at work really sucks. Makes you feel like such a piece of shit it's incredible. ...

But sometimes you'd be given these really long and monotone but extremely simple tasks to perform. That's when it appealed to me.

Bringing type into it, what I found is that the S types were a million times better at the menial jobs. That stupid "bale bucking" job I did (getting and stacking bales of hay from the field to the barn) was with a bunch of slightly younger (18 versus my 24) guys who were going into boot camp shortly. They had the strength and the stamina to pull it off, whereas me=college boy was a wuss on the whole thing. Same thing with the office/woodshop hardware job. I just didn't have the attention to physical and mechanical detail the other guys had.

I agree with the sentiment though - I'm presently working on a highly speculative project. Basically my manager said "go figure out something cool". It's stressful in a way, because it's so open ended. A straightforward job, "go fix this bug or add this specific feature" is actually nice. You know exactly what you're doing, you can just buzz along and know the expectations and the goal, even though its not as interesting. Open ended projects are more uncomfortable.

 

[BrainVessel]

Depends on if it would provide adequate time and funding to pursue non-menial things.

 

[Reluctantly]

^ This. plus if it allows me to later do non-menial work, I could be somewhat satisfied knowing that I'm going to get something better later on, that it's a stepping stone.

 

[StevenM]

Ugh, sucking at work really sucks. Makes you feel like such a piece of shit it's incredible. I was like the worst construction worker ever once. I wasn't handy for shit and I'd hang out with the Bosnians during lunch break because they didn't mind and we didn't understand each other anyway so there was no need for talk and shit. I really hated that job most of the time.

In the factory, the job was so mindless, it was impossible to do it wrong.

Yet, even at 6 months in, I would still get a type-A 'ESTJ-like' nuisance barking and hollering about a completely pointless small detail.

I would probably be the worst construction worker ever also.

But sometimes you'd be given these really long and monotone but extremely simple tasks to perform. That's when it appealed to me. I'd be doing the same thing over and over while i was completely in my head. I was extremely bored, but that was the only problem I had. I would listen to audiobooks and music and I would sometimes get completely detached and just drift of in my head while my hands were working. Out of nowhere I'd come up with theories and ideas about all kinds of stuff, or songs would write themselves in my head. By my standards they were good theories and songs too. I could definitely see myself doing that again. It was kind of therapeutic. But I suppose that it's not something you would want to do for years though.

Same here dude. I came up with very elaborate ideas for stories, music, games, and indie film (and mostly a combination of them all) during the most boring hours of the job. I was overly ambitious to go home and get straight to work with these creations.

However, I got home, was too tired, and slept. Woke up for another shift at work, and continued the cycle.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Haha same here

 

[Jennywocky]

Depends on if it would provide adequate time and funding to pursue non-menial things.

Yeah. Similar to the experiences of others here, for me menial labor can be good or bad. If I can spend a lot of that time simultaneously creating stuff in my head / thinking through some things while operating in autopilot, then it's not bad and actually better than mentally taxing work that I don't care about. There's also something about doing work where you're not really responsible for much except basics; that's kind of a nice change of pace.

(Truck drivers, for example -- aside from getting your vehicle serviced and picking up/dropping loads, you get a lot of alone time on the road just to think. That's rather cool.)

But if it's physically/mentally draining so that I can't spend a lot of time thinking about what I like, then it would become hell. Anything that long-term runs against my need for big-picture impact and thinking outside the box / exploring is going to really demoralize me as time passes. I hate rut cycles that offer little of interest and just seem like one endless drudge.

I guess my current job is a nice blend -- crunch periods where I do become mentally exhausted, but then a lot of slow pace where I have a lot of free time to focus on other stuff. So it accommodates my ability for "burst performance" and then proceeds me a lot of flex in how I spend the rest of my time. The only issue is that long-term I don't care much about what I'm doing and so big-picture-wise it feels kind of a waste.

 

[Brontosaurie]

Bringing type into it, what I found is that the S types were a million times better at the menial jobs. That stupid "bale bucking" job I did (getting and stacking bales of hay from the field to the barn) was with a bunch of slightly younger (18 versus my 24) guys who were going into boot camp shortly. They had the strength and the stamina to pull it off, whereas me=college boy was a wuss on the whole thing. Same thing with the office/woodshop hardware job. I just didn't have the attention to physical and mechanical detail the other guys had.

I agree with the sentiment though - I'm presently working on a highly speculative project. Basically my manager said "go figure out something cool". It's stressful in a way, because it's so open ended. A straightforward job, "go fix this bug or add this specific feature" is actually nice. You know exactly what you're doing, you can just buzz along and know the expectations and the goal, even though its not as interesting. Open ended projects are more uncomfortable.

that's not S versus N.

it's academic versus physical labour and also a dash of you being arrogant about your work.

i did a super menial job with an ISTJ. he didn't do better. well i had some fuck-ups but overall his conservative nature slowed down the process and made it unnecessarily difficult.

your view of type is way simplistic. you're forgetting S traits like prestige-orientation and realism. S types can be better in something that you consider hallmark N, like a brain-storming session, because they've set the parameters while an N is (willingly or not) trying to transcend them. they're attuned to what works, they have an internal map of relevant facts and their connections, and they will use this information to generate solutions - motivated by the phenomenal and ontological priority and integrity which they ascribe to shit like social status and appearances, to which professional success is vital. the N is drifting. the N is unsure of the validity of the whole construct upon which relies the task at hand. the N isn't content with progress along a preset trajectory, and the little thrills of ephemeral uncertainty and apparent innovation along the way do not suffice to let the skeptical, discerning and holistic N pretend otherwise.

 

[gruesomebrat]

I've been working warehouse and factory jobs for the past few years. Forklift, material handling, shipping/receiving. Combines short periods of problem-solving (tetrising 60 skids into a 53 foot trailer) with long periods of repetitive boredom. As mentioned by others, those periods of repetition allow you plenty of time to think, which has been interesting.

That said, I'm seriously considering getting out of the warehouse environment and spending some time interacting with people. Warehouse work can be very solitary, which is great for extreme introverts, but I've been craving some social intellectual stimulation, and work hasn't been providing that.

 

[Puffy]

I think it sounds good to do while you're between places and working out your next steps, for x amount of time. I wouldn't want to do it indefinitely as it sounds like a waste of time if you could be spending the same hours doing work in which you're learning new things and acquiring new skills (if those skills are relevant to you anyway, and such options exist.)

That said, I have many friends who do 'menial' work and probably will indefinitely and I have nothing against that at all. I'm just a very ambitious person and couldn't see myself being happy doing it for very long if there were other options.

(I'm weak as fuck also: on cherry's chart, I would yield to the might of two 10 year olds. I've worked with my Mother's gardening firm, and worked on my neighbour's farm before, and both knackered me out. )

 

[Ex-User (11125)]

Say, working at a grocery store, as a waiter or waitress at a restaurant, at a patent office. Anything that involves little in the way of intellectual effort and is generally looked down upon.

omg no...too much interaction with people no no no

 

[Sockrates]

Fuck no. I have hated every job that I've held consisting of this definition. My goal is to do and be productive in this wonderful life that I am extremely fortunate to have. Big dreams of an INTJ here.

But at this point in time, where the world is at, I'd be okay with being a janitor. I'd be smarter than the people I work for and that would bother me so long as I am productive.

 

[peoplesuck]

I would be satisfied to be able to handle one of these jobs.
crippling social anxiety/not being able to deal with people

 

[Sockrates]

I would be satisfied to be able to handle one of these jobs.
crippling social anxiety/not being able to deal with people

You have social anxiety and you say people suck.

The problem resides within you, don't be so rash.

 

[peoplesuck]

did you think i was blaming others?
also: human history kind of proves that people tend to be unkind

It doesnt matter anyways, people will never be satisfied
;p

 

[Sockrates]

did you think i was blaming others?
also: human history kind of proves that people tend to be unkind

It doesnt matter anyways, people will never be satisfied
;p

I appeared that way, I was hypocritical. History is a great teacher. I must agree.

People shouldn't ever be satisfied. There's always room to grow.

 

[peoplesuck]

never settling is why we have progressed so much, agreed

 

[Sockrates]

never settling is why we have progressed so much, agreed

Good ol anxiety is what keeps me going... But I don't call it anxiety, I call it being human.

 

[The Oracle]

Say, working at a grocery store, as a waiter or waitress at a restaurant, at a patent office. Anything that involves little in the way of intellectual effort and is generally looked down upon.

As an aside, I feel compelled to defend a profession you referenced as involving "little [...] intellectual effort."

Waiters and waitresses cannot be intellectually dim and still perform well. Good servers have both intellect and empathy. Sure the profession is generally looked down upon, but there is no time to daydream. Ask any server, it is not the tasks that are unappealing, it is the customer. The ungrateful, rude, entitled customer. Because you can earn $20-$30/hr+ in some places (min wage +tips), you might find some really intelligent minds competing for these positions.

The grocery store counts as menial, but not comparable to restaurant server. A smart/creative mind will find ways to make any menial job more exciting. One could, for example, try to memorize the exact price of every item at the grocery store. Try to guess the total amount before scanning items.

It's rarely the menial-ness of the job that controls satisfaction, because all jobs eventually become menial. Novelty wears off all things inevitably. It is the compensation for doing the menial job that will make someone content or ecstatic to go to work tomorrow morning.

 

[Sockrates]

As an aside, I feel compelled to defend a profession you referenced as involving "little [...] intellectual effort."

Waiters and waitresses cannot be intellectually dim and still perform well. Good servers have both intellect and empathy. Sure the profession is generally looked down upon, but there is no time to daydream. Ask any server, it is not the tasks that are unappealing, it is the customer. The ungrateful, rude, entitled customer. Because you can earn $20-$30/hr+ in some places (min wage +tips), you might find some really intelligent minds competing for these positions.

The grocery store counts as menial, but not comparable to restaurant server. A smart/creative mind will find ways to make any menial job more exciting. One could, for example, try to memorize the exact price of every item at the grocery store. Try to guess the total amount before scanning items.

It's rarely the menial-ness of the job that controls satisfaction, because all jobs eventually become menial. Novelty wears off all things inevitably. It is the compensation for doing the menial job that will make someone content or ecstatic to go to work tomorrow morning.

That's true. I waited tables at a 4 star restaurant for about a year and would leave every night with a minimum of $200 after 6 hours of work. It was/is great money for a college student. It also helped me be able to speak with others in both a more formal and casual way, which has certainly benefited me throughout my short time.

 

[Analyzer]

I think this may be a solution for INTP's. The famous example is Einstein working in a patent office while he theorized relativity. It allowed him the time and energy to focus on his main interests. If you are in a high stress or intellectually demanding type job this will either drain you or set you on a different path. Although we are pressured by society to follow this route.

 

[Silent Sage]

Of course not, you'd be too busy working all the time to sustain yourself to pursue other ventures. Not to mention the lack of challenge wouldn't be stimulating in the slightest so I wouldn't be able to do it efficiently anyways. Ideally, I'd want decent pay and a lot of free time.

 

[Hadoblado]

Putting furniture together at ikea. I fucking love lego.

So long as I don't have to be around people while I do it. I need to be free to think about how to do things, but be allowed to let my mind wander when I know how to do things.

 

[EditorOne]

Just a couple of general thoughts that haven't already been expressed.

First, the problem with having too much time to think is that you can think your way into trouble.

Second, I'm hard put to remember any menial jobs I had that did not have a certain amount of Zen-like attitude on my part, mainly along the thinking lines of "how could this be done perfectly?" or "how could this be done differently?"

I have had those jobs, like Architect, when I was young, everything from collecting garbage, cleaning restrooms, raking leaves, chipping ice, (reducing 320-pound cakes down to 40-pound blocks), roofing, plus a bunch of work in trades like carpentry, plumbing and electrical which involved learning quite a bit so perhaps were not menial at all. Every job got analyzed, with suggestions for improvements that were sometimes accepted and other times were groaned at with a comment similar to "just pick up the goddamned garbage cans, whydoncha?" So eventually boredom sets in, and in the absence of ponderous thoughts, and in the presence of evil companions, much hellraising got planned and executed. Your mileage may differ, but the combination of menial work and evil companions produced a classic misspent youth. I really should have been dead or in jail a couple of times, simply got lucky with each toss of the dice. I was, of course, an undiagnosed INTP channeling all of it into the Rebel without a Clue format.

 

[dutchdisease]

No, absolutely not. I hated and was terrible at those jobs when I had them when I was younger. Not sure how one could think while trying to throw 75lb bales of hay on the back of a tractor, or clearing out brush in 100 degrees. Even the less menial ones like when I worked at a commercial hardware shop were as bad.

Ah a fellow farmer.