Why is Fe so tiring?

[Beat Mango]

I believe it's because when used, we are forced to cease all Ti activity. Nietzsche said that the hermit doesn't like to converse with people because it interrupts his internal dialogue.

What I like to do, then, and this is an adaptation of something I read from Adymus a while ago, is to have little Ti "breathers" every now and then while in conversation.

Pretty random I know, but just thought I'd share.

 

[MidnightGino]

Hmm not ceasing completely Ti activity while using Fe? I don't know, it seems that I can never shut up my Ti. Thus, having insomnia constantly, but that's not the point.

Oh and what would be life without randomness?

 

[BigApplePi]

Just take the introversion/extroversion part first. If one is an introvert and seeks to do whatever internal things, external jarring, external obligations/pressures interrupt who one is. Everyone has an enormous desire to do/be what one is, do they not?

 

[Ermine]

I believe it's because when used, we are forced to cease all Ti activity. Nietzsche said that the hermit doesn't like to converse with people because it interrupts his internal dialogue.

What I like to do, then, and this is an adaptation of something I read from Adymus a while ago, is to have little Ti "breathers" every now and then while in conversation.

Pretty random I know, but just thought I'd share.

I don't think it's a matter of ceasing Ti activity. I don't know about the rest of you Ti dominants, but I can't stop using Ti. It's just what I do, to some degree or other. The stress comes from trying to use Ti and Fe at once. This sort of doublethink can be really stressful unless you have a lot of practice, which comes with experience and age.

 

[Words]

Fe isn't only about "conversing". Articulation is a minor attachment to the inferior function. As a matter of fact, "conversing" for the INTP can be stimulating if within the right circumstances---information preference, mood etc. In other words, you can talk "theory talk".

TiNe 80 SiFe 10 as oppose to TiNe 10 SiFe 80.

Why the disinclination to social interaction? Because "social" carries values and rapid cattachments which is against and opposite of detached introverted exploration. INTP's do not prefer Fe because they prefer Ti.

If you remove "social" and "introversion", you'd have "exploratory interaction" (Te Ni Ne Ti), which is supposedly stimulating conversation.

Just take the introversion/extroversion part first. If one is an introvert and seeks to do whatever internal things, external jarring, external obligations/pressures interrupt who one is. Everyone has an enormous desire to do/be what one is, do they not?

Extroversion energizes Introversion. Introversion is done because of stimuli. Ne is main information stimulus. There is +- relationship but overall, Ne boosts Ti. Indeed, with extroversion, you hinder introversion. But introversion by itself doesn't stimulate overall cognition.

Alone: Ti 70 Ne 10 = 80
With External Stimulation: Ti 70 Ne 70 = 140

I don't think it's a matter of ceasing Ti activity. I don't know about the rest of you Ti dominants, but I can't stop using Ti. It's just what I do, to some degree or other. The stress comes from trying to use Ti and Fe at once. This sort of doublethink can be really stressful unless you have a lot of practice, which comes with experience and age.

I doubt it's mainly because of double judging cognition. It's more about their repressive relationship which comes from the type's nature.

 

[IndigoSensor]

In the general sense the answer is simple; it's your guyses inferior function. It takes energy to make it work correctly. Even when it is developed it takes a lot of reserves. Same goes for me with Se.

 

[snafupants]

In the general sense the answer is simple; it's your guyses inferior function. It takes energy to make it work correctly. Even when it is developed it takes a lot of reserves. Same goes for me with Se.

in what situation would you, an infj, be stressing your extraverted sensing function?

 

[IndigoSensor]

in what situation would you, an infj, be stressing your extraverted sensing function?

For me anything that does not allow for planing and saftey of some kind. Despite my like of them, going to parties is hard. It is hard for INTP's but for INFJ's it is as well, but largely for different reasons. It involves talking to people on the fly, running around, going here, going there, and sometimes dogging the cops. You can't predict or plan anything and when you try to it fails badly (a vice for an INFJ). Entering a room where people are playing some kind of game (like tag, baseball, or something like that), is hard. It takes a long time to figure out what to do and how to do it right.

 

[Words]

For me anything that does not allow for planing and saftey of some kind. Despite my like of them, going to parties is hard. It is hard for INTP's but for INFJ's it is as well, but largely for different reasons. It involves talking to people on the fly, running around, going here, going there, and sometimes dogging the cops. You can't predict or plan anything and when you try to it fails badly (a vice for an INFJ). Entering a room where people are playing some kind of game (like tag, baseball, or something like that), is hard. It takes a long time to figure out what to do and how to do it right.

Why does that stress you? Why fear the unpredictable?

 

[Razare]

Well, I don't think it's a fear of the unpredictable, but a fear of looking like a total idiot and embarrassing yourself.

In the types of environments described by Indigo, I have on many occasions throughout my life made a total idiot of myself. You miss something that everyone else already knew or noticed, you don't know what you're supposed to do, so you stand out because you usually end up looking aloof and detached from the crowd. The social dynamics move fast too, which makes it hard to keep track of, and in not-so-close nit groups, sensing conversations will occur along with group banter. Maybe other INFJ's have mastered group banter, but this one has not and I fear it.

It doesn't help I'm an sx/sp. One-on-one interactions for me, please.

 

[Adymus]

Why does that stress you? Why fear the unpredictable?

*faceplam*


Words, it's his inferior function (Se is acting in the now) that happens to be taking stress during those periods of time, it is not fear it is his natural sensitivity.

Obviously you are not going to relate because we have Ne as one of our near side functions.

 

[Words]

Well, I don't think it's a fear of the unpredictable, but a fear of looking like a total idiot and embarrassing yourself.

In the types of environments described by Indigo, I have on many occasions throughout my life made a total idiot of myself. You miss something that everyone else already knew or noticed, you don't know what you're supposed to do, so you stand out because you usually end up looking aloof and detached from the crowd. The social dynamics move fast too, which makes it hard to keep track of, and in not-so-close nit groups, sensing conversations will occur along with group banter. Maybe other INFJ's have mastered group banter, but this one has not and I fear it.

It doesn't help I'm an sx/sp. One-on-one interactions for me, please.

So it ends with Fe? Social Standing?

*faceplam*


Words, it's his inferior function (Se is acting in the now) that happens to be taking stress during those periods of time, it is not fear it is his natural sensitivity.

It ends with "just is"?

Obviously you are not going to relate because we have Ne as one of our near side functions.

I did not expect to relate...but, instead undermine the most basic meaning of such a reaction.

 

[BigApplePi]

When I went to an MBTI meeting the other day, I went just to go for the experience. I had lots of things on my mind. So the meeting proved to be overstimulating. Too much happening. I'm going to suppose that as a "thinking" person who wants to figure things out and understand, what I was experiencing was over my head. Instead of relaxing (maybe I was relaxing), I was getting pressure from others to join in. I couldn't be left alone because this was not a left alone situation.

Didn't Adymus say something about S stimulation? Si or Se? I always get those mixed up.

 

[Phoenix Down]

Personally, I'm a fan of Fe.

It helps me navigate my way through plenty social situations... I use it with Ti... like a strategy guide. To me, It's like knowing a secret. <3

Also, It has saved my ass on many occaisions.

 

[Jennywocky]

Anytime we do something that is not instinctive, it drains a bit of energy.

And if it is something that runs truly counter to our instinctive way of doing things, it drains even more energy.

Think of it like ruts on a road.
Ti has carved deep ruts in how we choose to behave.
Fe has been avoided, probably, and has no real ruts.
You have to fight the wagon very hard to keep it from sliding off that pristine ground and falling right into the Ti rut.

Put another way, Ti is an internal thinking process. You can take as long as you want, you can think in abstractions without translating anything into true detail, and it's all inside -- you don't have to emote or articulate anything.

Fe is an external process. You have to scan everyone around you, you have to know the situation, you have to respond in real-time (you don't get time to sit and ponder), you have to be able to articulate yourself in a way that others can understand, you have to make abstract things specific, you might even have to emote with your body language and voice inflection, not just your speech content, etc.

And if you barely have any experience with that, the energy drain will particularly be enormous.

 

[Trebuchet]

Obviously you are not going to relate because we have Ne as one of our near side functions.

Why couldn't we relate? I might be INTP but I do have an imagination, plus I know people who feel like this.

My husband's family was in town so I invited some of my family over too and we had tacos. (Which everyone liked and could customize according to dietary needs.) One relative was kind of freaked out because she was brought up to use impeccable table manners when visiting, and tacos don't lend themselves to forks and knives. She couldn't figure out the "right" thing to do and had a very stressful time. (I don't know her type but S and J are definitely in there.)

Tacos may not stress me but I can certainly relate to someone feeling out of their depth and unable to find the right answer. I think all people have that.

 

[Adymus]

Why couldn't we relate? I might be INTP but I do have an imagination, plus I know people who feel like this.

My husband's family was in town so I invited some of my family over too and we had tacos. (Which everyone liked and could customize according to dietary needs.) One relative was kind of freaked out because she was brought up to use impeccable table manners when visiting, and tacos don't lend themselves to forks and knives. She couldn't figure out the "right" thing to do and had a very stressful time. (I don't know her type but S and J are definitely in there.)

Tacos may not stress me but I can certainly relate to someone feeling out of their depth and unable to find the right answer. I think all people have that.

I don't see how that example has anything to do with what I said, so I am going to assume you misunderstood me.

Indy's inferior function is Se, that means out of everything he does, acting spontaneously in the now is going to be the most alien and uncomfortable for him.
This is something INTPs will not relate to, because our near side use of Ne gives us familiarity with the unknown, to a point where we would be comfortable acting unplanned and in the now, it is more natural to us.

 

[IndigoSensor]

Pretty much what Adymus said.

I think the biggest parallel for INTP's to understand is when we both go to big social gatherings. As introverts that will be taxing to both of us, but for different reasons. INTP's will feel more stress from actually talking and meeting people, being unsure or unwilling to conform to social contexts. For INFJ's, will feel more stress with just being there and being unsure on where to go and what to do (independent of direct people interaction largely).

It's not so much a fear, it can be, but more of its hard to make it work, it takes a lot of energy.

 

[Beat Mango]

There still seems to be a widely held impression that what's tiring is the use of an inferior function. The point I was making in the OP, which amounted to a momentous epiphany, was that it's the non-use of our dominant function that's tiring... (which only BigApplePi so far seems to have grasped).

Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

 

[Words]

was that it's the non-use of our dominant function that's tiring...

Please define "non-use". When we focus on other functions, do we "non-use" our Ti? If so, then I disagree and declare the repeated opinion of Ti + Ne instead of solely the dominant function. If TiNe is "suppressed" by what can only be SiFe, then it would be "tiring".

It's the non-use of our preferred top two functions that tires. Or Doesn't "non-use" automatically imply the use of another function? Hm

 

[Beat Mango]

Stop being nitpicky.

 

[snafupants]

so if someone were perfectly balanced on every dimension, would he/she:

A) find everything stimulating and energizing?
B) find everything dull and draining?
C) the answer depends on the individual and development?
D) the answer depends on the situation and people involved?
E) you wish i hadnt posted this scenario?

this will undoubtedly take some elaboration, if and when you choose to respond to this prompt.

 

[Words]

so if someone were perfectly balanced on every dimension would he/she: A) find everything stimulating and energizing B) find everything dull and draining C) the answer depends on the individual D) the answer depends on the situation and people involved E) you wish i hadnt posted this scenario

Define "balanced". Balanced as in all Functions are inserted into the Dominant slot?... which means either having no preferences or preferring all? ...which means that temperament is not a valid argument...which means that everything rests on nurture....which means that Identities, specifically personality, can be exactly similar if given similar environmental upbringing.

 

[Adymus]

so if someone were perfectly balanced on every dimension, would he/she:

A) find everything stimulating and energizing?
B) find everything dull and draining?
C) the answer depends on the individual and development?
D) the answer depends on the situation and people involved?
E) you wish i hadnt posted this scenario?

this will undoubtedly take some elaboration, if and when you choose to respond to this prompt.

The only reason any functions at all are stimulating or draining is because there is a preference involved. So if you had an apparatus that was perfectly balanced, as in, no preference at all, then nothing would be stimulating, and nothing would be draining. Which is not a very efficient or effective design.

 

[snafupants]

Define "balanced". Balanced as in all Functions are inserted into the Dominant slot?... which means either having no preferences or preferring all? ...which means that temperament is not a valid argument...which means that everything rests on nurture....which means that Identities, specifically personality, can be exactly similar if given similar environmental upbringing.

youre right, that would be self contradictory to call it temperament when there is no apparent preferred function. nonetheless, what i meant was scoring right down the middle on, say, the intuitive/sensing dimension and the other three dimensions. this person is sounding more listless than engaging...do you want to go out? no...do you want to stay in tonight? not really...do you want to read or cook later? doesnt matter...too many ellipsis, but hopefully i have bludgeoned the idea home.

would everything rest on nurture though? to wit, what if nature is how one got to this position of all functions being in the "dominant slot"? what if the parents are extremely boring at all times and thats just the kids peanut butter and j, plain cracker (no salt) personality? for this example to work, pretend the children have been seperated from the parents and spread out to foster families across the nation. additionally, pretend that one children has been left with the original parents for the sake of this experiment working and allowing a control.

 

[Words]

youre right, that would be self contradictory to call it temperament when there is no apparent preferred function. nonetheless, what i meant was scoring right down the middle on, say, the intuitive/sensing dimension and the other three dimensions. this person is sounding more listless than engaging...do you want to go out? no...do you want to stay in tonight? not really...do you want to read or cook later? doesnt matter...too many ellipsis, but hopefully i have bludgeoned the idea home.

I do not understand. Scores are from tests, correct? Tests are ?? They are therefore directly unrelated to reality? Anyways, in theory, one must innately have preferences.

would everything rest on nurture though? to wit, what if nature is how one got to this position of all functions being in the "dominant slot"?

Then it is not nature. I would call it conditioned behavior.

The "dominant slot" is an exclusive term for identifying natural preferences, not conditioned ones.

what if the parents are extremely boring at all times and thats just the kids peanut butter and j, plain cracker (no salt) personality? for this example to work, pretend the children have been seperated from the parents and spread out to foster families across the nation. additionally, pretend that one children has been left with the original parents for the sake of this experiment working and allowing a control.

Nature, by its popular definition, is natural. What you state here is emphasis on nurture.

Personality is both nature and nurture. Temperament is purely natural personality, however personality also requires environment. To think about personality is to think both ways.

 

[snafupants]

I do not understand. Scores are from tests, correct? Tests are ?? They are therefore directly unrelated to reality? Anyways, in theory, one must innately have preferences.


Then it is not nature. I would call it conditioned behavior.

The "dominant slot" is an exclusive term for identifying natural preferences, not conditioned ones.



Nature, by its popular definition, is natural. What you state here is emphasis on nurture.

Personality is both nature and nurture. Temperament is purely natural personality, however personality also requires environment. To think about personality is to think both ways.

utilizing nurture as a trump card is pretty shallow. if someone is 99/100 percent nature, then you say nope there is 1/100 nurture there. does not compute. of course both apply, its just a starting point for discussion/debate. that scenario at the end with the kids was just saying if the environment were somewhat different for every kid - and mimicked the upbringing of regular kids - then one might infer nature accounts for the crux of the lack of variation - i.e., the rendering of a dominant function as a misnomer. this was in response to your contention that if one had every or no natural preference, then their temperament relied purely on nurture, and saying that identities, specifically personalities, could be carbon copies if given commensurate, or very similar, upbringings.

n.b., i know my example with the kids was contrived as halloween, because one cant put people in test tubes, quantify a non-existent personality at birth, and run a study that longitudional. your term conditioned behavior is a cop out, by the way.

one last thing, scores on a test are unrelated to reality? unrelated, really? so, to find out that you were intp, you didnt take any kind of test? you perused all of the sixteen personalities and homed in on intp, is that about it? are you saying that not one test corroborated your intp preference? this would need to be the case for there to be no correlation between the mbti test and your conviction that youre intp.

 

[Words]

utilizing nurture as a trump card is pretty shallow. if someone is 99/100 percent nature, then you say nope there is 1/100 nurture there. does not compute. of course both apply, its just a starting point for discussion/debate.]that scenario at the end with the kids was just saying if the environment were somewhat different for every kid - and mimicked the upbringing of regular kids - then one might infer nature accounts for the crux of the lack of variation - i.e., the rendering of a dominant function as a misnomer. this was in response to your contention that if one had every or no natural preference, then their temperament relied purely on nurture, and saying that identities, specifically personalities, could be carbon copies if given commensurate, or very similar, upbringings.

n.b., i know my example with the kids was contrived as halloween, because one cant put people in test tubes, quantify a non-existent personality at birth, and run a study that longitudional. your term conditioned behavior is a cop out, by the way.

I guess you could go into evolution and how environments affects nature but this is too long term.

would everything rest on nurture though?

If there is no natural preference, then what is there besides nurture?

if nature = how one got to this position of all functions being in the "dominant slot".

Please clarify.

"How one got to this position" ----are you referring to a process before human fertilization? or after?

one last thing, scores on a test are unrelated to reality? unrelated, really? so, to find out that you were intp, you didnt take any kind of test? you perused all of the sixteen personalities and homed in on intp, is that about it? are you saying that not one test corroborated your intp preference? this would need to be the case for there to be no correlation between the mbti test and your conviction that youre intp.

A misunderstanding. I worded it poorly.

They are therefore directly unrelated to reality?

What I meant was that tests did not have a direct correlation with reality. Indirectly, which means possible seeds of misunderstandings---which is related to having a score smack dab in the middle.

 

[BigApplePi]

The only reason any functions at all are stimulating or draining is because there is a preference involved. So if you had an apparatus that was perfectly balanced, as in, no preference at all, then nothing would be stimulating, and nothing would be draining. Which is not a very efficient or effective design.

I don't know the answer to balance or why we are out of balance. Must have something to do with the rarity of balance. You may have heard the story of the monkey who saw a banana on his left and a banana on his right. His balance was such he could not choose so he starved to death. That does not realistically happen. Nature chooses.

Now does this apply to our receptability to external stimulation, to a dislike of evaluation, to a dislike for patterns producing a preference the opposite of which is draining? Could be.

If I wander through a field or through a crowd there will be a preference, a choice, a favoring unless I'm an INTP. INTP's favor balance so they are biased (out of balance) that way, lol.