Why INTPs (and some INFPs) Seek, But Struggle to Find, Convergent Truth

[Architect]

INTPs (and some INFPs) who have been around a while may remember the days when they were passionate and hopeful that they would and could discover convergent truth. For many INTPs, these may have been the most exciting and enchanting years of their lives. Like a child who is always anticipating how great life will be as an adult, INTPs dream of some future day of enlightenment, when the truth will be laid bare. With time, however, such idealism often fades and is supplanted by feelings of disenchantment and, for some, a sense of resignation or hopelessness.

Why INTPs (and some INFPs) Seek, But Struggle to Find, Convergent Truth

Beliefs or ideals orient us in a certain direction. They involve a negation of alternatives, a preference for one way over and against others. INPs, among the most open-ended of all types, are known for their difficulty in arriving at firm conclusions. While their dominant judging function (Introverted Thinking (Ti) or Introverted Feeling (Fi)) seeks closure, their auxiliary, Extraverted Intuition (Ne) is adept at introducing doubt or additional options for consideration. Thus, INFPs and INTPs alike may struggle to settle on a worldview, identity, or direction that allows them to act with confidence.

For INTPs, skepticism and cynicism can serve as formidable roadblocks to action. Many INTPs find it difficult to fully embrace anything intellectually, let alone practically.

Why Intuitive Introverts Struggle to Act

 

[The Gopher]

So Solutions?

 

[Architect]

Well if you read the links ... for example

INTPs can use their self-awareness and powers of critical analysis to identify and undo some of their underlying assumptions, tendencies, and habits that led them to forsake their original love for convergent truth.

 

[The Gopher]

Oh I seperated the two links completely. Yeah I did read that though. I am probably just tired.

 

[Etheri]

The term 'convergent' bothers me.

 

[IdeasNotTheProblem]

Could it be, (and this may have been mentioned in article), that our natural tendencies to find flaws or second guess our ideas and disprove them, causes this frustration? Say someone spends so much time/energy on one topic only to discover it is wrong. The result could be a loss of faith in oneself and what they believe is their strongest attribute.

"Mistakes are, after all, the foundations of truth, and if a man does not know what a thing is, it is at least an increase in knowledge if he knows what it is not. "- Carl Jung

 

[Jason Evans]

Maybe because there is no convergent truth as we conceptualize it. For example, if the truth is a nihilistic, chaos reality, then the truth would be the polar opposite of convergence.

I find that the more I observe, the more I find that the truth is not pretty or elegant. Kind of the opposite of religious truth, which throws observation out in favor of faith. The more I observe, the more complexity I see, not less.

 

[Etheri]

I find that the more I observe, the more I find that the truth is not pretty or elegant. The more I observe, the more complexity I see, not less.

Finding connections and patterns within the endless complexity can easily be perceived as pretty and elegant both.

I agree with your point tho. A long time ago, I was playing with the thought whether or not 'randomness' truly exists, or is just the result of us not understanding the complexity of the problems we're dealing with. (Keep in mind there are still NO genuine manmade RNGs.) Does randomness truly exist, or is it just the result of our lack of knowledge and information?

Also, I'm still hoping someone will explain why it is assumed that truth and knowledge are convergent.

 

[Jason Evans]

Yes, I agree. There is beauty in what we do.

I do believe that there is an ultimate system. Most, if not all, of the laws of physics appear to be predictable and stable. Therefore, there must be a system. But we might not like it. It might not be as neat and manageable and gorgeous as we would wish (like the meaning of life is 42).

Just as religious folks are forced to accept that bad, bad things happen in a world that God controls (and therefore occur with God's approval), we might have to accept that the full truth is bigger and uglier than we can ever smoke out. Of course, now I'm getting into a cosmological conundrum. Who created the system that exists, then? Who or what determined these rules?
But I'm not holding out too much hope that I'll solve that one in my lifetime! One step at a time. Heh.

 

[mu is mu]

I found these articles interesting and strongly identified with both of them. I very much agree with one of the conclusions in the first article, that one of the keys to the INTP overcoming an irrational amount of skepticism and intellectual immobility is to direct his critical thinking skills inwards to detect and correct fallacies within his assumptions and beliefs. Of course, such self-criticism is useful for more than eliminating skepticism.

 

[oscillatingfractal]

I don't know what convergent truth means, but I'll interpret it in my own way. I did have a childhood realization (or probably a wish) that there is one single truth out there that will validate all other conflicting claims.

For example, I believed that all different religions' conflicting claims are somehow all true, and that we humans have not yet figured out how to explain it to ourselves properly.

This belief gave me elated feeling and most of all, hope. I have no idea why this idea was so comforting to me.

Now that I'm older, I view this belief of mine to be a bit childish and idealistic. But I still haven't given up hope. I still wish this were true. The single Big Equation that will model and explain everything in universe.

I don't know why it would be a bad thing to keep my childhood wish. I have not observed whether this negatively affects my daily life or not.

I think my perfectionistic tendency is making me wish that this universe was perfect and that every single thing is accounted for and can be explained. I don't know. I'm mostly uncertain.

 

[WALKYRIA]

the most convergent truth I have found is that... Humans are doomed, because of the inability to reach full individual consciousness. Without consciousness, there cannot be any peace or understanding. People go by their fears... and in one sense, they are forced to act like that.
ALso, the delusion that intelligence enable us to do what we want and differentiate us from he animals is plain wrong... I think we should accept that just because our unconsciousness is still dominant, than we are still animals. We behave all the time like animals.

 

[Architect]

the most convergent truth I have found is that... Humans are doomed, because of the inability to reach full individual consciousness. Without consciousness, there cannot be any peace or understanding. People go by their fears... and in one sense, they are forced to act like that.
ALso, the delusion that intelligence enable us to do what we want and differentiate us from he animals is plain wrong... I think we should accept that just because our unconsciousness is still dominant, than we are still animals. We behave all the time like animals.

Seems like you've fallen into a nihilistic trap - common for INTP's on the path for convergent truth.

 

[paradoxparadigm7]

the most convergent truth I have found is that... Humans are doomed, because of the inability to reach full individual consciousness. Without consciousness, there cannot be any peace or understanding. People go by their fears... and in one sense, they are forced to act like that.
ALso, the delusion that intelligence enable us to do what we want and differentiate us from he animals is plain wrong... I think we should accept that just because our unconsciousness is still dominant, than we are still animals. We behave all the time like animals.

That's a true to type pessimistic view of humanity. And although I agree to some extent, that can be an individual purpose... namely to use our neocortex to guide us rather than our primitive unconscious urges. It's an uphill climb for sure but as the article suggests, you can loosen up that pessimism to give room for taking on the struggle and it starts with yourself. The more people who attempt and strive for this goal, the more influence you have on other's. In this way we are also impacting evolution if what we do is a reciprocal agent/force.

 

[Jennywocky]

Well, this thread offered a decent explanation why I consistently struggle between hope and skepticism despite a lifelong pursuit of a simple, elegant convergence.

Anyway, humans are animals; yet we also have some particular gifts (including self-awareness) that allows us to do things in the world that most animals don't do. The answer doesn't lay at the extremes (humans are doomed because we are animals vs humans are predestined for greatness because of our brilliance) but in how we proceed through the wasteland's ambiguities. Big dreams, intense fears, self-direction mixed with limited understanding and confusion; it's messy being human, but why should that determine how we invest our energy and lives?

 

[TimeAsylums]

lul. talk to Ne>Si's about "convergence."

Yer Ti/Fi/Si will converge on things, but Ne will blast you wide open

for Ye INPs, Ne being your first extraverted function (i.e., auxiliary Ne) your interaction will be divergent buahaha. Si seeking to converge and synthesize that. no big surprise.

ENTP, as if my unifying grand scheme inf Si goal wasn't to synthesize all the information I have into something convergent, we kno

convergence v divergence

 

[paradoxparadigm7]

Well, this thread offered a decent explanation why I consistently struggle between hope and skepticism despite a lifelong pursuit of a simple, elegant convergence.

Anyway, humans are animals; yet we also have some particular gifts (including self-awareness) that allows us to do things in the world that most animals don't do. The answer doesn't lay at the extremes (humans are doomed because we are animals vs humans are predestined for greatness because of our brilliance) but in how we proceed through the wasteland's ambiguities. Big dreams, intense fears, self-direction mixed with limited understanding and confusion; it's messy being human, but why should that determine how we invest our energy and lives?

I'll take that as a good stab at convergence

PS...I know you're not Redbaron, but yes, I like daggers.

 

[Jennywocky]

I'll take that as a good stab at convergence

PS...I know you're not Redbaron, but yes, I like daggers.

Oooo... is that a dagger I see before me?

I actually think swords and knives and daggers are elegant, if well-designed and balanced.

 

[Architect]

lul. talk to Ne>Si's about "convergence."

Yer Ti/Fi/Si will converge on things, but Ne will blast you wide open

ENTPs have extreme difficulty at finding convergence because of the dominate Ne. If I were one I'd probably say "if you can't fight 'em, join them" and embrace the divergence.

 

[WALKYRIA]

Seems like you've fallen into a nihilistic trap - common for INTP's on the path for convergent truth.

Highly possible. I am a pathologically nihilistic( I don't believe in anything but the mystery, in that sense I am a mystic !) one. I think nihilism is due to the disparity between our idealistic initial world view("life is full of amazing possibilities ", " world peace is achievable", " science is amazing and can give the answers "..Etc) and the tastelessness of the adult's reality , of the daily relationships and routine.

When I look at people- happy people or even people who are considered "normal'- all I see is people who play games and who are in complete denial of the truth of this reality= nihilism, and the truth about themselves. It's crazy but I prefer a depressed, struggling person, a person who faces reality and who aims to solve his internal problems to a perfectly normal, reality-avoiding happy person. I guess our tendency to focus on the wrong side of things/ the inaccuracies/ the problems in a situation is why we tend to hate normal or happy people( They choose voluntarily to deny certain aspects of the reality and only see the good or easy side... which is incompatible with holism and completeness !) .
I paradoxically find Nihilism to be the starting point of anything meaningful. Many intellectuals, writers,artists have recognized the void of our existence... they have been through the famous existential depression and then they accepted it- and became conscious nihilists--, got up and did amazing things.

Woody Allen:

"Everybody knows how awful the world is and what a terrible situation it is and each person distorts it in a certain way that enables him to get through. Some people distort it with religious things. Some people distort it with sports, with money, with love, with art, and they all have their own nonsense about what makes it meaningful, and all but nothing makes it meaningful. These things definitely serve a certain function, but in the end they all fail to give life meaning and everyone goes to his grave in a meaningless way.
In the end, nothing matters. Until then, all that matters is finding something that will help you "get through." There is no right or wrong, no Last Judgment, no karma. There's only power, desire, and luck. Rational deliberation involves just two questions: What do I really want? And what can I get away with?

Big dreams, intense fears, self-direction mixed with limited understanding and confusion; it's messy being human, but why should that determine how we invest our energy and lives?

Don't take my former post seriously... was rambling.
I don't understand the question very well... But I wholeheartedly agree with you here(as many times I guess!). The messiness of our condition is amazingly beautiful... In the end, we still don't know. Only Mystery and chaos remains after deconstruction is done by Ti-Ne. And mystery and chaos are the most amazing things we could ever experience. Demystifying and Dechaotisation is the most amazing thing we can do.

 

[Analyzer]

Larry David is the epitome of an INTP taking advantage of the concepts of nihilism, and creating famous work.

Nihilism concepts are nice to understand but don't really hold any weight in the objective reality. If someone is truly a nihilist, they would not be able to correct any objective statement. If everything is subjective, then that would indicate known truth. It is self-detonating by nature.

 

[TimeAsylums]

embrace the divergence

that's what I was saying to you

it is a creative output, take it, deal with it

 

[redbaron]

I liked this statement:

While incessant exploration of options and alternative may not bother ENTPs, for whom Ne is dominant, it eventually causes INTPs to feel very restless and frustrated.

This has always been to me the most glaring indicator that determines the true type of an "XNTP", and I think is a really big factor in understanding the TiNe (or vice-versa) relationship.

I think a large part of it stems from a desire to personally analyse and test the information received before moving on. There's a tangible need to analyse details in what some people consider obsessive and excruciating depth before assimilating further information

Oooo... is that a dagger I see before me?

I actually think swords and knives and daggers are elegant, if well-designed and balanced.

I'll take that as a good stab at convergence

PS...I know you're not Redbaron, but yes, I like daggers.

I'll see both of you after class.

 

[Architect]

Larry David is the epitome of an INTP taking advantage of the concepts of nihilism, and creating famous work.

Interesting - fascinating, I hadn't considered that. He's definitely an INTP, I got into an argument with an idiot INTJ on this point. He walked away smug and confident he was right and had proved it too, all while brushing aside other ideas. He was sure he was an INTJ.

 

[WALKYRIA]

DIdn't know about that guy before...but he is totally INTP to me. I mean, I fully recognize myself through the many lines, behaviors, mannerism, humor..etc He just cannot be an INTJ ! His 'humorous' behavior is just our default behavior.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NeqZOce1fE#t=339

 

[Analyzer]

If not INTP, I would say ENTP. A more ENTP type comedian that comes to my mind is George Carlin. George's humor is more in your face socially centric(Ne/Fe), while an INTP like Larry is more indirect and subtle.

 

[Spirit]

If not INTP, I would say ENTP. A more ENTP type comedian that comes to my mind is George Carlin. George's humor is more in your face socially centric(Ne/Fe), while an INTP like Larry is more indirect and subtle.

Steven Wright seems more INTP to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5ErMolRE8M

 

[TBerg]

Larry David is the epitome of an INTP taking advantage of the concepts of nihilism, and creating famous work.

Nihilism concepts are nice to understand but don't really hold any weight in the objective reality. If someone is truly a nihilist, they would not be able to correct any objective statement. If everything is subjective, then that would indicate known truth. It is self-detonating by nature.

You got that from Stefan Moleneux, didn't you?

 

[Analyzer]

You got that from Stefan Moleneux, didn't you?

Yes, probable INTP.

 

[Reluctantly]

I don't find the divergence to be a problem though. Once I accepted it, it became the solution to finding convergence because I find convergent truth in putting all the divergent truths together. And this is quite different from someone who can't relate divergent truths together, someone who is then going to see the idea of divergent truths as senseless and negative because it will seem to have no definitive form or meaning.

So is this difference what the article means then? Because otherwise, I don't think seeking convergent truth to the exclusion of divergent truth (as if they must be incompatible) is a healthy thing for a personality type that is supposed to be good at critical thinking.