• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.
  • Done now. Domine miserere nobis.

Why Do So Many People Hate Ayn Rand?

ℜεмїηїs¢εη¢ε

Active Member
Local time
Today 4:43 AM
Joined
Aug 18, 2012
Messages
401
---
I haven't actually read her books but I have watched several of her interviews and I just don't get it. She seems like a very honest and rational woman, is that what the issue is? Does society prefer women to be superficial and stupid? Is this perhaps some kind of discrimination or are there actually flaws in her views?
 

TriflinThomas

Bitch, don't kill my vibe...
Local time
Today 3:43 AM
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Messages
637
---
Location
Southern California
Paul Ryan.
 

dala

Member
Local time
Today 3:43 AM
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
91
---
No, it's her views that are the issue. She takes her ideology to an almost ridiculous level.
 

Cognisant

cackling in the trenches
Local time
Today 12:43 AM
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
11,155
---
She makes other people's ideologies ridiculous :p
 

linnet

Quoi?
Local time
Today 7:43 PM
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
5
---
It is because her ideas are polarizing and untenable. She supports capitalism to an extent that disregards all else. She is more an ideologue than a serious thinker, despite being very rational. I have read three of her major works and I have to say, there are many things she just does not consider. For example:

She believes in the entrepreneurial spirit, to create something out of nothing, wealth out of the wilderness. She believes in the independent spirit. It is a very uplifting viewpoint... until you consider the fact that entrepreneurs don't create something out of nothing, they create something out of something, with the assistance /collaboration of many people along the way, not their own bare hands by themselves... and her characters are mostly resource barons, people who made it big in the steel or coal business, dreaming of lands unspoilt by socialism/government interference. She is unrealistic because she doesn't contemplate the possibility of resource depletion and environmental safety. She believes that people can make great things (of course it is not about the money!) out of their bare hands as long as they have great vision and ambition.

She contradicts herself in many ways. She does not believe in socialism yet one of her heroes designs really great housing for poor people, which would have been his crowning achievement and helped people. The fault was that the manufacturers were greedy and used cheap material for the houses, so that they broke down after a year or so.

Also is her attitude towards women: she obviously despises most women who act in motherly roles or appear to be victims of their circumstances. She cannot understand why they can not rise above it. Her heroine is a woman who excels among a world of men, in one of her stories her heroine marries a man she despises and ruins him with her frigidness, while also making the man she truly loves suffer. The woman does it as a matter of principle, to prove a point (which I still could not logically fathom after re-reading it). The woman also happens to be born a heiress, with stunning beauty, obvious advantages that do not make sense with her standards for the self-made man. So Ayn Rand also espouses rather sexist viewpoints that seemed to sit very well with the men of her time.

It is uplifting, crystalizing experience to read her work.... until you actually think about what she is saying.
 

dala

Member
Local time
Today 3:43 AM
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
91
---
Fair enough. I find any ideology taken to an extreme to be both ridiculous and dangerous.
 

Cognisant

cackling in the trenches
Local time
Today 12:43 AM
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
11,155
---
She believes in the entrepreneurial spirit, to create something out of nothing, wealth out of the wilderness. She believes in the independent spirit. It is a very uplifting viewpoint... until you consider the fact that entrepreneurs don't create something out of nothing, they create something out of something, with the assistance /collaboration of many people along the way, not their own bare hands by themselves...
Arguably finding people who can help them and soliciting their help is something entrepreneurs do for themselves, for example I mentioned the robot I'm working on in the lounge and although people commented on it, and I'm sure there's people here who have knowledge/skills/resources/experience that could be if use to me, those people aren't going to approach me and offer help unless either I solicit their help somehow or they're already convinced that helping me would be to their benefit.

Of course I'm not going to build a robot literally out of nothing, but that's not the point she makes, her point is that my motivation isn't the result of an employer demanding that I build a robot or some bizarre scenario that specifically dictates that I must build a robot, the motivation comes from me, as a self motivated entrepreneur I am undertaking this challenge as a matter of self improvement, to make my life better, and if that makes the lives of others better too well I then refer to my earlier comments on wealth.

Yes I'm egotistical enough to assume you've know the comments I'm referring to or give enough of a damn to look them up :D

and her characters are mostly resource barons, people who made it big in the steel or coal business, dreaming of lands unspoilt by socialism/government interference. She is unrealistic because she doesn't contemplate the possibility of resource depletion and environmental safety.
So? The modern equivalents of her industrialist barons would be barons of solar power, hybrid electric vehicles, consumer electronics and biowaste recycling, etc, they're exactly the same sort of people, the entrepreneurs who see adversity as opportunity, Ayn Rand doesn't contemplate the possibility of human endeavour causing problems, because that's inevitable, and the only thing going to overcome those problems is further human endeavour.

She believes that people can make great things (of course it is not about the money!) out of their bare hands as long as they have great vision and ambition.
Money is just the means to an end, and besides what's the alternative, are you advocating that we do not have great vision and ambition?
 

InvisibleJim

Banned
Local time
Today 11:43 AM
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
199
---
Location
Everywhere
Simples, she doesn't pander.
 

Inappropriate Behavior

is peeing on the carpet
Local time
Today 6:43 AM
Joined
Sep 21, 2008
Messages
3,795
---
Location
Behind you, kicking you in the ass
Maybe I'll revisit this when I have more time but...

I've somewhat softened my views of her. I used to call her a pseudo-intellectual c-word (can I still cuss like a mean drunk sailor on this site? I know sometimes you leave a place for awhile only to return to find the rules have changed). I've since dropped the c-word (c-word being cunt in case you don't know what I mean by that).

I mostly despise her most ardent adherents. She was rational in a vacuum perhaps but when applied to reality there are many gaping holes. Still there are some things worth thinking about and agreeing with. It's not a case of not throwing out the baby with the bathwater but rather not throwing out the old pair of underwear with the soapy water you used to wash them. I mean, you did take the time to wash them. You should at least wring them out and hang them up to dry in case you need them someday.
 

MsAnthropy_Indefatigably

The Black One
Local time
Today 6:43 AM
Joined
Jan 31, 2012
Messages
249
---
Location
South Florida
I was about to make a thread positing the same exact question.
I don't understand what the problem is, but like you, I have yet to read the books either, but I find her philosophy sound, so far, a reasonable request. I don't see why people feel the intrinsic right to get help from the government no matter the cause of their predicament, and if we put half the money into community programs that we do into taxes to keep these programs up and running, we would more than be able to take care of each other on a different level and with better results, I think.
 

Nezaros

Highly Irregular
Local time
Today 4:43 AM
Joined
Dec 23, 2012
Messages
594
---
Location
Returning some videotapes
I wasn't aware there was such a dislike for her herself, just her philosophy. I haven't read her books either, or watched interviews, or indeed read / seen much information pertaining to Ayn Rand herself. I've just always thought her philosophy was shortsighted and naïve.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Today 9:13 PM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,065
---
I just downloaded 'Atlas Shrugged'. I haven't read any of her writings yet but the videos I've seen of her make her look unlikable (shifty eyes). I largely agree with everything she says, though at times I think she could communicate it better. When someone is proposing a very different way of doing things, they must be aware of the very real danger of being misconstrued and subsequently dismissed.
 

ProxyAmenRa

Here to bring back the love!
Local time
Today 9:43 PM
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
4,668
---
Location
Australia
Ayn Rand considered herself a sex goddess and proceeded to tell the world about her virtue. Unbeknownst to Rand, it was quite evident that Rand kinda looked a man. People tried to tell her that she was not a sexual icon but she would just not stop bothering people. Eventually everyone just started hating her.
 

Back2Basics

M0DERATOR
Local time
Today 3:43 AM
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
136
---
Location
Motherboard
Ayn Rand considered herself a sex goddess and proceeded to tell the world about her virtue. Unbeknownst to Rand, it was quite evident that Rand kinda looked a man. People tried to tell her that she was not a sexual icon but she would just not stop bothering people. Eventually everyone just started hating her.

Randal Howard "Rand" Paul
 

just george

Bull**** Artist ENTP 8w7
Local time
Today 10:13 PM
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
881
---
Location
That madhouse planet in the Milky Way
because she attacks peoples sacred cows.

Shes right. She didnt deliver the right in the "right" way. That in itself is no reason to attack her. But when you deliver truth to humans in doses too large to digest they freak out.
 

Cherry Cola

Banned
Local time
Today 11:43 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
3,899
---
Location
stockholm
Read her wikipedia article, her philosophy is an inconsistent mess of fail and she lacks any kind of insight into the human psyche (which her thesis relies upon). Her simplistic mind also makes the choice of name for her philosophy all the more laughable.

Fountainhead is one hell of a book tho!
 

Wolf18

a who
Local time
Today 11:43 AM
Joined
Dec 24, 2012
Messages
575
---
Location
Far away from All This
ℜεмїηїs¢εη¢ε, I didn't know she was female until I finished reading Anthem (her name does not tell much). I don't think it has to do with discrimination.

linnet, I agree. She doesn't hold her philosophy together very well, and it is quite extreme. I found Anthem predictable as well as extreme. I know people who do like her works, though.

ProxyAmenRa, I didn't know she wanted to be a sexual icon.

So, her philosophy was extreme and badly articulated, and she wanted to be a sexual icon, even though she was not considered conventionally attractive.

Conclusion: Perhaps she wanted to be remembered for something, so she attempted to make herself unforgettable in 2 ways, the second as a back-up plan.

SW
 

Brontosaurie

Banned
Local time
Today 12:43 PM
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
5,646
---
it's called objectivism but its content is "it's good to be evil, ancient buildings are cool, achievements are badass, i just realized trivial psychological egoism wow yeah, let's equivocate that and promote every man for himself because tuxedos and cigars are awesome, nothing is true so this shit is true yeah lol"

that's what i can remember from ayn rand.
 

Cherry Cola

Banned
Local time
Today 11:43 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
3,899
---
Location
stockholm
also art deco because ornamentation is silly and pointless

I've only read the Fountainhead... but that was some fucking prose, the characters didn't behave like humans (gj creating a philosophy for humans that requires them not to act like humans as if that's gonna happen anytime soon) but they sure made for some intense litterature!

Btw why do people think she is right but bad at delivering her message? She is completely of the mark and her philosophy if implemented globally would eventually lead to widespread warfare and thereafter global regress into more primitive societies wherein "honor", the stupidest of all abstract concepts will once again reign supreme.
 

Chad

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 6:43 AM
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
1,079
---
Location
Westbrook, Maine
I don't Hate this person. I don't even know who this person is to hate them.
 

kvothe27

Active Member
Local time
Today 4:43 AM
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
382
---
People hate Ayn Rand for the same reason they hate any other proponent of some political ideology or philosophy that differs from their chosen ideology -- It's a threat to their identity. People tend to incorporate their religious and political beliefs into their identities. Thus, when some ideology threatens their own, it's viewed as a threat to the self.
 

Brontosaurie

Banned
Local time
Today 12:43 PM
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
5,646
---
People hate Ayn Rand for the same reason they hate any other proponent of some political ideology or philosophy that differs from their chosen ideology -- It's a threat to their identity. People tend to incorporate their religious and political beliefs into their identities. Thus, when some ideology threatens their own, it's viewed as a threat to the self.

go ad hitlerum.
 

Magus

Active Member
Local time
Today 11:43 AM
Joined
Mar 13, 2013
Messages
114
---
I don't pretend to be a fan of hers in particular or knowledgeable about her ideas but I'd hazard a bet that 90% of the people who either vocally criticize her or idolize her know next to nothing about her philosophy. Perhaps that goes without saying in this day and age though.

I have Atlas Shrugged and intend to get around to reading it at some point.
 

kvothe27

Active Member
Local time
Today 4:43 AM
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
382
---

Brontosaurie

Banned
Local time
Today 12:43 PM
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
5,646
---
People hate Hitler for the same reason they hate any other proponent of some political ideology or philosophy that differs from their chosen ideology -- It's a threat to their identity. People tend to incorporate their religious and political beliefs into their identities. Thus, when some ideology threatens their own, it's viewed as a threat to the self.

this is too easy. yet i'm not overlooking anything. i love to pull the hitler.
 

kvothe27

Active Member
Local time
Today 4:43 AM
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
382
---
this is too easy. yet i'm not overlooking anything. i love to pull the hitler.

Doesn't change anything


People hate those on whom they've projected despised alienated characteristics -- such characteristics or values are often manifested in ideologies. This, of course, depends on whether our definitions or psychological explanations of hate are the same.
 

Milo

Brain Programmer
Local time
Today 6:43 AM
Joined
Jul 14, 2012
Messages
1,018
---
Location
MN
I don't see any contradictions in her philosophy.

Sorry to say. :p
 

Brontosaurie

Banned
Local time
Today 12:43 PM
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
5,646
---
Doesn't change anything


People hate those on whom they've projected despised alienated characteristics -- such characteristics or values are often manifested in ideologies. This, of course, depends on whether our definitions or psychological explanations of hate are the same.

or, alternatively, they hate (dislike or disqualify is more relevant) those whose opinions are actually, demonstrably, bad.
 

kvothe27

Active Member
Local time
Today 4:43 AM
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
382
---
or, alternatively, they hate (dislike or disqualify is more relevant) those whose opinions are actually, demonstrably, bad.

If we're going with "dislike" over "hate," sure (in some cases, at least, provided other important factors are there).
 

just george

Bull**** Artist ENTP 8w7
Local time
Today 10:13 PM
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
881
---
Location
That madhouse planet in the Milky Way
Because she says the truth without being funny.

Personally, I agree with her philosophies generally. The other people who do tend to be a tad cultish for my liking, but that is probably a result of desperation for common sense in government.
 

scorpiomover

The little professor
Local time
Today 11:43 AM
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
3,383
---
Because of her philosophy, Objectivism. It is generally understood that a large part of her philosophy centred about the idea that if everyone was completely selfish, then everyone would be self-motivated to achieve greatness, and then everyone would be great. However, in reality, when people are being selfish, other people often get hurt. E.G. the paedophile who rapes a 9-year-old, is simply being selfish.
 

Milo

Brain Programmer
Local time
Today 6:43 AM
Joined
Jul 14, 2012
Messages
1,018
---
Location
MN
The human condition is caused by people trying to fight their own instincts--when their intellect tries to rule the intuition. The instincts being suppressed build up and cause frustration that can be expressed in many ways (even ways that only reside in the psyche through enforced psychological defenses, which unfortunately usually lead to a catch-22-like effect which can drive one into madness resulting in depression, anxiety, and a whole list of health symptoms). That is why controlling others with both threats and with communal pressures actually cause bad things to happen, because deep down everyone wants to judge themselves as a good person (though most people see themselves through their views of how others view them--which is a very inaccurate way of assessing one's self). When they fail to prove to themselves that they are good after an event of self-judgement happens they then express that inner conflict through their behavior. This is why ideologies are dangerous--though it is hard to help people realize this without them taking the information as an absolute list of rules to abide by (and consequently enforce upon others because of one's enforcement on societies norms).

This is Ayn Rand's background understanding that brings her philosophy into light. Or, at least I hope so.
 

gilliatt

Active Member
Local time
Today 6:43 AM
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
425
---
Location
usa
She told us the truth, it is honesty. Yes, her honesty? Intellectual honesty consists in taking ideas seriously. You live by these ideas that you accept as true. So, why hate anyone that is being honest with you?
 

Grayman

Soul Shade
Local time
Today 3:43 AM
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Messages
4,418
---
Location
You basement
It isn't about honesty. It is about her lack of compassion for others.

The worst of it is that she holds up a dirty word "Selfishness" as a banner of what she stands for. She waves it about in everyone's eyes saying that I stand for "Selfishness" I support "Selfishness".

The world of people see this and are disgusted and wide eyed appalled. It is not because she is a woman. It is because these people have grown up learning that selfishness is bad. That it is despicable. It is disgusting. This woman waves about that she is a supporter of selfishness, so what does that make her?
 

Grayman

Soul Shade
Local time
Today 3:43 AM
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Messages
4,418
---
Location
You basement
BTW -

Hitler was honest about his beliefs and took them seriously and there were many who hated him.
 

OrLevitate

Banned
Local time
Today 3:43 AM
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
784
---
Location
I'm intrinsically luminous, mortals. I'm 4ever
stupid name
 

OrLevitate

Banned
Local time
Today 3:43 AM
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
784
---
Location
I'm intrinsically luminous, mortals. I'm 4ever
i havent read any of the thread but hitler didn't goof around, 2fast2serious
 

Reluctantly

Resident disMember
Local time
Today 1:43 AM
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
3,135
---
People hate Ayn Rand for the same reason they hate any other proponent of some political ideology or philosophy that differs from their chosen ideology -- It's a threat to their identity. People tend to incorporate their religious and political beliefs into their identities. Thus, when some ideology threatens their own, it's viewed as a threat to the self.

Maybe for some, but not all. Ayn Rand rejected specific philosophical notions/categories in order to justify her philosophy, which she projects on others by way of psychological generalization. A lot of people don't like her because she compartmentalizes them and their behavior with her beliefs, which she claims as objective and true.

It's a peculiar thing when a philosophy claims to be objective, yet asserts its own view of how to understand above all other views. A good portion of her philosophy seems to rely on dismissing contradictory viewpoints to have a viewpoint at all.
 

Red myst

Abstract Utilitiarian
Local time
Today 5:43 AM
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Messages
378
---
Location
Southern United States
It isn't about honesty. It is about her lack of compassion for others.

The worst of it is that she holds up a dirty word "Selfishness" as a banner of what she stands for. She waves it about in everyone's eyes saying that I stand for "Selfishness" I support "Selfishness".

The world of people see this and are disgusted and wide eyed appalled. It is not because she is a woman. It is because these people have grown up learning that selfishness is bad. That it is despicable. It is disgusting. This woman waves about that she is a supporter of selfishness, so what does that make her?

Actually Rand hated selfishness and greed. Maybe she wasn't a compassionate person, but I would not consider her selfish or greedy. She preached rational self-interest. She was advocating to keep what is yours and work for what you want. Not beg, mooch, or loot what is not yours. Some people treat compassion like a religion, and if you don't want to show compassion to someone, you are evil. Rand would not have supported government bailouts for banks. The banks got greedy and they should have been left to fail. Rand would not have supported government legislation that contributed to the greedy environment. The public got greedy and applied for loans they knew they could otherwise not afford if it were not for the government intervention, and the banks were practicing predatory lending. The banks alone are not to blame, but the banks, the government, and the public together formed this perfect storm that contributed to the financial crisis in 08. Rand immigrated from a communist country, so I get that she is hypersensitive to government intervention into people and businesses affairs. In Atlas Shrugged, I was turned off by how rigid the protagonist were, and how greedy and useless the villains were. But I understand the point. I try to remember that it is not my duty to give, but my option. And I should never feel selfish about keeping what is mine. Asking for a handout, bailout, etc.... is selfish. Expecting the public to pay for poor decisions is selfish. But sometimes out of rational self interest the prospect of bailing someone out is more favorable than the consequences of not bailing them out. Still done out of rational self interest, not compassion.
On another note, some of us in general are more compassionate than others. Perhaps a difference in the amount of mirror neurons between individuals is part of the reason. And some of us become more callous to others misfortunes over time. Too many people try manipulate us by playing upon our sympathy. Too many people are just working the system. Too many people now feel like they are entitled to our sympathies, and society tends to shame and guilt those who will not agree.
 

scorpiomover

The little professor
Local time
Today 11:43 AM
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
3,383
---
I don't know that many people who do hate her.

I haven't actually read her books but I have watched several of her interviews and I just don't get it. She seems like a very honest and rational woman, is that what the issue is? Does society prefer women to be superficial and stupid?
Most people don't. Well, not pseudo-intellectuals.

Is this perhaps some kind of discrimination or are there actually flaws in her views?
If you haven't really read her books, and not paid much attention to considering her opinions, then how would you know?

If you have put some thought into the matter, then you know why most people rejected her world-view.
 

JansenDowel

Active Member
Local time
Today 11:43 PM
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
240
---
Location
New Zealand
Her philosophy is fine. Its consistent and morally flawless. The only problem she has is that she uses particular words out of context. And is thus easy to misunderstand.
 

Reluctantly

Resident disMember
Local time
Today 1:43 AM
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
3,135
---
And some people misunderstand her so much that they actually think her morals are flawless.
 

ProxyAmenRa

Here to bring back the love!
Local time
Today 9:43 PM
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
4,668
---
Location
Australia
Reluctantly, are you able to derive your system of morals and ethics from first principles and have it be internally consistent?
 

Grayman

Soul Shade
Local time
Today 3:43 AM
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Messages
4,418
---
Location
You basement

Reluctantly

Resident disMember
Local time
Today 1:43 AM
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
3,135
---
Reluctantly, are you able to derive your system of morals and ethics from first principles and have it be internally consistent?

Yes, but it doesn't take much intelligence to use first principles to create an internally consistent moral code. It does take intelligence to architect a system based on those principles, but just because one can doesn't make the underlying principles correct or absolutely moral in themselves.

So instead I choose to see principles as relatively ethical and use them as tools that will be ethical depending on how they are used and in what context; and if I misuse a tool (by using it incorrectly or applying it to something it is not tailored to) I have enough integrity to reflect on its use, accept reasonable criticism, and change to a more ethically effective tool. Ayn Rand (from what I've seen of her philosophy and what she has said in interviews) defended her principles as irrefutably moral for one reason or another, irrespective of the philosophy she architectured off them.
 
Top Bottom