Who do you talk to when no one would understand?

[computerhxr]

I was realizing that I can't talk to friends and family about my work, because I feel like I would make them feel bad. At the same time, I've rarely been congratulated for any accomplishments by anyone in my family, or friends.

I made a mistake today, and I don't think that they would understand. I would just be making them feel bad about their lives. I feel like I live in a fragile emotional ecosystem of people who are insecure.

People get upset a lot easier than I do. I feel like maybe this is an INTP problem.

I guess most people wouldn't even consider other's feelings until after they are upset. Then not understand what they did, or be in some sort of denial about.

I guess I'm just ranting...

 

[Black Rose]

i might understand.
what happened?

Oh now i see.

 

[computerhxr]

i might understand.
what happened?

Oh now i see.

I don't really want to discuss it publicly. I feel like an ass, and I would probably only feel like more of an ass talking about it. Lol!

 

[Sixup]

...the voices

 

[computerhxr]

...the voices

You hear them too?

 

[Sixup]

You hear them too?

they're my breast friends

 

[TheAdditional1]

Well this isn't exactly public. We're all anonymous...for the most part. I would imagine that we're all here for similar enough reasons i.e. free discussion, which really only comes in an environment where we're able to suspend personal judgment - this isn't INTJ! *rim shot*

But no, my first thought to your question was "us". We're here to talk, listen, problem solve; we're anonymous so that we can be more open and not judged. I can't emphasize enough that we are all likely a bunch of problem solvers who are empathetic to each other on a concentrated level unseen outside of INTP forums.

We can help, or at least listen, and I'd be more than happy to help if I can. Open door.



DISCLAIMER: We may or may not be singing the theme song to Friends before too long.

POST SCRIPT: My other first thought when reading the title was Phantom of the Opera's "No One Would Listen" - unfortunately only sung by Gerard Butler, but at least he now has one redeeming feature.

/end non-sequiturs

 

[J-man]

I sometimes talk to entities in the spiritual realm. There are always beings there who will understand.

 

[computerhxr]

Haha, not everyone here is here to help.

Well, it isn't really a problem.

I got a job invite on a website that I use to find work. Just looking at the other applicants, I was probably the only person that they invited.

I look at the rate, and then I clicked decline invitation. Then after I did that, I read it again. They added a note that said the rate that they listed was a mistake, and that they meant to offer 3 or 4 times as much. But, I already declined.

The problem is, that the rate that I declined was more than most people that I know make. So talking about it just feels like rubbing it in their face that I make more than them.

The same thing with my accomplishments. I do a lot that I would like to be proud of but I don't want to offend anyone.

It's polarizing, because I get a lot of respect from some people, and complete lack of respect from others. I don't know how to deal with it. Sometimes I get tired of listening and want to talk about something that I'm interested in.

Other people get parties and gifts for their accomplishments. I accomplish something and that's it, no one cares.

It's been like this my whole life. Other people get awards and are celebrated for my accomplishments. I don't really mind because I don't like attention, but an atta'boy once in a blue moon would be nice.

 

[Black Rose]

i wish i could accomplish more.
i just do internet surfing all day.
appreciation is something most everyone needs.
my mom hugged me today without me asking.

 

[computerhxr]

my mom hugged me today without me asking.

You're lucky. My mom never hugged me, or paid any attention to me. No point in showing accomplishments to someone who doesn't care.

I'm pretty sure that I have an avoidant attachment disorder...

Actually, here's a quote from a website...

"Avoidants are painfully aware of what others think of them and are ridiculously worried about rejection."

Haha, yeah that sounds like me.

 

[TheAdditional1]

Hm, man. Real quick, is there any chance you can email them and say you would like to accept it after all? They made a mistake, and so did you; you can assert/assure that you had declined under the mistaken circumstances, but now that you realized as much, you would be happy to work with them and see what you all can do together. I feel like among the "system" these mistakes can't be fixed, but in the fluidity of humanity there are many more opportunities.


That said, sorry - just needed to address that first because it looks like a case of unfulfilled potential that doesn't need to remain that way. But going to your presented/additional problem of interacting with others in things like this...

Well it sounds like it all comes down to a matter of perspective. How does it look from their end? Their end is more important because that is what dictates their reaction towards you, which is the source of this overarching issue. At the end of the day, almost everyone is selfish - everything they experience ties back to them. So if you hope to get better responses from them, maybe you can find ways to include them in the dilemma without including them in the landmark achievements that dwarf them. For example - your issue is that you declined something that's above their standards but below yours, but it was a mistake and now you feel bad about it - and now you now want either solace or their advice.

Now let's rephrase that:

"Your issue is that you declined something, but it was a mistake and now you feel bad about it - and now you their advice."

Difference here is that they are presented with the same situation, but now have nothing that could possibly make them feel inferior; in fact - and especially since they know you usually achieve more than them - they now have a chance to feel superior, to contribute, to feel important because you are seeking them out for improvement.

I'm kind of going on a rant here but basically this: It's possible that they don't appreciate you because everything you do makes them feel more inferior - human nature. So your job is to neutralize that, by presenting your issues, successes, or stories in a way that can include them and maintain their base sense of worth.


I'm drawing from a few personal experiences, but particularly one book I read that became a really great tool that I've applied and learned from - if you haven't read it yet, I would truly, truly recommend How To Win Friends and Influence People. Use it as a tool and with a grain of salt, but it will do wonders.

Also, since you say you have a tendency to out-achieve your peers, I would recommend one of my favorite poems in this instance - If, by Rudyard Kipling.
Particularly:

"If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch, If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you, If all men count with you, but none too much..."


If I had to put the point I'm trying to make in a nutshell, it would be to re-discover that "common touch". HTWF&IP will help with that, in kind of unexpected but intriguing ways. Kind of like a new spice. Basil, maybe.





Anyway I hope this helps. Let me know.

 

[Black Rose]

You're lucky. My mom never hugged me, or paid any attention to me. No point in showing accomplishments to someone who doesn't care.

but this is the first time she ever has done so.
so i know how you feel.
i wanted her to take interest in me but she did not.

 

[computerhxr]

but this is the first time she ever has done so.
so i know how you feel.
i wanted her to take interest in me but she did not.

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were saying she hugged you frequently, and without reason.

 

[Black Rose]

i need to use more qualifiers when communicating

 

[computerhxr]

Anyway I hope this helps. Let me know.

It's helpful in a sense. I have read How To Win Friends and Influence people many times and I think it's a great resource. I don't really have problems communicating with people, and navigating around their insecurities.

The problem is, that in-order to do that, I lose myself and my identity.

 

[marie]

I rarely open up my feelings to other people, I just keep them inside, I'll keep myself busy. When I'm in school I'm basically a loner, I'll only talk to my classmates when I'm going to ask/say something important. Other than that I'll just sit in at the back of the classroom then play some games on my phone. I think I'm an unhealthy INTP I did have bad childhood. So yea.

 

[TheAdditional1]

That's actually the main, if not exact, way I've used the book - as a way to consciously detach from the way I talk to people differently than the way I'm expressing myself. A buffer between expressing the way I want to vs. getting what I ultimately want.

Since the latter is more concrete and lasting than the former, I see it as withholding the emotional weight of the former and saving the emotional (identity) investment for the latter. Like...if you understand that you're capable of being more emotionally mature than the ones you're talking to, then that seems to help buffer and preserve your identity, because you're not making it dependent on your expression with these people. That's my approach, helps me.

I personally believe emotions are like water - useful if you can control them right, but flood and leaks happen if they get in the wrong places.

 

[Yellow]

Who do you talk to when no one would understand?

No one. That may be why I'm more high-strung than I ought, however.

Anyway, I think I know what you mean. My father worked very, very hard to get us out from being well under the poverty level. Now, he is retired upper-middle class, and his family (except for his mother) never forgave him. They expected him to stay poor. They expected him to remain entangled in their lifestyle. When he wasn't, they expected him to pay their bail and the rent money that they drank away. They expected that he "owed" them for being family. They certainly didn't want to hear that he had done well. They relished only in his setbacks.

The thing is, you shouldn't have to hide your success or apologize for it. If the people you know want to stay in the muck, leave them there to wallow. Envy is an emotion for the lazy. People who really care about you will be genuinely happy for you when you do well, and they will be there for you when you need an empathetic ear.

 

[computerhxr]

...

I was like that when I was in school. Except I didn't even talk to my friends about anything more than superficial.

That's actually the main, if not exact, way I've used the book - as a way to consciously detach from the way I talk to people differently than the way I'm expressing myself. A buffer between expressing the way I want to vs. getting what I ultimately want.

Since the latter is more concrete and lasting than the former, I see it as withholding the emotional weight of the former and saving the emotional (identity) investment for the latter. Like...if you understand that you're capable of being more emotionally mature than the ones you're talking to, then that seems to help buffer and preserve your identity, because you're not making it dependent on your expression with these people. That's my approach, helps me.

I personally believe emotions are like water - useful if you can control them right, but flood and leaks happen if they get in the wrong places.

That's some pretty good advice.

Detachment comes natural to me. It's really difficult for me to trust people. I have worked on it for a long time.

What's the point of having an identity if you're the only person that ever gets to know it?

No one. That may be why I'm more high-strung than I ought, however.

Anyway, I think I know what you mean. My father worked very, very hard to get us out from being well under the poverty level. Now, he is retired upper-middle class, and his family (except for his mother) never forgave him. They expected him to stay poor. They expected him to remain entangled in their lifestyle. When he wasn't, they expected him to pay their bail and the rent money that they drank away. They expected that he "owed" them for being family. They certainly didn't want to hear that he had done well. They relished only in his setbacks.

The thing is, you shouldn't have to hide your success or apologize for it. If the people you know want to stay in the muck, leave them there to wallow. Envy is an emotion for the lazy. People who really care about you will be genuinely happy for you when you do well, and they will be there for you when you need an empathetic ear.

Yellow, maybe you would understand then...

I grew up really poor with a single mother who didn't clean, cook, or do much of anything except smoke cigarettes that I was deathly allergic to. People are very class-oriented and would judge me for being pretty much in the lowest class. Nothing that I could do about it except take care of myself, and figure out ways to make money so that I could have things. I didn't make birthday or Christmas lists because I would ask for stuff like paper plates because I was tired of eating off of scraps of cardboard because mom didn't do the dishes, and tossed them in the trash.

It has been a major setback having to support my mom, while trying to afford college, and being forced to move out and pay rent because I was chronically ill from the cigarette smoke. She is so self absorbed that I when I try to talk about anything important to me, she will interrupt and start talking about something insignificant in her life. I don't really like having to pay for her, but if I don't she will end up doing something stupid and be more of a burden.

The people who are my closets friends were a huge barrier to success. I would bring idea after idea to hear their feedback. They seemed smart, and their parents were upper-middle class. All that I would ever hear is that they were bad ideas and it wouldn't work. At some point I stopped valuing their opinions and suddenly ALL of my ideas were good.

Now that I'm all grown up, I was actually really successful and made a lot of money for a little while. Then I got taken advantage of a lot, and ended up getting screwed back down to having nothing again. I think you're right, there are a lot of people who want to keep you poor.

And now I started making a lot of money again, but I'm in a lot of debt so I'm still poor. I know in a year, I won't have debt. Actually, I might be making way more money than I can even imagine.

One thing that I've noticed is that poor people are terrified and despise rich people. People who grow up with wealth despise poor people for needing food stamps and government handouts. In reality, rich people get the most government assistance.

Envy is an emotion for the lazy. People who really care about you will be genuinely happy for you when you do well, and they will be there for you when you need an empathetic ear.

If this is true, then there isn't anyone who really cares about me. I was really struggling with things around 6 months ago. I asked around to see if anyone would listen or help. It drove me a bit crazy to realize no one was there when I needed them because I've always been independent and never needed help before. I've always been there for them, even when it was a huge burden. I had an expectation that at least one person would help. I was shocked when people basically abandoned me when I actually needed things. I mean, I pretty much had to lose everything before I got a little support, and only after reflecting back the ugly parts of their personalities. It was a shitty experience.

Thanks for the help! I'm feeling a bit better.

 

[Black Rose]

The people who are my closets friends were a huge barrier to success. I would bring idea after idea to hear their feedback. They seemed smart, and their parents were upper-middle class. All that I would ever hear is that they were bad ideas and it wouldn't work. At some point I stopped valuing their opinions and suddenly ALL of my ideas were good.

my mom was divorced but she took care of all three of us. but she called the police on us for fighting with each other. and i tried telling this man name Leonard my ideas but he said they were impractical because he was an auto mechanic. i cried allot because i though i was stupid. the only thing is that my ideas never went anywhere. in middle school i tried telling a kid about creating a.i. in a game boy but he said it would get stolen so i designed a way to prevent that but before that i tried explaining that coping the chip design cannot happen because the glue sticking the chip to the gameboy would prevent theft. when i was in high school the kids in the computer class disliked me because i tried to explain things to them that they did not understand what i was saying. the teachers though i had aspergers because i had no friends. and the people who were adult computer programmers would not listen either. i think it was because i was not good at math and i did not know high level coding. i was thinking about computers at the machine code level. even today i am on foodstamps because i could not get through collage. but now i met a new therapist that has a phd is psychology and i showed her all my papers i keept. she wants me to go back to school. I am 27.

the worst part is that i think my mom had Aspergers and this is why she did not encourage me.

 

[Yellow]

I know it's easier said than done, but you will be happier and probably healthier when you disentangle yourself. Loneliness sucks, but it's worse to be surrounded by people actively trying to drag you down.

My father had a minor solution to the "demanding money for support" issue. He was always working on something, so when his sister, nephew-in-law, etc., complained about money, he would offer to pay them a high wage to help him out. Like help him put up drywall, or paint the house for $15/hr (in 1998). Most refused (or acted insulted), but it helped him to feel like he had fulfilled his obligation.

Either way, you need better quality friends. And ones that don't look down on you for having been poor either. After all, there's a huge difference between being poor and belonging to the poverty class.

 

[computerhxr]

...

Why not learn high-level programming, and work on more practical ideas?

To me, AI is one of those things that is interesting to think about, but unless I had millions of dollars in funding and lots of help; I wouldn't spend time working on it.

I know several people with Aspergers. They end up being programmers because that's just what you do when you have it I guess. I worked with someone who had it and it was super frustrating. Then I took the time to learn about it, and understand how they think. You just have to understand things from their perspective and then it all makes sense.

I'm not particularly good at math either. I understand things abstractly, and the concreteness of math is overwhelming.

Having a low-level understanding is important, but so is the high-level understanding. People tend to think high-level is better but having a deep understanding is better for different reasons. The problem with deep understandings is that you can't explain it at a high-level so that others can understand. That's one thing that I've gotten good at, explaining low-level concepts to high-level thinkers.

Most people are high-level thinkers, and they are alluded into thinking that they understand things. I see this all the time with developers because teams of people run into problems and after weeks, months, and even years of struggle; it eventually makes its way to me. Because I have a low-level understanding, it's not a problem and I can solve it in my head with very little high-level information. So it takes me a few hours to solve.

So I understand what you are having problems with. I have low-level understandings of some things (non-computer related) and because I don't have a high-level understanding; I'm basically stuck with my ideas. I don't have the time or the energy to learn everything at a high-level.

Also, there is a major problem with high-level understanding. Even someone who is very intelligent, and know everything about their field, however, they haven't thought everything through because they take past knowledge as fact without challenging it.

To me, it sounds like you need more balance. Your ideas maybe good, maybe bad, maybe no one will understand. At the same time, learning other things will lead you to discovering more about the ideas you already have. You have to be practical to survive, and then you can think about impractical things.

Honestly, even if you did create a real AI, what will that do for you? There are lots of problems that need solving, and AI is not really high on that list. AI will create more problems than it solves in the early stages anyways.

 

[computerhxr]

My father had a minor solution to the "demanding money for support" issue. He was always working on something, so when his sister, nephew-in-law, etc., complained about money, he would offer to pay them a high wage to help him out. Like help him put up drywall, or paint the house for $15/hr (in 1998). Most refused (or acted insulted), but it helped him to feel like he had fulfilled his obligation.

It's just my family that needs money from me. It never really bothered me to give things and money away. It just is a burden sometimes and I always put myself last.

Either way, you need better quality friends. And ones that don't look down on you for having been poor either. After all, there's a huge difference between being poor and belonging to the poverty class.

I wish that we lived in a classless society. There are people who don't care so much about class. I think INTPs care less about class as it's a form of authority.

I do need better quality friends. I'm trying to figure out who these people are.

Actually, I feel a lot better now. I guess realizing that no one will be there when I need them is re-assuring because then I know I have to care for myself. The problem was that I expected someone to be there for me and when they weren't it was a free-fall.

 

[Black Rose]

To me, it sounds like you need more balance. Your ideas maybe good, maybe bad, maybe no one will understand. At the same time, learning other things will lead you to discovering more about the ideas you already have. You have to be practical to survive, and then you can think about impractical things.

Thank You
This is really good advice.

 

[computerhxr]

Thank You
This is really good advice.

Hmmm... Tried to link a video but it's not working.

 

[Black Rose]

@computerhxr

i think you have allot of Fi
its just my opinion but i think you are INTJ

Hmmm... Tried to link a video but it's not working.

i saw it on youtube by clicking the box.
it was inspirational.

 

[computerhxr]

i think you have allot of Fi
its just my opinion but i think you are INTJ

I'll do some reflecting and see.