Where did this myth that INTP are arrogant come from?

[Kdosi]

I was wondering the other day about this. I mean I sometimes think that people might have the feeling that I am a bit condescending (and frankly, if it is an issue I studied for years and it is evident that my discussion partner gathered all his or hers knowledge from a three-minute research on Wikipedia, I suppose I might slip into a professor mode), that I am a bit of a grammar Nazi (well certainly in my mother tongue - I sometimes make mistakes in English), but doesn´t arogance require certain self assured aspect?

What I am trying to convey is that I am 90 percent of the time NOT sure of myself. So when I am discussing things with people, I am attempting to find evidence that either supports or denies my view. And what I think being arogant means is creating your own opinion without anybody´s help (because you are the cleverest person in the room, obviously) and then promoting it to others in a very rigid and very haughty way.

So where do you think this opinion on INTPs had begun?

 

[snafupants]

Re: Where did this myth that INTP are arogant come from?

INTPs are judgers in MBTI speak and as Ti-doms they tend to discern issues for themselves.

To an outsider, such behavior might come off as arrogant or dismissive.

Also, INTPs tend to fetishize esoteric topics or play the intellectual dilettante.

What I am trying to convey is that I am 90 percent of the time NOT sure of myself. So when I am discussing things with people, I am attempting to find evidence that either supports or denies my view.

I understand how INTPs operate, so I forgive their petty bullshit.

Correcting grammar and whatnot gives the vibe of perceived superiority. That's just an outcropping of INTPs judging the shit out of things, which is fine.

Overconfidence and narcissism are the other side of the insecurity coin.

Where did this myth that INTP are arogant come from?

INTPs are arrogant. I suppose the question itself is leading. It's not a myth.

 

[redbaron]

Re: Where did this myth that INTP are arogant come from?

My arrogance is not myth.

 

[kora]

Re: Where did this myth that INTP are arogant come from?

It's a funny mix of uncertainty and arrogance. I'm pretentious as hell in topics I know anything about, but I know that my opinion can be changed if the other person argues well. I don't think this open mindedness means "not arrogant".

 

[Words]

Re: Where did this myth that INTP are arogant come from?

I can't really speak for all INTPs, and cognitive functions don't really talk much about arrogance. I do know that Ji tends to promote self-criticism. And Ti imposes a lot of doubt and second-guessing tendencies. My experiences with the few INTPs who I am certain to be INTPs is that "arrogance" isn't really fitting. It's as if they're just outside of that personality framework. They're just too impartial and too robotic to even be associated with any active traits such as "arrogance." They're just "there." Objective, advising, and adapting. Now, I can't really say the same for myself. I'm more sociable, engaging and really more of an ordinary person(unless I'm bored) but I'm generally far from arrogant. I guess what I'm trying to say is... I have no clue.

 

[pernoctator]

Re: Where did this myth that INTP are arogant come from?

What I am trying to convey is that I am 90 percent of the time NOT sure of myself. So when I am discussing things with people, I am attempting to find evidence that either supports or denies my view.

But once you have processed any particular piece of evidence, you lose interest in it. Processing it again is redundant, you think. And you've probably already had half the discussion in your mind before you even started talking to the person. People see your impatience with redundancy and see you as being quick to judge. The problem is it's ultimately a selfish quest; you ultimately value your own understanding over theirs and the discussion itself, so less effort goes to explaining yourself when something is already clear to you.

 

[yogurtexpress]

Re: Where did this myth that INTP are arogant come from?

Maybe arrogant in terms of being confident in our objective truths. It's not like INTJs who stick to their own version of the truth.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Re: Where did this myth that INTP are arogant come from?

So where do you think this opinion on INTPs had begun?

With the OP?

 

[snafupants]

Re: Where did this myth that INTP are arogant come from?

Maybe arrogant in terms of being confident in our objective truths. It's not like INTJs who stick to their own version of the truth.

Hopefully that statement was meant ironically.

 

[addictedartist]

Re: Where did this myth that INTP are arogant come from?

aloofness

 

[snafupants]

Re: Where did this myth that INTP are arogant come from?

aloofness

Certainly more laconic than my first post. I agree.

Western society mistrusts introversion or aloofness. It's somehow dangerous not to know what someone is privately carrying on about (see: James Holmes or Ted Kaczynski) for too long.

The schemer or mad scientist hell-bent on enslaving or desecrating the world is usually depicted, in movies and other entertainments, as socially jilted or rejected by an idiot culture.

There are some exceptions, like cult leaders or outright Hitlers, but the principle holds pretty well.

 

[kantor1003]

Re: Where did this myth that INTP are arogant come from?

There are some exceptions, like cult leaders or outright Hitlers, but the principle holds pretty well.

But then it's not a principle!!!

 

[Tony3d]

INTPs are blunt by nature, and in a world where people tend to sugar-coat stuff, that can be confused as arrogant.

 

[EditorOne]

It is perhaps the best word people can find when they perceive we don't react emotionally the same way they do, that is, we don't seem to "care" about things most people do care about.
And that includes stating things without realizing the words hurt someone, indifference in the face of other's pain, etc.
While I certainly can choose to be arrogant from time to time, and don't care who knows it, it has been annoying over the years to be accused of arrogance when none was intended on my part nor, so far as I know, none was demonstrated on my part. "Yet another emotional briar patch; how do these people even function?" is my reaction.

 

[SpaceYeti]

I think our uncertainty is to blame for this perception. Since we don't talk unless we know what we're talking about, we only project confidence in those things that we say. We also generally talk down to the people we explain this stuff to, because we were only prompted to say something because somebody else was so horribly wrong and we needed to correct them. We don't necessarily think the person is stupid, but it seems that way because we explained it like it should be obvious.

 

[EditorOne]

^ This resonates also.

 

[yogurtexpress]

Re: Where did this myth that INTP are arogant come from?

Hopefully that statement was meant ironically.

Nope.

 

[Silentdawn]

I've noticed this too. I think it might have something to do with our apparent apathy. I find people are often more comfortable when they can tell what you're thinking or feeling to the extent that some would rather be insulted than to suffer (what they believe to be) a reproachful silence.
Also, I've noticed that when most other people socialise, they do so with the purpose of bonding so when they talk about a particular topic, they tend to make out that they agree with each other's opinions and make remarks intended to be humourous rather than accurate about the given topic wheras I find myself driving for the purpose to inform and share my knowledge so I end up explaining the topic in depth (if I happen to know it well) and correcting other people's mistakes. People then tend to see it as an act of showing off.
In addition, I think INTPs tend to be more blunt, aiming to speak truthfully above all else wheras others may take into consideration the feelings their words may cause and be more tactful, sometimes at the expense of being more waffly and less accurate.

 

[snafupants]

Re: Where did this myth that INTP are arogant come from?

But then it's not a principle!!!

@kantor1003

Sure it is - because the principle is still a fundamental source or basis for something (alternate definition). In textbooks laying out ethics and law you see principles, which are basically non-binding precepts. Principles can, moreover, merely be fundamental tenets with loose ties to reality.

 

[kvothe27]

The arrogance is the result of INTPs needing to correct perceived falsehood. If someone says something illogical, INTPs will want to correct it. This behavior could be misconstrued as arrogance. This would especially be the case among feelers who are less likely to develop opinions based on logic but their subjective experience. Such a correction of a feeler could be misconstrued as an attack on a feeler's identity. The feeler would then label the INTP as arrogant, among other possible things, to protect the feeler's ego. In the case of SJs, the INTP would be seen as rebellious. Questioning established institutions would be perceived as arrogant. They're established for a reason, the SJ may argue. Who the hell does this guy think he is?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems likely that the arrogance label is more often and more likely to be applied to immature INTPs. Those with greater psychic balance will be more likely to take other people's feelings into consideration before expressing their opinions or pointing out logical errors. In other words, subjective considerations become more important to the INTP. This is because the feelings of other people can be the difference between a successful INTP and an isolated misanthrope. Fe takes on a more important role because Ti realizes the logic of taking into consideration other people's feelings.

 

[snafupants]

The arrogance is the result of INTPs needing to correct perceived falsehood. If someone says something illogical, INTPs will want to correct it. This behavior could be misconstrued as arrogance.

Pretty much. I believe the problem lies with the person undergoing correction though.

It's basically an inferiority complex. I, unlike most people, fully acknowledge personal shortcomings.

I mean, you can hit a target blindfolded, with enough trial and error, but identifying the problem and dealing with it is superior to letting time or chance haphazardly rectify things.

 

[kvothe27]

It's also important to take into consideration the refractory state that can accompany emotional responses. The refractory state is one in which new input is neglected and the person undergoing the emotional episode is interpreting things according to a prior experience. Questioning something that is valuable to another person can cause that person to apply an interpretive lens to the situation where your emotions or presentation become irrelevant to the interpretation. You question something of value to someone, that person becomes offended, proceeds into this refractory state, and disregards any body language signals from you suggestive of humility or self-doubt. "Fuck this guy. He dares to question X just like that one jackass did five years ago. I'm going to let him have it." At this point, it's best just to ride it out. Reason can do no more good here. To the Bridge of Khazad-dum!

 

[snafupants]

It's also important to take into consideration the refractory state that can accompany emotional responses. The refractory state is one in which new input is neglected and the person undergoing the emotional episode is interpreting things according to a prior experience. Questioning something that is valuable to another person can cause that person to apply an interpretive lens to the situation where your emotions or presentation become irrelevant to the interpretation. You question something of value to someone, that person becomes offended, proceeds into this refractory state, and disregards any body language signals from you suggestive of humility or self-doubt. "Fuck this guy. He dares to question X just like that one jackass did five years ago. I'm going to let him have it." At this point, it's best just to ride it out. Reason can do no more good here. To the Bridge of Khazad-dum!

I hear that but I'm talking about grammar corrections and the like rather than value derogations.

 

[Moocow]

It's basically an inferiority complex. I, unlike most people, fully acknowledge personal shortcomings.

Right that's good and all but I underlined what I suspect is the real culprit.

 

[snafupants]

Right that's good and all but I underlined what I suspect is the real culprit.

@Moocow

Exactly. Unlike most people who personify their inferiority complex.

Show me evidence. Prove me wrong, and I will own up to it. Perhaps you will too.

This tendency, however, isn't shared by the larger population on the whole.

 

[kvothe27]

I was speaking generally. However, it's not hard to imagine a prior experience causing a refractory period in some later interaction in the case of corrections of grammat, For example, someone with dyslexia who was bullied for it. This is an extreme example, but you get the idea.

However, the refractory state could potentially be explained by the inferiority complex, so I don't think there is an actual disagreement. Being bullied for dyslexia potentially leads to the inferiority complex causing more frequent and worse refractory periods. . .

 

[snafupants]

I was speaking generally. However, it's not hard to imagine a prior experience causing a refractory period in some later interaction in the case of corrections of grammat, For example, someone with dyslexia who was bullied for it. This is an extreme example, but you get the idea.

However, the refractory state could potentially be explained by the inferiority complex, so I don't think there is an actual disagreement. Being bullied for dyslexia potentially leads to the inferiority complex causing more frequent and worse refractory periods. . .

It doesn't really matter what caused the inferiority complex.

I simply mentioned that some folks are reluctant to assimilate new information because of an inferiority complex. Their ego can't handle that they're wrong so they dismiss the correction.

Then, I said that I could handle new information, which isn't any unique feat. For whatever reason, Moocow took exception with my phrasing or some damned thing and got defensive and touchy.

 

[Moocow]

@Moocow

Exactly. Unlike most people who personify their inferiority complex.

Show me evidence. Prove me wrong, and I will own up to it. Perhaps you will too.

This tendency, however, isn't shared by the larger population on the whole.

I'm not sure what you're asking me to own up to, I'm just saying it might be arrogant to just assume you can generalize the majority then place yourself above it.

got defensive and touchy.

 

[kvothe27]

It doesn't really matter what caused the inferiority complex.

I simply mentioned that some folks are reluctant to assimilate new information because of an inferiority complex. Their ego can't handle that they're wrong so they dismiss the correction.

Then, I said that I could handle new information, which isn't any unique feat. For whatever reason, Moocow took exception with my phrasing or some damned thing and got defensive and touchy.

Really? Do you mean in all cases or some? I'd imagine the Ne-Ti axis would provide a level of detachment for INTPs to be more conducive for new information. On the other hand, the lack of knowledge of an immature INTP's feelings could result in an especially refractory period-prone INTP.

 

[snafupants]

I'm not sure what you're asking me to own up to, I'm just saying it might be arrogant to just assume you can generalize the majority then place yourself above it.

@Moocow

Above? Arrogant? Hardly. I see the issue as non-hierarchical.

There are things, even psychopathological things, that all people are guilty of at some point, right?

Suppose I was black. Would it be uncouth to call myself part of the US demographical minority?

You may have added some sentiments that I didn't intend or connote.

 

[kvothe27]

Actually, given the INTPs tendency to detach and wall off their emotions, the immature INTP may be less likely to acknowledge emotional outbursts. This is because dealing with emotions can lead to stronger emotions. Fear of becoming overwhelmed by emotion may result in the INTP walling the behavior off to maintain detachment. Indeed, this ignorance of emotion could result in a high incidence of mental illness. Peruse these forums and you'll see a high rate of emotional problems. Would someone with an inferiority complex be more likely to brag? If that is the case, then inferiority complexes may abound on these forums. *prepares for thrashing*

 

[Moocow]

@snafupants remember we're talking about perceived arrogance and I doubt anyone likes it when others swing around any kind of minority status. "Arrogance" may be the first impression people get when met with others' claims of being in the minority for any sort of downward comparison of sheer character traits.

 

[snafupants]

@snafupants remember we're talking about perceived arrogance and I doubt anyone likes it when others swing around any kind of minority status.

What difference does it make?! Blacks are or any not demographical minorities in the United States.

This isn't some feel-good Lifetime movie. It's a categorical. Feelings and facts are separate entities.

 

[Moocow]

What difference does it make?! Blacks are or any not demographical minorities in the United States.

This isn't some feel-good Lifetime movie. It's a categorical. Feelings and facts are separate entities.

Here is a silly emoticon to soothe your feelings of frustration.

I'm posting my observation of how others tend to react, not my own opinions. That is why I reminded you of the thread topic. I can't really answer your questions on behalf of anyone who actually would care.

 

[snafupants]

Here is a silly emoticon to soothe your feelings of frustration.

I'm posting my observation of how others tend to react, not my own opinions. That is why I reminded you of the thread topic. I can't really answer your questions on behalf of anyone who actually would care.

@Moocow

I'm actually playing chess on the side right now - not at all frustrated.

Arguments are just fun!

 

[EmergingAlbert]

Re: Where did this myth that INTP are arogant come from?

aloofness

I think you're right on. Strong extraverts tend to perceive introversion and detachedness as arrogance.

 

[snafupants]

Re: Where did this myth that INTP are arogant come from?

I think you're right on. Strong extraverts tend to perceive introversion and detachedness as arrogance.

Er, I wouldn't call it an extravert prejudice.

It just looks that way because most idiots tend to be loud.

I would say it's more of a prejudice held by undiscerning brutes.

 

[EmergingAlbert]

The arrogance is the result of INTPs needing to correct perceived falsehood. If someone says something illogical, INTPs will want to correct it. This behavior could be misconstrued as arrogance.

I think this is a very good point. I also find this quite ironic and even humorous because I literally JUST got in trouble for this at work just about an hour ago. I work in a call center, and a customer was complaining that "we have been on the phone for an hour and a half." I took a look at my call monitor, and we had been on the phone for an hour and 22 seconds, so I said, "We have been on the phone for an hour and 22 seconds," thinking that might comfort her knowing that we hadn't been on the phone that long. Then my manager called me over and told me NEVER to tell a guest that again because it was "condescending." Now that she said it that way, I can see where she's coming from, but before she pointed it out, I'd never have even thought that.

 

[Niclmaki]

I think our uncertainty is to blame for this perception. Since we don't talk unless we know what we're talking about, we only project confidence in those things that we say. We also generally talk down to the people we explain this stuff to, because we were only prompted to say something because somebody else was so horribly wrong and we needed to correct them. We don't necessarily think the person is stupid, but it seems that way because we explained it like it should be obvious.

Mostly this. INTPs like to promote clarity in areas where there is uncertainty. Only speaking when it's to provide this can give one an arrogent-like face. I think it also contributes to us seeming to be the smartest in the room (true or not).

And in regard to "talking down" to people - I think this diminishes as we develop our feeling side more. My brother (who is an INTP) does the condecending sounding speech to me all the time about subjects that he KNOWS. It's easy to take it personally, but thinking types aren't concerning themselves with feelings / offending others.

I like to think that I'm not as jagged as I once was, but people still say I am. > dumb feeler dominates.

Spoiler

JOKING

 

[doncarlzone]

Re: Where did this myth that INTP are arogant come from?

Er, I wouldn't call it an extravert prejudice.

It just looks that way because most idiots tend to be loud.

I would say it's more of a prejudice held by undiscerning brutes.

You both have a point. I can't count the number of times I've been perceived as arrogant by people who don't know me. There are so many things you can do that will leave to this conclusion, here is a few I have noticed:

- Not doing ping-pong small-talk efficiently
- Not laughing when everybody else laugh
- Not smiling
- Not talking
- Looking serious
- Being self-conscious
- Suggesting a rational solution to an emotional problem
- Not being extroverted
- Thinking...

It's just ignorance in most cases. One of my ISTJ friends with same issue (very introverted), had an HR Manager in his company mention that people thought he didn't smile very much and stuck with the same people all the time.

That's obviously completely unacceptable and disrespectful coming from an HR Manager in the first place, but it just shows the ignorance there is among a lot "normal" people.

 

[INeedToPee]

well...when you're this smart you kinda have to be arrogant...
haha just joking..sorta. i mean, i do feel a bit of arrogance when thinking about other people. my Ti tells me "this guy is totally wrong, wtf is he talking about, he should be doing X not Y!" but my Ne says "maybe theres a possiblity that im wrong..." and so what ends out coming out of my mouth is: "hey dude i don't think its Y..." or "what about X?"

so im thinking that the idea that INTPs are arrogant is either from:
(a) people who got corrected by an INTP once and thus conceived us as arrogant (i think this only happens when the INTP comes off as absolutely certain and dismissive)
(b) an INTP like myself who knows he is arrogant because of all the spiteful thoughts that run through his head when coming across someone who is incompetent

 

[TheScornedReflex]

I couldn't agree more. I personally find it confusing when people put emotional value on seemingly unemotional points/views (to me). I find it difficult to adjust to this causing me to become distant. Basically the more I try to take other peoples emotions into account the more I fail and resort to a 'benign ambiance'. If that makes sense

 

[EmergingAlbert]

I personally find it confusing when people put emotional value on seemingly unemotional points/views (to me).

Such as...?

 

[joal0503]

I was wondering the other day about this. I mean I sometimes think that people might have the feeling that I am a bit condescending (and frankly, if it is an issue I studied for years and it is evident that my discussion partner gathered all his or hers knowledge from a three-minute research on Wikipedia, I suppose I might slip into a professor mode), that I am a bit of a grammar Nazi (well certainly in my mother tongue - I sometimes make mistakes in English), but doesn´t arogance require certain self assured aspect?

What I am trying to convey is that I am 90 percent of the time NOT sure of myself. So when I am discussing things with people, I am attempting to find evidence that either supports or denies my view. And what I think being arogant means is creating your own opinion without anybody´s help (because you are the cleverest person in the room, obviously) and then promoting it to others in a very rigid and very haughty way.

So where do you think this opinion on INTPs had begun?

I could care less about formalities in grammar and punctuation...especially when i know the other person im talking to is competent enough to understand the message im trying to get at.

As far as discussing arrogance...Keirsay puts it like

An architect often perceives himself as being one of the few individuals capable of defining the ends a society must achieve and will often strive to find the most efficient means to accomplish their ends. This perspective can make Architects seem arrogant to others.

were only trying to do what we think is 'best' or optimal for achieving the right outcome. Its a myth in our heads, after all we are simply seeking truth, but when we go overboard or far in depth, others may perceive it as arrogance. my interpretation at least.

 

[Notyouraverageuser]

You may come across arrogant to others if you don't respect what others have to say and insist that your theory is the best. I think you have to at least act like you are taking their input into account. The only problem with this though is that people will want feedback as to why their way isn't better. When you offer that feedback, they most likely won't understand and deem you "arrogant" unless you act like their opinion is some new found discovery.

 

[TheScornedReflex]

Such as...?

This may not be a satisfactory example and I apologize, but its the most recent one that happened.

I told my step mum that, (as I thought we were debating), there are to many children being born on earth,(to big a population would have been a better choice to say in hindsight), and in a few decades we could very well not have the resources to feed everyone... It was longer but she only heard the to many kids part becoming adament that they had a right to live and that they where precious,which I agree with to an extent but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. But she got angry at the one part of the argument and wouldn't leave it alone that I couldn't fully and properly explain myself. So I gave up.


Ignorance is bliss to those that are unwilling to listen and learn

 

[snafupants]

You may come across arrogant to others if you don't respect what others have to say and insist that your theory is the best. I think you have to at least act like you are taking their input into account. The only problem with this though is that people will want feedback as to why their way isn't better. When you offer that feedback, they most likely won't understand and deem you "arrogant" unless you act like their opinion is some new found discovery.

I guess Dario Nardi's neuropsychological research, which was methodologically limited, showed that Ti was the least interested in listening among the eight functions/types.

 

[Notyouraverageuser]

I guess Dario Nardi's neuropsychological research, which was methodologically limited, showed that Ti was the least interested in listening among the eight functions/types.

Well, you and I both know how it is to be forced to hear someone out because they incessantly whine about you always thinking you are right. What it really comes down to is either:
1. You already know what they are going to say based off of previous observations made.
2. They proved to be so incompetent, that nothing coming out of their mouth will be worth listening to.

 

[GodOfOrder]

As INTPs we tend to question everything and hold no ideology, theory, concept, or idea sacred. As a result people often find us upsetting or questioning their world view. To them it comes off as arrogance, as it appears that we think we know everything, when in fact we think we know nothing.

It is the Socrates effect. Socrates seemed like an arrogant bastard, when in reality he was just a ruthless and honest questioner of everything. It is also worth mentioning that they killed him for it!
(By the way, Socrates was also an INTP)

 

[snafupants]

As INTPs we tend to question everything and hold no ideology, theory, concept, or idea sacred.

@GodOfOrder

It's more than iconoclasm; other NTs are iconoclastic, yet they are not viewed as arrogant. An INTP, because of dominant Ti judging, uses a pre-ordained intellectual sieve to tackle information. In this sense, they may be called unreasonable or stubborn. There's the semblance of open-mindedness with Ne-aux, however, the commander in chief is Ti, which brooks no quick alterations to its worldview. The dissonance between the fun-loving public persona (Ne) and the INTP's reluctance to assimilate fresh data quickly in conversation, plus the surety of Ti convictions, nettles interlocutors (haha) who want some give. In other words, an INTP seems more open-minded than s/he really is.