What's the strongest argument for atheism?

[Old Things]

@birdsnestfern what @Old Things is saying is that people long ago as today do not obey Gods words. You cannot expect things to change unless we start at some point in time with God telling people what is right and wrong. It then needs to spread to everyone from that central point. So the start is with Abraham then we go to Moses then we go to Jesus. No one would obey God except Abraham then Moses set up the laws people disobeyed as well and now Jesus is supposed to show us the way for all humans.

In the New Testament, many times people had to be told the difference between the old ways and the new ways. It is because people cannot think in the right way (Gods way) to begin with.

Here Paul talks about the law (what is required under the customs) that man can not follow perfectly in regard to being in Christ:

Galations 5

1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Paul is saying that in no way can humans justify themselves to God to become perfect. only Jesus can make us free, and if people are free then by no means can we justify the mistreatment of others because God sees all people as equal.

This is the complete opposite of might makes right (I can do what I want if I have power over others)

-

This may be small because I only know so many bible verses but as I grew up this was instilled in me what Jesus meant. The Bible is not a rule book, it was written to certain people at certain times. The original apostles were spending a message that required them to teach and demonstrate to others what God's new ways were. This would not have worked in the times of Moses because people still did not even know that killing was wrong.

Yes, more or less, this is correct. I might differ with some of the details, but the overall gist is correct.

Without a belief in G-d, morals are only human conventions. They can be ignored when humans are not watching or can be bribed to look the other way.

The moral argument is a good one.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Without a belief in G-d, morals are only human conventions. They can be ignored when humans are not watching or can be bribed to look the other way.

belief in a G-d does nothing to keep people from ignoring (unspecified) "morals"

 

[Old Things]

Without a belief in G-d, morals are only human conventions. They can be ignored when humans are not watching or can be bribed to look the other way.

belief in a G-d does nothing to keep people from ignoring (unspecified) "morals"

Exactly what part of @scorpiomover's argument are you denying?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Exactly what part of @scorpiomover's argument are you denying?

the suggestion seems to be that if someone believes in G-d

they are somehow impeded from ignoring (unspecified) "morals"

this is obviously false

 

[Old Things]

Exactly what part of @scorpiomover's argument are you denying?

the suggestion seems to be that if someone believes in G-d

they are somehow impeded from ignoring (unspecified) "morals"

this is obviously false

I don't think that is the argument. That certainly is not stated in the argument. I think you are inserting your own meaning into the argument.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Exactly what part of @scorpiomover's argument are you denying?

the other rather devastating implication

is that (IFF) someone beelievz in G-d (THEN) they always know the perfect definition of "moral" (according to G-d) and furthermore they will always agree with every other someone who beelievz in G-d

 

[birdsnestfern]

The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Paul is saying that in no way can humans justify themselves to God to become perfect. only Jesus can make us free, and if people are free then by no means can we justify the mistreatment of others because God sees all people as equal.

This is the complete opposite of might makes right (I can do what I want if I have power over others)

This may be small because I only know so many bible verses but as I grew up this was instilled in me what Jesus meant. The Bible is not a rule book, it was written to certain people at certain times. The original apostles were spending a message that required them to teach and demonstrate to others what God's new ways were. This would not have worked in the times of Moses because people still did not even know that killing was wrong.

Alright. Now that I thought was beautiful thinking. Thanks.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I don't think that is the argument. That certainly is not stated in the argument. I think you are inserting your own meaning into the argument.

ok great, so is there any moral benefit from belief in G-d ?

are people who believe in G-d generally considered more "moral" than those who remain unconvinced ?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

only Jesus can make us free, and if people are free then by no means can we justify the mistreatment of others because God sees all people as equal.

it would be amazing if every person who believed in jesus was against war

 

[Black Rose]

ok great, so is there any moral benefit from belief in G-d ?

God (G-d) keeps people honest about their actions.

or at least those who are not self-deceived.

are people who believe in G-d generally considered more "moral" than those who remain unconvinced ?

People generally need self-reflection to keep from making the same mistakes over and over. In the exodus, God's people saw God do stuff but still complained.

 

[scorpiomover]

belief in a G-d does nothing to keep people from ignoring (unspecified) "morals"

Define "belief" as a type of cognitive state.
Define the connection between cognitive states and their results.
QED.

 

[Old Things]

I don't think that is the argument. That certainly is not stated in the argument. I think you are inserting your own meaning into the argument.

ok great, so is there any moral benefit from belief in G-d ?

are people who believe in G-d generally considered more "moral" than those who remain unconvinced ?

Depends on how you parse that out. Christian Protestantism is largely responsible for making hospitals, colleges, mass education, mass literacy, etc. Also, we can say that Christianity is responsible for democratic governments where Christians are largely present. Again, I think this is largely attributed to Protestants. You might say that is not ideal, but democracy seems to be good for people as a whole. Science is also largely a Christian undertaking. Now, when you zoom into individuals, you find that intrinsic belief (what I have talked about before where it is people who actually believe in the religion because they want to follow the tenets of said religion) typically has a range of benefits such as a greater chance to volunteer (even for secular organizations) and improved mental health, lower crime rates, etc.

See this video for more.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Define "belief" as a type of cognitive state.
Define the connection between cognitive states and their results.
QED

Belief is a mental state where an individual accepts something as true or real without absolute proof. Cognitive states influence our perceptions, thoughts, and behaviors, leading to various outcomes.


now what ?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

and improved mental health, lower crime rates, etc.

approximately 60-70% of american prisoners identify as christian

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Christian Protestantism is largely responsible for making hospitals, colleges, mass education, mass literacy, etc. Also, we can say that Christianity is responsible for democratic governments where Christians are largely present. Again, I think this is largely attributed to Protestants.

i'm not convinced this is your best argument

mostly because the protestant bible doesn't really tell people to do this stuff

but also because non christians also do all this stuff without knowing jesus

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

God (G-d) keeps people honest about their actions.

nope

most christians i know blame "satan" for their personal failings

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

People generally need self-reflection to keep from making the same mistakes over and over.

which part of the bible do you think promotes self-reflection ?

 

[Black Rose]

God (G-d) keeps people honest about their actions.

nope

most christians i know blame "satan" for their personal failings

that is why they lack self-reflection

People generally need self-reflection to keep from making the same mistakes over and over.

which part of the bible do you think promotes self-reflection ?

that comes from within the person

this will determine how one interprets the bible

 

[Old Things]

and improved mental health, lower crime rates, etc.

approximately 60-70% of american prisoners identify as christian

Perhaps. A lot of prisoners get saved after going to prison. Why? They will give prisoners a Bible.

Christian Protestantism is largely responsible for making hospitals, colleges, mass education, mass literacy, etc. Also, we can say that Christianity is responsible for democratic governments where Christians are largely present. Again, I think this is largely attributed to Protestants.

i'm not convinced this is your best argument

mostly because the protestant bible doesn't really tell people to do this stuff

but also because non christians also do all this stuff without knowing jesus

It is an outgrowth of Protestant values. That is how these things started. Does that mean everyone who works at a hospital today is a Christian? Of course not. However, the idea of hospitals was a Christian ideal. Same with mass education. Why? Because Protestants have historically cared for the down and outers. We also see that a lot of countries developed into a democracy because of missionaries.

 

[BurnedOut]

For an all-powerful entity, he surely has a fetish for ding-dongs, extreme homophobia, genocidal tendencies and complete disregard towards the plight of the oppressed. He also is utterly sexist and constantly makes classist and racist remarks in his holy books and has labrynthine worship requirements. But he is the biggest fraud in this world because nobody's prayers are answered. Children get abused, raped, blown to bits in wars, LGBTQIA+, atheists, rationalists are constantly butchered by his zealots. His grand plan also includes unsustainable exploitation of resources and destruction of earth. He also has a warped sense of humour by creating the disabled who are treated like filth and freaks of nature and enjoys red tapism in the form of doctors and science instead of spontaneously creating/destroyed what is required. Have not seen a bigger psychopath than this space daddy

 

[Old Things]

For an all-powerful entity, he surely has a fetish for ding-dongs, extreme homophobia, genocidal tendencies and complete disregard towards the plight of the oppressed. He also is utterly sexist and constantly makes classist and racist remarks in his holy books and has labrynthine worship requirements. But he is the biggest fraud in this world because nobody's prayers are answered. Children get abused, raped, blown to bits in wars, LGBTQIA+, atheists, rationalists are constantly butchered by his zealots. His grand plan also includes unsustainable exploitation of resources and destruction of earth. He also has a warped sense of humour by creating the disabled who are treated like filth and freaks of nature and enjoys red tapism in the form of doctors and science instead of spontaneously creating/destroyed what is required. Have not seen a bigger psychopath than this space daddy

I honestly think you are projecting all this on a specific group of Christians. There is hardly anything true about this at all.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Perhaps. A lot of prisoners get saved after going to prison. Why? They will give prisoners a Bible.

The United States has a current recidivism rate of 70% within 5 years (U.S. Prison Population, 2019). This means that, within 5 years of their release, 70% of prisoners will have reoffended. In comparison, Norway has one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world at 20% within 5 years. The biggest reason for this large difference in percentages is that the United States tends to focus on punishment in our criminal justice system, whereas European countries like Norway focus on rehabilitating their inmates.

https://scholarworks.wmich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4677&context=honors_theses

 

[BurnedOut]

I honestly think you are projecting all this on a specific group of Christians.

Are you kidding me? All 'legit' gods are males in all cultures and all of them are space daddies. Quran does not shy away from violence and Bhagwat Gita also perpetuates the idea of caste and class consciousness. No god is above genocide and none of them preach peace. Sikhs and muslims have warrior gods and they take pride in 'culling' their enemies. LGBTQ, atheists, children and women are obliterated in all cultures and all cultures have their psychotic zealots. Furthermore god knows why some his followers are obsessed with genital mutilation. Looks like he loves torture-porn too. And he cannot even protect the truly innocent. Is this a part of God's plan? Surely his plans involves rapists and sociopaths running amok. Just look at the leaders of today's world. They are the most religious

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Because Protestants have historically cared for the down and outers.

and that's fantastic

i wish all christians were anti-war

anti-hate

take care of the sick and the poor

but strangely


this doesn't seem to be the case

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

that comes from within the person

we can agree on that part

 

[Old Things]

I honestly think you are projecting all this on a specific group of Christians.

Are you kidding me? All 'legit' gods are males in all cultures and all of them are space daddies. Quran does not shy away from violence and Bhagwat Gita also perpetuates the idea of caste and class consciousness. No god is above genocide and none of them preach peace. Sikhs and muslims have warrior gods and they take pride in 'culling' their enemies. LGBTQ, atheists, children and women are obliterated in all cultures and all cultures have their psychotic zealots. Furthermore god knows why some his followers are obsessed with genital mutilation. Looks like he loves torture-porn too. And he cannot even protect the truly innocent. Is this a part of God's plan? Surely his plans involves rapists and sociopaths running amok. Just look at the leaders of today's world. They are the most religious

View attachment 7946

View attachment 7945

First tell me how much of the New Testament you have read.

 

[Old Things]

Because Protestants have historically cared for the down and outers.

and that's fantastic

i wish all christians were anti-war

anti-hate

take care of the sick and the poor

but strangely


this doesn't seem to be the case

They still do. That is why there are organizations like Samaritans Purse and such.

 

[Old Things]

Perhaps. A lot of prisoners get saved after going to prison. Why? They will give prisoners a Bible.

The United States has a current recidivism rate of 70% within 5 years (U.S. Prison Population, 2019). This means that, within 5 years of their release, 70% of prisoners will have reoffended. In comparison, Norway has one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world at 20% within 5 years. The biggest reason for this large difference in percentages is that the United States tends to focus on punishment in our criminal justice system, whereas European countries like Norway focus on rehabilitating their inmates.

https://scholarworks.wmich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4677&context=honors_theses

Why would you expect such a radical change from people? Most prisoners are also high in being disagreeable in Big 5.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Why would you expect such a radical change from people? Most prisoners are also high in being disagreeable in Big 5.

you would think the perfectly true word of an all powerful creator should be able to move that needle a smidge

 

[ZenRaiden]

The reality is atheism does not require any arguments.
Atheism is default setting.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

The reality is atheism does not require any arguments.
Atheism is default setting.

it seems so obvious when you say it out loud

 

[Old Things]

you would think the perfectly true word of an all powerful creator should be able to move that needle a smidge

It probably does change them. To say it produces no change would be a much harder argument to make.

The reality is atheism does not require any arguments.
Atheism is default setting.

Children generally believe in a higher power before they are indoctrinated out of it. Sorry, that might sound harsh, but studies have been done on this.

Humans 'predisposed' to believe in gods and the afterlife

New research finds that humans have natural tendencies to believe in gods and an afterlife. Research suggests that people across many different cultures instinctively believe that some part of their mind, soul or spirit lives on after-death. The studies demonstrate that people are natural...

www.sciencedaily.com

 

[EndogenousRebel]

It doesn't bode well for theism when the most ignorant and vulnerable population believe in something that is very convenient for them if true.

I did have a sibling who claimed to be an angle of god in some holy war, and they said that if they talked about it they would forget. Ask him now and he has no memory of it.

I wouldn't say atheism is the default. You have to accept a certain number of assumptions. There are way more assumptions in theism though.

 

[ZenRaiden]

I wouldn't say atheism is the default.

What I mean is "someone has to introduce the concept to you."
Or have you encountered kids that by default believe in Santa?, Ghosts?, God?, big bad devil who will take them away if they don't listen to parents?, etc. etc.

Also just side note, how many kids are born and not gullible?

How many kids are critical minded enough to know the context of these things in the same context of grown ups. Well the answer is none.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Children generally believe in a higher power before they are indoctrinated out of it.

• Studies by Emily Reed Burdett and Justin Barrett, from the University of Oxford, suggest that children below the age of five find it easier to believe in some superhuman properties than to understand similar human limitations. Children were asked whether their mother would know the contents of a box in which she could not see. Children aged three believed that their mother and God would always know the contents, but by the age of four, children start to understand that their mothers are not all-seeing and all knowing. However, children may continue to believe in all-seeing, all-knowing supernatural agents, such as a god or gods.

i remember wondering how my parents knew so much about what i was doing when i was a kid

like, hey, why did you get cookies out of the jar when you thought i wasn't looking ?


now it seems so obvious


i probably left crumbs all over the place


but at the time


i thought they could see through walls or maybe even read my mind




i guess some of us naturally grow out of that

 

[Old Things]

However, children may continue to believe in all-seeing, all-knowing supernatural agents, such as a god or gods.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

I wouldn't say atheism is the default.

What I mean is "someone has to introduce the concept to you."
Or have you encountered kids that by default believe in Santa?, Ghosts?, God?, big bad devil who will take them away if they don't listen to parents?, etc. etc.

Also just side note, how many kids are born and not gullible?

How many kids are critical minded enough to know the context of these things in the same context of grown ups. Well the answer is none.

Eh. That's my problem, I'm not monitoring the kids 24/7 who knows who told my brother about god(s) or angels. I know I didn't, but my mother may very well have brought it up. It seems out of character even for her though, but there were definitely many people around this kid by the time they were 5yo.

But yeah I generally agree that children are implicitly trusting of adults unless conditioned otherwise. Skepticism at a young age would have to have some genetic component I think.

Conversely, I think that children will gladly fill in the blanks with their imagination even (especially) if they don't have the answers. Does that include an afterlife and a supreme deity? Probably not, that's pretty sophisticated shit. I think ghosts is something kids could come up with on their own.

Testimony from a kid is not realiable in my opinion, but also, maybe that's cultures fault?

Interesting tangent, but pretty moot because these things are so ingrained in culture they may be impossible to ethically test.

 

[Black Rose]

There are way more assumptions in theism though.

What I mean is "someone has to introduce the concept to you."

Can you imagine that everything you do is seen by a higher power?

That may be the only requirement.

I felt the universe as empty.

And it was strange.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

Can you imagine that everything you do is seen by a higher power?

Good point. Then again, what's stopping you from thinking it's aliens or some other sci-fi apparition? Why is it some sort of ontological omnipresent agent?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Also just side note, how many kids are born and not gullible?

i can honestly say i never believed in santa

but my parents didn't really push it

they told me stuff like jesus loves me

but it always sounded like some relative i'd never met or didn't remember

we had a lot of relatives and they all loved me, or so i was told and i could never keep all their names straight

they told me all the stories in the bible were "true"

but that noah's ark thing crumbled to pieces

when i started asking for more detail around the time i was maybe nine or ten

i also asked why

if god can hear your thoughts

why does everyone feel the need to pray out loud ?

i asked god for stuff all the time

and i never got anything

 

[EndogenousRebel]

i can honestly say i never believed in santa

but my parents didn't really push it

To me it was night and day. They are pretending Santa is real vs. they hold that God is real.

We all gather round the priest to hear him preach about this really cool guy called Yaweh, but Santa just breaks into people's houses and is never seen, and doesn't even show up to do some magic tricks. Wack.

 

[Black Rose]

Can you imagine that everything you do is seen by a higher power?

Good point. Then again, what's stopping you from thinking it's aliens or some other sci-fi apparition? Why is it some sort of ontological omnipresent agent?

Because like the empty universe feeling,

it has no central focus

just "one with all"

 

[EndogenousRebel]

Can you imagine that everything you do is seen by a higher power?

Good point. Then again, what's stopping you from thinking it's aliens or some other sci-fi apparition? Why is it some sort of ontological omnipresent agent?

Because like the empty universe feeling,

it has no central focus

just "one with all"

Very convenient cosmic blanket I guess.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

but Santa just breaks into people's houses and is never seen, and doesn't even show up to do some magic tricks. Wack.

exactly

 

[Black Rose]

Very convenient cosmic blanket I guess.

At one point in my life.

I forgave someone.

Then I saw a vision.

In a completely white void,

a womans face,

and liquid gold sunlight flowing all over her.

it is rare I see things because I have aphantasia

to me, consciousness must come from somewhere

 

[ZenRaiden]

i can honestly say i never believed in santa

I never really questioned it, but I never believed it either. I just took it to be one of those things that is said.
Then again I did believe in stupid things, as well. But to be fair to kids, grown ups believe stupid things as well.
So being kid and believing stupid thing is not imho so bad down the road, if you can figure it out over time.

 

[dr froyd]

when you believe something without proof it's usually due to some cognitive bias, or social influence, or culture, or ignorance, or because it's psychologically convenient/beneficial.

there's not much more to it than that

 

[dr froyd]

Children generally believe in a higher power before they are indoctrinated out of it.

the capacity for logical thinking doesn't develop until the age of 8 or so, so that makes sense

 

[ZenRaiden]

the capacity for logical thinking doesn't develop until the age of 8 or so, so that makes sense

Trouble with logic we aren't logical creatures alone.
You are never going to make anyone believe anything through logic.
A belief is inherently illogical.
There degrees of beliefs. Ergo its more logical to think that a boxer with 100 wins will win over a boxer with 0 wins. And its inherently different with two boxers with same stats, ergo lets say 50 50 chance.
Generally though that is probability of belief, which stems from experiences and knowledge not rational alone.

There is for instance spagetti monster church the so called pastafarians who mock belief in deity, but at the same time is shows that logic alone is really not what makes someone believe in God.

Same way I don't like women because I was born out of logic.
Love is not rational or logical either.
Many circuits in our mind got 0 traces of rational logic, and yet we use them everywhere everyday.

For example even going on forums is inherently illogical.

 

[Old Things]

For example even going on forums is inherently illogical.

I LOL'd