What's the strongest argument for atheism?

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I'd like to hear any strong arguments you might have for atheism.

 

[Black Rose]

As I see it, people 'without God' (a - theist) could be that way because they are meant to be that way.

God does not need everyone 100% of the time communicating with himself.

I'd say that it is because most people just stand by and live their lives like trees just are there neutral in the environment.

God can see that some people will be good and some will be bad without being forced to be that way. This is what God is looking for.

 

[Cognisant]

I'd like to hear any strong arguments you might have for atheism.

Islam.

 

[birdsnestfern]

The Creator is the consciousness of the universe and you don’t have to believe in a religion to be part of it. You don’t have to do or be anything special, already are. Not a separate thing. Nature and stars are god, belief isn’t necessary.
But if I had to provide an argument I’d say look at the way humans act (very ungod- like) and if we are created in his image it would probably mean we made him up. or watch the way animals angels or aliens fear man.
Or notice that biblical stories are very far fetched and don’t align with real life much.
and, its the way most people think of God is not real. It’s designed to control the masses too with fear.
I think the real god is not scarey.

Unconvinced by theist claims. But I’d add this too: humans really don’t know if there is a god, all they have is belief.
And saying we don’t know is the most honest answer we can give. Another way to put it is, if someone tells you to trust them or believe them, it’s not logical to follow that without actual direct experience.

Everything we know was first a story someone thought about, and how do you trust someone else’s word, it’s got to be of your own natural experience. Trust yourself, not someone else’s word. I think there is a God but it’s akin to your heart and consciousness.

 

[Cognisant]

I've decided I don't have a problem with God, my problems with religion all stem from the people who purport to speak on God's behalf.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

Religion is like a bio-hack. If you let it, it will take advantage of the worst parts of your mental faculties and make you irrational, in return you may get a sense of fulfillment of some kind.

So by minimizing/outsourcing your critical thinking, you may get social benefits from groups that would otherwise exclude you.

Ultamitely it's kinda moot to construct an argument, because it is the individual themselves that want to grow or broaden their perspective that change their mind anyway, regardless of whatever rhetoric there is.

 

[Black Rose]

Religion is like a bio-hack. If you let it, it will take advantage of the worst parts of your mental faculties and make you irrational, in return you may get a sense of fulfillment of some kind.

That might be when the dopamine system makes you addicted to certain rituals.

It is harder to follow a religion that bases itself on hardship and personal sacrifice.

So by minimizing/outsourcing your critical thinking, you may get social benefits from groups that would otherwise exclude you.

That is possible if you follow instead of thinking outright.

The ritual becomes doing what others say instead of finding out what we should do is make our own choices.

Ultamitely it's kinda moot to construct an argument, because it is the individual themselves that want to grow or broaden their perspective that change their mind anyway, regardless of whatever rhetoric there is.

The mind is only trapped in a cycle if a person cannot see a life outside the one they have.

But when it comes to God, is it really the same thing to think God is real as it is to have awareness of the deity?

What is going on in a person when they say: I experience God and so I believe.

 

[ZenRaiden]

I am not entirely sure?
Clearly the biggest problem is no one can see or point to god.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I am not entirely sure?
Clearly the biggest problem is no one can see or point to god.

i'd say

SIMPLY, NOT-A-THEIST​

i'd say

UNconvinced BY THEIST CLAIMS​

 

[Black Rose]

What is a theist 'claim'?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

What is a theist 'claim'?

YHWH is omnipotent omniscient and the creator of all things (OOC)

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Islam.

can you perhaps elaborate ?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

P1: It is reasonable/rational to withhold belief in an unfalsifiable entity.
P2: God is an unfalsifiable entity.
P3: Atheists withhold belief in God.
C: It is reasonable/rational to be atheist.

 

[Puffy]

The existence of a God has yet to be proven or demonstrated in a way that would satisfy an atheist. So for an atheist it's not so much they have a belief that a God doesn't exist but that there's a lack of sufficient evidence for one.

In this way, there isn't really a case that needs to be made for atheism. For an atheist it's more like the burden of proof lies with the theist to demonstrate the existence of a God. So, a better question would be: what's the strongest argument for theism?

 

[Black Rose]

The existence of a God has yet to be proven or demonstrated in a way that would satisfy an atheist. So for an atheist it's not so much they have a belief that a God doesn't exist but that there's a lack of sufficient evidence for one.

So just like, where God?

In this way, there isn't really a case that needs to be made for atheism. For an atheist it's more like the burden of proof lies with the theist to demonstrate the existence of a God. So, a better question would be: what's the strongest argument for theism?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

not to throw a monkey-wrench into things

but i'm not sure any belief is "scientific"

science is simply a method for gathering and processing and verifying data

people sometimes colloquially employ the term "scientific conclusions" but this is very misleading

even the best data can be interpreted multiple ways

conclusions are never "scientific"

only the data and the method of processing and verifying the data can be considered scientific

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

there's a lack of sufficient evidence for one

right, and then the theists jump all over themselves demanding a definition of "sufficient evidence" - rare earth - god in the gaps - junkyard tornado

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

what's the strongest argument for theism?

ETHICA ORDINE GEOMETRICO DEMONSTRATA

 

[Black Rose]

what's the strongest argument for theism?

ETHICA ORDINE GEOMETRICO DEMONSTRATA

I never read this.

Is it just materialism packaged as theism?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I never read this.

Is it just materialism packaged as theism?

it boils down to this conditional statement

(IFF) omniscient omnipotent creator of all things = exist (THEN) everything that exists = omniscient omnipotent creator of all things

 

[Black Rose]

everything that exists = omniscient omnipotent creator of all things

is also omnipresent and above time and space

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

is also omnipresent and above time and space

noTHING, NOthing can exist outside of existence (and existence = OOC)

 

[Black Rose]

is also omnipresent and above time and space

noTHING, NOthing can exist outside of existence (and existence = OOC)

what makes a thing exist vs not exist?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

what makes a thing exist vs not exist?

existence in all possible senses of the term

abstract, concrete, hypothetical, imaginary, inconceivable, unknowable, "spiritual" or even "metaphysical" or whatever the hell you want to call it

 

[EndogenousRebel]

That is possible if you follow instead of thinking outright.

I see religion as a tool just like a hammer or screwdriver. Yeah, I guess ideally it has a specific use, but there's gonna be large population that just doesn't use the tool in the correct way, and even a minority of people that are going to use the tool to bludgeon a person.

 

[Black Rose]

existence in all possible senses of the term

if I have a vacuum chamber,

can I make things exist in it without adding anything from the outside

in other words, can I materialize a shoe or apple out of nothing at all in this chamber?

the reverse would be, can I destroy anything in the chamber in the same way?

The concept that matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed makes no sense because if nothing existed previously why do things exist now as they are?

And

What makes empty space empty rather than space that is non-empty?

why is the vacuum chamber empty ontologically?

anything could be in there but is not, why?

 

[Old Things]

There are no "good" arguments for atheism. There is like one maybe two POSITIVE arguments for atheism (evolution is not one of them). Everything besides that is just saying, "Nuh uh!"

 

[Black Rose]

Everything besides that is just saying, "Nuh uh!"

I do not mean to be rude but when a person says they don't see God anywhere and you say "Nuh uh!" that is not saying anything either.

That is invalidating their personal experience.

Just like saying to the theist that they don't have a valid experience of God.

Everything comes down to personal experience. Theist and Atheist.

 

[Old Things]

Everything besides that is just saying, "Nuh uh!"

I do not mean to be rude but when a person says they don't see God anywhere and you say "Nuh uh!" that is not saying anything either.

That is invalidating their personal experience.

Just like saying to the theist that they don't have a valid experience of God.

Everything comes down to personal experience. Theist and Atheist.

Personal experience, like ideas, can be categorically wrong or inaccurate.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

I think he means like feeling. You can't say a feeling is wrong. Maybe uninformed/inappropriate, but that's subjective.

 

[Old Things]

I think he means like feeling. You can't say a feeling is wrong. Maybe uninformed/inappropriate, but that's subjective.

What is inappropriate if not wrong?

 

[Black Rose]

It is important for me to note that I have only interacted with God indirectly.

As incidents in my life where things happened like my dog being saved,

and where I had spiritual visions.

These do not prove to others they were intended by a supreme being but they do give me a pause in thinking that agencies exist.

Things exist and minds exist.

So my life has been affected by reaching out to the big guy and asking what I should do.

But since I do not have anything happening where there is a man in the sky speaking to me, but instead things happen in my environment, that is what I have to go on.

Personal experience, like ideas, can be categorically wrong or inaccurate.

If God does not personally communicate with the atheist how will you be successful in convincing them he exists?

 

[Old Things]

If God does not personally communicate with the atheist how will you be successful in convincing them he exists?

It's not going to be settled by intellect. The most "rational" position you can take is Agnosticism. That is why for people like me it takes more than just understanding God to believe in God.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

I think he means like feeling. You can't say a feeling is wrong. Maybe uninformed/inappropriate, but that's subjective.

What is inappropriate if not wrong?

I can make a judgement, say something is inappropriate. It's very different from making a judgement and saying something is wrong. Saying something is wrong implies there is a write answer. A right way to feel would a be a way that everyone should feel. I don't think there's such a thing.

 

[Old Things]

I think he means like feeling. You can't say a feeling is wrong. Maybe uninformed/inappropriate, but that's subjective.

What is inappropriate if not wrong?

I can make a judgement, say something is inappropriate. It's very different from making a judgement and saying something is wrong. Saying something is wrong implies there is a write answer. A right way to feel would a be a way that everyone should feel. I don't think there's such a thing.

In context, all it would mean is feeling right emotions at the right time.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

I think he means like feeling. You can't say a feeling is wrong. Maybe uninformed/inappropriate, but that's subjective.

What is inappropriate if not wrong?

I can make a judgement, say something is inappropriate. It's very different from making a judgement and saying something is wrong. Saying something is wrong implies there is a write answer. A right way to feel would a be a way that everyone should feel. I don't think there's such a thing.

In context, all it would mean is feeling right emotions at the right time.

I would say that would be in reference to goals right? Not everyone has the same goals. This is relativistic hellscape we're walking here.

 

[Old Things]

I think he means like feeling. You can't say a feeling is wrong. Maybe uninformed/inappropriate, but that's subjective.

What is inappropriate if not wrong?

I can make a judgement, say something is inappropriate. It's very different from making a judgement and saying something is wrong. Saying something is wrong implies there is a write answer. A right way to feel would a be a way that everyone should feel. I don't think there's such a thing.

In context, all it would mean is feeling right emotions at the right time.

I would say that would be in reference to goals right? Not everyone has the same goals. This is relativistic hellscape we're walking here.

Has nothing to do with goals. Emotions are things we feel in response to something that happens (usually).

 

[Black Rose]

communication in any form is an experience because minds have consciousness

so if anyone is not in communication with God then it is not about ideas but about direct connection to that being not being there.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

I think he means like feeling. You can't say a feeling is wrong. Maybe uninformed/inappropriate, but that's subjective.

What is inappropriate if not wrong?

I can make a judgement, say something is inappropriate. It's very different from making a judgement and saying something is wrong. Saying something is wrong implies there is a write answer. A right way to feel would a be a way that everyone should feel. I don't think there's such a thing.

In context, all it would mean is feeling right emotions at the right time.

I would say that would be in reference to goals right? Not everyone has the same goals. This is relativistic hellscape we're walking here.

Has nothing to do with goals. Emotions are things we feel in response to something that happens (usually).

If your goal is to be super productive in a given day, but you feel tired and reluctant to do things, then I would understand how you can say a feeling is right or wrong for example. Otherwise I don't think it's appropriate.

 

[Old Things]

communication in any form is an experience because minds have consciousness

so if anyone is not in communication with God then it is not about ideas but about direct connection to that being not being there.

Yes, I agree. The only problem with this is that there is plenty of evidence for God if one goes looking for it.

 

[Old Things]

If your goal is to be super productive in a given day, but you feel tired and reluctant to do things, then I would understand how you can say a feeling is right or wrong for example. Otherwise I don't think it's appropriate.

That's literally every single emotion. Because emotions dictate behavior which is either right or wrong. For example, if someone clears their throat while giving a eulogy and a person laughs at them, is laughing at that appropriate? If it is not, then it is wrong. But that's a real stretch to say that would be a goal-oriented thing.

 

[Black Rose]

Can people see the evidence for God?

I think that depends on what happens in a person's life.

We cannot all see things the same way.

No one believes what I say, and it is shocking to see what they think when I tell them.

 

[Old Things]

Can people see the evidence for God?

I think that depends on what happens in a person's life.

We cannot all see things the same way.

No one believes what I say, and it is shocking to see what they think when I tell them.

Some people actively repress evidence. That is why I said there is evidence for God if you go looking for it. If a person has no interest in God then they are not going to go looking for evidence for God. But at the same time, they have chosen not to be interested in God. Perhaps they had a horrible upbringing, or their professor in college convinced them science and religion are incompatible, or they like spirituality but not God. There are many reasons why people do not believe in God but hardly any of them are based on the actual evidence for God.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

If your goal is to be super productive in a given day, but you feel tired and reluctant to do things, then I would understand how you can say a feeling is right or wrong for example. Otherwise I don't think it's appropriate.

That's literally every single emotion. Because emotions dictate behavior which is either right or wrong. For example, if someone clears their throat while giving a eulogy and a person laughs at them, is laughing at that appropriate? If it is not, then it is wrong. But that's a real stretch to say that would be a goal-oriented thing.

I might appreciate such a laugh for breaking the tension. People prefer that we laugh at certain times, and we don't laugh at others. Such as a eulogy. This is the way I see it, unless I am wrong.

I suppose you can say that if something socially pathological, it is obviously wrong, but on the other side of that is that we let social preassures tell us things are wrong simply because people feel it is.

A regular person for example, for complicated reason such as brain shape, might make pleasurable feelings from other people's suffering. I would say sadist feel the wrong things, but that's because there is something wrong with them.

To say someone is feeling the wrong things is basically saying there's something wrong with them I guess is what I am getting at. When saying that someone is feeling something inappropriate is merely acknowledging that they may be having a moment.

 

[Black Rose]

feeling happy or angry or sad or afraid

not really wrong feelings

but not the same as being connected to God by experience?

 

[Old Things]

To say someone is feeling the wrong things is basically saying there's something wrong with them I guess is what I am getting at.

Yes, and I would say there is something wrong with everyone.

 

[Black Rose]

I experienced things happening in the environment I relate to God trying to tell me something.

 

[Old Things]

feeling happy or angry or sad or afraid

not really wrong feelings

but not the same as being connected to God by experience?

The point is that there is an ideal way to feel. It is just dependent on circumstance. In heaven, all we will feel is joy, for example.

 

[Old Things]

I experienced things happening in the environment I relate to God trying to tell me something.

I have no problem with that whatsoever. God communicates to us in all sorts of ways. But that is a kind of evidence for God. It is not the be-all-end-all to end the conversation about whether God exists or not.

 

[Black Rose]

I experienced things happening in the environment I relate to God trying to tell me something.

I have no problem with that whatsoever. God communicates to us in all sorts of ways. But that is a kind of evidence for God. It is not the be-all-end-all to end the conversation about whether God exists or not.

you said though experience was about ideas being correct or incorrect.

to me, I experience lots of things like the five senses or love

so what makes an experience of God just an idea and not real?