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What TiNe/INTP Really Looks Like!

loveofreason

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Very challenging questions! >>

i started making a reply but then i confused myself and scrapped it...
& nyoo, cant make me bring it back this time! ;p

I dislike being taken too deeply into these theoretical loops.
If I tried harder I could try to find the right semantics
to describe the fine difference between Ne and Ni which
apply to every particular person, maybe come very close,
but such endeavors ultimately end in failure...

There isn't any way to use language alone to create a fully
consistent divide between what is and isn't Ne and Ni
especially considering they're, by nature, abstract..

And thus defining them in language necessitates using
abstract words which are highly subject to interpretation;
anecdotally understood in millions of different ways.

Still..
I know Ni exists. I know Ne exists. I know what they look like.
I can't describe them as well as I can show them.

It is better I stop investing energies in grammatical disputes,
which many typlogists are still trapped in, and instead work
toward providing a better platform to refine things in. I should
get to work on the other vids, rather than posting here. >.>

Basically "Abstract thing is abstract. Can't explain (with abstract instrument). Fluff accuracy of written expression, I got vids (to make)."

:pueh:

:beatyoukitty:

And thus was Ne shewn unto His people, with little Si by his side, and They were well greased, so received but momentarily, leaving the people bewildered as to the message and nature of His true Glory, but wiping their hands upon the loin cloth of faith and making utterances, rudely, unawares of their annointing with the oils of Ne-dom, and made witless party each one, to the mysteries momentous of the Ne.

:smiley_emoticons_mr

But really... one day you'll give answers :beatyou:
 

redbaron

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So here I was enjoying a refreshing glass of water when I stumble across LOR's post and snort it everywhere while trying to contain my laughter.

:(
 

snafupants

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Russell definitely, Ellen sensor all the way.

I can see that case. Then again, here is what Jung said about Ne (and Se).

Because intuition is orientated by the object, a decided dependence upon external situations is discernible, but it has an altogether different character from the dependence of the sensational type.

I might watch a video of Ellen later to judge things. Are you saying ESFP then?

Hm, Ellen does seem to act "zany" and "crazy" in an ENFP way, though.

What are your arguments for ESFP or sensing?
 

viche

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I'm not saying you are wrong, but what would be the reason Jung calimed to be Ti-dominant his entire life if he wasn't?
Jung didn't say that he is Ti-dominant type in MBTI. MBTI wasn't even around back in his time.

This is his exact words from a recorded interview: "… but I most certainly was characterized by thinking - I always thought - from early childhood; and I had a great deal of intuition too and I had definite difficulty with feeling and my relation to reality was not particularly brilliant…"

Jung says that he was "characterized by thinking" and then follows it up with a phrase "I always thought". The word "thinking" here he is using in its common interpretation -- thinking as having thoughts, engaging in contemplation and introspection. This is not same as MBTI's Ti.

Majority of people interpret this passage as Jung typing himself as Ti-dominant, when he merely indicated that he has spent a lot of time on mental ruminations and contemplation. This would be true of any introverted type. INTJs spend a lot of time on thinking. INFJs engage in a lot of contemplation. So do ISTJs and INFPs. Thus, the only thing that can be derived from this passage is that Jung was an introvert.

People who say that Jung has typed himself as Ti-dominant are basically jumping to conclusions without carefully inspecting what he has actually said.
 

Ink

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I remember thinking Se-Ti for Chappelle after watching him... What makes you think he's INTP? His thinking strikes me as very superficial (yes, vague term, I know)
 

scorpiomover

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I remember thinking Se-Ti for Chappelle after watching him... What makes you think he's INTP? His thinking strikes me as very superficial (yes, vague term, I know)
After Chapelle did his disappearing act, he said that the way things are in the media acting industry, it's all an extremely clever and subtle system of control, and he was trying to break free from that. Doesn't seem that superficial to me.
 

Chad

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@Auburn
Its been brought to may attentions that I may be more NeTi instead of TiNe basically ENTP, instead of INTP. I have concluded that I match many of the stereotypes of both INTP and ENTP Maybe the TI/NE is difference is very close Making me a borderline INTP/ENTP.

Basically I am requesting that you make bring some videos about typing NeTI as this is very close to TiNe and I would like to see the difference.

Also I am requesting that some of you Type experts to come and try to type me.
http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=15783

Thanks for the input. I form previous conversations and limited input I would place myself as borderline ENTP/INTP please feel free to correct me if you believe I am wrong.
 

PhoenixRising

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@PhoenixRising

Awesome. I look forward to that. And, seeing as I brought it up, what is the Ne Self-parody?
*Meant to reply to you about this sooner >.<*

The Ne self-parody is a phenomenon where an individual will act out different scenarios in their mind, playing out what could happen in a given situation or seeing it from different perspectives. This results in the interjection of a sort of mocking comment, or parody, into their line of thought. In conversation, these sort of interjections come out as little "skits". These skits often appear as kind of random diversions from the original topic to make a witty or sarcastic remark about the topic from another point of view.
 

PhoenixRising

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Basically "Abstract thing is abstract. Can't explain (with abstract instrument). Fluff accuracy of written expression, I got vids (to make)."

:pueh:

:beatyoukitty:

And thus was Ne shewn unto His people, with little Si by his side, and They were well greased, so received but momentarily, leaving the people bewildered as to the message and nature of His true Glory, but wiping their hands upon the loin cloth of faith and making utterances, rudely, unawares of their annointing with the oils of Ne-dom, and made witless party each one, to the mysteries momentous of the Ne.

:smiley_emoticons_mr

But really... one day you'll give answers :beatyou:
b-but.. if one cannot succinctly describe something in words, isn't it better not to attempt to describe it, therefore risking misunderstanding by one's audience? >.>

Let's see if I can give a very general synopsis of Ne vs Ni.. The difference between Ne/Si and Se/Ni can be subtle, but it is there. The thought processes are very different between them; while Ne takes information directly from the environment and compares it with the memories stored by Si, Ni has kind of a preconceived framework that takes information gathered by Se, compares it, and expands the framework based on the new findings. Where as Ne can be seemingly spontaneous in its idea generation, Ni would tend to take preconceived notions and extrapolate from what it already knows. Therefore, Ni performs the same task as Si, maintaining one's worldview/preconceived notions. Ne and Se are also similar in that they are both perception functions, they handle the mental interpretation of sensory input.

From what I know, the perceptive experience of Ne/Si and Se/Ni users is pretty different. While Ne tends to perceive the world in an abstract sense, that is, with a dreamlike impression of things, Se experiences it in a very concrete way.

Here is a good example of the difference between the two types: I'm TiNe, my coworker is TiSe. His work is a lot cleaner and done a lot faster than mine. A lot of this is due to the fact that my Ne prompts me to change directions in my workflow several times throughout a project. My coworker has a well defined directional workflow that he always follows. His Ni framework has parameters for each situation built into it, and if something needs to be adapted to, he takes what he already knows and extrapolates it until his ideology covers the situation at hand. If I am faced with a new kind of situation, my Ne generates a scattering of all kinds of ideas, and then my Ti has to sort through them to figure out which ones are relevant.

I hope this kind of helps answer your questions..
 

scorpiomover

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b-but.. if one cannot succinctly describe something in words, isn't it better not to attempt to describe it, therefore risking misunderstanding by one's audience? >.>
When it helps, yes. However, if one is building one's ideas on certain concepts that one can't even put into words, one is trying to build a theory on something one may not even realise doesn't always apply.

Let's see if I can give a very general synopsis of Ne vs Ni.. The difference between Ne/Si and Se/Ni can be subtle, but it is there. The thought processes are very different between them; while Ne takes information directly from the environment and compares it with the memories stored by Si,
Most times I've seen people refer to Ne, it's as "brainstorming".

Ni has kind of a preconceived framework that takes information gathered by Se, compares it, and expands the framework based on the new findings. Where as Ne can be seemingly spontaneous in its idea generation, Ni would tend to take preconceived notions and extrapolate from what it already knows. Therefore, Ni performs the same task as Si, maintaining one's worldview/preconceived notions.
Kind of. Ni-doms tend to say that they CONSTRUCT worldviews, and often. Doing all that work all over again takes a lot of time. So often, it's built on some previously constructed worldviews.

Ne and Se are also similar in that they are both perception functions, they handle the mental interpretation of sensory input.
Ni & Si are also perception functions.

From what I know, the perceptive experience of Ne/Si and Se/Ni users is pretty different. While Ne tends to perceive the world in an abstract sense, that is, with a dreamlike impression of things, Se experiences it in a very concrete way.
True. But if you notice carefully, Se-users, which is SPs, tend to be good at ball games. Ball games require constant error corrections to one's initial estimate, focussing in narrower and narrower on one's target. Usually, SPs seem to be unaware that they are doing this. This kind of constant adjustment, is reminiscent of how Ni-doms tend to describe how they achieve a goal. However, SPs seem to be oblivious to it, while Ni-doms seem to know that it happens.

Here is a good example of the difference between the two types: I'm TiNe, my coworker is TiSe. His work is a lot cleaner and done a lot faster than mine. A lot of this is due to the fact that my Ne prompts me to change directions in my workflow several times throughout a project. My coworker has a well defined directional workflow that he always follows. His Ni framework has parameters for each situation built into it, and if something needs to be adapted to, he takes what he already knows and extrapolates it until his ideology covers the situation at hand. If I am faced with a new kind of situation, my Ne generates a scattering of all kinds of ideas, and then my Ti has to sort through them to figure out which ones are relevant.
I'm TiNe. A friend is TiSe. My house is a lot cleaner than his. When it comes to dealing with things, he tends to deal with things he knows, by sticking to what he knows. Overall, when he bothers, he gets things done on time. I usually get so lost in the possibilities, that I take much longer to do things. But when it comes to something he doesn't know, he balks, while I tend to dive in, and give it a go anyway.
 

loveofreason

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Brontosaurie

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you guys have some reason for spelling out "Si-Te" instead of ISTJ, etc? formal differentiation to compensate for lack of substance, per chance?
 

Auburn

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Because this isn't an MBTI-based hypothesis, thus has nothing to do with those four letters. The hypothesis takes a different approach to interpreting Jung's work - just as Socionics is a different interpretation - and in fact it more closely resembles socionics than mbti.

More here: http://cognitivetype.com/comparison.html :)
 

Brontosaurie

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Because this isn't an MBTI-based hypothesis, thus has nothing to do with those four letters. The hypothesis takes a different approach to interpreting Jung's work - just as Socionics is a different interpretation - and in fact it more closely resembles socionics than mbti.

More here: http://cognitivetype.com/comparison.html :)

yeah but Si-Te, like ISTJ, means Si-Te-Fi-Ne. am i wrong?
 

Duxwing

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yeah but Si-Te, like ISTJ, means Si-Te-Fi-Ne. am i wrong?

You're right, Si-Te = ISTJ, but Auburn's project focuses on identifying individual functions. And as the functions, so the type.

-Duxwing
 

Auburn

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yeah but Si-Te, like ISTJ, means Si-Te-Fi-Ne. am i wrong?
Yes and no. It depends on who you talk to in Typology communities.

Ramble Warning =
For example, a member by the name of Reckful on INTJforum firmly believes that the 4 letter dichotomies are where the reality of the phenomenon lies and that the functions are just extrapolated relations from that. (i.e. NJs have traits in common, which people can "Ni")

Others, as you know, think of ISTJ as synonymous with Si-Te-Fi-Ne which is how I view it. But the reality is that it is a mixing of two rather unrelated systems. The MBTI code was designed as a behavioral categorization system, not a cognitive theory.

Cognitively speaking, it is erroneous to make a divide such as "T" and "F" in which one is either T or F, when both are present in the psyche. And that may appear to be reconciled by some by saying that the MBTI isn't saying we don't have both, but that we have a predominance/preference for one - but there is an error in this also.

The way MBTI measures the predominance/preference (i.e. which letter of the two is in your code) is via the outer expressiveness and lifestyle you live. In MBTI it is not possible to be an F type that prefers to use their T function, because by definition MBTI defines your letter via your preference of use.

So if a person with the psychology of Ni-Fe-Ti-Se preferred their tertiary Ti process and disliked and shunned their own secondary Fe process, they would, in MBTI terms, have a "T" preference and always test out that way.

The sixteen types don't always (in fact only barely do more than not) follow the supposed pattern of behavior MBTI ascribes to them. This is because the MBTI profiles and definitions of the types is based on the assumption that that will have a preference and greater affinity and reliance for the processes most readily accessible to their psyche. This simply isn't so because for millions of circumstances, people end up relying more or less on various of the processes in their hierarchy -- even at different parts of their life.

Furthermore due to the very nature of the function-pairings, such as Ti-Fe and Te-Fi, the extroverted processes will in many cases be the most prevailing and visible within the pair, regardless of their hierarchical position.

As I mentioned, some know better and understand this, and don't really mean that a person has a 'preference' for "F" if they're INFJ, but continuing to call the configuration of Ni-Fe-Ti-Se as "INFJ" is perpetuating that misunderstanding and confusing newcomers to the theory. It is a lot more logical and efficient to not address the types via the four letter code if that really isn't what you are saying when using the term.

The people that know better, really aren't using the MBTI anymore. They're actually using Jungian theory, but still calling the types via behavior-based terms, in large part because Jungian theory hasn't had a popular & independent embodiment for decades.

But as I mentioned in the article, it is inefficient to first introduce people to a system already well understood to be flawed, only to then have them re-learn the proper system that sits behind it through prolonged exposure. It would be most efficient to learn the theory properly from the beginning, skipping the process of attaining and removing misconceptions of MBTI/Keirsey.
 
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