What philosophical value is there to dreams? Are dreams meant to be foolish?

[Hourglass]

perhaps dreams are foolish to begin with.

Perhaps dreams are meant to be foolish.

What is foolishness?

Are the any dreams that are not foolish?

 

[EndogenousRebel]

I've had dreams that are movies where I'm no where to be found. Dreams that have me in some past setting, like in school. Dreams where it feels like something is communicating with me. I've had dreams where I woke up several times until waking up for real. Those are weird.

I had one dream where I left my sleeping body and floated into the rest of my house, and a very deep voice tells me to go back. I ablidged because that was creepy.

I don't think they offer much insight. I'm pretty agnostic about them.

We can draw meaning from them, but that's more of a rorschach test if you ask me. They can inspire some tripy art I guess.

 

[Hourglass]

Some art has value…

What about dreams in the aspirational sense?

i.e. “I dream to be an olympic [sport] player”

“I dream that I will one day be a professor”

“I dream for world peace”

“I dream for a boat filled with Boston cream donuts”

 

[Black Rose]

I do not have a dream.

Maybe get a girlfriend.

 

[Hourglass]

Dreams where it feels like something is communicating with me. I've had dreams where I woke up several times until waking up for real. Those are weird.

Makes me think of Inception.

 

[Hourglass]

I do not have a dream.

I don’t think I have a dream either. I either don’t have a dream or I have too many dreams.

I think I used to have just one or two.

I have a few people in my family who still have “dreams”.

One is much older, decades older, and tells younger members they should be taking more risk. This person has a dream for the younger people in the family.

Another person in my family is younger and takes more risk - they are following their dream.

 

[Hourglass]

rorschach test

Why are roschach tests administered?

 

[Hourglass]

rorschach test

Why are roschach tests administered?

I just looked this up.

From what I gather, the rorschach test has generally been “refuted” because it has the untented intention of instigating the sentiment of conflict.

However in the past it was a mode of categorical analysis to find people with Schizophrenia.

Inkblots had “answers” based on “statistical popularity”

Anyone who found a matching inkblot to be different was classified as “statistically original”

This suggests many people with “original” thinking were misdiagnosed with Schizophrenia. How terrible.

 

[Hourglass]

rorschach test

Why are roschach tests administered?

I just looked this up.

From what I gather, the rorschach test has generally been “refuted” because it has the untented intention of instigating the sentiment of conflict.

However in the past it was a mode of categorical analysis to find people with Schizophrenia.

Inkblots had “answers” based on “statistical popularity”

Anyone who found a matching inkblot to be different was classified as “statistically original”

This suggests many people with “original” thinking were misdiagnosed with Schizophrenia. How terrible.

“Statistical popularity”
“Versus”
“Statistical originality”

This seems highly inconsiderate of combinatorial thinking - i.e. you might see both but are only allowed to answer one.

Or you see the statistically original thing first but it doesn’t mean that you’re incapable of seeing the statistically popular thing.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

Oh. Well according to Victor Frankl, someone aspiring to be greater than they are, is how they achieve their maximum greatness.

"Aim high" so that if you miss you'll land somewhere greater. So if you aspire for average, you'll be below average.


Maybe it kinda points at the standard one has for themselves. I'm not sure it pans out well philosohpically either. I would say that people would be very disappointed to not meet what they aspire to be, and make them depressed if they end up living a mediocre life. Though I guess thinking that your lofty dreams helped you achieve something would make you feel better.

 

[Hourglass]

The rorschach test was a foolish dream pursued. It didn’t seem to gain popularity when the idea was put out into the world. It was determined to be dry.

It was more of an experiment.

experimentation does not result in success by default. Was it a failure?

Was what we learned from the rorschach test sufficient enough to contribute to future progressions of research experimentation methods?

Did it become something else entirely?

Or was it rejected for a long time?

 

[Hourglass]

Maybe it kinda points at the standard one has for themselves. I'm not sure it pans out well philosohpically either. I would say that people would be very disappointed to not meet what they aspire to be, and make them depressed if they end up living a mediocre life. Though I guess thinking that your lofty dreams helped you achieve something would make you feel better.

Interesting and a very valid point (not that I’m needed for validation, just what I think) - I sense perhaps the cognition can be re-arranged to be something like:

1. Having my dream of ___ helps me achieve something close to ___ and that makes me feel better than before; accomplishment.

2. If I don’t achieve ____ I might feel disappointed, and that disappointment can build up and lead to a feeling of mediocrity and actual self-identification with mediocrity.

3. While I have the dream of ___, if it is not achieved, that is completely fine as it is not expected given the dream acts as a flight mechanism.

I seems difficult to not feel moved by the individualistic nature Frankl spells out. Yet somehow, while the conception feels as if it makes sense, I’m compelled to think it is moreso a capsule of thinking to be used sometimes yet not all the time… because compounded disappointment can create unintended self-degradation. And this seems to be happening for many people.

What if the dream a person had or has was too high? This is clearly possible and there is evidence in the news when someone’s “dream” went too far.

What if the dream a person had or has wasn’t “high” enough in the first place? I don’t think this defaults to mediocrity but movement could be paced differently.

I’m thinking about what it means to “aim high”.

It feels floaty for me.

I do get the gist of it though.

 

[Black Rose]

I think having a dream is more about introverted intuition (Ni) than anything else.

Because (Ni) is about seeing the trajectory you want to go.

 

[Hourglass]

I think having a dream is more about introverted intuition (Ni) than anything else.

Because (Ni) is about seeing the trajectory you want to go.

What about Ne Ti dreams?

 

[Black Rose]

I think having a dream is more about introverted intuition (Ni) than anything else.

Because (Ni) is about seeing the trajectory you want to go.

What about Ne Ti dreams?

perfect mental systems knowledge

 

[onesteptwostep]

I've been taught that dreams happen beacuse of stress, and usually nightmares happen because you slept in a very hot enviornment. So dreams seem to be more tied in with how you sleep and how much stress you have, not that they have predictive qualities.

 

[Hourglass]

I've been taught that dreams happen beacuse of stress, and usually nightmares happen because you slept in a very hot enviornment.

additionally, a very cold environment I imagine would affect sleep quality. Anything that interferes with homeostasis.

One can be susceptible to being hotter or colder.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Brain is data.
That data means nothing without dynamic.
That data becomes structured with dynamic.
Kids love Pokemon, not because its interesting, but because it provides structure.
We humans love structures.
INTJs use Te to externalize structure onto the world around them. Structure upon structure upon structure like in a melody of a RPG level up game, constantly improving, being perfectionist.
Having an dream for INTJ is something like going to hadj to mekka.
You just have to do it once in a life time its religion.
INTPs don't need goals at all. They need internal structure.
INTPs can aimlessly diddle with frameworks in their minds, at the expense of any external realities.
ISTPS externalize logical structures Ti onto the immediate sensory world.
INTPs internalize structures into frameworks.
INTJs use Ni to glue together as many structures and then super impose them on their life trajectory, like a ballistic expert figuring out the trajectory of a projectile.

Structure is what gives our brains sense of data it contains.
For people with J preference that means the data has to happen a certain way in congruence with external reality.
P people do the same, but when shit goes wrong, we just adapt and change the rules of structure or reality around.
For INFP and INTP we are inward focused. For us external achievements are not important. For us internal harmony comes first, and externalizing it is something secondary.
INTJ idealist and INFP idealist are two sides to the same coin, the difference is that INTJ ideal is perfection and performance.
For INFP the ideal is internal first, and externalities only match what is inside.
Ni is idealistic, but if you tell a Ni dom that they are idealist they will cut you with a knife in rage of fury.
They don't like the word ideal. Instead every INTJ ever uses the word perfection.
Same thing as INFP ideal, but INFP ideals are really unrealistic most of the time.
They are like dreamy vectors.
For INTJ dream is tangible realistic thing. Something not to be just dreamt, but made real, come hell and end of the world, or satan himself they will reach that ideal state of perfection or die trying.
And INTJs will do it with absolute confidence and bravado and style of a megalomaniac.
INTPs are horrible to INTJ mind, we can just string endless streams of data into endless structures of frameworks internally, and we won't even tell you.
All you see is this....

People hate us.

 

[dr froyd]

as someone who subscribes to the existentialist point of view, having a vision for oneself is not just important but is the entire basis for one's existence

i don't really judge dreams, no matter how foolish they are. The only mistake is to not have any, to just wander aimlessly or constantly take the path of least resistance – to me that's a pointless life.

 

[birdsnestfern]

Dreams are of different types. Some just help you get rid of daily grind, not important, except to let it go.
Some vivid dreams are meant for you to remember and they have messages from your subconcious in them.
If there is an authority figure, you can bet there are two other figures too. One is your higher self, another is your child and adult or parent. There are always three and you should listen carefully to the feeling its giving you and perhaps stay alert in the next few days about how NOT to disobey something your higher self wants you to follow. (Police, Father, etc will be your higher self). There are psychic dreams too where pretty much something happens exactly as it did in the dream. THese are guide posts telling you you are on a synchronistic path. Go in that direction. Fu dogs out my back door beconned me to follow. In real life, someone psychic lived right behind that area where the Fu dogs led me. I recognized where it was because a bank was across the street. This helped me meet someone I was destined to meet (stanford student who taught me about lucid dreaming). Anyway, dreams are your higher self and its telling you to listen and it guides you.

Fear, chasing dreams are parts of yourself that are in the shadow. The way to overcome them is, stop and turn around and either start chasing the thing you are running from, or Hug it with all your love. Waves and water are emotion. Sometimes something emotional will happen after you dream of water. I have dream symbolism books that I use to look up meanings a lot.

If something is on your left in the dream, its past events that just happened. If its on the right, its a future event to take a message from. If its straight on, its whats happening right now.

Pay attention to how the dream makes you feel. If you get stuck in an elevator, try to pinch yourself to wake up out of it. If you become aware that its a dream, try to control what happens next. If its a flying dream, pay attention to the exhileration it gives you, and then USE that same exhileration in your waking life to tackle something. Its teaching you to fly confidently (the feeling of the dream), use that feeling in something in your actual life.

 

[Black Rose]

A mirror is in an art studio and a chair is in front of it, I sit on the chair.

The mirror reflects all the squares hanging from the ceiling into a single image.

That image was a tree to the right and a brook to the left in a grass field.

This was 6 days before I discovered the meaning of life: March 19, 2019.

 

[birdsnestfern]

It means whatever you think it means. I kind of think it means almost like a kaleidoscope of mirror facets reflecting parts of you, your artful side that you need to nurture?

Although here are a few ideas:

A chair depicts your seat, your place, your rights, your position, could indicate a need for more rest or sitting too much. If the chair is straight backed, need for strong discipline or ownership.

Mirror: Self reflection, a need to reflect upon yourself, who you are, what you are thinking and doing, how you see yourself, taking a good look at yourself, or may say 'know thyself' or to thine own self be true.

Tree: Often represent the tree of knowledge, fruits of your labors, or absence of them. Notice if the tree is healthy and growing in a balanced way, it can depict your spiritual life and its state. Or your belief system, vitality or health or a pun on the family tree and its ties.

Stream: The condition of your emotions, ability to flow with lifes events, live in peace and harmony with yourself and rest of the world. Can reveal your spiritual path, the flow of spiritual truth, source life energies. Constant supply of needs. Personal lifestream, source, energy flow or emotions.

 

[ZenRaiden]

as someone who subscribes to the existentialist point of view, having a vision for oneself is not just important but is the entire basis for one's existence

I agree. We are in a sandbox game. Life is play.
We are told this is not the case, from adults and authorities.
In reality those authorities are just playing their own version of a game.

 

[dr froyd]

as someone who subscribes to the existentialist point of view, having a vision for oneself is not just important but is the entire basis for one's existence

I agree. We are in a sandbox game. Life is play.
We are told this is not the case, from adults and authorities.
In reality those authorities are just playing their own version of a game.

exactly, amigo

 

[Black Rose]

If you had a dream about having sex what does that mean?

She looked like no one I ever saw before.

 

[ZenRaiden]

If you had a dream about having sex what does that mean?

She looked like no one I ever saw before.

Generally it might mean a lot of things, but in very general terms, ergo what it means for most people is a positive emotion ergo libidinal energy experienced.
Its context based, as how you experience this in context of life is specific to you, but dreams also signify change of emotions.

Our mind like body is in constant fight for homeostasis.
Ergo dreams are there to regain homeostasis.
Unfortunately your attachment energy is not with real person.
So in this context Id assume the dream is more of the mind shifting its attachment energy into balance back, if it were a real person in your life that might signify a positive thing. If there is not context for the dream your body is simply balancing its self out to whatever situation you are in now.

IF you guide your daily activities towards goals your dreams will have substance ergo they will have context, and hence they will mean something.
In absence of context their meaning is equilibrium.

 

[Hourglass]

as someone who subscribes to the existentialist point of view, having a vision for oneself is not just important but is the entire basis for one's existence

i don't really judge dreams, no matter how foolish they are. The only mistake is to not have any, to just wander aimlessly or constantly take the path of least resistance – to me that's a pointless life.

I like this sentiment after reading for I think the third time or so. I resist existentialism to the extent that it becomes wasteful optimism rather than realistic optimism. Determinism defies too much of existentialism yet it gives you a considerable answer so you don’t blame yourself into depression for the things out of your control.

The problem with society today is we are so addicted to novelty and novelty is not the same as invention. This is where I find resistance when it comes to me thinking about any major dreams.

Today I scrolled through a page of things I could not justify purchasing but could easily see someone else purchasing.

In the U.S. insurmountable consumerism is the only religion we don’t disagree on.

I still have pictures of those things I wished I could buy burned into my mind though I don’t have the means for them. It is just flashy colors and “style” in different forms and everything feels so boring and similar, yet I still was “sucked in”. It was just an addictive waste of mental energy.

 

[Hourglass]

If I were to resist this notion that I found pointless in consumerism, I don’t know what would happen.

I think what it was, was reaching a toxicity point in addiction. Online window shopping felt good in the moment and then afterwards it didn’t feel better. I just felt tired.

Perhaps my dreams are meant to be somewhere away from this feeling of toxicity. Materialism is scary. But is it necessary?

 

[ZenRaiden]

If I were to resist this notion that I found pointless in consumerism, I don’t know what would happen.

I think what it was, was reaching a toxicity point in addiction. Online window shopping felt good in the moment and then afterwards it didn’t feel better. I just felt tired.

Perhaps my dreams are meant to be somewhere away from this feeling of toxicity. Materialism is scary. But is it necessary?

Consumerism is indeed emotional not rational.
IF your basic emotional needs are met you will not be an consumer.

This is typical consumer who had parents that did not pay attention to their needs, and a consumer who needs sex and love.

This is someone who was not loved by parents for who they really were.

This is someone who was told that the world is dangerous place, so they overeat and play games.

 

[sushi]

my opinion of dreams is that they are closest thing to the multiverse and choices you make, they are the possibility and imagination your mind can generate from the data set and past experience that your brain has.

the multiverse describe the possible evolution of your life and the universe in the future, and dreams kind of reflect it.

i play tennis one day, and then i go to sleep, or imagine that i can play better by moving faster or hitting the ball harder in a possible future. it is simple as this.

 

[Hourglass]

IF your basic emotional needs are met you will not be an consumer.

So… if this is an absolute truth, then it seems like the world has a lot of individuals with unmet basic emotional needs…

 

[Hourglass]

@ZenRaiden
Wait, but who -isn’t- a consumer?

 

[ZenRaiden]

So… if this is an absolute truth, then it seems like the world has a lot of individuals with unmet basic emotional needs…

Yes. Pretty much most people. Hence why society sucks at this game of life this century.

@ZenRaiden
Wait, but who -isn’t- a consumer?

I was mainly talking about what you call pathological consumerism, where people consume to fill in for unmet emotional needs.
If you buy stuff for its original purpose rather than fill emotional needs then you are not one.
Or if you indulge in frivolous consumerism sometimes for fun, vs all the time.

 

[Hourglass]

So… if this is an absolute truth, then it seems like the world has a lot of individuals with unmet basic emotional needs…

Yes. Pretty much most people. Hence why society sucks at this game of life this century.

@ZenRaiden
Wait, but who -isn’t- a consumer?

I was mainly talking about what you call pathological consumerism, where people consume to fill in for unmet emotional needs.
If you buy stuff for its original purpose rather than fill emotional needs then you are not one.
Or if you indulge in frivolous consumerism sometimes for fun, vs all the time.

And, even after the basic needs are met, there is still a longing for more…

 

[ZenRaiden]

And, even after the basic needs are met, there is still a longing for more…

Not really.
X material needs
y emotional needs
when people confuse y with x there is longing for more.
Unless you got the two confused which happens all the time, you won't long for more.
The trouble is "needs" emotional are not always in our control.
Ergo they are in control of others who are there to meet them.
When you are older you can cut people off who don't meet those needs. You can meet some needs yourself.
But needs are still the same.
So x needs never get fulfilled with y needs, and y needs never get fulfilled with x needs.

 

[dr froyd]

as someone who subscribes to the existentialist point of view, having a vision for oneself is not just important but is the entire basis for one's existence

i don't really judge dreams, no matter how foolish they are. The only mistake is to not have any, to just wander aimlessly or constantly take the path of least resistance – to me that's a pointless life.

I like this sentiment after reading for I think the third time or so. I resist existentialism to the extent that it becomes wasteful optimism rather than realistic optimism. Determinism defies too much of existentialism yet it gives you a considerable answer so you don’t blame yourself into depression for the things out of your control.

The problem with society today is we are so addicted to novelty and novelty is not the same as invention. This is where I find resistance when it comes to me thinking about any major dreams.

Today I scrolled through a page of things I could not justify purchasing but could easily see someone else purchasing.

In the U.S. insurmountable consumerism is the only religion we don’t disagree on.

I still have pictures of those things I wished I could buy burned into my mind though I don’t have the means for them. It is just flashy colors and “style” in different forms and everything feels so boring and similar, yet I still was “sucked in”. It was just an addictive waste of mental energy.

right, people like heidegger thought about determinism in terms of "facticity" - the facts of one's life we simply cannot change. We're born into a certain time and place, with a certain body, etc etc. The idea of existentiality in that framework is to live aligned with one's possibilities within the realm defined by our circumstances.

consumerism can be said to be one of those things that pull us away from our potential and deeper destiny; consumerism is when the "they" – the social environment around us – decide how we spend our time and energy on earth. Heidegger called this "fallenness".