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What is your theory of type anyway?

Miss spelt

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I do wish you were 10 years older...would make conversation so much more pleasant.

Eh I'll take my chances.
If you were 10 years younger you might not need the same explanation twice over.

But let's not just criticize each other.

Can you write a short paragraph that explains why you think introverted thinking is so consistent with INTP?
 

reckful

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Don't understand why INTP would not be Ti-Ni-Se-Fe in this theory of yours....:confused:

Again, as I stressed at the end of my first post, it's not my theory. I think the cognitive functions themselves are a category mistake, so I'm not a subscriber to any function stack. I'm just describing what Jung's function model appears to have been, for anyone who's interested.

As I explained in my second post (and as Miss spelt has reiterated), Jung associated the characteristics that get somebody typed as an MBTI P with P-doms — rather than with EPs and IJs (as Myers did). So, face to face with a guy who was an MBTI INTP, I think Jung would have said that, as between his conscious J function (Ti) and his conscious P function (Ni), Ni was the dominant function and Ti was the auxiliary function.
 

Sinny91

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Miss spelt is correct to associate MBTI J's and P's with Jung's rational and irrational types (respectively), and that issue really goes hand in hand with the issue of the auxiliary's attitude. As noted in my first post, Myers said — and I'm not sure to what extent she really believed it or whether, as discussed in that post, it was somewhat of a disingenuous way to position the MBTI as more Jungian than it really was — that whether you were J or P depended on whether, as between your top two functions, it was the judging function or the perceiving function that was extraverted. But needless to say, that model depends on the premise that your top two functions consist of one extraverted function and one introverted function.

It's not uncommon to hear MBTI forumites declare that the J/P dimension was a Myers concoction that wasn't part of Jung's original typology, but I'd say that's only partly true. For Jung the first great divide between the types was the E/I divide, but the second one was the divide between the "rational types" (the J-doms) and the "irrational types" (the P-doms), and Chapter X of Psychological Types is organized accordingly. And if you read through Psychological Types looking for two-kinds-of-people-in-the-world descriptions that seem to line up reasonably well with the MBTI J/P dimension, you'll mostly find them in Jung's descriptions of the J-doms and P-doms. Jung said P-doms "find fulfilment in ... the flux of events" and are "attuned to the absolutely contingent," while J-doms seek to "coerce the untidiness and fortuitousness of life into a definite pattern." He said a J-dom tends to view a P-dom as "a hodge-podge of accidentals," while a P-dom "ripostes with an equally contemptuous opinion of his opposite number: he sees him as something only half alive, whose sole aim is to fasten the fetters of reason on everything living and strangle it with judgments."

Faced with, say, an introverted woman who seemed to have N and T preferences, I think one of the ways (perhaps the main way) Jung would have decided if she was Ni-Ti or Ti-Ni would have been to determine if she seemed more like one of his rational types (i.e., J-ish in MBTI terms, seeking to "fasten the fetters of reason on everything" and "coerce the untidiness and fortuitousness of life in a definite pattern") or like one of his irrational types ("finding fulfilment in the flux of events").

So... whereas the most popular modern functions model says that an INTP's functions are Ti-Ne-Si-Fe — while using, it must be added, substantially different conceptions of those functions than Jung's original descriptions — I believe that Jung, face to face with someone who would have tested INTP on the MBTI, would have said that he was dealing with an introverted irrational type with N and T preferences, and hence someone whose functions were Ni-Ti-Fe-Se.

Consistent with the idea that Jung's "irrational types" really line up better with all MBTI P's (rather than the EPs and IJs), the items that the official MBTI uses to tap into the J/P dimension include "When you go somewhere for the day, would you rather (J) plan what you will do and when, or (P) just go?" and "Do you prefer to (J) arrange dates, parties, etc., well in advance, or (P) be free to do whatever looks like fun when the time comes?" and "Which word appeals to you most? (P) impulse or (J) decision." So it's the MBTI P's (generally), and not the MBTI EPs and IJs whose test responses indicate that they're the ones most likely to "find fulfilment in ... the flux of events" (as Jung put it).

Put all that together and I think it's fair to say that, if the MBTI had been around in 1921 and Jung had been face to face with people whose types were clear from the standpoint of the MBTI dichotomies, Jung would have assigned the following function stacks to the 16 MBTI types:

The "extraverted rational types" (extraverted J-doms)

ENTJ: Te-Ne-Si-Fi
ESTJ: Te-Se-Ni-Fi
ENFJ: Fe-Ne-Si-Ti
ESFJ: Fe-Se-Ni-Ti

The "extraverted irrational types" (extraverted P-doms)

ENTP: Ne-Te-Fi-Si
ENFP: Ne-Fe-Ti-Si
ESTP: Se-Te-Fi-Ni
ESFP: Se-Fe-Ti-Ni

The "introverted rational types" (introverted J-doms)

INTJ: Ti-Ni-Se-Fe
ISTJ: Ti-Si-Ne-Fe
INFJ: Fi-Ni-Se-Te
ISFJ: Fi-Si-Ne-Te

The "introverted irrational types" (introverted P-doms)

INTP: Ni-Ti-Fe-Se
INFP: Ni-Fi-Te-Se
ISTP: Si-Ti-Fe-Ne
ISFP: Si-Fi-Te-Ne

As a final wonkish note, and as discussed at some length in this PerC post, Jung assigned what's arguably the lion's share of the modern conception of S/N (the concrete/abstract duality) to E/I, with the result that, when Jung looked out at the world and spotted what he thought was a definite "introvert," he was almost assuredly looking at someone who'd be typed IN under the MBTI (and ditto for Jungian "extraverts" and ES). So... a final caveat with respect to those Jungian function stacks is that it's fair to say that, to a significant degree, Jung's typology didn't really have neat slots for MBTI ENs and ISs — but the function-stack assignments in the list above basically ignore that complication and match Jung's types to MBTI types as if Jung's S/N and MBTI S/N were the same.

I find some of this plausible and relatable.
Thanks for posting.
 

Miss spelt

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^ I somewhat disagree on the function ordering you outlined (though maybe you discussed this and I missed it in my skimming). Reason being, someone that is self-aware is capable of understanding the affect/effect their subconscious has on them. In the Jungian sense this means making the unconscious conscious, which typically implies maturity through experience of the self over time and leads a person to develop an opposing conscious attitude to the one they primarily hold.

Basically since introversion and extroversion are different attitudes, to make the subconscious conscious requires different conscious attitudes. An introvert needs a conscious attitude of extroversion in order to control and utilize their extroverted subconscious. In this sense, a mature person develops a conscious attitude opposite to their natural one. So while I agree with your function ordering, I think it's only relevant for people that are not very experienced with their instincts or who have poor self-awareness.

I've thought about this now and I think I have a response.

I think the awareness you speak of, an integration of the unconscious attitude into the conscious disposition, might resemble "shadow function" theories somewhat.

I believe on the subject of functions, namely thinking, Jung did suggest that with each function-attitude you really can't define one without giving credence to the existence of the other.

So using the INTP as the example once more, if we characterize them as a Ni-Ti type, perhaps this integration of extraversion would resemble a kind of Ne-Te mindset rather than the inferior functions of Se-Fe or the standard model of Ti-Ne/Ni-Te.

In my mind this preserves the basic rational/irrational dichotomy (P/J) as well as the introversion-extraversion balance.

What do you think?
 

onesteptwostep

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Again, as I stressed at the end of my first post, it's not my theory. I think the cognitive functions themselves are a category mistake, so I'm not a subscriber to any function stack. I'm just describing what Jung's function model appears to have been, for anyone who's interested.

As I explained in my second post (and as Miss spelt has reiterated), Jung associated the characteristics that get somebody typed as an MBTI P with P-doms — rather than with EPs and IJs (as Myers did). So, face to face with a guy who was an MBTI INTP, I think Jung would have said that, as between his conscious J function (Ti) and his conscious P function (Ni), Ni was the dominant function and Ti was the auxiliary function.

It's largely speculative. If he had contact with Briggs and her daughter his perspective, and thus terminology, might change. Either way, the exposition of Jung's 'might haves' are irrelevant save for its historical/developmental factor.

Moreover, I find it interesting that no one here has original ideas, save for a few.

;)
 

Miss spelt

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Again, as I stressed at the end of my first post, it's not my theory. I think the cognitive functions themselves are a category mistake, so I'm not a subscriber to any function stack. I'm just describing what Jung's function model appears to have been, for anyone who's interested.

As I explained in my second post (and as Miss spelt has reiterated), Jung associated the characteristics that get somebody typed as an MBTI P with P-doms — rather than with EPs and IJs (as Myers did). So, face to face with a guy who was an MBTI INTP, I think Jung would have said that, as between his conscious J function (Ti) and his conscious P function (Ni), Ni was the dominant function and Ti was the auxiliary function.

If I understand you correctly reckful, you primarily believe that for the MBTI to have any validity we should look at it as a dichotomous sorting tool that lists four main preferences that are (more or less) congruent with extraversion, openness, agreeableness, and conscientiousness?

Would you go so far as to suggest that these are all continuums which are independently developed and therefore statistically most people are xxxx types?

Please correct me if I'm wrong about this interpretation, thank you.
 

Inquisitor

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Again, as I stressed at the end of my first post, it's not my theory. I think the cognitive functions themselves are a category mistake, so I'm not a subscriber to any function stack. I'm just describing what Jung's function model appears to have been, for anyone who's interested.

As I explained in my second post (and as Miss spelt has reiterated), Jung associated the characteristics that get somebody typed as an MBTI P with P-doms — rather than with EPs and IJs (as Myers did). So, face to face with a guy who was an MBTI INTP, I think Jung would have said that, as between his conscious J function (Ti) and his conscious P function (Ni), Ni was the dominant function and Ti was the auxiliary function.

Well, I can already poke one hole in this theory with this quote found in the "introverted thinking type:"

The counterbalancing functions of feeling, intuition, and sensations are comparatively unconscious and inferior, and therefore have a primitive extraverted character that accounts for all the troublesome influences from outside to which the introverted thinker is prone. The various protective devices and psychological minefields which such people surround themselves with are known to everyone, and I can spare myself a description of them. They all serve as a defence against "magical" influences--and among them is vague fear of the feminine sex.

So if Ti is dominant, then the other functions would accordingly be Ne, Se, and Fe, and it seems that any of these could "take control" so to speak. It would be nice if Jung had defined what these "protective devices and psychological minefields" were, so that I could try and relate it to my own life. I can relate to the underlined portion. The rest of the description fits me in some senses, but not in others. I get the feeling Jung drew on his experience working with Ti-doms who had trouble with their careers.

I also relate a little bit to the introverted intuitive type description, but not quite as much as the introverted thinking type. "The artist might be regarded as the normal representative of this type, which tends to confine itself to the perceptive character of intuition." That is definitely not me. I am above all someone consumed with seeking out the truth of matters that are personally important. Art is never something that came to me. "Although the intuitive type has little inclination to make a moral problem of perception, since a strengthening of the judging functions is required for this, only a slight differentiation of judgement is sufficient to shift intuitive perception from the purely aesthetic into the moral sphere."

I have no idea what Jung means here by "moral." Do you guys know what he meant?

Eh I'll take my chances.
If you were 10 years younger you might not need the same explanation twice over.

But let's not just criticize each other.

Can you write a short paragraph that explains why you think introverted thinking is so consistent with INTP?

It's this kind of comment that is going to get you banned. There's no need for it. You're brand new to this place. No one on this forum has directed a single insult or condescending remark in your direction, yet you persist in doing so yourself. My original criticisms of you stem from my belief that in contrast to reckful, you are not very well-read in this domain, yet you assert expertise, trivialize, and basically insult everyone who questions your knowledge. Instead, why not back up what you're saying, like reckful did, with major support/evidence from the literature as well as your personal experience? Your credibility would increase substantially if you did that and people would be a lot more receptive I think.
 

Sinny91

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reckful

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Well, I can already poke one hole in this theory with this quote found in the "introverted thinking type:"

I specifically discussed that quote, and how to reconcile it with Jung's descriptions of the auxiliary function, in my first post in the thread.
 

Miss spelt

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It's this kind of comment that is going to get you banned. There's no need for it. You're brand new to this place. No one on this forum has directed a single insult or condescending remark in your direction, yet you persist in doing so yourself. My original criticisms of you stem from my belief that in contrast to reckful, you are not very well-read in this domain, yet you assert expertise, trivialize, and basically insult everyone who questions your knowledge. Instead, why not back up what you're saying, like reckful did, with major support/evidence from the literature as well as your personal experience? Your credibility would increase substantially if you did that and people would be a lot more receptive I think.

I have a few things to say in response to this.

I guaran-fucking-tee you that if and when I get banned it won't be for minor retaliatory comments of the same qualitative nature to those which they are in response to. See the ban thread for clarification or speak to any of the mods, or even some (any) of the older members. Go ahead, I'll wait. Seriously. Hell, even ask reckful. He's probably going to stay out of it though.

I'll be banned when the madmin decide they've had enough of my shit and I'm making too many waves. :eek:

Second, I'm not going to bicker about who picks on whom or why. Don't be ridiculous!! You presume to be at liberty to tell me the negative and unpleasant things about myself but also respond disproportionately uproariously to the exact same thing. Are you lacking insight, sir? :mad:

Lastly, I'm toying with ideas here. If I assert expertise against your better judgement then I'm sorry that is simply my nature as I'm actually an ENTJ. It's actually not important, is it? This is an exercise in sharing ideas. Everybody already knows that Jung contradicts himself on the subject of I/E balancing as well as the nature of the auxiliary...so pointing it out like a super intellectual is actually just kind of dumb.

There is a small clan of people who love the MBTI and an even smaller clan who stick to cognitive functions as the ultimate depictions of underlying human nature. Architect is their leader. Everyone else is in it for the lulz. For clarification on this, see Post 1, sentence 1. :pueh:

My hostile approach towards you in particular stems from your presumptions to know things about me (angry feminist...for one) and your stubbornness- to reassert your judgements without considering intermittent responses, which, whether you accept it or not, have actually had the intent of soothing and pacifying the situation before it gets out of hand. I don't want to get into a shit-patty baseball dodgeball spitball Ricky-Lahey match with you, EVEN if it amuses the others.:elephant:

All this being said, your criticism is valid!! I would probably be better received (by you) if I had more exemplary knowledge of Psychological Types (like reckful). His posts are ALWAYS exceptional and it would be ridiculous to argue with him (trust me, I've tried.) The rest of us are mere mortals and in the grand scheme of things dude, this isn't a contest to see who has the best grasp on Types. We'd all lose, reckful would win, end of story.

I like this forum and I sincerely want to stay but trust me, you are the very LAST person who is going to tell me how to act OR what will "get me banned".:facepalm:
 

reckful

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If I understand you correctly reckful, you primarily believe that for the MBTI to have any validity we should look at it as a dichotomous sorting tool that lists four main preferences that are (more or less) congruent with extraversion, openness, agreeableness, and conscientiousness?

Would you go so far as to suggest that these are all continuums which are independently developed and therefore statistically most people are xxxx types?

Please correct me if I'm wrong about this interpretation, thank you.

There are multiple issues there.

I think virtually everybody respectable has always taken the view that the Jungian/MBTI dimensions are "continuums" if by that you simply mean that, e.g., some introverts are mild introverts and some introverts are strong introverts and so on. Jung himself said that he thought more people were essentially in the middle on E/I than were significantly extraverted or introverted, and also described the "differentiation" of functions that resulted in his types as a process whose degree of one-sidedness could vary considerably from one person to another (not to mention, as Jung saw it, in the same person from time to time).

Whether it's possible to be precisely in the middle on one or more of the MBTI (or Big Five) dimensions is something nobody's really in a position to know at this point, and is arguably something of an angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin issue in any case. And if there's something to the "facets" idea, then that means it probably doesn't make sense to talk in terms of assigning someone one exact position on a single spectrum in any case.

Along with McCrae and Costa (the leading Big Five psychologists) and James Reynierse and lots of other people, I'm of the view that the MBTI (in its imperfect way) is basically tapping into four of the five substantially-genetic underlying personality dimensions that the Big Five (in its imperfect way) is tapping into. And I think both typologies could use a lot of further work, and I agree with McCrae and Costa that each typology probably has things to learn from the other.

The James Reynierse article ("The Case Against Type Dynamics") that I often link to on MBTI forums talks about a theoretical framework that he calls "preference multidimensionality" — which, if you set aside some of Reynierse's more questionable proposed embellishments, is shorthand for what was essentially Isabel Myers' perspective, rather than being an original new framing. The fact that the four MBTI dichotomies (like the Big Five factors they correlate with) appear to be tapping into the core clusters of Jungian/MBTI personality emphatically doesn't mean that there aren't significant aspects of personality that more than one of those dichotomies contributes to. Decades of data (including Reynierse's studies) show that there are lots of personality characteristics that correspond to a wide variety of dichotomy combinations, and the 1985 MBTI Manual (co-authored by Myers) included a brief description corresponding to each of the 24 possible two-letter combinations.

But what the data also shows is that the only times the so-called "cognitive functions" have any validity is when they piggyback on the simple additive effects of the corresponding dichotomy combinations. And where the Harold Grant function stack (where INTJ=Ni-Te-Fi-Se) goes beyond, or is inconsistent with, the simple, dichotomy-based "preference multidimensionality" expectation — e.g., the Grant-model notion that there are "Fi/Te vs. Fe/Ti" aspects of personality where TJs and FPs are on one side of the divide and TPs and FJs are on the other — the real world virtually never seems to reflect those Grant-model expectations.

The way type really works is that S's and N's are opposites (or opposite-ish) when it comes to S/N stuff and J's and P's are opposites (or opposite-ish) when it comes to J/P stuff, and — believe it or not! — SJs and NPs are opposites (or opposite-ish) when it comes to SJ/NP stuff.

In decades of MBTI data pools, the patterns corresponding to the so-called "tandems" have virtually never shown up. Whatever it is that any particular study is correlating with MBTI type, if it's something with respect to which the SJs tend to be out toward one end of the correlational spectrum, you can expect to find the NPs out toward the other end. You virtually never find the SJs and NPs together on one side (because Ne/Si types) and the NJs and SPs together on the other (because Ni/Se types). And that's in stark contrast to the multitude of data pools — over more than 50 years — where substantial correlations have shown up between the MBTI dichotomies (and various dichotomy combinations) and a host of personality and behavioral characteristics.

Statistically significant correlations in reasonably large samples is how the validity of personality typologies gets respectably established. Without them, you might as well be talking about somebody being a Pisces. And virtually all the respectable data/studies point to the conclusion that the actual, at-least-semi-genetic, underlying components of MBTI personality are the four dichotomies, and that personality characteristics that result from (or are influenced by) a combination of two or more of the dichotomies are affected in a simple, additive way.

So, for example...

INTJ = I + N + T + J + IN + IT + IJ + NT + NJ + TJ + INT + INJ + ITJ + NTJ + INTJ.

INTP = I + N + T + P + IN + IT + IP + NT + NP + TP + INT + INP + ITP + NTP + INTP.

ESFP = E + S + F + P + ES + EF + EP + SF + SP + FP + ESF + ESP + EFP + SFP + ESFP.

And it follows from that that what I call the Real MBTI Model expects INTJs and INTPs to have a lot of MBTI-related characteristics in common, and INTJs and ESFPs to have no MBTI-related characteristics in common. (For a long discussion of the misguided notion that moving from J to P flips all your functions, so that INTJs and INTPs have no functions in common, see this PerC post.)

And if you assume that the Real MBTI Model is correct, it means that the the cognitive functions perspective that you most often encounter on internet forums is mistaken in multiple respects.

For one thing, the typical cognitive functions perspective treats a very limited subset of the MBTI preference combinations — e.g., NJ (Ni) and TJ (Te) for an INTJ — as if they were the fundamental building blocks of personality, while tending to ignore or shortchange the others.

For another, assuming somebody's working with the Harold Grant function stack, they're saying that INTJs, besides tending to have the characteristics that NJs and TJs tend to have in common, also tend to have the characteristics that FPs and SPs tend to have in common (onnaccounta INTJs' "Fi" and "Se"). But the Harold Grant function stack — and its associated "tandems" aspect (where INTJs and ESFPs are both "Ni/Se types" and "Fi/Te types") — has no respectable validity (on top of being inconsistent with Jung and Myers both).

For another, the typical cognitive functions perspective says that, comparing an INTJ and an INTP, the INTJs' N will generally play a greater role in their personality than their T and the INTPs' T will generally play a greater role than their N — because dom/aux! — and that notion, too, has no respectable validity. INTJs and INTPs both have N and T preferences, with all that those entail, and whether the N or the T plays a greater role in any NT's personality will basically depend on whether one of those two preferences is substantially stronger than the other — and the data suggests that the N preference is no more likely to be the stronger one for an INTJ than for an INTP.

And just in case that all sounds to anybody like some kind of MBTI revolution, I've put a sizeable chunk of recycled reckful in the spoiler (from that long INTJforum post that I linked to at the end of my first post) that explains why it makes no sense to view the functions as what the MBTI is really about — assuming the "MBTI" you're talking about is Isabel Myers and the official MBTI folks. Official MBTI materials have always been heavily dichotomy-dominated and, as Reynierse (among others) has rightly noted, there's now lots of respectable data in support of the dichotomy-centric MBTI, and virtually no respectable body of support for "type dynamics."

Meanwhile, for anyone who thinks that the rejection of the functions that Reynierse advocates would represent a revolutionary shift as far as the "official" MBTI is concerned, I'd argue, to the contrary, that the MBTI has essentially been centered around the dichotomies from the beginning. Aside from the test instruments themselves, the analysis in Myers' Gifts Differing focuses substantially more on the dichotomies than the functions. Myers was a nobody who didn't even have a psychology degree — not to mention a woman in mid-20th-century America — and I assume that background had at least something to do with the fact that her writings tend to somewhat disingenuously downplay the extent to which her typology differs from Jung. So it's no surprise, in that context, that the introductory chapters of Gifts Differing, besides introducing the four dichotomies, also include quite a bit of lip service to Jung's conceptions — or, at least, what Myers claimed were Jung's conceptions — of the dominant and auxiliary functions. But, with that behind her, Chapters 4-7 describe the effects of the "EI Preference," the "SN Preference," the "TF Preference" and the "JP Preference," and those four chapters total 22 pages. Chapter 8 then describes the eight functions — and that chapter consists solely of a half-page table for each function, for a total of four pages. What's more, those four pages were simply Briggs' summaries of Jung's function descriptions, and Myers ignored (and/or adjusted) substantial portions of those in creating her own type portraits. (As one example, as discussed in this PerC post, Myers' IS_Js bear little resemblance to Jung's Si-doms. And for a detailed discussion of the surgery Myers performed on Jung's conception of Te, see this PerC post.)

But most tellingly, following Myers' introductory and portrait chapters, the second half of Gifts Differing — covering a variety of topics, including "Use of the Opposites," "Type and Marriage," "Learning Styles" and "Type and Occupation" — focuses almost exclusively on the dichotomies, both singly and in combinations that don't correspond to the functions. She talks about introverts and extraverts, thinking types and feeling types, intuitives and sensing types, judging types and perceptive types, "INs," "ESs," "NF types," "STs," "introverts with thinking" (i.e., ITs), "EF types," "ESF types," "ISTs" and on and on. At one point in the Type and Marriage chapter, "FJ types with extraverted feeling" are mentioned, but that's very much the exception that proves the rule. References to the functions (and the dichotomy combinations that correspond to them) are almost entirely absent from the book's second half, and on the rare occasions when she refers to one of the two-letter combinations that corresponds to a function — e.g., SJ (Si) — she most often makes no reference to the function. At one point, for example, she notes that "Judging types, especially those who prefer sensing (the –S–J types), like their work to be organized, systematic, and foreseeable." I'm not suggesting that this means Myers didn't really believe in the functions (necessarily, anyway), but she was certainly not a theorist who thought the functions were anything like the main event.

Five years later, the 1985 edition of the MBTI Manual, co-authored by Myers, was even more lopsided in favor of the dichotomies. In a 1990 article ("Review of Research on the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator." Perceptual & Motor Skills, 70, 1187) in which John B. Murray concluded that the MBTI's "indices of reliability and validity have been extensively investigated and have been judged acceptable," Murray noted that over 1500 studies were included in the 1985 Manual — many of them either discussed in the text or included in one or more tables of statistics. And good luck finding any results in that manual that are framed in terms of the cognitive functions. The 1985 Manual is full of statistics correlating type with interests, occupations, scholastic achievement, other personality measures, etc. — and the reported correlations almost exclusively involve the four dichotomies, the sixteen types and/or dichotomy combinations with no meaningful function correspondence — with the combinations most often included (by a wide margin) being ST, SF, NT and NF. So, on top of the fact that Myers and the rest of the official MBTI establishment were predominantly dichotomy-focused, it's also clear that the independent psychologists conducting many of those studies weren't laboring under any misconception that the MBTI dichotomies were relatively superficial indicators (convenient for testing and/or labeling purposes) while the cognitive functions were what the typology was really about.

The third edition of the MBTI Manual was published in 1998 and, according to the Reynierse article I linked to above, it cites a grand total of eight studies involving "type dynamics" (i.e., the functions model) — and Reynierse summarizes them as "six studies that failed, one with a questionable interpretation, and one where contradictory evidence was offered as support." He then notes, "Type theory's claim that type dynamics is superior to the static model and the straightforward contribution of the individual preferences rests on this ephemeral empirical foundation."

And finally, I think it's also worth noting that the 17-page report that an ENFJ (for example) receives after taking the relatively recent MBTI Step II test includes page after page of dichotomy-based analysis (including five separate subscales for each of the four dichotomies) and not a single mention of "extraverted feeling" or "introverted intuition" other than a diagram near the end that shows that "ENFJs like Feeling best, Intuition next, Sensing third and Thinking least," and one brief note about tending to use Feeling in the "outer world" and Intuition in the "inner world." All the rest of the ENFJ descriptions in the report — after the brief initial profile, which isn't broken down by components — are descriptions of N (not Ni or Ne), F (not Fi or Fe) and so on, and they're the same descriptions of N and F (and the five subscales of each) that ENFPs receive in their reports (notwithstanding the fact that ENFJs are Fe-Ni and ENFPs are Ne-Fi). And Nancy Harkey has pointed out that "there is no discussion in the Step II manual of applying type dynamics (dominant, auxiliary etc.) to the overall preferences. I really don't know what that means at the moment, but it is curious."

The more I reread Psychological Types, the more I appreciate the extent to which getting from Jung to the Myers-Briggs typology involved substantial adjustments and additions. I think the formidable job Briggs and Myers did in separating the Jungian wheat from the chaff and modifying and supplementing Jung's theory is grotesquely underappreciated by many internet forumites. Myers may not have been as smart as Jung, and she may not have had a psychology degree, but she and her mother had the benefit of standing on Jung's shoulders, and Myers then spent many years, as a labor of love, designing and refining her test instrument and gathering data from thousands of subjects, leading her to conclude — among other things — that the four dichotomies (as she conceived them), and not the functions, were the main event. I think Myers' conceptions of the dichotomies and the types still leave plenty of room for further improvement but, fifty years later, the results of many more studies — and, in particular, the correlation of the MBTI dichotomies with the Big Five — suggest that, in terms of the basics, Myers pretty much got it right. If Jung were still around, I think he'd mostly approve.
Buuut alas, Myers' lip service to the functions created what proved to be a significant marketing opportunity for a handful of MBTI theorists who've made names for themselves in the last 20 years or so by peddling a more function-centric version of the MBTI. And for better or worse (and I think it's unfortunate), both the CAPT and the Myers-Briggs Foundation have long reflected the attitude that the MBTI "community" is basically all one big happy family, and — within certain limits — dichotomy-centric theorist/practitioners are free to be dichotomy-centric and function-centric theorist/practitioners are free to be function-centric, and everybody can sell their books and hold their seminars and it's all good.
 

Miss spelt

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Those equations don't balance :D reckful

INTJ = .. .. .. + INTJ

THATS WHATS UP:evil:
 

Inquisitor

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All this being said, your criticism is valid!! I would probably be better received (by you) if I had more exemplary knowledge of Psychological Types (like reckful). His posts are ALWAYS exceptional and it would be ridiculous to argue with him (trust me, I've tried.) The rest of us are mere mortals and in the grand scheme of things dude, this isn't a contest to see who has the best grasp on Types. We'd all lose, reckful would win, end of story.

I like this forum and I sincerely want to stay but trust me, you are the very LAST person who is going to tell me how to act OR what will "get me banned".:facepalm:

No you would be received better by everyone if you just toned it down a notch on the insults. Your knowledge of Psychological Types is not the issue, it's how you write + the fact that you claim to know all about it when you clearly don't. I never said you were an "angry feminist," just a "feminist." I inferred this based on the fact that you seemed inordinately upset about Drenth's post, especially the parts concerning gender. If you are biased in that direction and then try to invalidate the author's premise based on that one tidbit, then I don't think the "feminist" label is inaccurate. Feminism has its pluses and minuses like everything else. I am indifferent to it and to feminists in general, just like I am to democrats and republicans.

You are right that I cannot tell you how to act, but already I know for a fact two people on this forum think you act like a jerk. I get that you want to shake things up, but let your ideas do the work for you. OTOH, if you want to keep making waves, keep it up...

As for reckful, I don't know enough about him, but if he really is a prodigious typology expert as you say, then fantastic. I would love to learn from him, and it should be no trouble for him to fend off a "mere mortal" like myself.
 

reckful

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Those equations don't balance :D reckful

INTJ = .. .. .. + INTJ

THATS WHATS UP:evil:
I assume you're probably joshing, but to clarify just in case you or anyone else is confused...

In this "equation" (from my earlier post)...

INTJ = I + N + T + J + IN + IT + IJ + NT + NJ + TJ + INT + INJ + ITJ + NTJ + INTJ

... the "I" refers to stuff that all introverts tend to have in common; the "INJ" refers to stuff that INJs specifically tend to have in common (and that, e.g., ISJs and INPs don't tend to share with INJs); and so on.

So the "INTJ" at the tail end of the equation is a reference to stuff that tends to be characteristic of INTJs but not characteristic of any of the other 16 types.

So if anybody was in a position to properly assign the personality characteristics associated with each of those dichotomies and combinations, (1) there'd be no overlap between those 15 subcomponents of the INTJ type portrait, and (2) added together, those 15 component descriptions would include all the MBTI-related aspects of personality that tend to be characteristic of INTJs.
 

Reluctantly

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I've thought about this now and I think I have a response.

I think the awareness you speak of, an integration of the unconscious attitude into the conscious disposition, might resemble "shadow function" theories somewhat.

I believe on the subject of functions, namely thinking, Jung did suggest that with each function-attitude you really can't define one without giving credence to the existence of the other.

So using the INTP as the example once more, if we characterize them as a Ni-Ti type, perhaps this integration of extraversion would resemble a kind of Ne-Te mindset rather than the inferior functions of Se-Fe or the standard model of Ti-Ne/Ni-Te.

In my mind this preserves the basic rational/irrational dichotomy (P/J) as well as the introversion-extraversion balance.

What do you think?

It makes sense, since someone that is say NT will relate a lot to intuition and thinking in general, which is why I'm not big on function orders because they seem to oversimplify. But I was thinking in terms of complete function attitude opposites, namely Ti-Fe, Fi-Te, Ni-Se, Si-Ne, etc; these have a much stronger link to consciousness because they define it in some way. In this sense, it's through understanding the influence of the inferior that we better understand ourselves, or in other words through experiencing neurosis that we come to a better understanding of our psyche.

Essentially I guess it's a bit more complicated than this as well. I could argue there are different kinds of types. You've got extreme introverts/extroverts, mature types with a lot of self-awareness, people that relate strongly to either NT, NF, ST, or SF, but do not have a strong function attitude, and people that aren't differentiated at all.



*People that aren't differentiated are kind of pointless to type because there's not enough substance to begin with.

*People that are strong introverts/extroverts hold strongly one of the 8 function attitudes that links strongly to their subconscious inferior in terms of neurosis. They also have the capability to gain a lot of self-awareness and develop an auxiliary function to harness their subconscious positively. I'd say these people have the potential to mature. I guess if we used your example of INTP being Ni first and Ti second, it would make sense that a Te auxiliary might be created in maturation because they would be NT, but that seems too logical, so I can't support that exactly and have no opinion right now (not that I think you do either).

*People that relate to a temperament, but aren't strongly introverted or extroverted, act neurotic but in a way that's incoherent to integrate into self-awareness. This is because their psyche can't or won't commit on what inferior function to integrate. They are differentiated to an extent, but not enough to have a type and unable to exert any kind of positive self-control on it.

*People with a lot of self-awareness that have a more complete, stable, and adaptable psyche. They have a developed auxiliary, a strong sense of self, and an understanding of their instincts. These people are easy to type for those that understand psychological types on an abstract conceptual level, but hard for those that use traits, stereotypes, behaviorism, and categories to type people.
 

redbaron

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Posting on phone, apologies in advance.

redbaron I read the above quote from Jung as a criticism of using statistical data in understanding an individual.

It's akin to explaining the correct application of scientific inquiry in a psychological context.

That said, Jung would never have gone to the trouble to writing Psychological Types if he didn't believe people could be categorized.

Non-Sequitir, but I'll entertain it.

What's Psychological Types even about? In the context of Jung's overall body of work I think it's fair to say one of his overall motivations was developing a means of obtaining self-knowledge of the individual. Something he doesn't lend to the realm of statistical categorization.

He does indeed point out there are general differences in people and that we can use statistical information to speak generally about humans.

But the tool of MBTI and its proponents go much, much further than that and frequently attempt to delve into individual motivations. It's essentially using a bulldozer to do an aechaelogical dig, as opposed to carefully extracting via brushes and hand tools.

I find MBTI type descriptions only somewhat useful. But the functions help identify an individual's most fundamental motivations, and that's a blind spot for me. It has predictive value and makes interacting with and understanding the individual much easier.

This is an illusory benefit.

If someone is good at identifying fundamental motivations in individuals, it's not because they're good at applying a statistical template to people.

The appeal of MBTI is a false messiah in this realm, as I've already highlighted in a previous post:

The appeal of such templates lie in their ability to structure and order parts of the world that to our human brain, are otherwise chaotic and difficult to comprehend.

However I believe that it is a betrayal of ultimate truth to attempt to order, for the sake of simplicity, that which is far better understood in its original state of chaos. Irrespective of how difficult it may be to fully formulate one's understanding into a tangible linguistic or logical body of knowledge without resorting to a statistical template, I maintain that it is far more authentic and true to the nature of the object to refrain from doing as such, and that it allows a far deeper level of understanding.

As an aside, from observing you on the forum I think the last thing you need to understand people better is another statistical template.

Layered on top of that, one can then add the other factors you mentioned like culture, upbringing, and so forth.

And yet the initial assignment of function cannot take place without first interacting with the effects of a person's culture, upbringing and so forth. Once applied, the nature of the template mitigates the impact of various major defining factors that result in the overall psyche of an individual.

But I do believe that the functions correspond to the efficacy of certain neural networks in the brain.

There's absolutely no reason that it would be the 8 functions dichotomized as per MBTI. People interpret things to fit MBTI. There's so much cognitive bias in typology circles it's insane.
 

Inquisitor

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But the tool of MBTI and its proponents go much, much further than that and frequently attempt to delve into individual motivations. It's essentially using a bulldozer to do an aechaelogical dig, as opposed to carefully extracting via brushes and hand tools.

Don't agree with this. MBTI is just a tool. What you read on forums is people in the act of trying out this tool/applying it to their lives/"intellectual mastication." Nobody believes MBTI is the only factor behind all motivation.


This is an illusory benefit.

If someone is good at identifying fundamental motivations in individuals, it's not because they're good at applying a statistical template to people.

True. Some people are excellent at understanding other people's motives, emotions, social norms, etc. That's because they orient themselves towards the world in this way. And since they have done it for nearly their entire lives, it's really no surprise that they are good at it. But for others like me who don't approach the world in the same way, MBTI is a great way to engage that analytical side and gain a better understanding of what makes people tick. Without a framework, it's much harder to do.

As an aside, from observing you on the forum I think the last thing you need to understand people better is another statistical template.

This doesn't sound like a nice comment. No idea what you mean by this.

And yet the initial assignment of function cannot take place without first interacting with the effects of a person's culture, upbringing and so forth.

Assuming "functions" are even valid (thanks to reckful), are you saying they are culturally determined? AFAIK MBTI dichotomies exist independent of culture, upbringing, etc.

Once applied, the nature of the template mitigates the impact of various major defining factors that result in the overall psyche of an individual.

Some people do go to extremes...

There's absolutely no reason that it would be the 8 functions dichotomized as per MBTI. People interpret things to fit MBTI. There's so much cognitive bias in typology circles it's insane.

Ok, fine. No functions. The idea that certain neural networks are more efficient than others and therefore preferentially used seems to be backed up by the MBTI dichotomies. If you are naturally inclined to use deductive reasoning, then you will not, by definition be inclined to use inductive reasoning because the latter is something your brain just isn't used to doing. The example I brought up could related to IT vs. ET in the MBTI. Maybe Ti and Te don't exist in and of themselves, but the idea holds true...
 

Miss spelt

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Inquisitor

I'm glad we found some common ground, finally

I too am of the opinion that cognitive functioning is basically patterns of neural networks which get reinforced over time. I have the belief that herein lies the neurobiological basis for typology.

The core structure which is primarily relevant here is the thalamus, I believe.
 

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Inquisitor

I'm glad we found some common ground, finally

I too am of the opinion that cognitive functioning is basically patterns of neural networks which get reinforced over time. I have the belief that herein lies the neurobiological basis for typology.

The core structure which is primarily relevant here is the thalamus, I believe.

Glad to hear that.

Why do you think it's the thalamus?
 

Analyzer

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Good thread. Reckful has put forth some interesting ideas.

Interestingly, I have always identified more with Jung's conception of the introverted intuitive type rather than introverted thinking type. On the other hand I identify more with MBTI/Kiersey's INTP rather than INTJ. There is definitely some confusion and inconsistencies regarding irrational/perceiving types vs rational/judging types in typology circles. I wonder how many people have actually read Jung's material?
 

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Edited - I will mull this over a bit more.
 

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I specifically discussed that quote, and how to reconcile it with Jung's descriptions of the auxiliary function, in my first post in the thread.

I re-read your post. I still don't understand why Jung would have said that the inferior functions are all extraverted in attitude. Was that a mistake on his part? You're saying that when he wrote Chapter X, his ideas were not the same as those he developed later and that "Jungian scholars" disagree somehow? Which scholars are you talking about?

The comparison between Jung and Myers was fascinating and informative. Don't get me wrong, it was a great post, and I really enjoyed reading it and learned a lot...but in the absence of anything by Jung that supports what you are saying, I'm still inclined to believe that the functional stack, (if it even exists) was Ti-Ne-Se-Fe, with S and F carrying equal weight. The possible reversal of the aux and dom was I believe? supported empirically in that Reynierse article you referenced, and I see why you would then say that since introversion/extraversion was Jung's primary concern, the stack would temporarily look like Ni-Ti-Se-Fe. However, I don't believe that you can then conclude that in a "normal" individual (no reversal between dom and aux) that Ti-Ni is the default sequence, when Jung clearly said something different.

FWIW, from personal experience, I have noticed that if someone needs my help, I am strongly motivated to give them that help. I have no idea why this is the case. Somehow it gives me a high when someone asks for my help. It's like I'm being validated in some way. I always interpreted that as being my unconscious F. The way I tend to help people is interesting in and of itself. I approach their problem as something to be solved, and I enjoy brainstorming possible solutions. I interpreted this to be a reflection of Ne. I don't usually feel very much empathy, however, for the plight of others', and my primary orientation is always analytical. Of course you might say that this interpretation is nonsense, and you might have a point. But the functional stack paints such an accurate picture in my situation that it's hard to ignore.

I also believe that you are likely correct that Myers' conclusion that the dominant and auxiliary provide balance between introversion and extraversion is likely incorrect. Jung also seems to disagree with this as you demonstrated. Certainly in my own life, I have noticed that I have consistently been strongly drawn to the humanities and for a long time was convinced that I had to pick a humanitarian career that was related to helping those less fortunate/in need (eg medicine, poverty alleviation, working for the UN, etc.). I have no idea why I felt this compunction, but everytime I think of working in a humanitarian career, I get these emotional pangs that seem entirely unexplainable. It's not a pleasant feeling. I do not get these same emotions when I think about computer science, which I'm currently studying.

My INTJ cousin OTOH (based on MBTI), I believe suffers from an inferior S. He used to be obese and would overindulge in sweet foods, rice pudding, desserts. This sensory overindulgence was not really ever something I suffered from growing up.

Anyway, these are some of the reasons I believe that there is a functional stack of sorts, but I am having trouble, given the above, seeing how I could be a dominant Ni/inferior Se, as outlined in your theory.
 

reckful

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I re-read your post. I still don't understand why Jung would have said that the inferior functions are all extraverted in attitude. Was that a mistake on his part? You're saying that when he wrote Chapter X, his ideas were not the same as those he developed later and that "Jungian scholars" disagree somehow? Which scholars are you talking about?

The comparison between Jung and Myers was fascinating and informative. Don't get me wrong, it was a great post, and I really enjoyed reading it and learned a lot...but in the absence of anything by Jung that supports what you are saying, I'm still inclined to believe that the functional stack, (if it even exists) was Ti-Ne-Se-Fe, with S and F carrying equal weight.

No, I'm definitely not saying Jung changed his mind about the function stack after Psychological Types. As I explained in the first post, the only way I can see to reconcile that passage about the Ti-doms' three unconscious functions with the rest of Psychological Types — including his references to the dom and aux as the "conscious functions" — is to conclude that he viewed the three unconscious functions state of affairs as what I referred to as the "default" state of affairs (with an undifferentiated second function), and that the differentiation of the second function (putting it to service as the auxiliary) would involve both that function going from unconscious to (predominantly) conscious and that function taking on the "conscious attitude."

You say you re-read my post. Well, if you read it all the way through, you read the part of my discussion that I've copied into this spoiler:

In 1923 — two years after Psychological Types was published — Jung gave a lecture (separately published in 1925) that's included in the Collected Works edition of Psychological Types. After some opening remarks on the shortcomings of past approaches to typology, here's how he began his discussion of extraverts and introverts:

f we wish to define the psychological peculiarity of a man in terms that will satisfy not only our own subjective judgment but also the object judged, we must take as our criterion that state or attitude which is felt by the object to be the conscious, normal condition. Accordingly, we shall make his conscious motives our first concern, while eliminating as far as possible our own arbitrary interpretations.

Proceeding thus we shall discover, after a time, that in spite of the great variety of conscious motives and tendencies, certain groups of individuals can be distinguished who are characterized by a striking conformity of motivation. For example, we shall come upon individuals who in all their judgments, perceptions, feelings, affects, and actions feel external factors to be the predominant motivating force, or who at least give weight to them no matter whether causal or final motives are in question. I will give some examples of what I mean. St. Augustine: "I would not believe the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not compel it." ... One man finds a piece of modern music beautiful because everybody else pretends it is beautiful. Another marries in order to please his parents but very much against his own interests. ... There are not a few who in everything they do or don't do have but one motive in mind: what will others think of them? "One need not be ashamed of a thing if nobody knows about it."

[The previous examples] point to a psychological peculiarity that can be sharply distinguished from another attitude which, by contrast, is motivated chiefly by internal or subjective factors. A person of this type might say: "I know I could give my father the greatest pleasure if I did so and so, but I don't happen to think that way." Or: "I see that the weather has turned out bad, but in spite of it I shall carry out my plan." This type does not travel for pleasure but to execute a preconceived idea. ... There are some who feel happy only when they are quite sure nobody knows about it, and to them a thing is disagreeable just because it is pleasing to everyone else. They seek the good where no one would think of finding it. ... Such a person would have replied to St. Augustine: "I would believe the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not compel it." Always he has to prove that everything he does rests on his own decisions and convictions, and never because he is influenced by anyone, or desires to please or conciliate some person or opinion.

This attitude characterizes a group of individuals whose motivations are derived chiefly from the subject, from inner necessity.


The first thing to note here is that, in the second sentence of that second paragraph, Jung characterizes extraverts as people "who in all their judgments, perceptions, feelings, affects, and actions feel external factors to be the predominant motivating force." Judgments and perceptions both. This is clearly inconsistent with the idea that a typical extravert would either be extraverted in their judgments and introverted in their perceptions or vice versa.

And in case you think, well, maybe Jung just slipped up in terms of how he worded that one sentence — although I'd say that would have been a pretty huge slip-up — the second thing to focus on here is the substance of the second and third paragraphs as a whole. They're pretty much all about judgments, right? The second paragraph describes a series of extraverted judgments and the third paragraph describes a series of introverted judgments. And Jung doesn't say those extraverted judgments are characteristic of Je-doms and Pi-doms; he says they're characteristic of all extraverts (Je-doms and Pe-doms alike). And likewise he says the introverted judgments in the third paragraph are characteristic of all introverts (Ji-doms and Pi-doms alike). And again, there is no way that is how he would have described things if his model said that half of extraverted judgers were introverts (the Pi-doms) and half of introverted judgers were extraverts (the Pe-doms).

How can you possibly reconcile those paragraphs (from 1923) with the idea that Jung's function stack (at that time) called for someone to either be extraverted in their judgments but introverted in their perceptions or vice versa?
 

Inquisitor

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No, I'm definitely not saying Jung changed his mind about the function stack after Psychological Types. As I explained in the first post, the only way I can see to reconcile that passage about the Ti-doms' three unconscious functions with the rest of Psychological Types — including his references to the dom and aux as the "conscious functions" — is to conclude that he viewed the three unconscious functions state of affairs as what I referred to as the "default" state of affairs (with an undifferentiated second function), and that the differentiation of the second function (putting it to service as the auxiliary) would involve both that function going from unconscious to (predominantly) conscious and that function taking on the "conscious attitude."

Why are you automatically assuming that the aux goes from "unconscious" to "conscious?" This doesn't make sense considering the fact that Jung only referenced the secondary function as being relatively less conscious than the first. I don't recall him saying anywhere that the secondary function is in the unconscious, to the same extent for instance as the inferior function, which is most definitely in the "unconscious" realm. I see where you're coming from, but given that MBTI definitions of introversion/extraversion are fundamentally different (related from what I can see to extraversion on the Big 5) from the Jungian definitions (subjective/objective), I don't think it's possible to just conclude that the aux has to have the same attitude as the dominant when it becomes "more conscious."

You say you re-read my post. Well, if you read it all the way through, you read the part of my discussion that I've copied into this spoiler:

In 1923 — two years after Psychological Types was published — Jung gave a lecture (separately published in 1925) that's included in the Collected Works edition of Psychological Types. After some opening remarks on the shortcomings of past approaches to typology, here's how he began his discussion of extraverts and introverts:

f we wish to define the psychological peculiarity of a man in terms that will satisfy not only our own subjective judgment but also the object judged, we must take as our criterion that state or attitude which is felt by the object to be the conscious, normal condition. Accordingly, we shall make his conscious motives our first concern, while eliminating as far as possible our own arbitrary interpretations.

Proceeding thus we shall discover, after a time, that in spite of the great variety of conscious motives and tendencies, certain groups of individuals can be distinguished who are characterized by a striking conformity of motivation. For example, we shall come upon individuals who in all their judgments, perceptions, feelings, affects, and actions feel external factors to be the predominant motivating force, or who at least give weight to them no matter whether causal or final motives are in question. I will give some examples of what I mean. St. Augustine: "I would not believe the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not compel it." ... One man finds a piece of modern music beautiful because everybody else pretends it is beautiful. Another marries in order to please his parents but very much against his own interests. ... There are not a few who in everything they do or don't do have but one motive in mind: what will others think of them? "One need not be ashamed of a thing if nobody knows about it."

[The previous examples] point to a psychological peculiarity that can be sharply distinguished from another attitude which, by contrast, is motivated chiefly by internal or subjective factors. A person of this type might say: "I know I could give my father the greatest pleasure if I did so and so, but I don't happen to think that way." Or: "I see that the weather has turned out bad, but in spite of it I shall carry out my plan." This type does not travel for pleasure but to execute a preconceived idea. ... There are some who feel happy only when they are quite sure nobody knows about it, and to them a thing is disagreeable just because it is pleasing to everyone else. They seek the good where no one would think of finding it. ... Such a person would have replied to St. Augustine: "I would believe the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not compel it." Always he has to prove that everything he does rests on his own decisions and convictions, and never because he is influenced by anyone, or desires to please or conciliate some person or opinion.

This attitude characterizes a group of individuals whose motivations are derived chiefly from the subject, from inner necessity.


The first thing to note here is that, in the second sentence of that second paragraph, Jung characterizes extraverts as people "who in all their judgments, perceptions, feelings, affects, and actions feel external factors to be the predominant motivating force." Judgments and perceptions both. This is clearly inconsistent with the idea that a typical extravert would either be extraverted in their judgments and introverted in their perceptions or vice versa.

And in case you think, well, maybe Jung just slipped up in terms of how he worded that one sentence — although I'd say that would have been a pretty huge slip-up — the second thing to focus on here is the substance of the second and third paragraphs as a whole. They're pretty much all about judgments, right? The second paragraph describes a series of extraverted judgments and the third paragraph describes a series of introverted judgments. And Jung doesn't say those extraverted judgments are characteristic of Je-doms and Pi-doms; he says they're characteristic of all extraverts (Je-doms and Pe-doms alike). And likewise he says the introverted judgments in the third paragraph are characteristic of all introverts (Ji-doms and Pi-doms alike). And again, there is no way that is how he would have described things if his model said that half of extraverted judgers were introverts (the Pi-doms) and half of introverted judgers were extraverts (the Pe-doms).

How can you possibly reconcile those paragraphs (from 1923) with the idea that Jung's function stack (at that time) called for someone to either be extraverted in their judgments but introverted in their perceptions or vice versa?


I have you to thank in terms of opening my eyes to how different MBTI and type dynamics really are, but I actually think you're making the very mistake here that Reynierse crusaded against.

1) You seem to be conflating MBTI J/P with Jung's notions of introversion/extraversion, which have absolutely nothing to do with the J/P dichotomy of MBTI. I can have Ne as my aux, and this is totally unrelated to J/P. At least that's what the empirical evidence seems to demonstrate per that Reynierse article. J/P is it's own measure. I/E on MBTI is completely different from Jung's ideas with the same labels. Myers basically caricatured introverts as people who are not very social/outgoing/outspoken/gregarious/prefer to spend time alone and extraverts as the opposite. I recall reading Von Franz saying that one of the biggest misconceptions in typology was equating introverts to this caricature, because it's absolutely not necessarily true.

2) There's nothing in those paragraphs to suggest that a Jungian introvert could not have an aux of the opposite attitude. Here's how I read those paragraphs: The overwhelming motivation of an introvert is upholding the subject (whatever that is), and for the extravert it's the object. The aux for an introvert might serve that supreme objective by considering what is objective. The reverse would be true for a dominant extravert.

Since you have made a convincing case for why type dynamics should be kept separate from MBTI, I don't see why you seem to be putting them together again now...?
 

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It looks like he may have been suggesting that an auxiliary was not a requirement but did serve a purpose nonetheless, if and when differentiation did occur. I think @Reluctantly hit the mark in his latest post in this thread.

Regarding commentary about "sensory indulgence" in INTJs I wonder if we're making an error in understanding, @Inquisitor, that perhaps this type of sensation is qualitatively distinct from the psychic function of sensation and the two really should not be confused* I'll have to have another look sometime.

*similar to any of the other functions which can be confused with common parlance - namely feeling with emotions, thinking with....thinking. Ehh, hard to put into words. I'm neutral in this discussion now.
 

Inquisitor

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It looks like he may have been suggesting that an auxiliary was not a requirement but did serve a purpose nonetheless, if and when differentiation did occur. I think @Reluctantly hit the mark in his latest post in this thread.

Regarding commentary about "sensory indulgence" in INTJs I wonder if we're making an error in understanding, @Inquisitor, that perhaps this type of sensation is qualitatively distinct from the psychic function of sensation and the two really should not be confused* I'll have to have another look sometime.

*similar to any of the other functions which can be confused with common parlance - namely feeling with emotions, thinking with....thinking. Ehh, hard to put into words. I'm neutral in this discussion now.

It's certainly possible I'm making an error, but I attributed this to Se because in the case of an INTJ, it's located in the unconscious, and therefore "archaic/primitive" etc. I've also observed on the INTJ forum that "when Se acts out" gluttony is one of its forms. They basically have poor control over this aspect of themselves. Interestingly, I have observed that INTJ's fall into the endomorphic category, corresponding roughly to the Ayurvedic prakruti (physical constitution) of Kapha. The Kapha-type individual, when stressed, is prone to overindulgence. Now Ayurveda is much more well-established than typology...it explains why fat people have such a hard time losing weight. Whether this has any connection to Se remains to be seen, but I'm a big believer in the idea of psychological types having definite correlations with physical constitution.
 

reckful

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Why are you automatically assuming that the aux goes from "unconscious" to "conscious?" This doesn't make sense considering the fact that Jung only referenced the secondary function as being relatively less conscious than the first. I don't recall him saying anywhere that the secondary function is in the unconscious, to the same extent for instance as the inferior function, which is most definitely in the "unconscious" realm. I see where you're coming from, but given that MBTI definitions of introversion/extraversion are fundamentally different (related from what I can see to extraversion on the Big 5) from the Jungian definitions (subjective/objective), I don't think it's possible to just conclude that the aux has to have the same attitude as the dominant when it becomes "more conscious."


I have you to thank in terms of opening my eyes to how different MBTI and type dynamics really are, but I actually think you're making the very mistake here that Reynierse crusaded against.

1) You seem to be conflating MBTI J/P with Jung's notions of introversion/extraversion, which have absolutely nothing to do with the J/P dichotomy of MBTI. I can have Ne as my aux, and this is totally unrelated to J/P. At least that's what the empirical evidence seems to demonstrate per that Reynierse article. J/P is it's own measure. I/E on MBTI is completely different from Jung's ideas with the same labels. Myers basically caricatured introverts as people who are not very social/outgoing/outspoken/gregarious/prefer to spend time alone and extraverts as the opposite. I recall reading Von Franz saying that one of the biggest misconceptions in typology was equating introverts to this caricature, because it's absolutely not necessarily true.

2) There's nothing in those paragraphs to suggest that a Jungian introvert could not have an aux of the opposite attitude. Here's how I read those paragraphs: The overwhelming motivation of an introvert is upholding the subject (whatever that is), and for the extravert it's the object. The aux for an introvert might serve that supreme objective by considering what is objective. The reverse would be true for a dominant extravert.

Since you have made a convincing case for why type dynamics should be kept separate from MBTI, I don't see why you seem to be putting them together again now...?

You're basically just asking me to keep repeating myself, and can't have read my first post even once with much care.

You say I'm putting together type dynamics with MBTI, but as I emphasized at the end of my first post, it's talking about what Jung's function model was. I don't endorse any function model, because I agree with Reynierse that the functions are a "category mistake."

But getting back to what Jung thought...

You ask why I'm "assuming that the aux goes from unconscious to conscious?" Well, how about because Jung specifically referred to the dom and aux as the "conscious functions" and the third and fourth functions as the "unconscious functions," both in Psychological Types and 30 years later, and I pointed that out in my first post.

I don't disagree that E/I and J/P are independent personality dimensions. The issue under discussion is whether Jung thought that someone would either be extraverted in their (conscious) judgments and introverted in their (conscious) perceptions or vice versa — and as I noted in both my first post and my last post, that's glaringly inconsistent with what he said in that 1923 lecture that he later added to the Collected Works edition of Psychological Types.

As for the idea that the social aspects of E/I were something Myers added to Jung, that's just a ridiculous meme that gets passed around on internet forums and in other bad MBTI sources.

Jung viewed extraversion/introversion as the most fundamental division underlying his types, and spent more of Psychological Types talking about the personality characteristics he thought extraverts tended to have in common and introverts tended to have in common than he spent talking about all eight of the functions put together.

Jung believed that the ultimate reason there were extraverts and introverts in the first place was that extraversion and introversion represented two competing evolutionary strategies, each successful in its own way. Here's how he described them:

There are in nature two fundamentally different modes of adaptation which ensure the continued existence of the living organism. The one consists of a high rate of fertility, with low powers of defense and short duration of life for the single individual; the other consists in equipping the individual with numerous means of self-preservation plus a low fertility rate. This biological difference, it seems to me, is not merely analogous to, but the actual foundation of, our two psychological modes of adaptation. I must content myself with this broad hint. It is sufficient to note that the peculiar nature of the extravert constantly urges him to expend and propagate himself in every way, while the tendency of the introvert is to defend himself against all demands from outside, to conserve his energy by withdrawing it from objects, thereby consolidating his own position. Blake's intuition did not err when he described the two classes of men as "prolific" and "devouring." Just as, biologically, the two modes of adaptation work equally well and are successful in their own way, so too with the typical attitudes. The one achieves its end by a multiplicity of relationships, the other by a monopoly.​

And the result of those evolutionary machinations was that, in Jung's words, introverts tend to be "reserved, ... rather shy people," with "a hesitant, reflective, retiring nature that keeps itself to itself, shrinks from objects, is always slightly on the defensive and prefers to hide behind mistrustful scrutiny"; while extraverts tend to be "open" and "sociable," with "an outgoing, candid, and accommodating nature that adapts easily to a given situation, quickly forms attachments, and ... will often venture forth with careless confidence into unknown situations."

And for Jung, the psychodynamic mechanism behind introversion involved a projection of negative unconscious contents by the introvert onto the people and things of the external world, which in turn caused the introvert to falsely perceive that those people and things were charged with negative energy (libido), which in turn caused the introvert to feel threatened by those people and things, and fear them, and mount a defense which took the form of, among other things, (1) avoidance, and (2) a process of "abstraction" by which the introvert reduced people and things to their abstract qualities, thereby (as Jung explained) "withdrawing libido from the object ... to prevent the object from gaining power over him."

So as Jung saw it, the cognitive turning-inward that "cognitive function" aficionados like to emphasize and the fearful/defensive attitude toward other people that Jung also viewed as part of introversion were both (and equally) second-order results of the introvert's projection of negative unconscious contents onto the people and things of the external world.

In the spoiler is a collection of quotes that should leave no doubt in anybody's mind that, as far as Jung was concerned, whether someone's an extravert or an introvert has quite a lot to do with whether they'll tend to be "social" and "outgoing."

From the Introduction to Psychological Types:

[Extraverts and introverts] are so different and present such a striking contrast that their existence becomes quite obvious even to the layman once it has been pointed out. Everyone knows those reserved, inscrutable, rather shy people who form the strongest possible contrast to the open, sociable, jovial, or at least friendly and approachable characters who are on good terms with everybody, or quarrel with everybody, but always relate to them in some way and in turn are affected by them.​

From Psychological Typology, a 1936 article:

[The introvert] holds aloof from external happenings, does not join in, has a distinct dislike of society as soon as he finds himself among too many people. In a large gathering he feels lonely and lost. ... He is not in the least "with it," and has no love of enthusiastic get-togethers. He is not a good mixer. What he does, he does in his own way, barricading himself against influences from outside. He is apt to appear awkward, often seeming inhibited, and it frequently happens that, by a certain brusqueness of manner, or by his glum unapproachability, or some kind of malapropism, he causes unwitting offence to people. His better qualities he keeps to himself, and generally does everything he can to dissemble them. He is easily mistrustful, self-willed, often suffers from inferiority feelings and for this reason is also envious. His apprehensiveness of the object is not due to fear, but to the fact that it seems to him negative, demanding, overpowering or even menacing. He therefore suspects all kinds of bad motives, has an everlasting fear of making a fool of himself, is usually very touchy and surrounds himself with a barbed wire entanglement so dense and impenetrable that finally he himself would rather do anything than sit behind it. ...

For him self-communings are a pleasure. His own world is a safe harbour, a carefully tended and walled-in garden, closed to the public and hidden from prying eyes. His own company is the best. He feels at home in his world, where the only changes are made by himself. His best work is done with his own resources, on his own initiative, and in his own way. ...

His relations with other people become warm only when safety is guaranteed, and when he can lay aside his defensive distrust. All too often he cannot, and consequently the number of friends and acquaintances is very restricted.​

From Chapter 6 of Psychological Types:

The [introvert's] personality seems inhibited, absorbed or distracted, "sunk in thought," intellectually lopsided, or hypochondriacal. In every case there is only a meagre participation in external life and a distinct tendency to solitude and fear of other people, often compensated by a special love of animals or plants. ...

The [introvert's] sudden explosions [of emotion], alternating with defensiveness and periods of taciturnity, can give the personality such a bizarre appearance that such people become an enigma to everyone in their vicinity. Their absorption in themselves leaves them at a loss when presence of mind or swift action is demanded. Embarrassing situations often arise from which there seems no way out—one reason the more for shunning society. Moreover the occasional outbursts of affect play havoc with their relations to others, and, because of their embarrassment and helplessness, they feel incapable of retrieving the situation. This awkwardness in adapting leads to all sorts of unfortunate experiences which inevitably produce a feeling of inferiority or bitterness, and even of hatred that is readily directed at those who were the actual or supposed authors of their misfortunes. ... They have a peculiar emotional sensitivity, revealing itself to the outside world as a marked timidity and uneasiness in the face of emotional stimuli, and in all situations that might evoke them. This touchiness is directed primarily against the emotional conditions in their environment. All brusque expressions of opinion, emotional declarations, playing on the feelings, etc., are avoided from the start, prompted by the subject's fear of his own emotion, which in turn might start off a reverberating impression he might not be able to master. This sensitivity may easily develop over the years into melancholy, due to the feeling of being cut off from life.​

From the above-mentioned 1936 article:

Extraversion is characterized by interest in the external object, responsiveness, and a ready acceptance of external happenings, a desire to influence and be influenced by events, a need to join in and get "with it," the capacity to endure bustle and noise of every kind, and actually find them enjoyable, constant attention to the surrounding world, the cultivation of friends and acquaintances, none too carefully selected, and finally by the great importance attached to the figure one cuts, and hence by a strong tendency to make a show of oneself. Accordingly, the extravert's philosophy of life and his ethics are as a rule of a highly collective nature with a strong streak of altruism, and his conscience is in large measure dependent on public opinion. Moral misgivings arise mainly when "other people know." His religious convictions are determined, so to speak, by majority vote. ...

The disinclination to submit his own motives to critical examination is very pronounced. He has no secrets he has not long since shared with others. Should something unmentionable nevertheless befall him, he prefers to forget it. Anything that might tarnish the parade of optimism and positivism is avoided. Whatever he thinks, intends, and does is displayed with conviction and warmth. ...

The psychic life of this type of person is enacted, as it were, outside himself, in the environment. He lives in and through others; all self-communings give him the creeps. Dangers lurk there which are better drowned out by noise. If he should ever have a "complex," he finds refuge in the social whirl and allows himself to be assured several times a day that everything is in order. Provided he is not too much of a busybody, too pushing, and too superficial, he can be a distinctly useful member of the community.​
 

Miss spelt

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I've also observed on the INTJ forum that

As an aside, here is the INTJ forum in a nutshell, according to me:

- there is a core clique of regulars who are there to socialize, and only to socialize

- your tone is one thousand times more important than your content

- many of the INTJs are actually ISTJs (Ti-Si perhaps) who don't actually think about what they respond to before responding and are already stubborn and inflexible in their beliefs (as is the wont of the introverted thinking / ISTJ in general)

- strawman arguments and passive avoidance is the status quo

- content is HEAVILY censored (big points for this forum!!) posts are regularly deleted and as such are unavailable for inquisitors (such as yourself, maybe) to examine objectively

- any and all insults result in immediate restriction, not really evaluated on a case-by-case basis

- most of the core members reject the MBTI entirely due to a lack of "proof" but choose to remain ignorant and wilfully blind to discussion pertaining, much to reckful's chagrin I'm sure. . . . . As a reactionary measure, last I checked they began a fad of XXXX typology as an effort to persuade/dissuade and reinforce each other in their unconscious Fe.

- speaking of unconscious Fe . . . . Did I mention Fe yet?

- it's full of ESFJs who think they are ENFPs and you are NOT allowed to argue with them unless you have over 10000 posts. They are allowed to insult you and say horrible things about you because they do it in a very sly and disingenuous fashion that just ekes under the radar. The end result is rather ugly overall.

- it's a dating site for the socially impoverished

:kodama1:

But yeah I'm sure you can learn a bit about inferior sensation, sure. Some members do benefit the place overall and a number of interesting typology threads occasionally emerge. I'm probably severely biased.
 
Last edited:

Miss spelt

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That was totally off topic sorry guys I didn't realize reckful had responded. Last thing I want to do is act like a retard and draw attention away from an otherwise enlightening discussion.

If you need me I'll be eating handfuls of sand beneath the jungle gym.
 

Miss spelt

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As for the idea that the social aspects of E/I were something Myers added to Jung, that's just a ridiculous meme that gets passed around on internet forums and in other bad MBTI sources.

[...]

In the spoiler is a collection of quotes that should leave no doubt in anybody's mind that, as far as Jung was concerned, whether someone's an extravert or an introvert has quite a lot to do with whether they'll tend to be "social" and "outgoing."

From the Introduction to Psychological Types:

[Extraverts and introverts] are so different and present such a striking contrast that their existence becomes quite obvious even to the layman once it has been pointed out. Everyone knows those reserved, inscrutable, rather shy people who form the strongest possible contrast to the open, sociable, jovial, or at least friendly and approachable characters who are on good terms with everybody, or quarrel with everybody, but always relate to them in some way and in turn are affected by them.​

From Psychological Typology, a 1936 article:

[The introvert] holds aloof from external happenings, does not join in, has a distinct dislike of society as soon as he finds himself among too many people. In a large gathering he feels lonely and lost. ... He is not in the least "with it," and has no love of enthusiastic get-togethers. He is not a good mixer. What he does, he does in his own way, barricading himself against influences from outside. He is apt to appear awkward, often seeming inhibited, and it frequently happens that, by a certain brusqueness of manner, or by his glum unapproachability, or some kind of malapropism, he causes unwitting offence to people. His better qualities he keeps to himself, and generally does everything he can to dissemble them. He is easily mistrustful, self-willed, often suffers from inferiority feelings and for this reason is also envious. His apprehensiveness of the object is not due to fear, but to the fact that it seems to him negative, demanding, overpowering or even menacing. He therefore suspects all kinds of bad motives, has an everlasting fear of making a fool of himself, is usually very touchy and surrounds himself with a barbed wire entanglement so dense and impenetrable that finally he himself would rather do anything than sit behind it. ...

For him self-communings are a pleasure. His own world is a safe harbour, a carefully tended and walled-in garden, closed to the public and hidden from prying eyes. His own company is the best. He feels at home in his world, where the only changes are made by himself. His best work is done with his own resources, on his own initiative, and in his own way. ...

His relations with other people become warm only when safety is guaranteed, and when he can lay aside his defensive distrust. All too often he cannot, and consequently the number of friends and acquaintances is very restricted.​

From Chapter 6 of Psychological Types:

The [introvert's] personality seems inhibited, absorbed or distracted, "sunk in thought," intellectually lopsided, or hypochondriacal. In every case there is only a meagre participation in external life and a distinct tendency to solitude and fear of other people, often compensated by a special love of animals or plants. ...

The [introvert's] sudden explosions [of emotion], alternating with defensiveness and periods of taciturnity, can give the personality such a bizarre appearance that such people become an enigma to everyone in their vicinity. Their absorption in themselves leaves them at a loss when presence of mind or swift action is demanded. Embarrassing situations often arise from which there seems no way out—one reason the more for shunning society. Moreover the occasional outbursts of affect play havoc with their relations to others, and, because of their embarrassment and helplessness, they feel incapable of retrieving the situation. This awkwardness in adapting leads to all sorts of unfortunate experiences which inevitably produce a feeling of inferiority or bitterness, and even of hatred that is readily directed at those who were the actual or supposed authors of their misfortunes. ... They have a peculiar emotional sensitivity, revealing itself to the outside world as a marked timidity and uneasiness in the face of emotional stimuli, and in all situations that might evoke them. This touchiness is directed primarily against the emotional conditions in their environment. All brusque expressions of opinion, emotional declarations, playing on the feelings, etc., are avoided from the start, prompted by the subject's fear of his own emotion, which in turn might start off a reverberating impression he might not be able to master. This sensitivity may easily develop over the years into melancholy, due to the feeling of being cut off from life.​

From the above-mentioned 1936 article:

Extraversion is characterized by interest in the external object, responsiveness, and a ready acceptance of external happenings, a desire to influence and be influenced by events, a need to join in and get "with it," the capacity to endure bustle and noise of every kind, and actually find them enjoyable, constant attention to the surrounding world, the cultivation of friends and acquaintances, none too carefully selected, and finally by the great importance attached to the figure one cuts, and hence by a strong tendency to make a show of oneself. Accordingly, the extravert's philosophy of life and his ethics are as a rule of a highly collective nature with a strong streak of altruism, and his conscience is in large measure dependent on public opinion. Moral misgivings arise mainly when "other people know." His religious convictions are determined, so to speak, by majority vote. ...

The disinclination to submit his own motives to critical examination is very pronounced. He has no secrets he has not long since shared with others. Should something unmentionable nevertheless befall him, he prefers to forget it. Anything that might tarnish the parade of optimism and positivism is avoided. Whatever he thinks, intends, and does is displayed with conviction and warmth. ...

The psychic life of this type of person is enacted, as it were, outside himself, in the environment. He lives in and through others; all self-communings give him the creeps. Dangers lurk there which are better drowned out by noise. If he should ever have a "complex," he finds refuge in the social whirl and allows himself to be assured several times a day that everything is in order. Provided he is not too much of a busybody, too pushing, and too superficial, he can be a distinctly useful member of the community.​

I have to take these in bite sized pieces but in particular, thank you for this excerpt as I think it gets to the bottom of the issue, legitimately exposing it as an unruly meme that often gets reiterated without ever being explained.
 

Analyzer

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[...]

In the spoiler is a collection of quotes that should leave no doubt in anybody's mind that, as far as Jung was concerned, whether someone's an extravert or an introvert has quite a lot to do with whether they'll tend to be "social" and "outgoing."

From the Introduction to Psychological Types:
[Extraverts and introverts] are so different and present such a striking contrast that their existence becomes quite obvious even to the layman once it has been pointed out. Everyone knows those reserved, inscrutable, rather shy people who form the strongest possible contrast to the open, sociable, jovial, or at least friendly and approachable characters who are on good terms with everybody, or quarrel with everybody, but always relate to them in some way and in turn are affected by them.​
From Psychological Typology, a 1936 article:
[The introvert] holds aloof from external happenings, does not join in, has a distinct dislike of society as soon as he finds himself among too many people. In a large gathering he feels lonely and lost. ... He is not in the least "with it," and has no love of enthusiastic get-togethers. He is not a good mixer. What he does, he does in his own way, barricading himself against influences from outside. He is apt to appear awkward, often seeming inhibited, and it frequently happens that, by a certain brusqueness of manner, or by his glum unapproachability, or some kind of malapropism, he causes unwitting offence to people. His better qualities he keeps to himself, and generally does everything he can to dissemble them. He is easily mistrustful, self-willed, often suffers from inferiority feelings and for this reason is also envious. His apprehensiveness of the object is not due to fear, but to the fact that it seems to him negative, demanding, overpowering or even menacing. He therefore suspects all kinds of bad motives, has an everlasting fear of making a fool of himself, is usually very touchy and surrounds himself with a barbed wire entanglement so dense and impenetrable that finally he himself would rather do anything than sit behind it. ...

For him self-communings are a pleasure. His own world is a safe harbour, a carefully tended and walled-in garden, closed to the public and hidden from prying eyes. His own company is the best. He feels at home in his world, where the only changes are made by himself. His best work is done with his own resources, on his own initiative, and in his own way. ...

His relations with other people become warm only when safety is guaranteed, and when he can lay aside his defensive distrust. All too often he cannot, and consequently the number of friends and acquaintances is very restricted.​
From Chapter 6 of Psychological Types:
The [introvert's] personality seems inhibited, absorbed or distracted, "sunk in thought," intellectually lopsided, or hypochondriacal. In every case there is only a meagre participation in external life and a distinct tendency to solitude and fear of other people, often compensated by a special love of animals or plants. ...

The [introvert's] sudden explosions [of emotion], alternating with defensiveness and periods of taciturnity, can give the personality such a bizarre appearance that such people become an enigma to everyone in their vicinity. Their absorption in themselves leaves them at a loss when presence of mind or swift action is demanded. Embarrassing situations often arise from which there seems no way out—one reason the more for shunning society. Moreover the occasional outbursts of affect play havoc with their relations to others, and, because of their embarrassment and helplessness, they feel incapable of retrieving the situation. This awkwardness in adapting leads to all sorts of unfortunate experiences which inevitably produce a feeling of inferiority or bitterness, and even of hatred that is readily directed at those who were the actual or supposed authors of their misfortunes. ... They have a peculiar emotional sensitivity, revealing itself to the outside world as a marked timidity and uneasiness in the face of emotional stimuli, and in all situations that might evoke them. This touchiness is directed primarily against the emotional conditions in their environment. All brusque expressions of opinion, emotional declarations, playing on the feelings, etc., are avoided from the start, prompted by the subject's fear of his own emotion, which in turn might start off a reverberating impression he might not be able to master. This sensitivity may easily develop over the years into melancholy, due to the feeling of being cut off from life.​
From the above-mentioned 1936 article:
Extraversion is characterized by interest in the external object, responsiveness, and a ready acceptance of external happenings, a desire to influence and be influenced by events, a need to join in and get "with it," the capacity to endure bustle and noise of every kind, and actually find them enjoyable, constant attention to the surrounding world, the cultivation of friends and acquaintances, none too carefully selected, and finally by the great importance attached to the figure one cuts, and hence by a strong tendency to make a show of oneself. Accordingly, the extravert's philosophy of life and his ethics are as a rule of a highly collective nature with a strong streak of altruism, and his conscience is in large measure dependent on public opinion. Moral misgivings arise mainly when "other people know." His religious convictions are determined, so to speak, by majority vote. ...

The disinclination to submit his own motives to critical examination is very pronounced. He has no secrets he has not long since shared with others. Should something unmentionable nevertheless befall him, he prefers to forget it. Anything that might tarnish the parade of optimism and positivism is avoided. Whatever he thinks, intends, and does is displayed with conviction and warmth. ...

The psychic life of this type of person is enacted, as it were, outside himself, in the environment. He lives in and through others; all self-communings give him the creeps. Dangers lurk there which are better drowned out by noise. If he should ever have a "complex," he finds refuge in the social whirl and allows himself to be assured several times a day that everything is in order. Provided he is not too much of a busybody, too pushing, and too superficial, he can be a distinctly useful member of the community.​

This is key right here.
 

Inquisitor

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Edited

You're basically just asking me to keep repeating myself, and can't have read my first post even once with much care.

I read every line.

You say I'm putting together type dynamics with MBTI, but as I emphasized at the end of my first post, it's talking about what Jung's function model was. I don't endorse any function model, because I agree with Reynierse that the functions are a "category mistake."

But getting back to what Jung thought...

You ask why I'm "assuming that the aux goes from unconscious to conscious?" Well, how about because Jung specifically referred to the dom and aux as the "conscious functions" and the third and fourth functions as the "unconscious functions," both in Psychological Types and 30 years later, and I pointed that out in my first post.

I see what you are getting at. My response is below.

I don't disagree that E/I and J/P are independent personality dimensions. The issue under discussion is whether Jung thought that someone would either be extraverted in their (conscious) judgments and introverted in their (conscious) perceptions or vice versa — and as I noted in both my first post and my last post, that's glaringly inconsistent with what he said in that 1923 lecture that he later added to the Collected Works edition of Psychological Types.

Here's my gripe with all of this. Would you agree that the J/P dichotomy on MBTI relates more to objective reality? Looking at the questions on the test, I believe that's what is emphasized. Even the questions on "what do you value more?" relate to objective possibilities.

When Jung described P-doms and J-doms as you put it, this too related more to the objective realm. When we interact with another person, we only see their externals (behavior, speech, appearance, etc.) The subjective realm is entirely hidden, and yet this is where the dominant judging/perceiving function operates for an introvert. Even though an introverted thinker (going with the standard Ti here) may be a "hodgepodge of accidentals," in his external/observable life, his inner subjective life may be all about "fastening the fetters of reason on everything living and strangling it with judgments." IOW, he may be striving for ruthless inner/subjective control by making continuous judgments concerning the validity of his own subjective ideas/theories etc. That's why I think the Ti-Ne model still holds, or in your case, if you really want Ti-Ni. We have to ask where most of the psychic energy gets channeled, and for an INTP (yours truly), I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am never comfortable with X being "both this and that." It's always one or the other for me. I cannot bear to leave an unresolved idea up to ambiguity. (That's why I'm having this conversation with you.) I need closure.

I realize that last part was not very objective at all. But I think you can still appreciate the main idea, which is that J/P in both the MBTI and Jung's descriptions deal mostly with externally observable traits. To me it makes perfect sense that a Ti dom would be ruthlessly seeking out inner order in his own theories/ideas, and a Te dom external order in terms of how he organizes his life. The former would necessarily neglect externals, and therefore appear like a P, while the latter would not really care about creating perfectly refined theories/ideas, and appear like a J in their behavior. Inwardly, however, a Te dom might indeed look like a P, if we could ever see what was going on in there, which we unfortunately have not developed the technology to do yet. :)

I guess I would like to see a greater acknowledgement of the fact that one can be (subjectively J and objectively P) or (objectively J and subjectively P).

As for the idea that the social aspects of E/I were something Myers added to Jung, that's just a ridiculous meme that gets passed around on internet forums and in other bad MBTI sources.

Jung viewed extraversion/introversion as the most fundamental division underlying his types, and spent more of Psychological Types talking about the personality characteristics he thought extraverts tended to have in common and introverts tended to have in common than he spent talking about all eight of the functions put together.

Jung believed that the ultimate reason there were extraverts and introverts in the first place was that extraversion and introversion represented two competing evolutionary strategies, each successful in its own way. Here's how he described them:

There are in nature two fundamentally different modes of adaptation which ensure the continued existence of the living organism. The one consists of a high rate of fertility, with low powers of defense and short duration of life for the single individual; the other consists in equipping the individual with numerous means of self-preservation plus a low fertility rate. This biological difference, it seems to me, is not merely analogous to, but the actual foundation of, our two psychological modes of adaptation. I must content myself with this broad hint. It is sufficient to note that the peculiar nature of the extravert constantly urges him to expend and propagate himself in every way, while the tendency of the introvert is to defend himself against all demands from outside, to conserve his energy by withdrawing it from objects, thereby consolidating his own position. Blake's intuition did not err when he described the two classes of men as "prolific" and "devouring." Just as, biologically, the two modes of adaptation work equally well and are successful in their own way, so too with the typical attitudes. The one achieves its end by a multiplicity of relationships, the other by a monopoly.​

And the result of those evolutionary machinations was that, in Jung's words, introverts tend to be "reserved, ... rather shy people," with "a hesitant, reflective, retiring nature that keeps itself to itself, shrinks from objects, is always slightly on the defensive and prefers to hide behind mistrustful scrutiny"; while extraverts tend to be "open" and "sociable," with "an outgoing, candid, and accommodating nature that adapts easily to a given situation, quickly forms attachments, and ... will often venture forth with careless confidence into unknown situations."

And for Jung, the psychodynamic mechanism behind introversion involved a projection of negative unconscious contents by the introvert onto the people and things of the external world, which in turn caused the introvert to falsely perceive that those people and things were charged with negative energy (libido), which in turn caused the introvert to feel threatened by those people and things, and fear them, and mount a defense which took the form of, among other things, (1) avoidance, and (2) a process of "abstraction" by which the introvert reduced people and things to their abstract qualities, thereby (as Jung explained) "withdrawing libido from the object ... to prevent the object from gaining power over him."

So as Jung saw it, the cognitive turning-inward that "cognitive function" aficionados like to emphasize and the fearful/defensive attitude toward other people that Jung also viewed as part of introversion were both (and equally) second-order results of the introvert's projection of negative unconscious contents onto the people and things of the external world.

In the spoiler is a collection of quotes that should leave no doubt in anybody's mind that, as far as Jung was concerned, whether someone's an extravert or an introvert has quite a lot to do with whether they'll tend to be "social" and "outgoing."

From the Introduction to Psychological Types:

[Extraverts and introverts] are so different and present such a striking contrast that their existence becomes quite obvious even to the layman once it has been pointed out. Everyone knows those reserved, inscrutable, rather shy people who form the strongest possible contrast to the open, sociable, jovial, or at least friendly and approachable characters who are on good terms with everybody, or quarrel with everybody, but always relate to them in some way and in turn are affected by them.​

From Psychological Typology, a 1936 article:

[The introvert] holds aloof from external happenings, does not join in, has a distinct dislike of society as soon as he finds himself among too many people. In a large gathering he feels lonely and lost. ... He is not in the least "with it," and has no love of enthusiastic get-togethers. He is not a good mixer. What he does, he does in his own way, barricading himself against influences from outside. He is apt to appear awkward, often seeming inhibited, and it frequently happens that, by a certain brusqueness of manner, or by his glum unapproachability, or some kind of malapropism, he causes unwitting offence to people. His better qualities he keeps to himself, and generally does everything he can to dissemble them. He is easily mistrustful, self-willed, often suffers from inferiority feelings and for this reason is also envious. His apprehensiveness of the object is not due to fear, but to the fact that it seems to him negative, demanding, overpowering or even menacing. He therefore suspects all kinds of bad motives, has an everlasting fear of making a fool of himself, is usually very touchy and surrounds himself with a barbed wire entanglement so dense and impenetrable that finally he himself would rather do anything than sit behind it. ...

For him self-communings are a pleasure. His own world is a safe harbour, a carefully tended and walled-in garden, closed to the public and hidden from prying eyes. His own company is the best. He feels at home in his world, where the only changes are made by himself. His best work is done with his own resources, on his own initiative, and in his own way. ...

His relations with other people become warm only when safety is guaranteed, and when he can lay aside his defensive distrust. All too often he cannot, and consequently the number of friends and acquaintances is very restricted.​

From Chapter 6 of Psychological Types:

The [introvert's] personality seems inhibited, absorbed or distracted, "sunk in thought," intellectually lopsided, or hypochondriacal. In every case there is only a meagre participation in external life and a distinct tendency to solitude and fear of other people, often compensated by a special love of animals or plants. ...

The [introvert's] sudden explosions [of emotion], alternating with defensiveness and periods of taciturnity, can give the personality such a bizarre appearance that such people become an enigma to everyone in their vicinity. Their absorption in themselves leaves them at a loss when presence of mind or swift action is demanded. Embarrassing situations often arise from which there seems no way out—one reason the more for shunning society. Moreover the occasional outbursts of affect play havoc with their relations to others, and, because of their embarrassment and helplessness, they feel incapable of retrieving the situation. This awkwardness in adapting leads to all sorts of unfortunate experiences which inevitably produce a feeling of inferiority or bitterness, and even of hatred that is readily directed at those who were the actual or supposed authors of their misfortunes. ... They have a peculiar emotional sensitivity, revealing itself to the outside world as a marked timidity and uneasiness in the face of emotional stimuli, and in all situations that might evoke them. This touchiness is directed primarily against the emotional conditions in their environment. All brusque expressions of opinion, emotional declarations, playing on the feelings, etc., are avoided from the start, prompted by the subject's fear of his own emotion, which in turn might start off a reverberating impression he might not be able to master. This sensitivity may easily develop over the years into melancholy, due to the feeling of being cut off from life.​

From the above-mentioned 1936 article:

Extraversion is characterized by interest in the external object, responsiveness, and a ready acceptance of external happenings, a desire to influence and be influenced by events, a need to join in and get "with it," the capacity to endure bustle and noise of every kind, and actually find them enjoyable, constant attention to the surrounding world, the cultivation of friends and acquaintances, none too carefully selected, and finally by the great importance attached to the figure one cuts, and hence by a strong tendency to make a show of oneself. Accordingly, the extravert's philosophy of life and his ethics are as a rule of a highly collective nature with a strong streak of altruism, and his conscience is in large measure dependent on public opinion. Moral misgivings arise mainly when "other people know." His religious convictions are determined, so to speak, by majority vote. ...

The disinclination to submit his own motives to critical examination is very pronounced. He has no secrets he has not long since shared with others. Should something unmentionable nevertheless befall him, he prefers to forget it. Anything that might tarnish the parade of optimism and positivism is avoided. Whatever he thinks, intends, and does is displayed with conviction and warmth. ...

The psychic life of this type of person is enacted, as it were, outside himself, in the environment. He lives in and through others; all self-communings give him the creeps. Dangers lurk there which are better drowned out by noise. If he should ever have a "complex," he finds refuge in the social whirl and allows himself to be assured several times a day that everything is in order. Provided he is not too much of a busybody, too pushing, and too superficial, he can be a distinctly useful member of the community.​

I said this in my earlier post:

I/E on MBTI is completely different from Jung's ideas with the same labels.

What I meant by "Jung's ideas" were his definitions of introversion and extraversion, not the caricatures, which are indirect descriptions. Both Jung and Myers attempted to elucidate traits these types have in common to make their theories more understandable. For Myers it makes testing easier. But at root, it's not an ironclad law by any measure. People often mistype themselves. The only thing that holds true for absolutely everyone is that one type is directed more towards the subject and the other the object. That does not change. I would bet heavily that there is no on this planet that values both the subjective and objective equally, but I bet there are loads of people who have an equal number of traits from both categories as described by Jung/Myers and tested for by MBTI. Using the strict definition of introversion as defined by Jung, it can actually be easier in some senses to type oneself accurately. The other traits are hit-or-miss, ie not universal.
 

Inquisitor

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As an aside, here is the INTJ forum in a nutshell, according to me:

- there is a core clique of regulars who are there to socialize, and only to socialize

- your tone is one thousand times more important than your content

- many of the INTJs are actually ISTJs (Ti-Si perhaps) who don't actually think about what they respond to before responding and are already stubborn and inflexible in their beliefs (as is the wont of the introverted thinking / ISTJ in general)

- strawman arguments and passive avoidance is the status quo

- content is HEAVILY censored (big points for this forum!!) posts are regularly deleted and as such are unavailable for inquisitors (such as yourself, maybe) to examine objectively

- any and all insults result in immediate restriction, not really evaluated on a case-by-case basis

- most of the core members reject the MBTI entirely due to a lack of "proof" but choose to remain ignorant and wilfully blind to discussion pertaining, much to reckful's chagrin I'm sure. . . . . As a reactionary measure, last I checked they began a fad of XXXX typology as an effort to persuade/dissuade and reinforce each other in their unconscious Fe.

- speaking of unconscious Fe . . . . Did I mention Fe yet?

- it's full of ESFJs who think they are ENFPs and you are NOT allowed to argue with them unless you have over 10000 posts. They are allowed to insult you and say horrible things about you because they do it in a very sly and disingenuous fashion that just ekes under the radar. The end result is rather ugly overall.

- it's a dating site for the socially impoverished

:kodama1:

But yeah I'm sure you can learn a bit about inferior sensation, sure. Some members do benefit the place overall and a number of interesting typology threads occasionally emerge. I'm probably severely biased.

Don't know enough to comment about INTJ forum as a whole. I got that tidbit on Se from a long-time member who also mentioned several other ways it can manifest (don't recall at the moment what those were).
 

ygnextend

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not a theory just an observation>

JACK DORSEY (ONE OF THE FOUNDERS OF TWIITER) IS HIGHLY INTROVERTED.
STARTED TWITTER TO REDUCE THE FEELING OF LONELINESS IN THE WORLD.
HE HAS ADMITTED THAT HE CANT SPEAK TO PEOPLE EYE TO EYE YET CAN DESIGN PRODUCTS THAT EFFECTS MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.
KNOWN FOR RUTHLESSNESS REGARDING BUSINESS PRACTICES.
HE TAKES PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION HERE IN THE BAY AREA<WEIRD INTP BILLIONAIRE SHIT>.
HE USE TO BE PUNK AND QUOTES THE RAMONES OFTEN.
HE SEEMS A-SEXUAL OR THE OTHER EXTREME=LIKES TO GO TO SEX CLUBS...INTP STYLE.
HIS VOICE IS HOLLOW. HE ONLY GETS EXCITED WHEN HE SPEAKS ABOUT GOING TO A COFFEE SHOP IN SAN FRANCISCO TO DISCUSS BUSINESS GOALS WITH OTHER CAPTAINS OF TECH INDUSTRY.
HAS A SENSITIVITY OF SOUND AND IS OBESSED WITH OTHERS VOICES

ALL IN ALL= I UNDERSTAND WHERE HE IS COMING FROM.
 

Ex-User (8886)

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You should read about socionics. There INTPs have Ni-Te-Si-Fe

there is not good website in english about socionics, but maybe you find something;
it's polish-ukrainian theory, so there is a lot of materials in my language, if you want I can translate some.
 
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