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What is you Code?

Chad

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So here my Code of Ethics which I try to fallow and I am nearly 90-95% successful.

However you should know that these are all personal and for the most part I didn't expect anyone else to fallow my personal code (unless of course someone breaking my code happen to effect me then I do get offended.)

So here we go. I am sure I will add more as I realize them later on so here the starter things that come to mind right away.

I do not intentionally harm (Harm in this context ranges form mild emotional or physical harm up to death, dismemberment and torture.) others or myself for any reason other then self preservation or to protect those closest to me (like 10 people tops)
---This code is a bit tricky because the intentional part is the most important part. I have hurt people in the past but to intentionally hurt them is going to far for me. The other things that complicates this code is the fact that I am so emotionally withdrawn at times that I don't realize my actions are causing emotional damage until its gone too far. I may regret these times however, I didn't intentionally do emotional harm so it still counts as fallowing the code.

I don't still things that anyone will miss.
--The classifier "Will Miss" is important because I have been known to pick up expensiveness lost things form time to time and keep them.

I don't cheat in an academic setting.
--I clarify academic setting because in my labor job I constantly skip steps and fudge numbers to keep form having to do more work. I don't think this is a good thing but it technically doesn't break my code.

I do everything (that I can think of) in my power to keep my word.
--I have to clarify "that I can think of" and "in my power" because I have broken my word before because I couldn't figure out a way to keep my word. Like not being able to pay my parents back when they helped me out in college because I didn't have a good enough job and I couldn't find one. These suck but I realize and so do my parents that I did do everything in my power to pay them back and now that I have a better job I am paying them back slowly.

I do not lie intentionally.
--Well obviously this isn't true. This is one area were I could still use some improvement on. I think I lie less then the average person however I still lie sometimes if I believe that telling the truth will get me into more trouble and I can't avoid the conversion. (Avoiding conversions is one tool that I use often to hide form facts that will lead to uncomfortable emotions in myself or others or end up in a consequence were I lose something important to me.) I believe Avoiding topics while not honest is different then lie about it. However, my code does often surpass my uncomfortableness and I have told the truth when it hurt several times.

I keep my sexuality between me and my wife alone.
--This is true in one since. I have never and never wish to cheat on my wife. On the other hand I regret having one and a half other sexual partner before my wife and I got together. I also fantasize to porn too much and I am trying to control this as it is against my code but a hard habit to break.

I don't smoke anything (I don't even breath in smoke if I can help it)
--This is my easiest code to keep because I can't stand being around any smoke let alone breathing it in directly (I can only assume as I have never tried it)

I don't drink Ethanol.
--I have tried it after intense pressure and I don't care fore it. The one acceptation I made was drinking one sip of Champlain at my good friends wedding because it was part of the toast. We had sparkling grape juice at my wedding and it tasted much better.

I don't take drugs (Caffeine is the exception) with out serious medical need.
--basically I only take drug directly administered by a doctor or acetaminophen if I am lots of pain. I would take a prescription if it was necessary for continued life but I wouldn't be happy about it. (I.E. self preservation is almost always a valid exception.)

I don't gamble.
--This is tied directly to my own self preservation. basically I love games, therefore if I started playing a gambling game and I was having fun I could easily blow all the money I would ever see in a life time with out thinking twice about it.

Some of my reasoning for being so strict with my self about some of these things is that I know that both of my biological parents were hard core alcoholics and drug addicts and I personally seen the addictive tendencies in myself. Therefore I must (to preserve my future well being) stay away form addictive habits. However, having such a strong code has came in handy through out my life due to that fact that most of these things are very unappealing to me because of my engrained code of ethics.

P.S.
I don't expect you to have a code as stick or even close to mine I am just wondering what your code or principles may be and why you chose some codes and not other ones.
Please don't derail this thread by bashing my code. It will be a waste of both of our time because this are deeply engrained rules that don't have to fallow logic for me. Thank you.
 

Chad

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Could a mode please change the title of this thread.

I didn't realize I wrote it wrong.

It should read.
"What is your Code?"

Thanks for the help.
 

Chad

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From my research on INTP I found that most place seem to assume that INtP have deep seated Principles or Codes. This was one of the characteristics that I found oddly similar to my own personality. Are there another self proclaimed INTPs on this site that relate to that characteristic?
 

redbaron

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I have no parents; I make the heavens and earth my parents
I have no home; I make awareness my home
I have no life or death; I make the tides of breathing my life and death
I have no divine power; I make honesty my divine power
I have no means; I make understanding my means
I have no magic secrets; I make character my magic secret
I have no body; I make endurance my body
I have no eyes; I make the flash of lightening my eyes
I have no ears; I make sensibility my ears
I have no limbs; I make my promptness my limbs
I have no strategy; I make 'unshadowed by thought' my strategy
I have no designs; I make 'seizing opportunity by the forelock' my design
I have no miracles; I make right action my miracles
I have no principle; I make adaptability to all circumstances my principle
I have no tactics; I make emptiness and fullness my tactics
I have no talents; I make ready wit my talent
I have no friends; I make my mind my friend
I have no enemy; I make carelessness my enemy
I have no armor; I make benevolence and righteousness my armor
I have no castle; I make immovable-mind my castle
I have no sword; I make absence of self my sword
 

Cherry Cola

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Ok before I answer this "I regret having one and a half other sexual partner" care to elaborate just a little bit? :P

I go by consequentialism, I find that it smooths thing out and makes everyone happier in the end. I believe it works much better as a personal moral philosophy than a political one.

Hence if necessary I do lie, however I am honest with the people I am close to. The most common way that I lie is not by stating things that are directly untrue, it's subtle things, wordings, behaviour, faked emotions.

In my opinion the academic system can go fuck itself. If I can cheat then I will. The school is designed for the avg kid ( in favour of E (forcing group work) and S (rote learning) traits) and pays no heed to those that deviate from social standards whether it be by retardation or giftedness or eccentricity. I am not the avg kid and the school system sucked for me. In upper secondary school for instance, the entire first year was a waste of time that left me completely disinterested in going there. I could've passed all but perhaps the top two English courses (which weren't obligatory anyway) in my first year. Why wasn't I encouraged to do so? Instead I got bored and skipped classes. Stupid? Yes, definitely, but teens are stupid, that's why they should be guided. Guidance isn't making them sit through shit that's pointless where the only thing.

Admittedly things get better at a higher level though. But compulsory school... if you aren't retarded then cheat away.

I try to keep my word, I'm not sure how good I am at it compared to other people, but I think I need to work on it a bit.

I smoke cigarettes, trying to quit atm, however I do thoroughly enjoy the sensualist aspect of it as well being able to leave social gatherings to go out and smoke alone or with one or two other people.

Ethanol is a shit drug for the dark ages that speaks to the lowest, most decrepit, and primitive aspects of mankind. It can be nice to be a happy pig sometimes, but I rarely drink.

Marijuana on the other hand is relaxing and boosts creativity, it's major downside being the passivising effect it has on you as you enter contemplation, which in combination with it's illegal status in most places results in individuals who hide themselves away and live passive half lives blazin on in semi-apathy.
Atm I am fairly confident I will not fall into that trap; however, hence I see no problem with lighting up now and then.

I don't regret taking the hallucinogenics that I have either, they were quite mind expanding experiences which I believe have left me with a better grasp of myself and the world around me; what my purpose is, what I want to do with my life etc. Both hallucinogenics and marijuana have improved my drawing and painting skills as well as given me much more to paint and a more solid distinct style.

I don't gamble either, there are better ways to satisfy that part of the human psyche.

I consider myself a decent person (though that's a recent development).
 

Cherry Cola

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Red, you don't have a code so much as a poem which is ultimately meaningless.

My code; Reasoning.

Ok but what do you use your reasoning for then? Because reason is all nice and dandy but reason does contain any purpose, it doesn't strive for anything. Hence reason isn't a moral code.
 

Hadoblado

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If a code is rational, then being rational should be enough. If a code is irrational, then it's not worth having. Ergo, codes are redundant or counterproductive.
 

Cherry Cola

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Yes that neat and tidy logic which says absolutely nothing about a persons moral code.
 

Chad

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Ok but what do you use your reasoning for then? Because reason is all nice and dandy but reason does contain any purpose, it doesn't strive for anything. Hence reason isn't a moral code.

Not to speak anyone but maybe he doesn't have a moral code.

I think my code could be classified as a moral code however, maybe his code is a logic code and morals are not considered. Or maybe I'm wrong its just an idea.

I appreciated you using the term "Ethanol" instead of "Alcohol" the Chemist in me screams. Alcohol is the general term of any carbon compound with a OH group. Ethanol is C2H5OH, it is an alcohol but not really Alcohol in general.

Funny fact Water is basically an Alcohol with out carbon. And it is possible to reach the drunken state with water however by that stage you body would have many other issues to worry about besides being drunk.
 

Cherry Cola

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Funny fact Water is basically an Alcohol with out carbon. And it is possible to reach the drunken state with water however by that stage you body would have many other issues to worry about besides being drunk.

Haha yeah, didn't people die when they had water drinking contests during the xbox360 release? The stupidity of those arrangers...
 

Chad

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Haha yeah, didn't people die when they had water drinking contests during the xbox360 release? The stupidity of those arrangers...

Yes, sorry I derailed my own thread.

Anyway back to Codes.

I find it interesting that some of you have such a high Ti that codes seem redundant to you. Personally, I think My Ne is stronger then a lot of others on here.
 

Hadoblado

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Yes that neat and tidy logic which says absolutely nothing about a persons moral code.

Chad is right. Similar to your consequentialism, I think about each action in terms of outcomes. I guess I just don't use the label because I don't think about it in terms of being a code. You say you adhere to a code that basically allows you to do anything you want (as wanting is a product of foreseeable consequence), I just say I do whatever I want.
 

Cherry Cola

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Meh my moral code is much more expansive and systematic, the stuff I wrote here is a tiny slice, it certainly does not allow me to do whatever I want :S

and consequantialism presupposes a desirable consequence

in the reasoning behind what is desirable is the code or we you want to call it
 

Hadoblado

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If you follow a code it is because you want to. If you didn't want to, you simply wouldn't.
 

redbaron

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In my opinion the academic system can go fuck itself. If I can cheat then I will. The school is designed for the avg kid

I agree loosely that the academic system can go fuck itself. Though I don't think cheating is okay.

Taking this to the extreme maybe, but it seems to me like there's a lot of people in society who are proud of getting away with cheating, manipulating and generally just fucking people over. It can be monetarily, emotionally, physically...whatever.

Which to me, is a manifestation of that, 'fuck it' attitude that so many people have.

Essentially what annoys me is that this 'fuck it' attitude most commonly manifests as pure defiance. People knowingly exploit holes in a system (and by extension, other people) because they think the system is flawed - and therefore justifies the exploitation.

Basically instead of making an effort to improve the system, they just exploit it - causing more damage to the system. It's like monkey-see monkey-do - one person gets away with cheating, so everyone starts doing it. This sort of justification is one I see all the time as well: "But everyone else is doing it!"

It's the ultimate in sheep behavior, and everyone just starts on this path of manipulating wherever they can - fucking over other people as well as themselves in the process.
 

Cherry Cola

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@had: uuuh yes? I'm not sure what you're getting at

feels like youre stuck on some semantic detail
 

Hadoblado

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@Cherry Cola
It's no biggie. Please, call me Hado.

@Redbaron
I wouldn't call it sheeping so much as wolfing (wolves being predominantly a pack animal that exploits the resources around it to the detriment of those 'resources').

When you see a system is broken, you can stick with it and try and improve it, or you can work against it hoping it will be replaced. I don't think one strategy is inherently better that the other, though I agree that many people decide to work against the system for personal gain rather than the principles they spout (I'm one of them ;)).

I think legitimate revolutionaries are defined by their understanding of the good that a system does, but also the drive to make it better, even if that means destroying it and starting anew. Shoplifting to stick it to the man doesn't count.
 

Chad

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With the whole cheating thing my code is based more on pride then logic.

Academia is my first love. Cheating in school would be like cheating on my wife. Unthinkable.

I really don't get why so many people on here hate school. I didn't always like the people but school honestly was my escape. Its were I learned to think and develop my analytical skills. Maybe it just because I was one of the achievers in my school. I didn't get strait A's but I rarely got below a B on anything and I never had to study not even in college.
 

Chad

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Ya, She knows this.

My Ti is what I live for she is second she accepts it.
 

Hadoblado

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I'm not sure that's Ti. It's not that you're prioritising logic, it's that you're prioritising your accomplishment. You need to achieve and know that you did it without resorting to underhanded tactics.

Interesting that you can be so open about your priorities.
 

Chad

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I'm not sure that's Ti. It's not that you're prioritising logic, it's that you're prioritising your accomplishment. You need to achieve and know that you did it without resorting to underhanded tactics.

Interesting that you can be so open about your priorities.


What I was saying is that analyzation is my passion. That is the reason I loved school. I really don't know if this is an accomplishment persay.

Ti is not logic in inward thinking. Inward thinking can lead to logical thinking but they are not exactly exclusive.

Analyzation is the term I like to use because it explains what I do. I analyze everything, everything is a question and everything is a puzzle to be solved. I try to solve these puzzles logically however, you and others see me less then logical. This is the Ti that I am referring too.
 

Hadoblado

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A lot of people have been doing that to me recently. It's an amalgamation of my first and last names, but even people I've known for 20 years have started calling me "Habidopablodicus" and other bastardisations, eventually settling on "Pabs",which is:
- an abbreviation
- of a deliberate elongation
- of a deliberate muddling
- of an abbreviation
- of an amalgamation
- of an abbreviation
- of my actual name

I've never worked that out on paper before. Nicknames are stupid. There isn't even a P in my actual name!
 

SpaceYeti

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Ok but what do you use your reasoning for then? Because reason is all nice and dandy but reason does contain any purpose, it doesn't strive for anything. Hence reason isn't a moral code.
Mostly I didn't have time for a list, earlier.

Honesty; I like to differentiate between "honesty" and "telling the truth". If you tell the truth, you can include facts and reasoning which are all true, yet communicate a concept different from what's true. Honesty, on the other hand, is the attempt at communicating what's actually true such that the person you're communicating with understands that truth. I'm not okay with wording the truth a certain way so that the person you're telling it to takes a false or incomplete concept from it. However, this also presumes a reasonable audience who will use the information properly. For example, I'm okay with telling an incomplete story if it's to protect someone from an unfair punishment, especially if my job is to protect that person.

Integrity; Integrity is sort of like honesty, except with yourself as the subject, so... a more specific sort of honesty, I suppose. You admit when you make mistakes, when you're wrong, and what your shortcomings are. It doesn't matter who it is you admit this stuff to, it can be admitting it to yourself as well as to others. Perhaps a better name for this would be 'Humility'. You're imperfect. Admit it, and deal with it proportionally.

These two (arguably one) are pretty much the foundation of all virtues; Respect, responsibility, temperance, bravery, etc.
 

Chad

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Well, I do have Si. Thinks for noticing.

But loving analysis is Ti, and this love for analysis is why I chose to have this particular code.
 

Cognisant

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A code of any kind demands consistency and I no longer see that quality in myself, I adapt to context on a situation by situation basis.

Funny fact Water is basically an Alcohol with out carbon.
Huh, well I'm off to troll some recovering alcoholics.
 

RaBind

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Imo the most pure philosophy to follow would be Humanitarianism. It has flaws, such as why look out for one of the most destructive species on the face of the planet, in all of it's history? But I think if you actually still haven't lost hope in humanity, and still identify yourself with this species, than as a collective the elimination of human suffering should be a goal that should be strived for.
It's not a code I follow as an individual, as I use different types of judgements depending on the scenario.
 

Twn

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I'm not a complicated person, so I have pretty loose morals.

1) Don't limit my own potential.

2) Don't limit anyone else's potential.

They are pretty all encompassing.
 

Chad

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I was contemplating the statements several of you have made.

That is "I do what I want."

Now, you may believe this is a solid code to live by but the problem is two fold from what I can tell

1)It is possible to want to do two apposing actions. Both actions may have benefits that are different but relatively equal in there important to your wants.

In which case how to do you chose what option to go with?

2)All ways choosing what you want is logically short sighted. In reality the things we want are often not worth the effort in the long run.

I could make the case that I want one million dollar (the truth is I do actually want this). If I see one million dollars I take it because I want it by your reason I should take it.

However, there is a good chance that anyone missing one million dollars will want it back.
Making it likely that in the best case scenario I could have the money taken back form me and be accused of theft. Or in the worst case scenario I could be hunted down and killed/physically hurt for that kind of money. Therefore even though I want one million dollars it is not in my best interest to take it.
 

QuickTwist

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I don't have a code as much as I have a belief system of what represents my morals.

If I were to have a code it would look something like this:

Don't try to get people to do/think what is not best for them.

Be generous to the point that it doesn't take away from what is rational for you to have.

Live by integrity.

Work hard to achieve your goals.

Don't take anything from someone that they need more than you.
 

Breeze

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I keep it simple. I treat others how I would like to be treated, I live my life in a grateful way and in return I try to cheer everyone up. Although I judge the shit out of people I don't know completely from their actions and looks I always keep in mind that all of our circumstances in life are different.

Although I've never intentionally hurt or inconvenienced those who don't deserved it if someone is rude or spiteful I do return the gesture in spades to prove a point. Apart from that I lead my life trying to be the change I wish to see in the world and lead by example.
 

Architect

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Very simple; it all comes down to the Golden Rule. I treat others as I expect to be treated. I believe this is the basis of all morality and it should be.

Unfortunately this leads to an asymmetry, others do not treat me with the consideration I give them. For example, I expect to be given the independence to be my own person. I don't want to be sold on anything. If you want me to do something (like go out for the night or go on a trip) then include me in the planning and let me decide if it is something I want to do. This is what I extend to others, but birth family members take advantage IMO. For example, they'll plan a trip without consulting me, then try and sell me on the idea of going. All wrong ... I dig in my heels and refuse, and they seem unable to understand the dynamic of what is going on. It's fundamentally narcissistic in my opinion.

This occurs between S's (my family) and N's (myself) most frequently. I understand the dynamic too - from their viewpoint why aren't I just going with the flow and doing what the groups wants. They're group thinkers, so if the group wants to do X then it is just a nice group activity. I understand that, and why it appeals to them. Again, unfortunately they are blind to MBTI and why I can't do that. If they did they'd know that all they need to do is include me more in the planning.
 

TimeAsylums

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Very simple; it all comes down to the Golden Rule. I treat others as I expect to be treated. I believe this is the basis of all morality and it should be.
This is a flawed ideology. What if someone desires/wants to be treated like shit? What if they enjoy pain? So while you treat them "nicely" they treat you like shit and neither of you are reciprocated. "Expecting" the same level of reciprocation leads to downfall, ultimately. You expect people to have the same level of respect for you that you yourself have of them - not a chance. Expecting things from others is almost pompous in some/most cases. One expects no one to talk to him because he is not talking to others, yet another is expecting others to interact with him because he is interacting with others.

People's expectations clash.
 
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I have no parents; I make the heavens and earth my parents
I have no home; I make awareness my home
I have no life or death; I make the tides of breathing my life and death
I have no divine power; I make honesty my divine power
I have no means; I make understanding my means
I have no magic secrets; I make character my magic secret
I have no body; I make endurance my body
I have no eyes; I make the flash of lightening my eyes
I have no ears; I make sensibility my ears
I have no limbs; I make my promptness my limbs
I have no strategy; I make 'unshadowed by thought' my strategy
I have no designs; I make 'seizing opportunity by the forelock' my design
I have no miracles; I make right action my miracles
I have no principle; I make adaptability to all circumstances my principle
I have no tactics; I make emptiness and fullness my tactics
I have no talents; I make ready wit my talent
I have no friends; I make my mind my friend
I have no enemy; I make carelessness my enemy
I have no armor; I make benevolence and righteousness my armor
I have no castle; I make immovable-mind my castle
I have no sword; I make absence of self my sword

Kick Ass
 

ummidk

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Yes that neat and tidy logic which says absolutely nothing about a persons moral code.

Other than saying they have a justifable one, which is probably the first step to your "code" being worth a damn. A code which, doesn't have to be explicit.



That being said...the Golden rule is pretty close to my "moral code"
 

TimeAsylums

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That being said...the Golden rule is pretty close to my "moral code"

Again, it is a flawed ideology. People expect others to treat them the exact same way that they treat others. The problem is, everyone has different expectations. So you treat X with a certain level of respect, well x treats everyone with a lower level of respect. Should he come up to meet your standards and expectations? Should you go down to meet his? This is certain for every single human, and their special little snowflakes, different expectations exist, so who is to bow down to whose expectations?

All of you that abide by it are destined to have failings in your expectations with other people constantly because not everyone has the same expectation and it is difficult to meet both of the parties' expectations.

"But, I'm being so nice and considerate to him! Why isn't he reciprocating??"

Why would one assume that the other desires such consideration or reciprocation? Maybe he expects different levels of whatever you expect.

"I am nice and considerate of everyone's thoughts and feelings! Therefore (I expect) they should also reciprocate the same to me!"

What the hell? Good luck with that!

All this being said, I do consider everyone's thoughts and feelings but no I don't expect anything from anyone.
 

Architect

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This is a flawed ideology. What if someone desires/wants to be treated like shit? What if they enjoy pain? So while you treat them "nicely" they treat you like shit and neither of you are reciprocated. "Expecting" the same level of reciprocation leads to downfall, ultimately. You expect people to have the same level of respect for you that you yourself have of them - not a chance. Expecting things from others is almost pompous in some/most cases. One expects no one to talk to him because he is not talking to others, yet another is expecting others to interact with him because he is interacting with others.



Obviously there is a means test, pathological individuals don't determine the standards in ethics or anywhere else. Regardless I believe that the commonly accepted ethics and morality in the world does rest on the Golden Rule. How do the courts decide, isn't this is basis for our Rule of Law?

Because obviously not all individuals will follow the rule, which is why we have Law. If a man is abusive to his wife, or anybody else, or vice versa, they can be brought into the courts and punished for not following the commonly accepted Golden Rule of don't be abusive to others, either verbally (e.g. libel) or physically.
 

TimeAsylums

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I believe that the commonly accepted ethics and morality in the world does rest on the Golden Rule.
...Seriously? Read the post above yours, everyone has a different set of expectations, and not all of them can be coexistent in a "expected" relationship with other people.
How do the courts decide, isn't this is basis for our Rule of Law?

They usually decide by 12 peers judging your actions you based on evidence given...well, excluding supreme courts etc. Treat others as you expect to be treated is the law? No. If you break the law, there are consequences.

"The Golden Rule" is elementary and simplistic.
 

TimeAsylums

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commonly accepted
Oh, you shame me.


Social niceties are commonly accepted
Small talk is commonly accepted

I wonder how many things I can name that you dislike that are "commonly accepted" (thanks to the majority).

_________________________________________________


As I have stated, how many people's expectations line up exatctly to your own? If the answer is not everyone's. Then someone's expectation is undoubtedly being cinched. Who should bow down to whom?
 

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...Seriously? Read the post above yours, everyone has a different set of expectations, and not all of them can be coexistent in a "expected" relationship with other people.


You're trying to prove your point by extreme example (ad absurdum). The Rule of Law is the common set of acceptable behaviors. If you don't ilke it, say you don't agree with the right to have an abortion, then you can move somewhere else. Most people appear to think women should have the right, and regardless it's the law. Of course the law doesn't always represent the majority, which means it's imperfect.

I'm not sure what country you live in, but this is what the U.S. Constitution is based on. Note the countries that don't follow this, such as the Muslim world or North Korea. Then you are subject to what a very small group of people think.

They usually decide by 12 peers judging your actions you based on evidence given...well, excluding supreme courts etc. Treat others as you expect to be treated is the law? No. If you break the law, there are consequences.

And your point is? You're proving mine. You have a grievance, you take it to court, and a jury of your peers decide what is reasonable cause.

"The Golden Rule" is elementary and simplistic.

Which is it's strength. It's probably why it works.
 

TimeAsylums

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Which is it's strength. It's probably why it works.
"Treat others as you expect to be treated"

You have yet to acknowledge my defining point that every single person has different expectations. So whose expectation should trump whose when deciding how to treat another?
 

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"Treat others as you expect to be treated"

You have yet to acknowledge my defining point that every single person has different expectations.

Because you're not seeing my answer. Everybody does have different expectations, which is why we have (we hope) the common set of the codified into the Rule of Law. I think if you educated people on our laws, then asked you'd find that a great majority of them think they are fair. Cheating, stealing, perjury, injury should all be against the law. Of course life is imperfect and many do the above and get away with it. Got a better system?

So whose expectation should trump whose when deciding how to treat another?

That's what the courts are for. Of course you can't codify laws to cover every possible contingency. For example, my sister went to the courts to decide whether the Doctor was negligent on diagnosing her tumor. He was, he let it get to the size of a tennis ball before deciding it was a problem. But the jury seemed to think she was just trying to get money out of the system and denied the case. The tumor killed her regardless.

Imperfect system again, but I don't know any other way to fairly judge whether he was negligent. I thought he was but of course I would, and of course he thought he wasn't.
 
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