# What is time (discussion)

#### INTPWolf

##### Contemplating reality, one script at a time
time is shaped by our illusions
the most recurrent theme start as seeds.
The more insane i get the more i understand you ya know. awesome.
Yes probability is a function of passing time, splitting into a massive probability tree. Like electricity, probability favors the path of least resistance, then many branches arc off the main in search of another path of least resistance. This continues till the breaker pops.

#### sushi

##### Active Member
if we are talking about what we percieve its momentum and energy.

but after long periods of meditation and comtemplating nothing, spacetime seems to a point rather than continuum.

Its also related to gravity in the sense that the laws of motion is based on gravity. (which is why i say it is based on matter and gravity earlier)

Anyway, I don't know what I am talking about anymore.

#### Tannhauser

##### angry insecure male
It can be defined in a myriad of ways, some of which lend themselves to mathematical models (for example as a dimension of a 4-dimensional manifold in Einstein's relativity). Aside from that, my belief is that there is no way to get to the fundamental nature of time. It is like asking "what is existence".

edit: I just got an idea about time: there is a mystery of why time always moves in only one direction. But who ever said that it does? Maybe it moves back and forth all the time -- we could never tell because you cannot have a memory of having moved backwards and forwards in time.

#### sushi

##### Active Member
It can be defined in a myriad of ways, some of which lend themselves to mathematical models (for example as a dimension of a 4-dimensional manifold in Einstein's relativity). Aside from that, my belief is that there is no way to get to the fundamental nature of time. It is like asking "what is existence".

edit: I just got an idea about time: there is a mystery of why time always moves in only one direction. But who ever said that it does? Maybe it moves back and forth all the time -- we could never tell because you cannot have a memory of having moved backwards and forwards in time.
space and motion is the only way to know that time has passed.

but the question is that without space/motion or there is only empty space and nothingness, with no motion/matter.

will time still elapse?

#### sushi

##### Active Member
the existence of time without motion. Is it possible?

what if 6 seconds and 6 billion years are the same

what makes 6 seconds different from 6 billion years?
like if it takes 6 seconds tfor one person o move from one point of time to next (A to B, or 1 o clock to 5 clock), while the other person takes 6 billion years to do the same? (also 1 o clock to 5 clock) how is the experience different for 1 person to another if they arrrive at the same point (5 o clock)

#### Irukanji

##### Part crazy, Part jelly.
I find it very intriguing that although time is observable, it cannot be described. what is time, can it be defined relative to other things?

If something is observable it should be able to described in relations with other things.
Time only exists so us humans can do the math, if we defined a different period for 1 minute or 1 second, our math would change but the universe wouldn't. Do people really think the universe has a set time?

#### Intolerable

##### Banned
Well just my opinion but to me time has always been distance. That is the travel from one thing to another thing on a given plane within a mass. Mass is important as in the case of a black hole. The denser the mass between two points the longer it takes to cross, the more time passes.

As I haven't read Einsteins theory yet I might be mistaken if he mentioned it or not.

Often we assume the air we travel in is just empty space. It is not. Once you realize you're walking in what amounts to a very thin sea of mass you'll start to understand this. Nothing in space is empty.

#### sushi

##### Active Member
If time really depends on space and motion, for time to last forever, there must be perpetual motion. If the universe doesn't run on perpetual motion, then time itself will end one day. (but if time is independent from motion, then this holds false)

Also, for time to be infinite, it seems a day on earth can be infinite. Since a day ends eventually, does it perclude that time will end one day?

Well just my opinion but to me time has always been distance. That is the travel from one thing to another thing on a given plane within a mass. Mass is important as in the case of a black hole. The denser the mass between two points the longer it takes to cross, the more time passes.

As I haven't read Einsteins theory yet I might be mistaken if he mentioned it or not.

Often we assume the air we travel in is just empty space. It is not. Once you realize you're walking in what amounts to a very thin sea of mass you'll start to understand this. Nothing in space is empty.

scientists have not really understand what the void and space is. all those dark energy, dark matter theories have yet to explain how to works.

#### sushi

##### Active Member
One thing I like to compare time with is a moving train or a railroad.

Is time an infinite train, and on an infinite railroad?

#### Turnevies

##### Active Member
One thing I like to compare time with is a moving train or a railroad.

Is time an infinite train, and on an infinite railroad?
It is a railroad, but as a living creature, you are bound to experience it from a train.

#### Interdimensionist

##### Active Member
One of the things I find most fascinating is the fact that the time of an event will be reported differently by individuals based on their distance and relative velocity to the event, therefore bringing supposed perceived simultaneity of events into question. It can also be affected by another theory espoused by Einstein: Gravitational Time Dilation, I believe this is what Sushi was referring to at the top of the page perhaps?

I didn't read the whole thing, as usual I wanted to jump in with my two cents, anyway the closer one is to a large mass, the slower the passage of time. Due to this effect, the core of the earth is in fact younger than it's crust. It even means that someone working on the top floor of a skyscraper ages faster than someone working below sea level, only by a millisecond or so mind you, not drastic enough for anyone to notice but technically, this means everyone is in their own personal time-zone.

#### sushi

##### Active Member
It is a railroad, but as a living creature, you are bound to experience it from a train.
Its more like when you are not on the train its a moving train.

But when you are on the train, its the railroad.

so when you are observing a train passing and moving, it seems like an infinite moving train.

but when you are on the train, the railroad seems infinite.

#### gilliatt

##### Active Member
Time is a measurement of motion, a relationship. I am 10 years old, 10 revolutions around. But he universe is eternal, its out of time, no standard. But the first clock, timepiece mankind had was the earth itself. Each time the planet turned, mark the axis, starting point, night & day & one cycle of a season. The problem with the earth clock was the less than a day.

#### PmjPmj

##### Full of stars.
Time is the illusion of linear progression through meatspace.

(among other things, of course).

#### Grayman

##### Team Ignorant
If the speed of light is universally constant then does the photon speed up when you accelerate toward it so that it rmains at c in reference to you? How does it both speed up for me and remain the same for the guy who remained stationary?

If instead the speed of light is c from the point of reference or it's origin then which photon do we use to gauge time?

#### green acid

##### Active Member
Why is it that thinking is always thought in a linear progression? Someone once told me thought was outside of time and space. It seems to bow to time, because one thought always follows another on a timeline. How is it possible to think of an apple, and then think of an orange, and ever reverse the order in which they appeared? They happen and quickly evaporate into nothingness (history). It seems a fact that time is one-dimensional, or is this just an illusion that I have?

#### green acid

##### Active Member
It can be defined in a myriad of ways, some of which lend themselves to mathematical models (for example as a dimension of a 4-dimensional manifold in Einstein's relativity). Aside from that, my belief is that there is no way to get to the fundamental nature of time. It is like asking "what is existence".

edit: I just got an idea about time: there is a mystery of why time always moves in only one direction. But who ever said that it does? Maybe it moves back and forth all the time -- we could never tell because you cannot have a memory of having moved backwards and forwards in time.
That is it.

#### Artsu Tharaz

##### Resident Resident
what is time

time is what you have when you dont have much time left

what is space

space is where you go when you cant see where youre going

what is spacetime

spacetime is exploring whats around you, because thats whats been and will

what is mass

mass is what you feel when youre standing still

[what is heat

heat is just the distance from where the thing was made

what is gravity

gravity is just one of the things which does the making]*

how do magnets work

when charge spins through spacetime, it creates two different sides
just clockwise and anti-clockwise, lining up all parts

* going to reword this, its entropy and anti-entropy pretty much

picture ripples on a body of water for heat, i suspect gravity is just the reverse of that

#### Artsu Tharaz

##### Resident Resident
Alright: here is a clue to how gravity works.

An object falls towards the earth because it is trying to figure out how to fall through the earth.

(after that is some stuff about positive and negative charge, and then weak and strong forces)

+ heat is like, a statement about free will and determinism

apparently if things do what they feel like doing, then we get "chaos" or "entropy"

Are you guys catching on yet?

I know some of you are.

#### Artsu Tharaz

##### Resident Resident
An object falls towards the earth because it is trying to figure out how to fall through the earth.
btw did everyone/anyone get what I was implying here?

I have found that if I say "x is NOT true" then it naturally attracts those who think that x IS true, so they can show why x is true.

So, if matter can do what it wants essentially, then one thing which would influence it, is other matter saying you can NOT pass through me, so it will try to see if it can or not.

If I actually had more than a 1st year level university physics education, I could probably say a bit more about the other forces, yet alas, all I know is positives go to negatives and away from positives, and theres some up down quark transform beta decay thing, and a strong force which is way strong than positives going away from positives, some shit like that who fucking cares hahaha

Science will be obsolete soon anyway. \(o.O)/

#### Artsu Tharaz

##### Resident Resident
what is time

time is what you have when you dont have much time left
This one was partly me being a dick, but moreso a statement that the fear of death is roughly in proportion to how much you are not "living in the moment".

what is space

space is where you go when you cant see where youre going
This is another statement of that "not attractor" thing. We tend to try to uncover what is not yet uncovered.

what is spacetime

spacetime is exploring whats around you, because thats whats been and will
Another statement of living in the moment. This applies to all types, btw.

what is mass

mass is what you feel when youre standing still
This one... not quite sure, but ehh some reference to relativity and the matter cannot pass through matter thing.

[what is heat

heat is just the distance from where the thing was made

what is gravity

gravity is just one of the things which does the making]*
I read once that there is some actual theory about how gravity and entropy relate. I figure, if gravity attracts things towards each other pretty much all the time, then it could very well be the opposite of entropy, like its "dual" or something along those lines.

how do magnets work

when charge spins through spacetime, it creates two different sides
just clockwise and anti-clockwise, lining up all parts
This is my actual understanding of how magnets work, if it is incorrect then I need to learn more physics lol. From what I understand, magnetism comes from the relativistic effects of electric charge moving at high speeds, and could be likened to clockwise/anti-clockwise as to why there is a north and south pole as a result (though I know this does not quite answer why that follows from relativity+electric charge).

* going to reword this, its entropy and anti-entropy pretty much

picture ripples on a body of water for heat, i suspect gravity is just the reverse of that
And yeah, this is basically a way I visualise entropy, and hence what the opposite of entropy would be, i.e. just time moving in reverse.

Oh, and my basic way of expressing these ideas was an Eminem reference.

#### Grayman

##### Team Ignorant
How does this all relate to time?

#### Grayman

##### Team Ignorant
Let me rephrase this to WTF are you spewing all over this thread?!

#### green acid

##### Active Member
Yeah, the businessmen who manufacture clocks, watches and the like.

#### Artsu Tharaz

##### Resident Resident
Let me rephrase this to WTF are you spewing all over this thread?!
I can think of no productive way to answer this question.

The question is insincere, and serves purely to reduce my self-esteem.

#### Artsu Tharaz

##### Resident Resident
I have no conception of time

#### Grayman

##### Team Ignorant
I can think of no productive way to answer this question.

The question is insincere, and serves purely to reduce my self-esteem.
It's sincere. You can fpp bullshit or whatever just make sure it's consistent and logical in order.

I love imaginary works. Fiction is my favorite and the more out there a movie is from reality the better. What irritates me is when it is incomprehensible. It needn't be consistent with reality but hopefully it is consistent within it's own framework.

#### redbaron

##### consummate salt-extraction specialist
ITT Grayman is mad because he doesn't understand.

#### Grayman

##### Team Ignorant
ITT Grayman is mad because he doesn't understand.
Damn you caught me. I guess there is a first for everything.

#### Artsu Tharaz

##### Resident Resident
It's sincere. You can fpp bullshit or whatever just make sure it's consistent and logical in order.

I love imaginary works. Fiction is my favorite and the more out there a movie is from reality the better. What irritates me is when it is incomprehensible. It needn't be consistent with reality but hopefully it is consistent within it's own framework.
Haha sorry for that comment!

My statements regarding those concepts were intended to give a concise statement of how I view those things; much of it was about living life in the moment.

I had felt that perhaps these way of expressing the ideas could lead to a higher understanding of the concepts themselves, whether for myself or others.

#### sushi

##### Active Member
When all is constant, there is no time

a universe with constant time has no time

a universe with constant energy, or at constant state, has no time.

#### AndyC

##### Hm?
Cause and effect. Spaces structure (relativity and gravity) simply has an influence the way in which cause and effect occurs. The effects are limited by their causes, other effects, distance, what is physical and the structure of space. Physical constraints affect things like the speed of light, there is no 'time'. This makes the most sense to me.

#### sushi

##### Active Member
the closest thing time can be compared to is video reccording.

when you watch a video, time can go backward, go forward, stop, or speed up or slow down. thats the closest thing to time manipulation i can see.

unfortunately time only move at a constant rate in reality.

#### Mxx

##### Active Member
I think the experience of PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder) where the subject experiences a past event as if it were the present is an interesting phenomemon in terms of how our brains experience time. I wonder if it is possible to experience something so emotionally charged in a positive way that one experiences post-trememdous situation disorder.

#### Minute Squirrel

##### magician
Time is an imaginary prison that we created the moment we broke out of our former prison. The moment we developed the capacity to see outside of the present is the moment "time" was created.
I suppose it is both a useful tool and a prison.

#### Mxx

##### Active Member
Dreaming is another interesting experience of time that humans are capable of sensing.

#### beautifulies

##### Member
It is this abstraction we use to measure other abstractions, and most likely for the sake of itself.

##### Push to Start
The time now is 11:25 PM.

#### Intolerable

##### Banned
I would say space-time as a 4th dimension is a sufficient explanation. It's just that people have difficulty imagining what a 4th dimension would be like. How it would involve everything that could potentially change your life.

#### gps

##### INTP 5w4 Iconoclast
I find it very intriguing that although time is observable ...
Really?
Is it time qua time' which either IS or merely seems observable?
Or might Chronological time turn-out or end-up something derivative of PROCESS/Action/Activity?

By way of a thought experiment, if a clock' of some sort were crafted out of
Bose-Einstein condensate what kind of time' would it keep'?
How would it behave as per both the paradigms of Classical Mechanics and quantum mechanics?

By way of retro speculation, how would the West' have matured' if both of the ancient Greek Gods --
Chronos AND Kairos -- had been honored and perpetuated instead of only the one which has promoted tick-tock thinking of the sort which finds most Westerners -- INTPs included -- acting and believing as-if Time were a prime mover rather than a phenomenon derived-from and dependent-upon Movement/Activity/Action?

#### gps

##### INTP 5w4 Iconoclast
It seems to bow to time, because one thought always follows another on a timeline. How is it possible to think of an apple, and then think of an orange, and ever reverse the order in which they appeared?

This seems the sort of fallacy of narration common to right-handed, left-hemisphere-dominant thinkers.
One may imagine both an apple, an orange ... and a pear thrown in as well ... all kept in motion by a juggler.
Their existences are concurrent; not one, then the next, then the next.

The notion of Multiverse flies in the face of a single one-dimensional, one-timeline notion which sequential thinkers imagine into BEING as per construction of personal models and maps of TRW which are often mistaken for The Real World itself ... as if The Map WERE The Territory.
Objectivists further muddy the waters by conflating and confusing mere consensus reality' among a collective of would-be objective thinkers' for some sort of would-be objective' reality.

So as long as we ALL believe or act-as-if Time is a' or thee' Prime Mover we can ignore notions that Time emerges or arises from Time-engendering events, circumstances, or such.

The West', BTW, is about the only culture which (mis)uses a linear (mis)conception of time; most other cultures regard time as cyclical, circular, or spiraling as contrasted with a straight line as if a/thee Time Line.