What is the ideal role for women

[Cognisant]

Do you dare?

 

[ZenRaiden]

I cannot really speak for women, my main ideal would be someone who has sense of adventure, like someone who say we going to Amazon jungle tomorrow, pack yourshit and lets go.
But also someone highly empathic and caring. Strong willed and independent.
I think most women are not like that who knows.
I want someone who is secure and sensitive, leave me for a month come back like nothing happened.

 

[Black Rose]

My sister had a baby and she said it was weird.

 

[birdsnestfern]

Try as much as you can regardless of your gender and be a well rounded person. Roles for anyone are restrictive.
I think taking home economics and learning to sew, cook, make eclairs, read recipes, shop, raise kids is fine, but I also wanted to take shop classes like woodshop, machineshop, welding, architecture, electricity, plumbing, wiring, auto mechanics, construction, electronics assembly and QA, college, accounting, everything is fine, its good to learn what you want to.

 

[Puffy]

Whatever role best suits that particular woman.

 

[dr froyd]

i randomly came across this video of bjork the other day:


i think bjork is a genius musician, but here she reflects the nonsensical notion that if a woman has to conform to her surroundings in any way, that's some sort of sexism. When she talks about how men can be all things they can be, reality is that practically no man believes he is supposed to be loved and valued as a man no matter what he is vis a vis the rest of the world (in fact its the opposite). Women value certain qualities i men, and men value certain qualities in women.

 

[Cognisant]

We can have roles for men without it being restrictive, so why not for women?

Why are we so comfortable talking about ideals and expectations of men, but suddenly it's a difficult topic when we're talking about women?

 

[ZenRaiden]

. Women value certain qualities i men, and men value certain qualities in women.

Ask yourself one simple question. How we got here?
Man value biceps in the gym. Do women actually care about biceps?
Women want long nails. Do you actually care about long nails?
So what some women thinks "fill in blank", because I think that is what they want, therefore I do that which in turn leads to women controlling you, therefore restricting your life.
What if I told you most of these values actually don't have any value, and most people don't give a damn.
I love women with long nails and make up for instance, but a female without that junk is just as sexy.
I just see it as slight bonus, but the female is spending like 100s of dollars there, where in reality she looks marginally better to be honest. And if she does that shit wrong she literally looks worse.
Same with men who are chubby and women love that and many don't care.
Like chiselled physique is super attractive, but a lot of times the amount of effort men put into this shit vs results is small.
Don't get me wrong, its a arms race there when it comes to attraction and procreation and stuff, but ultimately they are more about peoples insecurities.
So there are values out there that score big points, but most people won't tell you about them.
You get guys telling you how to do a bicep curl, and women peacocks, when in reality 90 percent of that is a chore killing your money and time.

The reality the same goes for personality and stuff like roles.
Like women do care for a man that can change a tire, but they won't go out with such men. Its like who cares. Its not an asset in the game.

So values are deformed by perceptions.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Why are we so comfortable talking about ideals and expectations of men

Because you need to ask this 100 women to get a real answer, not 5 men and 1 women who already gave you the answer.
This is just a bad place to ask to be honest.

 

[Cognisant]

That is a very fair point lol.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Anyone remember this song though?

 

[ZenRaiden]

That is a very fair point lol.

To be honest its a good topic people don't talk about enough.
We live in the world of today, not the past.
The fact is my parents generation had one choice only.
The guy picked a career.
The women picked a man.
The end. After that their life was in rails all the way to retirement.
That is what my parents did.
If a guy failed he was a no good bum and a loser.
If a women failed she was a lone virgin with no chance except being the downtown whore or a nun.
I know this might sound a little too oversimplified, but
we have better options today, no matter how crappy shit got with the economy and the whole relationship loner crises.

I don't believe my life is going to ever get into rails, even if I tried, since that world no longer exists. I don't even know I can afford to rely on retirement money as that is too small sum to rely on etc.
Job wise I can be a baby dipper aficionado, a ADHD suicide specialist, a alligator turkey actor, or a hologram technician.
Relationship wise its even wilder.
The world is different, the way we can make life happen is more flexible. Many reliable jobs that existed no longer exist.
Having families and kids is a different ball game for lots of people too, and the roles we can play are more diverse, but also changed for better or worse.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Also
But lets be honest she got a point. Its just not something INTPs want to hear when they are squeezing every brain lobe into a knowledge base.

 

[dr froyd]

. Women value certain qualities i men, and men value certain qualities in women.

Ask yourself one simple question. How we got here?
Man value biceps in the gym. Do women actually care about biceps?
Women want long nails. Do you actually care about long nails?
So what some women thinks "fill in blank", because I think that is what they want, therefore I do that which in turn leads to women controlling you, therefore restricting your life.
What if I told you most of these values actually don't have any value, and most people don't give a damn.

what if i told you that people operate without using their prefrontal cortex 90% of the time. At the end of the day, most humans are very simple and predictable, because despite the ideals we've invented about ourselves we're all still mostly apes. This ape brain is evolved over millions of years and has a certain representation of reality based on our long prehistoric past, it's not a computer where you can just load up any program one sees fit. Do you think, for example, that all your preferences, all your instincts and behaviors were invented by yourself? No my dude, we're all slaves to our biology, and can escape it only some few exceptional cases.

Im a big fan of living outside the rules and expectations of others too, but I don't fool myself about the reality that if I am to get what I want, I have to adapt to the world around me. I'm not gonna hang around and wait for the world to adapt to me -- that is a waste of time

 

[ZenRaiden]

what if i told you that people operate without using their prefrontal cortex 90% of the time. At the end of the day, most humans are very simple and predictable, because despite the ideals we've invented about ourselves we're all still mostly apes. This ape brain is evolved over millions of years and has a certain representation of reality based on our long prehistoric past, it's not a computer where you can just load up any program one sees fit. Do you think, for example, that all your preferences, all your instincts and behaviors were invented by yourself? No my dude, we're all slaves to our biology, and can escape it only some few exceptional cases.

Im a big fan of living outside the rules and expectations of others too, but I don't fool myself about the reality that if I am to get what I want, I have to adapt to the world around me. I'm not gonna hang around and wait for the world to adapt to me -- that is a waste of time

I actually agree with this 100 percent.
The thing is biology for me means 90 percent women are sexy.
That however is not how I behave though.
I mean you can try, it does not work though.
So a lot of biology is not actually raw biology.
We have brain parts that are flooded with subconscious programing that is true, but at the end of the day, that includes a lot of non-biological stuff.
I would actually argue to be bio you would have to clear your slate of all the crap you heard from all the people around you. Your parents, teachers, even the bible, because even if you are atheist it will drag your psyche down unconsciously.
SO yes at the end of the day your DNA will have a say in stuff, but there are layers of shit that got nothing to do with how we are wired, and a lot of passive absorbing.
Unfortunately that includes things that are supremely detrimental to us.
So yes if you balance it out and have low repressions you kind of are closer to biology.
The thing is societal repressions are there since we get born and start developing, cause parents dress us before we can even speak.
Some tribes near omo just walk naked.
Generally no women go tits out unless its the beach and guys don't go swinging dicks unless its nudist beach.
We would probably also all wear some version of tattoo just to be tribal and primitivst.
I also think we are talking conditioning that overrides biology.
Because conditioning is part of our natural landscape.
So do certain traits override this. I think yes, but with the caveat that its not a clean bio mind.

 

[Black Rose]

conditioning is part of our natural landscape

People think you cannot be friends if you are not sexually engaged in a male-female relationship. This is untrue but because people see things in a hierarchical nature, that is the one guy gets all the girls and the rest get nothing (is how some view it) people think you need mussels and looks and such and such. So biology is not 100% known what it really is. Some people do have more kids and others have few, with multiple people or one person. It depends.

What I have come across is that there is a fast or a slow life strategy for people. the ones with a slow life strategy survive longer but have few kids and those that live fast die faster but have more kids. So it balances out. And the kids are not necessarily the same as the parents. The faster you live the more influenced you are by "the group". The slower you live the more you reflect on the future. Where it is you must be to find a niche.

A person is "conditioned" when they learn what to do in society. So this usually is about getting kids to survive by conformity. What do men like, and what do women like, it depends on what we are told without knowing the fast and slow strategies. Women do want kids to be taken care of but if the man cannot do it then the group must do it. That is why the ones with a fast strategy seek dominant male "leaders". The woman with slow strategy life speed looks for intelligence and self-awareness. Men practically do the same but fewer men are slow life strategists than women are. Most women are slow life strategists and most men are fast life strategists.

 

[kora]

The question is phrased kind of authoritarian no? But of course you are being a bit provocative as you like to be. Speaking for myself, I don't feel like there is any ideal role in particular that should be assigned to me. I would like to be able to do things that interest me + contribute to society according to my particular skillset. I feel it should be the same for everyone no matter their gender.

If someone asks me "what is the ideal role for men" I also draw a bit of a blank, for they are all diverse people, there cannot be one role that corresponds to them all!

 

[Puffy]

We can have roles for men without it being restrictive, so why not for women?

Why are we so comfortable talking about ideals and expectations of men, but suddenly it's a difficult topic when we're talking about women?

What would you say the roles, ideals and expectations of men are?

At least these days professionally I feel like you see men and women in all professions, so I’m unsure if I see an expectation in my culture at least that men should have a certain role. Or by role do you mean something other than profession?

 

[Black Rose]

a role is simply a part to be played, role in meaning (to roll downhill or roll along little dougy) role = roll

so it is a life path because to roll is to move.

if we are to say male and female exist then they will "roll" in different ways.

men will "move" in a different way than women "move"

to ask what makes this so we define gender by a type of motion (male and female)

so we assign a kind of motion of what is male and what is female to the attributes of maleness and femaleness.

(what "motion" attributes they are is what we mean by gender "rolls")