What is friendship and do you want it?

[BigApplePi]

I wonder...how do you get around the Dominant/Subordinate and/or Pro/Client barriers founding such relationships? 'Rent-A-Friend' seems to contradict the fundamental principle on which 'friendship' is based. At the risk of appearing offensive...what do you do? Invite them home to dinner with the wife and kids? Stroll with them out in plain sight upon the campus green?

The reason I ask is because I find the topic of overcoming traditional barriers of friendship highly interesting on a personal level. You see...my 'best friend' at present is a nine year old boy with Childhood Onset Schizophrenia who also happens to be my nephew, and also happens to reside with my wife and 2 sons as a primary family member.

Perhaps it's relevant to mention that this has all come about thanks to (and I reiterate 'Thank You') the failure of both his purported 'Professional Friends' (one of whom apparently opted for the 'sexual relationship' stopgap *case pending, of course*) and his former primary family (one of whom attempted to demonstrate his friendship by taking the boy by the shoulders and shaking violently in a vain attempt to rattle loose the 'crazy part').

Stray thoughts and reactions:

In computerese, computers used to be mainframed centralized things. Now there are no visible central computers. Everything is "distributed"; each of us holds a modest amount of power in our own computer.

Modern friendship could be like that. Our family has left us and is replaced by interaction with computers, phones and one-way passiveness to television. So things have changed. The question is, how do we make the best of this?

Solitaire U. If you enjoy a friendship with a 9-year old boy and take the assumed responsibility of your greater maturity, best of luck to you. I don't have ANY children except for pets and have to live with that. The experiences of that boy sounded awfully disfunctional and if you provide a secure contrast to that for him, all the power to you. I don't know if this forum provides a friendship for you or not. I would hope it would because it does something for me ... and I'm not sure yet if I'd call it "friendship."

 

[BigApplePi]

I don't know how to tell if I'm friends with someone or not.

I haven't thought about distinguishing "friend" from "friendly." Try seeing if the person consistently gives you positive feedback. It doesn't have to be even consistent. If they become expectant to be friendly by experience they are friend candidate. I think posters are friendly toward you.

 

[Solitaire U.]

Your analogy to pets is somewhat fitting. I perceive the relationship more in terms of friendship simply because...though I've no inclination to ever do this...theoretically, there is nothing (tangible) preventing me from returning my nephew to his 'rightful owners' and saying "I'm done with this, he's your responsibility.".

That this same possibility doesn't exist for me in regard to my own children or even my wife is, I believe, where the line between friendship and responsibility is drawn. Re: my nephew...it's worth the effort simply because I learn so much from him. Obviously, to an extent the same is true of my wife and kids...and obviously, I feel similar degrees of 'love' (though I'm admittedly a bit confused as to what that actually is at this time) for my nephew as I do for my wife/kids, but there are responsibility barriers that exist with them that don't with my nephew. It's difficult to describe...when you have to be something for others it's not the same as being something with no underlying investment or sense of responsibility, but rather simply because you want to...

Hence my previous questions...

Perhaps that makes no sense, but what the hell...best I can describe it.

 

[BigApplePi]

Your analogy to pets is somewhat fitting. I perceive the relationship more in terms of friendship simply because...though I've no inclination to ever do this...theoretically, there is nothing (tangible) preventing me from returning my nephew to his 'rightful owners' and saying "I'm done with this, he's your responsibility.".

That this same possibility doesn't exist for me in regard to my own children or even my wife is, I believe, where the line between friendship and responsibility is drawn. Re: my nephew...it's worth the effort simply because I learn so much from him. Obviously, to an extent the same is true of my wife and kids...and obviously, I feel similar degrees of 'love' (though I'm admittedly a bit confused as to what that actually is at this time) for my nephew as I do for my wife/kids, but there are responsibility barriers that exist with them that don't with my nephew. It's difficult to describe...when you have to be something for others it's not the same as being something with no underlying investment or sense of responsibility, but rather simply because you want to...

Hence my previous questions...

Perhaps that makes no sense, but what the hell...best I can describe it.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying and may never be able to. I know my pets are my responsibility. I can't turn them over to anyone else. With your nephew are you saying there IS someone who could be responsible, however inadequate, but because your responsibility is shared, you don't feel FULLY responsible? I think I'm asking this because I feel an empty space because I can't ever have children (too late in life) so although I can imagine responsibility I can't actually HAVE it. Can you say what you learn from your nephew? By no means feel obligated to answer as I'm just asking and may not be able to get the answer.

I'm impressed with the photo you present because the boy is ready to love that dog yet the AK-47 is something he can kill with without realizing what it means to take a life.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Juxtaposition

 

[Solitaire U.]

Re: the avatar...notice the boy soldier's attention is focused upon the puppy in his affectionate embrace, while his rifle (which is actually a U.S. M-16 rather than a Russian AK...perhaps trivial but nevertheless symbolic in...my eyes...no offense intended!) is held angled away and pointing harmlessly skyward, forgotten for the moment at least. If that boy were asked to choose between his puppy and his M-16 the moment after the shutter clicked, he would undoubtedly be forced to choose the M-16, most likely under threat of punishment or perhaps even death...

But if the boy were removed from the circumstances that enabled such a stark study in contrasts to be captured on film, and simply asked to choose either his puppy or his M-16 without fear of reprisal, what do you predict, based on what can be inferred from the photo, would be his choice?

You assume responsibility for your pets because you obtain some type of fulfillment in return. Whether this is externally-perceived as just, honorable or whatever is irrelevant provided some mutually-beneficial exchange is taking place. But though you may acknowledge/pledge a personal commitment to them, your option to set them free/turn them in to the animal shelter/give them to someone else to look after without repercussion always exists.

Suppose I am so incompatible with one of my kids (or by extension their mother) that I cannot stand to be in the same room with him, let alone feed, shelter and otherwise provide for him without expecting (or deserving) anything in exchange. I still must do so, not in accordance with the Laws of Humans, but the Laws of Nature.

What do I learn from my 9 year old Schizophrenic nephew? Oy vey! I know not where to even begin to describe how much I've learned from him about man's ill-defined presumptions regarding...

...sanity!

 

[Solitaire U.]

Juxtaposition

Indeed.

 

[BigApplePi]

Re: the avatar...notice the boy soldier's attention is focused upon the puppy in his affectionate embrace, while his rifle (which is actually a U.S. M-16 rather than a Russian AK...perhaps trivial but nevertheless symbolic in...my eyes...no offense intended!) is held angled away and pointing harmlessly skyward, forgotten for the moment at least. If that boy were asked to choose between his puppy and his M-16 the moment after the shutter clicked, he would undoubtedly be forced to choose the M-16, most likely under threat of punishment or perhaps even death...

But if the boy were removed from the circumstances that enabled such a stark study in contrasts to be captured on film, and simply asked to choose either his puppy or his M-16 without fear of reprisal, what do you predict, based on what can be inferred from the photo, would be his choice?

Agreed about the boy. The M-16 ... my error.

You assume responsibility for your pets because you obtain some type of fulfillment in return. Whether this is externally-perceived as just, honorable or whatever is irrelevant provided some mutually-beneficial exchange is taking place. But though you may acknowledge/pledge a personal commitment to them, your option to set them free/turn them in to the animal shelter/give them to someone else to look after without repercussion always exists.

This is where you learn something about me. (What I'm not sure). Yes I obtain fulfillment. I don't have much of a conscious external perception. I would NOT deliver them to an animal shelter or give them to someone else. I love (or whatever it is) my pets. Just got back from a trip and we took the dog with us taking care to find pet-friendly motels. I would have taken the cats with me only their likelihood of escape and care would be too great. I constantly (and stupidly) tell my wife they are part of the family. I suppose my feelings are those of an INTP who is not so sure he will get love and the pets simulate that without questioning me.

Suppose I am so incompatible with one of my kids (or by extension their mother) that I cannot stand to be in the same room with him, let alone feed, shelter and otherwise provide for him without expecting (or deserving) anything in exchange. I still must do so, not in accordance with the Laws of Humans, but the Laws of Nature.

I claim this is a social construct. Society says, "stay together." You are aware of this so that is an encouragement for you to work things out. Off hand I don't connect this with Laws of Nature or of Humans but with enviromental feedback. Feel free to correct me if I'm off base here.

What do I learn from my 9 year old Schizophrenic nephew? Oy vey! I know not where to even begin to describe how much I've learned from him about man's ill-defined presumptions regarding......sanity!

This may be presumptuous of me but let me take a wild guess. Your care for your nephew brings out your care for yourself. You mentioned schizophrenia and sanity. So your efforts to deal with those in your nephew causes you to be all the more sane yourself when you (or anyone) might feel like going off the deep end at any time). Am I close?

 

[Solitaire U.]

Re; pets...I don't doubt for a second that you feel every bit as strongly towards them as you expressed. As previously stated, I'd no sooner abandon my nephew...which leads us along the roundabout path to the laws of nature...

"I claim this is a social construct. Society says, "stay together." You are aware of this so that is an encouragement for you to work things out. Off hand I don't connect this with Laws of Nature or of Humans but with environmental feedback. Feel free to correct me if I'm off base here."

Interesting...when this all began for me at age 20 with the news of my eldest son's impending arrival, 'stay together' did not exist for me. That sir, is a highly conditional social construct that is only extended to members of a certain 'club' of which I did not belong at that time. I'd prefer to limit the self-demeaning explanations and just concede that an abortion was a justifiable suggestion for anyone to make to a person of my...'apparent caliber' at that time.

Notwithstanding that I had in fact been raised on the notion that abortions were the responsible...merciful even...course of action to atone for the sin of unplanned pregnancy.

While I maintain no view either way in the social/political aspect (and refuse to suffer participation in debates about fetuses and whatnot)...despite all the external persistent encouragement, I could not concede to what I could only rationalize as killing my gestating son. I will say that I've yet to reconcile with this society that denied me any legal recourse to contest the mother's decision to abort...in hindsight I'm just thankful she decided of her own free will to inform me far enough in advance that I had the time to scrape together the bribe that was to be my response.

I accept that society is unwilling to reimburse me the cost of having to thwart it's efforts and buy my eldest son into the world, but if this is the same society that would tell me "stay together" after the fact, then forgive my selective deafness.

I must say, it hadn't struck me until now that such vast perspective divergence in this aspect was even possible. It's a rather surreal discovery, TSTL. Perhaps your feelings for your pets, like mine for my children, are more reflective of human nature than 'society' is prepared at this time to have us believe. I know I'm not the first stupid careless irresponsible 20 year old to ever feel this way.

As to your 'wild guess'...

Though I have observed my nephew as a participant in several situations where I feel he had every justification - sane or otherwise - to 'go off the deep end', I have yet to witness any such behavior from him. I've only seen the 'sane' people, myself included, behave irrationally relative to him. While I would definitely say his mental functions are 'abnormal' (as in, deviating from the common default), I do not perceive him as any less 'sane' than myself or anyone else. My concern for his 'handicaps' if you will, is focused upon those aspects of his 'disorder' that impose an undue mental state of duress upon him. He CAN be reasoned with, and he CAN distinguish real from imagined...he just needs a little help to do so as it doesn't come as naturally for him as it does for the majority of us.

Switching to PM at this point for further explanation, so as not to take the OP any further off-topic.

 

[indigofireflies]

I always find myself closer to people then I am to people. They reach out, and I accept, but make no attempt to reach out myself. I know their life stories, and the most they end up knowing about me is the very menial basics.

True friendship is a long relationship in which we have both reached out at a more-or-less equal rate of speed and I can trust them fully -- I can be emotional and express my true opinions without fear. There's also a bit of love involved. Platonic. But it can come from romance.

I have a few true friends. They're few and far between due to my self-isolation. None of them go to my school.

 

[Cognisant]

Something I just wrote in another thread:

Loneliness is in essence, an existential crisis.

Recognition, understanding, it's all validation for the existence of self, because what is a friend if not the friendly "other", a creator of meaning just like yourself, and between the two of you a contrived sort of objectivity is created, in which your self is more than just a subjective notion, it is an objective reality.

 

[BigApplePi]

Originally Posted by Cognisant
Loneliness is in essence, an existential crisis.

Recognition, understanding, it's all validation for the existence of self, because what is a friend if not the friendly "other", a creator of meaning just like yourself, and between the two of you a contrived sort of objectivity is created, in which your self is more than just a subjective notion, it is an objective reality.

Could we say loneliness is in the nature of the beast for if we are all unique, then there is going to be a period where we can't be recognized? Therefore we will be alone. This alone-ness carries with it the possibility of "I am not worthy of recognition" and so is painful.

But we could also say a friend recognizes what we have in common so we not only are not alone, but the friend says, "You are worthwhile enough that I should listen to and recognize you." Implied is the possibility the friend is the same as you are so two facing the issue are better than one.

 

[BigApplePi]

I always find myself closer to people then I am to people. They reach out, and I accept, but make no attempt to reach out myself. I know their life stories, and the most they end up knowing about me is the very menial basics.

True friendship is a long relationship in which we have both reached out at a more-or-less equal rate of speed and I can trust them fully -- I can be emotional and express my true opinions without fear. There's also a bit of love involved. Platonic. But it can come from romance.

I have a few true friends. They're few and far between due to my self-isolation. None of them go to my school.

We don't HAVE to trust to reach out. We can take a chance and be rejected. But we can learn from that rejection, reach out and be rewarded. The rewards can be great. For all we know the other party may be reluctant to reach out, so no harm in going first.

If we get an unpleasant rejection, we could come here and ask why. I've been rejected because I didn't know the other person was busy, or was afraid, or just wasn't a compatible personality type. On the other hand, I can decide NOT to reach out if I see the other person is busy, was not properly assured or wasn't a compatible personality type. I can also forgive myself for an error and say, "To heck with it."

 

[indigofireflies]

We don't HAVE to trust to reach out. We can take a chance and be rejected. But we can learn from that rejection, reach out and be rewarded. The rewards can be great. For all we know the other party may be reluctant to reach out, so no harm in going first.

If we get an unpleasant rejection, we could come here and ask why. I've been rejected because I didn't know the other person was busy, or was afraid, or just wasn't a compatible personality type. On the other hand, I can decide NOT to reach out if I see the other person is busy, was not properly assured or wasn't a compatible personality type. I can also forgive myself for an error and say, "To heck with it."

Trust and reaching out go hand-in-hand for me. I don't feel comfortable/have no real urge to reach out unless I have a trust to cause me to want to -- and a trust that I won't be spurned. I don't handle that sort of rejection very well. This isn't to say I don't have friends, though -- I have a good circle. :]

Haha, to heck with it is a good way to brush things off.

 

[BigApplePi]

Trust and reaching out go hand-in-hand for me. I don't feel comfortable/have no real urge to reach out unless I have a trust to cause me to want to -- and a trust that I won't be spurned. I don't handle that sort of rejection very well. This isn't to say I don't have friends, though -- I have a good circle. :]

Haha, to heck with it is a good way to brush things off.

I don't think it possible to assure no rejection and I think trust is scaled. Think of a hot stove. I have to wonder if it's hot before I touch it. No way I can tell for sure without some test. I can have someone else try it. I can go get my thermometer. It's easier though to just swipe it and see if it's hot. If it is that counts as a rejection. I have to trust it won't burn me but a quick swipe probably won't.

 

[Zeldon]

Could we say loneliness is in the nature of the beast for if we are all unique, then there is going to be a period where we can't be recognized? Therefore we will be alone. This alone-ness carries with it the possibility of "I am not worthy of recognition" and so is painful.

But we could also say a friend recognizes what we have in common so we not only are not alone, but the friend says, "You are worthwhile enough that I should listen to and recognize you." Implied is the possibility the friend is the same as you are so two facing the issue are better than one.

Clearly this is correct, but the problem is how best to establish these relationships. I have always felt that in order to have a friend, you have to be a friend first. Befriending the self is harder then befriending others...

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Clearly this is correct, but the problem is how best to establish these relationships. I have always felt that in order to have a friend, you have to be a friend first. Befriending the self is harder then befriending others...

I don't think so, if you know what I mean.

 

[Zeldon]

I don't think so, if you know what I mean.

I guess it depends on the circumstances then...

 

[crippli]

I look at friendship as a loyalty. Specifically when one is vulnerable. Say 7 persons plots against me. And one challenges the pack to help in my defense. That's friendship to me. I don't forget that. And they can count on me in return if they are in need of a friend. One should be innocent though. Like harassment.

So what it means is that one will give support if your odds are low to make it.

Yes. I do like to have people I can trust. Just me isn't all that much to put on the table.

 

[BigApplePi]

I don't think so, if you know what I mean.

Icy,
I, for one, don't know what you mean. Zeldon had said, "Befriending the self is harder then befriending others..."
I once saw a book in a bookstore, "Be Your Own Best Friend." I didn't look at it but I think friendship with oneself is a different category than friendship with others. One is heavily involved with oneself while others are far more tenuous.

 

[BigApplePi]

I look at friendship as a loyalty. Specifically when one is vulnerable. Say 7 persons plots against me. And one challenges the pack to help in my defense. That's friendship to me. I don't forget that. And they can count on me in return if they are in need of a friend. One should be innocent though. Like harassment.

So what it means is that one will give support if your odds are low to make it.

Yes. I do like to have people I can trust. Just me isn't all that much to put on the table.

crippli,
Excellent point I had forgotten all about. Friendship can be casual buddy-buddy, but is tested when one party falls under adversity. That has happened to me and when one guy came to my defense, I never forgot that and would be his friend any day because he was friend to me. I notice though that I don't know know personal that was. He simply agreed with me about something on a bulletin board.

 

[Pepper]

I look at friendship as a loyalty. Specifically when one is vulnerable.

I don't know that I have ever had that. I will go to the mat for my friends, even to my own detriment, and can be loyal to a fault. But I don't recall anyone ever doing the same for me.
I don't know if it's because I appear so strong and detached that I don't need it, or if I choose the wrong people to befriend, but I know that I am almost always thrown under the bus.

God, I hate people.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Icy,
I, for one, don't know what you mean. Zeldon had said, "Befriending the self is harder then befriending others..."
I once saw a book in a bookstore, "Be Your Own Best Friend." I didn't look at it but I think friendship with oneself is a different category than friendship with others. One is heavily involved with oneself while others are far more tenuous.

ahmagod Can't you tell when someone makes a masturbation joke?

 

[BigApplePi]

I don't know that I have ever had that. I will go to the mat for my friends, even to my own detriment, and can be loyal to a fault. But I don't recall anyone ever doing the same for me.
I don't know if it's because I appear so strong and detached that I don't need it, or if I choose the wrong people to befriend, but I know that I am almost always thrown under the bus.

God, I hate people.

Pepper, can you give an example of this in your experience so what went wrong might surface?

 

[BigApplePi]

ahmagod Can't you tell when someone makes a masturbation joke?

ahmagod I missed it. I'll have to do that more often. Experience is the best teacher. Learning the hard way?

 

[Solitaire U.]

Clearly this is correct, but the problem is how best to establish these relationships. I have always felt that in order to have a friend, you have to be a friend first. Befriending the self is harder then befriending others...

I have major problems with this. It's not enough that I can't be at peace or even neutrality with myself...it has to be a constant state of war. It's been this way for as long as I can remember, and it greatly affects my ability...or I should say, other people's ability to maintain friendships with me.

I'm aware of how challenging it is to attempt to maintain a friendship with someone as resolutely self-destructive as myself. I've never had a problem finding friends. Now that I think of it, I don't think I've ever even bothered to search. The irony of this is that in the course of keeping myself at a distance from myself, I also manage to project a surface-appearance as an inviting friendship prospect.

You see...an unhealthy level of empathy for others is my preferred method of self-avoidance, and every aspect of my life...family status, social status, residence, and in particular my occupation, seems to reflect it. Everyone I've tried to explain it to has called me arrogant, and I will only concede to that, but the truth is I've managed to corrupt even this into a subversive form of self-annihilation. Being utterly J-retarded makes me potentially dangerous to myself and others. If the empowerment to do so somehow fell into my lap, I would free Charles Manson. Fortunately, I'm not goal-oriented in the direction of that sort of empowerment...my forté is more along the lines of incredibly stupid acts, like running across 5 lanes of speeding freeway traffic to rescue a cat stranded on the center divider.

Yes I did that. Kitty was less than appreciative at being swept up and carried across a busy freeway and communicated that to me in the form of chest and neck lacerations once we were back on the right shoulder, which is exactly what I deserved. Granted, he was in a perilous situation, but it's unlikely he would have attempted to bolt across on his own until an eventual break in traffic-flow long enough for him to safely do so presented itself.

It doesn't help matters that I'd rather hear the death rattle of my only child than ring for assistance, and forcing the stream to a halt is a little more flamboyant than I'm comfortable with, so I make due with the only other option...improvised dodging.

When I was younger I pursued toxic friendships in a very similar sense. The users, abusers, dealers, sadists, and other ethically-vacant faces inhabiting the blur of my former life were my catalysts of self-abuse. It seemed pointless to consider better options until around the time my eldest kid entered the picture. He was the pie in my face of thoughtless causes and effects.

Dr. Phil would diagnose my self-destructive proclivities as a disorder. I would diagnose Dr. Phil as lacking the remotest fucking clue of what 'disorder' is. The ex-junkie I tauntingly call 'wife', the pair of imperfectly budding future moral stains we created and carelessly allow to exist, and their sanity-challenged social leper of a cousin are my best friends, simply because they encourage me (each in his/er own distinct way) to pursue what I've wanted all along...a self-less destruction.

You can pay someone to tell you how tarnished you are, then pay someone else to abrade the stains away, but the resulting shine will always fade out. Friends don't see you in layers of imperfection to be sanded smooth, they see you as tarnish with a luster all it's own.

 

[Nocturne]

I find that friendships lack true passion or admirance. It's easier to keep to one self... As much problems as friendships create, they open minds to new dimensions. (Literally, of course)

 

[Zensunni]

I have had a best friend for 25 years and he is an INTP. Go figure.

 

[hablahdoo]

I'm not a cold person in any sense, but stress keeps me away from people who don't immediately understand me. You'll find me around those that follow some life independently and don't feel the compulsive urge to know everything about me. It's more interesting that way.

 

[Solitaire U.]

I look at friendship as a loyalty. Specifically when one is vulnerable. Say 7 persons plots against me. And one challenges the pack to help in my defense. That's friendship to me. I don't forget that. And they can count on me in return if they are in need of a friend. One should be innocent though. Like harassment.

So what it means is that one will give support if your odds are low to make it.

Yes. I do like to have people I can trust. Just me isn't all that much to put on the table.

Aye...the strongest friendships are those few that are forged directly in the path of a speeding bus.

 

[Yogi]

Friendship can take so many different forms here on our blue zoo. This one is appealing:

 

[Adamastor]

My definition of frienship

I suppose people have to interact with other...

(If I remember correctly Nietzsche said something like: "One has not the right to be alone", BTW that is a crappy translation of mine from a crappy portuguese translation of one of his books which I don't remember the name)​

And there problem arises "Have I the right to choose with who I want to interact? With who I want to be with? And do what I want with the chosen one?"

And when two individuals having to answer those questions interact, I think that friendship is one of the consequences of this encounter.

How much distance you are taking from the other, what you are showing and what you are not showing are things that may vary from person to person and is susceptible to the context, but in general friendship would be the situation where you sincerely engage in a relation of trust and dependence (sort of).

The same way there are people you trust, because you like them or by another reason, there are people you dislike, but by the social protocol you have to cope with, eliminate, take your distance or whatever, that is another type of 'consequence' which is not friendship, but something, let's call it 'hatreship'.
​

Are there different levels of friendship?

By this definition I would say that there are many levels of friendship, since a better friend would be the one you trust most, or something like that.

Do you need it or do you want it?

At some point in one's life, I believe everyone needs it.

I believe that even the strongest of man gets worn out or tired. And it's natural, or not intelligent to say the least, to make all of the world your enemy.

Although, I wouldn't say that enemies and friends are the only things that exists in the world, IMO the idea is enough to get the picture:

Since you are not alone, unless you are a Masochist or something, it would be prudent to have:

- less enemies, beings that want your fall (and you want theirs, I hope); - Hate (?)
- (doesn't really matter) neutrals, people you are in peaceful terms with; - Indifference (?)
- More friends, people you want their well-being and you want theirs. - Love (?)​

In my own experience, it's possible to live with about 0 enemies and 0 friends, when everything is neutral when seen by your eyes. That is a life immerse on your own ego, I see no problem with it, but personally I grew tired of it and started to look for enemies and friends, things get pretty interesting if you do so.

Well, that only happened because I figured I kinda liked people, but maybe that's just me...

 

[BigApplePi]

Adamastor. I don't know why I think of this, but there are things and there are people. Who would be surprised if I liked a thing, wanted to be around it, trusted it for constancy, and it befriended me by sharing it's "thinginess" with me. How are people different except in addition you befriend them and its contagious?

 

[Solitaire U.]

One of the dearest friends I've ever had...his full formal name was 1974 Ford Gran Torino Elite, but to me he was simply 'Car'. This was many years ago, at a time in my life when it seemed like I could not take a step without sacrificing something. This friend was for a long time my only focal point in a blurred world. Words cannot express the nature of this bond, for it was not a bond of words.

Ironically, that friend was kidnapped in the dead of night, and held for ransom, but the price demanded was far beyond my means. The notes, however, continued to arrive for some time. With each one, the demanded sum grew steadily larger, until finally the demands stopped coming altogether. I haven't seen or heard from that old friend since, and have no idea what became of him.

 

[Bird]

Burdensome.

 

[descendant]

I don't mind having many friends but I only keep them at work level
where I only talk to them about work, see them during workdays and have meals with them occasionally but not always

out of topic but I was wondering how fellow INTPs cope with your partners (husband/wife,/boyfriends/girlfriends)

 

[SpaceYeti]

Burdensome.

We're friends now.





Why are you such a burden?! We're not friends any more!

 

[final-dimension]

To me friendship is kinda weird,really it is. Although I would like to have real friends,I think it is just not working for someone like me. I have lots and lots of "friends" they value me and are faithful * to some degree*. I think when I am looking for a friend it has to be someone really really patient. It is not like I don't have emotions or anything,but I have a really hard time to show them...
Once a friend called me cold,she also said that she thinks it is really funny to see me very serious at times and then suddenly acting childish at other times. I am really confused.
To me a friend is someone,who I can tell about what I am thinking or feeling without regretting that you have told them.No one I have met really fits into this category of people.
Every time I say what I think I regret saying it,sometimes I even decided to stop talking forever. I think I am the one who has a problem,I think I need to see a doctor .
The day I find a real friend I will just be myself,I won't give them special treatment.Of course I will be there for them whenever they need me *although I do that with my current friends*. There was a boy at our university I met this year, he was loud. Well he talked to me a lot. One day he wanted to show me a song he had in his phone and I saw a picture with the words "don't make others a priority when they only make you an option". And I knew that he would never think of me as a friend just an option. That boy ones had a real problem with a group of guys who started some rumors about him,and he became really unpopular because of that. I was the only one who defended him,and well he became popular again.
I wish I had a real friend,but till now the only one who fits into my description is me. Cause I am the only one I won't regret it if I told them something...
And I regret saying anything to anyone other than me...
I am not crazy.

 

[BigApplePi]

To me a friend is someone,who I can tell about what I am thinking or feeling without regretting that you have told them.No one I have met really fits into this category of people.

Final-D. Guess what? You may have succeeded right here for all I know. (It helps to have content though.) You expressed your feelings and thoughts. If you have succeeded here, we have to figure out what the difference could be between here and outside IRL.

This may not be what you're saying, but I think friendship may be a verb, as in "to befriend" rather than a noun which is fixed. How about this: friendship is like a ballgame. The ballgame isn't any fun or help if it can't move. One has to play it to make it have importance. That is, it has to keep moving or potentially moving.

 

[final-dimension]

Final-D. Guess what? You may have succeeded right here for all I know. (It helps to have content though.) You expressed your feelings and thoughts. If you have succeeded here, we have to figure out what the difference could be between here and outside IRL.

This may not be what you're saying, but I think friendship may be a verb, as in "to befriend" rather than a noun which is fixed. How about this: friendship is like a ballgame. The ballgame isn't any fun or help if it can't move. One has to play it to make it have importance. That is, it has to keep moving or potentially moving.

Bravo,I liked the verb-idea. Well sometimes I do tell my friends about what I really think or feel,but I kinda always regret it, because most of them think afterwards I am weird or childish or whatever. So a real friend to me,someone who I can tell my thoughts and feelings without regrets+someone I would like to experience life with.
You could also call it a lifetime friend.
And thanks Pi.

 

[BigApplePi]

I don't mind having many friends but I only keep them at work level
where I only talk to them about work, see them during workdays and have meals with them occasionally but not always

out of topic but I was wondering how fellow INTPs cope with your partners (husband/wife,/boyfriends/girlfriends)

Cope, eh? In my case, it's my wife. We try to cope. I try to keep space for me and she her space. Then we share some stuff. This morning I wanted to take a trip to the compost container. But the path is the worst I've ever encountered since living here. Twenty inches of ice and snow with a two inch layer of ice on top. Treacherous. I didn't want to put on my shoeshoes so I used boots. I asked my wife to keep an eye on me as I walked down there. Fell three times. What happens is I step on ice and sink in. Then the next step one has to move forward but lifting the foot out from the previous step snags on the ice. Hard to keep balance and I even took a pole with me. The first time I fell my wife called out to ask if I was hurt. After that who wants to stand at the door watching someone walk for 20 minutes? I first had to make a path and then return for the compost. ... well you don't want to hear all that.

 

[BigApplePi]

Bravo,I liked the verb-idea. Well sometimes I do tell my friends about what I really think or feel,but I kinda always regret it, because most of them think afterwards I am weird or childish or whatever. So a real friend to me,someone who I can tell my thoughts and feelings without regrets+someone I would like to experience life with.
You could also call it a lifetime friend.
And thanks Pi.

Yer welcome final-D. Hang in there.

 

[SpaceYeti]

On that verb idea, I'd say "friendship" is the verb, whereas a friend is someone to whom you do the verb to.

Oh, sounds sexy.

Anyhow, I never regret telling anyone anything. I'm simply honest, so if I have something to regret it's actions I took, not the knowledge other people have of it. And if it's true, I would regret lying about it.

 

[Adamastor]

Adamastor. I don't know why I think of this, but there are things and there are people. Who would be surprised if I liked a thing, wanted to be around it, trusted it for constancy, and it befriended me by sharing it's "thinginess" with me. How are people different except in addition you befriend them and its contagious?

It really doesn't matter the 'thingness' of things, since what is important is satisfying the need to attach to some'thing'. And IMO this need to attach to something is inevitable.

Well, it's pretty weird, but according to what I've put before you really could befriend things, and that includes people. Even though, friendship sounds like something of the domain of humans (this sounds pretty egocentric, but, well, 'Human, All too human').

I cannot recall clearly examples or sources of what I am about to say, but I am pretty sure out there, more often than not, there are situations in life, in literature, etc, where people befriended unanimated objects (even though, it would be somewhat romanticized); or even situations more tangible like when one is much closer to some non-human living thing (say, a Dog). And my definition of friendship certainly, can deal with it...

 

[Lobstrich]

All I expect from a friend is honesty.

 

[BigApplePi]

All I expect from a friend is honesty.

What if your friend lied to you because they didn't want to hurt your feelings?

 

[Lobstrich]

What if your friend lied to you because they didn't want to hurt your feelings?

I'd get angry. Truth above anything for me "Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth.." If your opinion of me is not the truth, then what does it matter? Sure, it might be because you want to protect my feelings, or maybe because you just don't like telling people that you dislike them.
But what really hurts me is when people lie. I'd rather be told things straight up than have them hidden from me. There's literally nothing I hate more than dishonesty

 

[BigApplePi]

I'd get angry. Truth above anything for me "Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth.." If your opinion of me is not the truth, then what does it matter? Sure, it might be because you want to protect my feelings, or maybe because you just don't like telling people that you dislike them.
But what really hurts me is when people lie. I'd rather be told things straight up than have them hidden from me. There's literally nothing I hate more than dishonesty

My first reaction is I feel the same way. I want to be told the truth. I'm trying to think of a counterexample because I'm not convinced because I can feel how I've been lied to. Maybe the problem is lies are not lies. By that I mean, lies can be misstatements or opinions. Someone can be angry at me and what they say is subjective and I misinterpret it as objective. So I think they've lied when what they told me was how they felt. (That's called Fi I'm guessing.) If I misinterpret then I will risk replying back to my own false premise. Say I get as angry as you say. Then I'm trapped by my own anger. Not sure if this makes sense.

 

[Lobstrich]

My first reaction is I feel the same way. I want to be told the truth. I'm trying to think of a counterexample because I'm not convinced because I can feel how I've been lied to. Maybe the problem is lies are not lies. By that I mean, lies can be misstatements or opinions. Someone can be angry at me and what they say is subjective and I misinterpret it as objective. So I think they've lied when what they told me was how they felt. (That's called Fi I'm guessing.) If I misinterpret then I will risk replying back to my own false premise. Say I get as angry as you say. Then I'm trapped by my own anger. Not sure if this makes sense.

It's kind of making sense. But I'd still disagree. A lie is a lie. It's very simple, you tell something which is not.

 

[BigApplePi]

It's kind of making sense. But I'd still disagree. A lie is a lie. It's very simple, you tell something which is not.

Suppose someone tells me I'm the worst person in the world and they're sorry they ever met me. Would they be lying?