What is friendship and do you want it?

[BigApplePi]

Several people have brought up their isolation and their wondering about having friendship. This is usually not an easy endeavor for the introverted INTP.

Are there different kinds of friends? How would you define friendship and is it something you would value? If you had a friend how would you treat them? What would you do? If you have a friend, what do you do? If you've had a friend, what happened? How would you like friendship to be reciprocated?

As for me, I'll take as many friends as I can get, but I wonder about upkeep. I don't try very hard to keep them and wonder about their meaning.

Do you see different levels of friendship? Would you go all out to please them or would you demand qualifications? If so, what? Would you tell them you have such and such conditions?

What do you do if someone else approaches you offering friendship? Do you say, "get lost" or welcome them with open arms?

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Are there different kinds of friends? How would you define friendship and is it something you would value? If you had a friend how would you treat them? What would you do? If you have a friend, what do you do? If you've had a friend, what happened? How would you like friendship to be reciprocated?

Well of course there are different kinds of friends. Some people are just a certain way so your relationship forms around your compatibility. In high school I completely forgot what it meant it be a friend. I went through a tough time of social/emotional hardships and came out to realize that not everyone is perfect, even though I would really prefer to have it that way. I had an impractical idea of a true friend which has, by now, been done away with. With all friends I try to find common interests and just build off that. I need to spend a significant amount of quality time though, to be able to accept them into my mental world.

Do you see different levels of friendship? Would you go all out to please them or would you demand qualifications? If so, what? Would you tell them you have such and such conditions?

I treat friends differently according to our compatibility and time spent together, but everyone has the same chance of acceptance initially.

What do you do if someone else approaches you offering friendship? Do you say, "get lost" or welcome them with open arms?

Just don't expect me to make any first moves.

Old friends are welcomed with open arms, though most people seem quick to move on. To bring types into this discussion, I'd consider INxPs to be life long companions, no matter the distance.

 

[dark]

Well, coming from a somewhat introverted ENTP, or maybe shy would be the better term, friends to me seem to come and go. But my most fondest memories of friendship exist with the xNxx types. I can connect emotionally really well with xNFxs really good and can connect intellectually with xNTxs and sometimes xNFxs.

I rarely have S type friends for long, we tend to just go separate ways. They are on average to rude for me. N types tend to be nicer on average. Maybe the S types think the same about me, they also are the ones that call me weird, which I enjoy, so having them around especially if we connect via some form or another, is positive for my ego, and god(add your deity here) knows ENTPs have an ego .

And yes I want friend ship, I value it very much. Over almost anything. If you are my friend then you can count on me defending you to the end, especially in arguments. I have never been in a physical fight, but I almost was once in one because someone was picking on my introverted friend in high school, I was going to tear into him before about 3 other guys held me back, and the guy took flight down the stairs. That was probably my 2nd year in high school.

Think I gained a lot of respect with a lot of people when I did that, because everyone respected me my entire time in high school. I wasn't popular or anything, parents were to poor for me to fit in with the "cool" people, as if I would want to do that anyhow *shudders*. Maybe people thought I was psychotic haha, who knows.

 

[nexion]

I haven't defined friendship yet, but, going from pure impulse, I would say a friend is someone who actually (maybe at least somewhat?) understands. You people on this forum are, by that logic, more my friends than people I've known my whole life.

Do I want friendship? Yes, I think it would be nice. Mostly about three or four really close, really good friends who I can say anything I want to and not get judged or condemned. How many people do you imagine exist out there? I try my best to be that person, but I fail hard.

 

[Cavallier]

I sometimes think I see people through a glass wall. I can see them but never quite break all the way through the barrier to reach them. That might just be the human condition. I don't know. What I do know though is that despite this wall/resistance/whatever you call it people seem to like me. At the outset of meeting new people I learn what a person likes and does not like and I develop conversations along those lines. Having enough positive conversations builds up until one day the person thinks of you in a positive way and you become friends. I enjoy the conversations because I like talking about hobbies. I like certain people and I call these people friends. I care about their well being and I take appropriate steps to make sure they are healthy and happy (that can be harder than it sounds ).

I have a lot of friends I guess. I have co-workers that seem to really love me and I have people from former jobs/schools that stay in touch with me. I was a bridesmaid recently. I find that wherever I go I usually make a few positive acquaintances.

I just find it easy to give up these friends. I help my friends when they need it. I've driven friends to the doctor and I've given money to those that couldn't cover their rent. I help a lot of people move their stuff from apartment to apartment. I think I'm a good friend. Yet, when I think it's time to move on I do so with few regrets or even much sadness. Life comes and goes. I come and go with it. As I've said several times on this forum I worry about the fact that I am able to give people up so easily.

I feel like I am a well trained sociopath some days. Friends make life easier. It's a mutually beneficial sort of relationship.

 

[Audentia]

Well of course there are different kinds of friends. Some people are just a certain way so your relationship forms around your compatibility. In high school I completely forgot what it meant it be a friend. I went through a tough time of social/emotional hardships and came out to realize that not everyone is perfect, even though I would really prefer to have it that way. I had an impractical idea of a true friend which has, by now, been done away with. With all friends I try to find common interests and just build off that. I need to spend a significant amount of quality time though, to be able to accept them into my mental world.

I treat friends differently according to our compatibility and time spent together, but everyone has the same chance of acceptance initially.

Just don't expect me to make any first moves.

Old friends are welcomed with open arms, though most people seem quick to move on. To bring types into this discussion, I'd consider INxPs to be life long companions, no matter the distance.

Likewise.

 

[cheese]

True friendship always involves sex. There are lots of people I feel like I am true friends with, but they don't seem to realise the bit at the end. I'm working on it.

 

[nemo]

Are there different kinds of friends? How would you define friendship and is it something you would value? If you had a friend how would you treat them? What would you do? If you have a friend, what do you do? If you've had a friend, what happened? How would you like friendship to be reciprocated?

Do you see different levels of friendship? Would you go all out to please them or would you demand qualifications? If so, what? Would you tell them you have such and such conditions?

What do you do if someone else approaches you offering friendship? Do you say, "get lost" or welcome them with open arms?

IMO, there are distant friends, good friends and close friends. Distant = acquaintance/estranged. Good = good to have around but not terribly missed when absent. Close = people you'd trust enormously and can talk to and muck around with.

I'm lucky enough to have a few close friends, though I'd only really consider 2 of them to be the reeeeeeeeeally close ones. I'm not good with keeping up with friends I'm not thrown into contact with (i.e. I'm lazy!) and as a result some of my friendships suffer. An INTJ friend I used to be like sisters with is now not as close, because we go to different schools and I'm socially lazy. Then there are other friendships that pass on for no apparent reason other than the fact that people change. It makes me sad sometimes, but that's life!

I value friendship a lot. I wouldn't die without it - I was a loner for a very long time - but it's nice to be able to talk. I like talking, but because of various events in my life, I've become a quiet and reserved person on the outside. Still reserved on the inside, but not so quiet. My foremost aim with my friends is to see them happy. I'd go pretty far to please them, not shoe-licking, but just to see them laugh or smile... I have this thing that many of you will probably laugh at - a wish that everybody was happy. I know, naive, but still~!

Qualifications...ooh, this is a question for my chinese oral exam. I replied in awkward chinese to the teacher: my only requirement is a good heart - other than that, I'm not fussy. Only other preference - an appreciation for weirdness. And no, I wouldn't tell them this - IF YOU DON'T HAVE A GOOD HEART THEN YOU'RE NOT MY FRIEND GRR might be a bit off-putting.

If friendship was offered, I'd probably stay reserved for a bit, but lean towards acceptance. I'm probably more often the initiator than the receptor of friendship offers though! ^^

 

[BigApplePi]

Well of course there are different kinds of friends. Some people are just a certain way so your relationship forms around your compatibility. In high school I completely forgot what it meant it be a friend. I went through a tough time of social/emotional hardships and came out to realize that not everyone is perfect, even though I would really prefer to have it that way. I had an impractical idea of a true friend which has, by now, been done away with. With all friends I try to find common interests and just build off that. I need to spend a significant amount of quality time though, to be able to accept them into my mental world.

I find compatibility a tough word to relate to definition-wise. I'd say anything acknowledged in common (even if small) can make a "friendship." My high school friendships were a disaster. I lost all my junior high friends, commuted from home even for lunch and did no extra curricular activities.

I treat friends differently according to our compatibility and time spent together, but everyone has the same chance of acceptance initially.
Just don't expect me to make any first moves.

I've changed my isolating propensities a lot since then. First moves? The first mover risks rejection. I don't mind that because it doesn't have to be a heavy move. I would be glad to be your friend Icy, but how about, "friendship starts with friendly"? Common things are the hard part. They can happen by chance or deliberately.

Old friends are welcomed with open arms, though most people seem quick to move on. To bring types into this discussion, I'd consider INxPs to be life long companions, no matter the distance.

Yep. I like old friends. I think a strong reason is (1) they are friendly and (2) the right distance has already been set up.

 

[Bird]

I don't know how to tell if I'm friends with someone or not.

 

[JoeJoe]

True friendship always involves sex. There are lots of people I feel like I am true friends with, but they don't seem to realise the bit at the end. I'm working on it.

Yeah, well I'm not really into buttsex and blowjobs...

 

[Words]

Friends. Frankly. They are my tools of stimulation. If they don't serve well, I throw them away.

This is considering I can not value them. Once they take up part of my hard drive space, I become attached and the attachment itself I can consider "stimulation".

 

[BigApplePi]

True friendship always involves sex. There are lots of people I feel like I am true friends with, but they don't seem to realise the bit at the end. I'm working on it.

That explains a lot. Must be why she isn't a true friend.

 

[cheese]

What I mean is, true friendship to me involves the total cessation of boundaries, including physical/sexual ones. Why not make your friends happy, right? Especially if you're talking sexually compatible friends - a few friendly hugs and hey, presto...

Holding back just reinforces boundaries that no longer make sense.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I can't believe I forgot the girl I connected with near the end of school. She was a big part of me realizing that there was still hope in the world. For the first time in my life I had felt understood and I experienced the greatest friendship: pure childlike playfulness. Even though my feelings implied something more than being friends, I was perfectly satisfied with the way things were.

True friendship always involves sex. There are lots of people I feel like I am true friends with, but they don't seem to realise the bit at the end. I'm working on it.

Quite the requirement.
But should sex be due because you are friends or should friendship be due because you had sex?

I find compatibility a tough word to relate to definition-wise. I'd say anything acknowledged in common (even if small) can make a "friendship." My high school friendships were a disaster. I lost all my junior high friends, commuted from home even for lunch and did no extra curricular activities.

Not just interests, but lifestyles, it is can be a huge factor for tolerance. I lost most of my junior high friends also, some were even from primary/elementary. And again, after high school graduation, more people just fell off the map, due to my inability to keep up contact. But now I view it as a good thing. All people who never were truly committed aren't a burden anymore.

I am lucky though, I have reconnected with a few. One found me, an INTJ, another I sought out, an ENTP, one reminded me how much I was valued, an ISFJ and one I bump into occasionally, an INFP.

I've changed my isolating propensities a lot since then. First moves? The first mover risks rejection. I don't mind that because it doesn't have to be a heavy move. I would be glad to be your friend Icy, but how about, "friendship starts with friendly"? Common things are the hard part. They can happen by chance or deliberately.

I prefer spontaneous compatibility. Deliberate inquiry is okay too, but it is mostly full of small talk, so like I said, don't expect me to be proactive.

I don't know how to tell if I'm friends with someone or not.

Maybe because you are friends with either everyone or no one?

Friends. Frankly. They are my tools of stimulation. If they don't serve well, I throw them away.

This is considering I can not value them. Once they take up part of my hard drive space, I become attached and the attachment itself I can consider "stimulation".

What happens when one of the attachments turns out to be a backdoor trojan? Do you delete it or try to repair it? Would you ever reformat?

 

[cheese]

I can't believe I forgot the girl I connected with near the end of school. She was a big part of me realizing that there was still hope in the world. For the first time in my life I had felt understood and I experienced the greatest friendship: pure childlike playfulness. Even though my feelings implied something more than being friends, I was perfectly satisfied with the way things were.

Was this the ESxP girl? They have that effect on me as well - childlike playfulness, inducing romantic interest that's somehow able to be satisfied remaining friends.

Quite the requirement.
But should sex be due because you are friends or should friendship be due because you had sex?

Well the other thing about 'true friendship' is that it's very rare, and most people don't want to put down nearly as many barriers as required in this particular definition. You can still call another a friend, without them being a total and complete friend.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Was this the ESxP girl? They have that effect on me as well - childlike playfulness, inducing romantic interest that's somehow able to be satisfied remaining friends.

Yea, I tried to describe it without typing, but it's near impossible. You have to experience it for yourself to understand.

 

[BigApplePi]

IMO, there are distant friends, good friends and close friends. Distant = acquaintance/estranged. Good = good to have around but not terribly missed when absent. Close = people you'd trust enormously and can talk to and muck around with.

That's a good classification.

I'm willing to guess I have NO close friends unfortunately. I have a modest number of good friends and a good number of acquaintances. No one person is going to fulfill a close friendship for me ... unless I can count myself ... not that I can always trust myself, lol.

I'm lucky enough to have a few close friends, though I'd only really consider 2 of them to be the reeeeeeeeeally close ones. I'm not good with keeping up with friends I'm not thrown into contact with (i.e. I'm lazy!) and as a result some of my friendships suffer.

I'm going to do something weird. I will divide people into components of thought, feeling and action. I do that, I suppose, because I can be compartmentalized. My closest friend would be my wife because we share a lot of action in dealing with our environment. But my feelings seem to be bound up with my thinking ... not sure if that's true, but I'll try that out as a hypothesis. In that case I share thoughts with good friends, but not ALL thoughts. So they are good but not great friends. I don't have available any one person who will always be there to share thoughts. Since my feelings are bound up with my thoughts, there is no one person to share feelings with either. So with me, ideas come first; people second.

To contradict this I believe (I have to check this out) I'm drawn to J's. Some J's. They are the ones who will present ideas or a situation in a vivid fashion. They have depth in their area and this fascinates me. But unless they value me for helping clarify what they are doing, they are not going to be a close friend. And oppositely if they are too rigid in their beliefs I am not going to be their friend.

 

[gruesomebrat]

gotta love the derailment of train of thought... I'm confused, nemo

 

[nemo]

That's a good classification.

I'm willing to guess I have NO close friends unfortunately. I have a modest number of good friends and a good number of acquaintances. No one person is going to fulfill a close friendship for me ... unless I can count myself ... not that I can always trust myself, lol.

I'm going to do something weird. I will divide people into components of thought, feeling and action. I do that, I suppose, because I can be compartmentalized. My closest friend would be my wife because we share a lot of action in dealing with our environment. But my feelings seem to be bound up with my thinking ... not sure if that's true, but I'll try that out as a hypothesis. In that case I share thoughts with good friends, but not ALL thoughts. So they are good but not great friends. I don't have available any one person who will always be there to share thoughts. Since my feelings are bound up with my thoughts, there is no one person to share feelings with either. So with me, ideas come first; people second.

To contradict this I believe (I have to check this out) I'm drawn to J's. Some J's. They are the ones who will present ideas or a situation in a vivid fashion. They have depth in their area and this fascinates me. But unless they value me for helping clarify what they are doing, they are not going to be a close friend. And oppositely if they are too rigid in their beliefs I am not going to be their friend.

Your closest friend is your wife - but is she a close friend? (Sorry if I'm prying!)

Are there people that consider YOU to be their close friend, if even if you don't feel the same way? That's always an awkward situation, I feel, because you feel you -should- appreciate them more because they do you and yet you never saw them that way. It's nice though, to find out you're appreciated. Maybe there are some of your good friends out there that feel closer to you than you think!

Your 'thought feeling and action' division reminds me of all that advice you get on friendship - find people who have similar interests, make friends that you see a lot, etc. Could you say that if you become friends with someone based on one of the three, it would automatically develop, perhaps with time, and expand into the other divisions? E.g. A student becomes friends with a person in their History class. They proceed to share thoughts and feelings about stuff in their History class, which may/may not lead to the sharing of thoughts and feelings about other things, which, if shared, would lead to a stronger friendship. Or the division could work another way, in which the person initiating or having a friendship initiated on them will judge the new friend on their preference within those three parts - common actions, common thoughts or common feelings...

Hmm. The gradual progression to closeness in friendship is quite interesting! *goes and finds some links*

Spoiler

Cute stages of friendship: http://www.paradiseawaits.com/Ties3.html
Many different theories about friendship: http://changingminds.org/explanations/theories/a_friendship.htm
Five stages of friendship: http://ezinearticles.com/?Close-Fri...ng-lasting,-Intimate-Relationships&id=2070235 and http://everything2.com/title/William+Rawlins%27+Stages+of+Friendship

With the drawn to J thing, maybe it's just another result of the 'opposites attract' concept.

Funnily enough, of the two people that I would consider to be my closest friends, one is INTP and the other is ESFJ. And I am IxFP...interesting!

 

[nemo]

Especially if you're talking sexually compatible friends - a few friendly hugs and hey, presto...

Bahahahaha...I love your outlook, cheese!

What are you confused about, gru? If it's my thoughts, then that's perfectly understandable

 

[Ermine]

I sometimes think I see people through a glass wall. I can see them but never quite break all the way through the barrier to reach them. That might just be the human condition. I don't know. What I do know though is that despite this wall/resistance/whatever you call it people seem to like me. At the outset of meeting new people I learn what a person likes and does not like and I develop conversations along those lines. Having enough positive conversations builds up until one day the person thinks of you in a positive way and you become friends. I enjoy the conversations because I like talking about hobbies. I like certain people and I call these people friends. I care about their well being and I take appropriate steps to make sure they are healthy and happy (that can be harder than it sounds ).

I have a lot of friends I guess. I have co-workers that seem to really love me and I have people from former jobs/schools that stay in touch with me. I was a bridesmaid recently. I find that wherever I go I usually make a few positive acquaintances.

I just find it easy to give up these friends. I help my friends when they need it. I've driven friends to the doctor and I've given money to those that couldn't cover their rent. I help a lot of people move their stuff from apartment to apartment. I think I'm a good friend. Yet, when I think it's time to move on I do so with few regrets or even much sadness. Life comes and goes. I come and go with it. As I've said several times on this forum I worry about the fact that I am able to give people up so easily.

I feel like I am a well trained sociopath some days. Friends make life easier. It's a mutually beneficial sort of relationship.

I totally relate! The majority of my "friends" are acquaintances drawn to me because I'm... me. They view our relationship as being "close", and I enjoy it, but I just don't feel that close to anyone outside family to the point that I would be heartbroken not seeing them again. I'm also helpful just because I'm nice and people interpret it as special/genuine interest.

Perhaps my idea of friendship is too much to ask for anyone except my future boyfriends or spouse.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Full hugs please.

 

[BigApplePi]

Full hugs please.

This is what they do:

((((((((((((((EyeSeeCold))))))))))))))

 

[BigApplePi]

Have you ever been so terribly wounded that no amount of thought will get you out of it? You tell your story to someone and they say the same is with them and you realize you have a compatriot in feeling? Then you are their friend forever.

Where have a heard a story of someone who saves another's life? They are so grateful they are your friend likewise forever.

 

[Polaris]

True friendship always involves sex. There are lots of people I feel like I am true friends with, but they don't seem to realise the bit at the end. I'm working on it.

(ROFL........)

Now I understand why you're always so keen to take my grandmother for "drives".......

 

[Pepper]

S
Are there different kinds of friends?

In my mind and my experience, yes. Different people fulfill different needs at different times in life, not only in the mutual ability to give and take, but also circumstance.

How would you define friendship and is it something you would value?

I guess someone who cares about your well being for you and someone who accepts you and at least tries to understand you.

If you had a friend how would you treat them?

I suck at that, so I don't know. I try and be nice, but that's not really my thing.

What would you do?

Play bocce ball and drink beer?

If you have a friend, what do you do?

Usually irritate and frustrate them until they want to choke me out.

If you've had a friend, what happened?

I killed and ate them.

How would you like friendship to be reciprocated?

Drink with me, amuse me, and not choke me out.

Do you see different levels of friendship?

Yeah. At least a few.

Would you go all out to please them or would you demand qualifications?

I like to make people happy, so I usually try.

And fail.

If so, what?

What I would do? Try to not gun the bocce ball at their head, and likely fail.

Would you tell them you have such and such conditions?

If they weren't wearing a helmet? Probably.

What do you do if someone else approaches you offering friendship? Do you say, "get lost" or welcome them with open arms?

I wonder what's wrong with them and approach them with great caution until I figure out whether or not they are dangerously psychotic.
Then I ask them to be BFFs.

 

[Wizardry]

I've had really good friends before and even though it ended or we parted ways my feelings (once activated) never die. Once a person reaches my "friend" status I consider them very important and treasure sharing my time with them. Sucks when they leave though or they don't value me as highly. The best sort of friend is one that seems to reach inside my head effortlessly and the whole experience of talking to them seems magical.

 

[Anthile]

Friendship is a ship that never sinks.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Friendship is a ship that never sinks.

What happens when the friendship is titanic?

 

[Words]

What happens when one of the attachments turns out to be a backdoor trojan? Do you delete it or try to repair it? Would you ever reformat?

You replied, I don't know why I reply back. seriously.

Delete it. I always format. Actually, I'm not understanding your question. The thing is: Can you even edit/delete/repair attachments? Can you control them?

 

[nexion]

What happens when the friendship is titanic?

Avoid the iceberg. Otherwise, sinking is inevitable and there is no point in trying to stop it.

 

[Wizardry]

What happens when the friendship is titanic?

You always have the lifeboats. If you survive that phase you board a new boat with the same person. Or you just watch them drown with that haunting phrase "I'll never let go..." ringing in your ears.

 

[Da Blob]

Several people have brought up their isolation and their wondering about having friendship. This is usually not an easy endeavor for the introverted INTP.

Are there different kinds of friends? How would you define friendship and is it something you would value? If you had a friend how would you treat them? What would you do? If you have a friend, what do you do? If you've had a friend, what happened? How would you like friendship to be reciprocated?

As for me, I'll take as many friends as I can get, but I wonder about upkeep. I don't try very hard to keep them and wonder about their meaning.

Do you see different levels of friendship? Would you go all out to please them or would you demand qualifications? If so, what? Would you tell them you have such and such conditions?

What do you do if someone else approaches you offering friendship? Do you say, "get lost" or welcome them with open arms?

Hmmm! It could be appropriate to post some relevant quotes about friendship...

However, I define a friend as a piece of my Self. A person that I feel comfortable using the word, WE, to refer to. It is sad to think that some substitute sexual partners for Friends, to fill the void of WE. It is a desperate, but perhaps, necessary psychological tactic for some... However, friendship is actually an involved relationship that has to be constructed and tested over time - whereas sex involves little investment of time or constructive behavior.

I have found that few family members or relatives are actually friends and I really appreciate the few friends I share genetic material with. In the social chaos of this modern world, the role of Friend is disappearing, like many of the other 'traditional' social roles - like the Husband, Wife, Father and Mother roles. In fact, there is an entire industry of "Professional Friends" that that has been created to meet the increased demand for a shrinking supply of real Friends. It is quite laughable, in a sad sort of way.

Renting a Friend, by the hour, is now a part of everyday life for many and professional friends come in all shapes and flavors. I am a counselor, and better than most, because I know what my role and function actually is in a therapy session, it is to supply friendship first and advice secondly. There has been an ongoing debate as to whether psychology/psychiatric counseling actually does any good at all or whether it is all a complete scam. Those who make a living delivering such 'therapy' point to a study that showed, across the board, that two out of three clients self-reported improvement after counseling. However, Hans Eyesnick came along with a follow up study that showed that even more people self-reported improvement after conversations with a Trusted Friend about 'psychological' problem...

So why is real friendship so rare? To a great extent it is the outcome of advances in media. Virtually all media is targeted at the individual viewer, so that time spent with media is time spent alone. There really is no need to develop the social skills necessary to build and develop the communication and communion between friends in a therapeutic human relationship. Instead, nonhuman relationships are invested into...

 

[Stoic Beverage]

I'd say I have three "tiers" of friends, so to speak.
The third, and lowest, is really just the slightest step above the mere acquaintance. The kind of people you may chat with if you don't know the name of anyone else in the room. I don't really put much value on maintaining this type of friendship, or gathering friends of this type.
The second tier would be people I choose to surround myself with, and are around outside of school when possible. I value this type of friend highly, and have maybe six of this type.
The first tier is where a "best friend" would go. I haven't one, but I've met a person of this so-called "caliber". I just happened to move about a week after I met them. Without exchanging any contact info. (Stupid, stupid, stupid...)

 

[BigApplePi]

However, friendship is actually an involved relationship that has to be constructed and tested over time .

In the social chaos of this modern world, the role of Friend is disappearing, like many of the other 'traditional' social roles - like the Husband, Wife, Father and Mother roles. In fact, there is an entire industry of "Professional Friends" that that has been created to meet the increased demand for a shrinking supply of real Friends. It is quite laughable, in a sad sort of way.

Renting a Friend, by the hour, is now a part of everyday life for many and professional friends come in all shapes and flavors. I am a counselor, and better than most, because I know what my role and function actually is in a therapy session, it is to supply friendship first and advice secondly.

So why is real friendship so rare? To a great extent it is the outcome of advances in media. Virtually all media is targeted at the individual viewer, so that time spent with media is time spent alone. There really is no need to develop the social skills necessary to build and develop the communication and communion between friends in a therapeutic human relationship.

Da Blob. Thoughts on your friend observations. All seem to be true.

Is the traditional friendship more likely to turn up where the family is close knit and social groups are fixed rather than mobile? In this case people are thrust together, exchanges occur naturally where some of them may multiply so parties are mutually beneficial to each other and recognize each other as such. Friendships are more likely.

In this mobile and separated age, if that is what it is, each friendship can't be so likely. So as you say, the need to exchange, to be recognized and to interact with others looks for some other outlet. You mention:

1. Rent a friend - you will be recognized, can improve yourself, but it's one-way. You have to keep renting.
2. The media - you recognize others, can bring this info to share with acquaintances and can improve your knowledge.
3. What else?

At the risk of over-interpreting, what about bulletin board forums? Interaction is possible. One can interact and be recognized. It's 1-2 dimensional, not 3. It's crowded so individuals are diminished. There is lots of feedback. When it isn't crowded, feedback can collapse. One-on-one doesn't work unless it leads to 1-on-1 personal messages. Is this a different KIND of friendship? It's a friendship with a forum group, not an individual. Modest social skills ARE desirable, but they are minimal. Is this a new thing? What is missing? What benefits have I missed? What deficiencies are there?

 

[Da Blob]

Da Blob. Thoughts on your friend observations. All seem to be true.

Is the traditional friendship more likely to turn up where the family is close knit and social groups are fixed rather than mobile? In this case people are thrust together, exchanges occur naturally where some of them may multiply so parties are mutually beneficial to each other and recognize each other as such. Friendships are more likely.

In this mobile and separated age, if that is what it is, each friendship can't be so likely. So as you say, the need to exchange, to be recognized and to interact with others looks for some other outlet. You mention:

1. Rent a friend - you will be recognized, can improve yourself, but it's one-way. You have to keep renting.
2. The media - you recognize others, can bring this info to share with acquaintances and can improve your knowledge.
3. What else?

At the risk of over-interpreting, what about bulletin board forums? Interaction is possible. One can interact and be recognized. It's 1-2 dimensional, not 3. It's crowded so individuals are diminished. There is lots of feedback. When it isn't crowded, feedback can collapse. One-on-one doesn't work unless it leads to 1-on-1 personal messages. Is this a different KIND of friendship? It's a friendship with a forum group, not an individual. Modest social skills ARE desirable, but they are minimal. Is this a new thing? What is missing? What benefits have I missed? What deficiencies are there?

Well, yes an exchange of PMs adds a dimension to online relationships, there is less attention seeking and grandstanding in one-on-one conversations and some might be surprised at who on the forum i have had such exchanges with. It is just rather natural when addressing an audience, or a forum of observers, to put on a 'performance' of some type, that might not even reflect one's true opinions or views.

The destruction of the extended family, at least here in America, occurred in the aftermath of World War II. A social experiment was launched and a Consumer Republic, was fostered (foisted) by the ruling class. This initiative involved the creation of the small nuclear family, a transient lifestyle and the promotion of immediate gratification. Some think that the nuclear family is an old thing, but actually, such a social unit only seem to be around for a single generation, that of the Baby Boomers.

Of course, this 'modernization' of society destroyed all sorts of opportunities for human relationships - isolating family members from cousins, aunts and uncles etc. Also it was assumed that ambitious and compliant corporate lackeys would move whenever and where ever, their employers dictated - uprooting their families and destroying the "Home" with each move. This transient lifestyle, made profit for those who owned the corporations, but was very damaging, psychologically, to those employees and their 'nuclear' families, who had no permanent home - just a series of houses that were lived in...

And of course, the aforementioned media intrusion into private lives seems to have even further isolated family and friends from each other.

Traditional friendship was made possible in an atmosphere where it was possible to trust. One could trust friends - if they were going to be around one's entire life in one's community and long relationships can survive the stresses and strains that are involved in any human relationship. People learned how to work through problems with friends in relationships and grew, matured as social beings in the process.

I think that is one of the reasons people have so much trouble with intimate relationships, there simply is no experience or lessons learned from the mistakes made and corrected in long-term friendships such as misunderstandings, selfishness, seeming betrayals etc.

EDIT: BTW - A Consumer's Republic by Cohen is an interesting read - worthy of scanning at least...

 

[Methuselah]

There are definitely different levels of friendship. You have your acquaintances, satellite friends (who you only see once in an orbit), good friends, and best friends.

I always have to watch how many I have, as I don't have enough energy to maintain too many. Best friends are always good because by definition they recharge instead of drain you, but of course they are also very rare.

I spent a lot of time in my early to mid-teens friendless due to moving a lot and self-imposed social isolation, and it was the worst thing in the world. Seriously, any situation can be worse without good friends, and any situation can be made better with them.

 

[Da Blob]

BTW I posted this back in the Dark Ages

http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=1656

It is relevant to the discussion of friendship - at least tangentially. The eight dimensions of Human Relationships as defined by Josselson in The Space Between Us are also what often are the basis for friendship or for that matter lack of one or two can be the reason that some friendships fail to grow...

 

[subdude]

Friends are extremely important to me. No matter how much I love time alone---and I do like a lot of time alone, there doesn't seem to be any point to it if I don't have time to share life with others.

When it comes to choosing friends, I almost think it's more important to me that I be liked and be found interesting by the other person than that I like all of the characteristics of that person and find that person interesting. It feels very comforting and wonderful to be accepted. I have a lot easier time being myself around someone who accepts me for who I am than I do around someone whom I find interesting and stimulating yet who seems indifferent to me. I hate to make it sound as if I just want friends to stoke my ego, but hey, it's nice to be liked. In return, I try to be as loyal as I can, no matter how different that person is from myself.

One thing I find is that it's sometimes difficult for me to gauge how close someone is as a friend. I might have thought I was friends with someone, but that person might surprise me by treating me as just an acquaintance. On the other hand, I'm sometimes surprised by people who seem to care more about their relationship with me than I expected. I don't imagine any personality type perfectly reads how others feel about them, but I would guess it's more of a weakness of INTPs than it is for others.

Another thing about friendship---I often feel a bit sad about friendships that were once strong but that no longer serve any purpose, not because of any falling out but just because of time and distance. Like most good things in life, friendships require maintenance, and sometimes the maintenance isn't worth it. My Facebook profile is littered with friends who were once close and with whom I used to enjoy life. However, even though I could message them whenever I want, I really have nothing to say, and I am frankly not interested in their lives now. I care about them still, but not in a way that really matters. At best, I take ten seconds to type "Happy Birthday!" once a year or express that I "like" something they posted. If I knew they needed a friend, I would be happy to be there for them, but I know they've moved on, and so have I. Life is good for them without me, and my life is good without them. Even so, it's a truth I don't like to admit.

 

[BigApplePi]

Friends are extremely important to me. No matter how much I love time alone---and I do like a lot of time alone, there doesn't seem to be any point to it if I don't have time to share life with others.

When it comes to choosing friends, I almost think it's more important to me that I be liked and be found interesting by the other person than that I like all of the characteristics of that person and find that person interesting. It feels very comforting and wonderful to be accepted. I have a lot easier time being myself around someone who accepts me for who I am than I do around someone whom I find interesting and stimulating yet who seems indifferent to me. I hate to make it sound as if I just want friends to stoke my ego, but hey, it's nice to be liked. In return, I try to be as loyal as I can, no matter how different that person is from myself.

One thing I find is that it's sometimes difficult for me to gauge how close someone is as a friend. I might have thought I was friends with someone, but that person might surprise me by treating me as just an acquaintance. On the other hand, I'm sometimes surprised by people who seem to care more about their relationship with me than I expected. I don't imagine any personality type perfectly reads how others feel about them, but I would guess it's more of a weakness of INTPs than it is for others.

Another thing about friendship---I often feel a bit sad about friendships that were once strong but that no longer serve any purpose, not because of any falling out but just because of time and distance. Like most good things in life, friendships require maintenance, and sometimes the maintenance isn't worth it. My Facebook profile is littered with friends who were once close and with whom I used to enjoy life. However, even though I could message them whenever I want, I really have nothing to say, and I am frankly not interested in their lives now. I care about them still, but not in a way that really matters. At best, I take ten seconds to type "Happy Birthday!" once a year or express that I "like" something they posted. If I knew they needed a friend, I would be happy to be there for them, but I know they've moved on, and so have I. Life is good for them without me, and my life is good without them. Even so, it's a truth I don't like to admit.

subdude that is a post very well put and I share most of those feelings. Perhaps friends are an extension of oneself and one doesn't wish to have a part of oneself die. One wishes instead to extend oneself in an agreeable way and that it what friends do. If one has had a happy time and it doesn't last, that's the way it is. The nature of the situation says it won't last which doesn't negate its original value.

There is another condition which occurs. That is when one doesn't have a friend, perhaps a friend who doesn't cover a particular subject of one's interest. Then one feels loneliness. There is no one with whom to share and gain a perspective on that particular issue. As one who is often alone for self-imposed reasons, I attempt to do without but it doesn't always work. Not sure why.

 

[GYX_Kid]

you need to be able to trust them (in the most basic ways) and have them respect you (whatever you feel that entails). then, overall i basically look at everyone in terms of what their assorted tendencies seem to be (which is pretty normal i guess), i can be really versatile in the people i'll talk to. can't say i really get any feeling of warmth from a close relationship, though if one happens i get from it what i can. i just need to work on identifying more categories of people to have the motivation to be outgoing towards.

but my closest friends would most likely be my sense-stimulators and own creations...that can always be depended on

 

[gnome]

"Friends can help each other. A true friend is someone who lets you have total freedom to be yourself - and especially to feel. Or, not feel. Whatever you happen to be feeling at the moment is fine with them. That's what real love amounts to - letting a person be what he really is." - Jim Morrison

 

[Zeldon]

Rather then friendship, family seems nice. Most people don't bond beyond family anyways... All our social rituals reside within our family, if a person is isolated, then it is due to the fact that they did not come from a proper family for their personality. If a person does not have a proper family, then they will have to learn to be content with themselves, otherwise they will be subjected to the whims of others. This cannot be avoided...

 

[BigApplePi]

Rather then friendship, family seems nice. Most people don't bond beyond family anyways... All our social rituals reside within our family, if a person is isolated, then it is due to the fact that they did not come from a proper family for their personality. If a person does not have a proper family, then they will have to learn to be content with themselves, otherwise they will be subjected to the whims of others. This cannot be avoided...

What goes into a family? You've hit on something Zeldon. A family has a structure. It helps when a friendship has some sort of artificial (?) or natural (social) structure. Then when the friendship would naturally stray, it is held by the structure.

I can like somebody, but what do I do with that like? When there is something outside, just as this INTP forum is more than just people, one can fall back on that something.

 

[Zeldon]

What goes into a family? You've hit on something Zeldon. A family has a structure. It helps when a friendship has some sort of artificial (?) or natural (social) structure. Then when the friendship would naturally stray, it is held by the structure.

I can like somebody, but what do I do with that like? When there is something outside, just as this INTP forum is more than just people, one can fall back on that something.

It can be said that personal ties with a stranger would have to be spiritual. If this is not the case, then personal bonding seems highly unlikely.

 

[Zeldon]

"Friends can help each other. A true friend is someone who lets you have total freedom to be yourself - and especially to feel. Or, not feel. Whatever you happen to be feeling at the moment is fine with them. That's what real love amounts to - letting a person be what he really is." - Jim Morrison

My ideal friend would save me from myself. If I do something stupid, they will reprimand me. Its no good you know... Intuition is not easily handled right...

 

[Dreamweaver]

- I've always believed in the statement that by the end of my life I'll have a very little amount of true (life long) friends remaining and I am perfectly fine with that premise.

- I enjoy having about a hand full (to ten?) people I consider friends. Some of them will be referred to as a best friend, occasionally. The rest of the people I know are referred to as "people I know" and they're included in certain social activities. Then remains my family.

- I consider friendship to be the basis of each successful relationship and can't stand the idea of having intimacy with someone without being good friends at the same time. It seems unnatural to me and/or pathetically whimsical.

- I never forget individuals whom I've developed a friendship with, no matter the circumstances. It is a unique and genuine experience of natural, innocent closure to me.

- Romanticizing friendships can be a good way to kill the idea or feeling of loneliness. It's not a substitute for a different kind of relationship though.

Nice thread.

 

[Solitaire U.]

Renting a Friend, by the hour, is now a part of everyday life for many and professional friends come in all shapes and flavors. I am a counselor, and better than most, because I know what my role and function actually is in a therapy session, it is to supply friendship first and advice secondly. There has been an ongoing debate as to whether psychology/psychiatric counseling actually does any good at all or whether it is all a complete scam.

I wonder...how do you get around the Dominant/Subordinate and/or Pro/Client barriers founding such relationships? 'Rent-A-Friend' seems to contradict the fundamental principle on which 'friendship' is based. At the risk of appearing offensive...what do you do? Invite them home to dinner with the wife and kids? Stroll with them out in plain sight upon the campus green?

The reason I ask is because I find the topic of overcoming traditional barriers of friendship highly interesting on a personal level. You see...my 'best friend' at present is a nine year old boy with Childhood Onset Schizophrenia who also happens to be my nephew, and also happens to reside with my wife and 2 sons as a primary family member.

Perhaps it's relevant to mention that this has all come about thanks to (and I reiterate 'Thank You') the failure of both his purported 'Professional Friends' (one of whom apparently opted for the 'sexual relationship' stopgap *case pending, of course*) and his former primary family (one of whom attempted to demonstrate his friendship by taking the boy by the shoulders and shaking violently in a vain attempt to rattle loose the 'crazy part').

 

[Solitaire U.]

I don't know how to tell if I'm friends with someone or not.

You have more friends than you will ever know....